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History and tradition? Better invite Preston North End then!
I’m sorry but you have to earn your place in a competition. If you weren’t good enough over the last 3-4 years you don’t deserve to be there. That is the basic fundamental principle of the football league. Leicester for example have a much better track record than Arsenal or Spurs over the last 5 years. Should they be there?

Agreed.

I am not - in any way - defending Arsenal's disgraceful and disgusting action, or the outrageous and entitlement and greed that is driving the idea of this horrible super league.

And agree re Preston North End - or, for that matter, Aston Villa.
 
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I think today has shown that this is an occasion where fans of these 6 football clubs have put any rivalries aside and are completely united with the same opinion. Bobby Robson’s famous quote is never more true!

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Here’s an idea for you, instead of “3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, and 0 for a loss”, let’s have “3 points for a win, 0 for a draw and 0 for a loss.” Draws are (and should be) pointless.
 
BBC journalist Dan Roan has provided some background on the driving motivations behind the Super League, citing an inside source. Perhaps most notable among them:

"According to source, some of those involved in ESL call traditional supporters of clubs “legacy fans” while they are focused instead on the “fans of the future” who want superstar names."

I think this is a very astute and prescient observation on the part of the breakaway clubs. A global fan base that is purely glory-hunting and desires, above all else, to see superstars clashing are not concerned with what is actually happening in the club's home city in the real-world. Prices can be raised so that only the wealthy can afford to go to matches - who cares? You've got the whole world to draw on for paying fans. TV packages will carry a very 'premium' price. Being a 'true' season ticket-holding Real Madrid fan is no longer just a point of pride, but an exclusive status symbol like designer clothing or luxury cars. Or a corporate perk, since even larger swathes of hospitality will be devoted to corporate customers. Imagine if every ticket in the stadium cost at least a thousand Euros a pop? What if "authentic" kits cost 500 Euros ('non-authentic' but still 'official' shirts would go for 120 and still get snapped up briskly...the unwashed masses still want to show their support). The 'Premier' League will have the most ironic league name on the planet.

The potential for profit is truly staggering; you can see why they are doing this. And also why it's rotten to the core.
 
Here’s an idea for you, instead of “3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, and 0 for a loss”, let’s have “3 points for a win, 0 for a draw and 0 for a loss.” Draws are (and should be) pointless.

Too binary, and too, dare one say, American in some ways.

I'm European, and I like the idea where it can be recognised that sometimes, one team is not better than the other, or that two teams can share the spoils, and that this is recognised in the scoring system - of both goals, and of the points awarded for the game.

For, a successful match can rely on superb defensive play - defence is a skill,too - and, if you can stop the opposing team from expressing themselves, that skill should also be recognised.
 
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Too binary, and too, dare one say, American in some ways.

I'm European, and I like the idea where it can be recognised that sometimes, one team is not better than the other, or that two teams can share the spoils, and that this is recognised in the scoring system - of both goals, and of the points awarded for the game.

For, a successful match can rely on superb defensive play - defence is a skill,too - and, if you can stop the opposing team from expressing themselves, that skill should also be recognised.
Absolutely agree. A draw can be just as thrilling as a win if it’s a last minute goal. We play Chelsea next. Given our injuries, I’d settle for a draw!
 
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Too binary, and too, dare one say, American in some ways.

I'm European, and I like the idea where it can be recognised that sometimes, one team is not better than the other, or that two teams can share the spoils, and that this is recognised in the scoring system - of both goals, and of the points awarded for the game.

For, a successful match can rely on superb defensive play - defence is a skill,too - and, if you can stop the opposing team from expressing themselves, that skill should also be recognised.
Let's be honest: This is an American concept. Americans have an outsized influence on the ESL.

The ESL want to be the NBA or the NFL.
 
Let's be honest: This is an American concept. Americans have an outsized influence on the ESL.

The ESL want to be the NBA or the NFL.
It may be an American concept, but European elites have been lusting after it for a very long time. The NFL works the way it does because 1) it is a legal monopoly and 2) because decades ago the sport of (gridiron) football was totally redesigned for television and the closed monopolistic league format. There are no independent governing bodies. There are no competing leagues. There is no international game. Just the NFL, Tom Brady, $15 light beers, fighter jets buzzing the stadium with red white and blue smoke trailing, cheerleaders below gyrating wildly to the latest pop tunes, fireworks - and the Super Duper Bowl.

The European Super League, should it come into existence, could very possibly evolve into a unique sport. If you no longer require "legacy fans" or "legacy" organizing bodies (FIFA, UEFA), who says you need "legacy" rules?
 
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It may be an American concept, but European elites have been lusting after it for a very long time. The NFL works the way it does because 1) it is a legal monopoly and 2) because decades ago the sport of (gridiron) football was totally redesigned for television and the closed monopolistic league format. There are no independent governing bodies. There are no competing leagues. There is no international game. Just the NFL, Tom Brady, $15 light beers, fighter jets buzzing the stadium with red white and blue smoke trailing, cheerleaders below gyrating wildly to the latest pop tunes, fireworks - and the Super Duper Bowl.

The European Super League, should it come into existence, could very possibly involve into a unique sport. If you no longer require "legacy fans" or "legacy" organizing bodies (FIFA, UEFA), who says you need "legacy" rules?
There is very little in the US I think we should try and emulate in Europe. But top of that list is your sport. The very top of that list is American Football. A truly awful sport. Definitely not for me.

And for all the football chat on here tonight, not one mention of Leeds vs Liverpool (currently 1-1). Yes it might not contain any of the top four playing each other, but of course it wasn’t that long ago this was one of the top games each season because Leeds were one of the top four or six.
And that’s the point. The top 6 is not static. It’s fluid. It is ever changing and evolving. Yes some teams are always there but others come and go.
 
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I wonder how much an influence the epidemic has had on the development of the 'Super League Concept'?

...and to my British friends about foreign owners of your sports teams, couldn't your British government block the sales
of the teams?
 
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Liverpool drew 1-1 with Leeds in the Legacy League.

There is very little in the US I think we should try and emulate in Europe. But top of that list is your sport. The very top of that list is American Football. A truly awful sport. Definitely not for me.

Actually, American professional sport has developed some very effective, if rather complex, methods for sharing wealth within a league in order to maintain competitive parity. Why would such a capitalistic country develop something so socialist, you ask? Well, it's not so much sharing wealth as divvying up the spoils, since all American pro leagues are closed shops, so everyone gets a huge slice of the pie. So think less Carl Marx and more J.P. Morgan. Among American soccer fans, there is no debate more bitter and yet more enduring than the the one discussing the merits of the promotion/relegation model.

But while the closed-shop model has been alien to European football (till now), there really is some merit in the US sport-style wealth-sharing mechanisms that could be adapted to Europe in a beneficial way - especially if they were combined with some of the better features of, say, German club ownership models.

All this to say, there are ways to reform football that make the game both more competitive and financially fairer. Ways that would probably lead to tangible benefits from the very top to the very bottom. But in order for that to happen the kleptocrats sucking in the lion's share of the wealth, who also happen to make the rules, would have to be convinced, or more likely forced, to give up their golden fountain.
 
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More Money is a huge factor and these EPL clubs will get more money over the 149-142ml they received in 2017.

during the 1990's we would watch uefa and English premiere matches with the extra charge in north America vis cable tv. ESPN would televise the big UEfA club games and sports pubs would always show the middle tier matches.
we could always see a match, which a few sports fans here knew or cared about.
then WHOMP! around 2009 there were packed bars, kits everywhere and the sport took off big time
Then NBC sports picked up the games and charged extra to watch
huh?
we are already paying for.....


In Iran, many fans had hidden satellites and watch every Manchester United match during the early 2000's according travel writer Colin Thrubron's "Shadow of the Silk Road". Now the leagues are receiving a beIN sports package from this country.

and do they clubs need fans in the stands or care?
nope!
not in these leagues thanks to these huge TV rights!
 
I wonder how much an influence the epidemic has had on the development of the 'Super League Concept'?
Unsure. But two things stand out. First, the pandemic probably underscored the value to clubs of TV viewership and the global fan base as the "fans of the future," NOT the local or even regional fan base. Second, when no local fans are in the stadium (or even allowed to congregate outside!) clubs are insulated from fans' responses to unpopular moves on the part of the ownership.

So, if they could just do away with these pesky demanding local 'legacy' fans and their complaints about high ticket prices and offshore ownership, and replace them with more affluent non-local fans that care only about the club bringing in superstar players and high profile matches and trophies - and are willing to pay higher prices for a 'premium' experience...hmmm...and they can't even protest in the stadium right now...
 
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It may be an American concept, but European elites have been lusting after it for a very long time. The NFL works the way it does because 1) it is a legal monopoly and 2) because decades ago the sport of (gridiron) football was totally redesigned for television and the closed monopolistic league format. There are no independent governing bodies. There are no competing leagues. There is no international game. Just the NFL, Tom Brady, $15 light beers, fighter jets buzzing the stadium with red white and blue smoke trailing, cheerleaders below gyrating wildly to the latest pop tunes, fireworks - and the Super Duper Bowl.

The European Super League, should it come into existence, could very possibly evolve into a unique sport. If you no longer require "legacy fans" or "legacy" organizing bodies (FIFA, UEFA), who says you need "legacy" rules?
Yup. That's super NFL. The difference between NFL football and college is pretty large because NFL changes the rules every year.
 
Yup. That's super NFL. The difference between NFL football and college is pretty large because NFL changes the rules every year.
The college super schools will attempt this model. Break away from the NCAA and go it alone for more money.
 
I think this is the point (my emphasise):
Throughout our history the Club has always strived to move both Everton and the game forward. But we have always done so within the parameters of the pyramid structure which maintains the principles of open competition and sporting merit.
 
I hate to sound cynical, but I suspect a lot of other club owners who are currently against this would be enthusiastically for it if they had been invited to join. But I don't want to detract from the Everton message, which I heartily agree with.

Sigh. It's just all so depressing. FSG has made some blunders before but always retreated in the face of fan pressure. But I fear there's no coming back from this. Liverpool need new owners, even if it means competitive oblivion for another 30 years. I'm not a 'fan of the future.' I care less about trophies and superstars and Liverpool's next official noodle partner, and more about the sport as a whole, and clubs as long-term community institutions - NOT as vehicles for corporate PR, investment, and profit. This ESL crap is pure poison.
 
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I wonder how much an influence the epidemic has had on the development of the 'Super League Concept'?

......
An interesting question, as I think that it has facilitated - in the complete absence of fans - a mental move away from having to consider (or take into consideration) the needs, or wants of (local) fans (or other inconvenient concepts such as tradition, or geography, or rootedness in the community) when deciding on best possible future plans (from the perspective of revenue generation) for the team.

The pandemic showed club owners that they could forego gate receipts entirely as a source of revenue, - and that teams could play and generate revenue in the absence of crowds

Prior to the pandeic, crowds were important because the "atmosphere" of the stadium with fans on match day was something that could be marketed as part of the "experience", and, I would argue, that fans mattered more for "atmosphere" than for monies made from gate receipts.

But, the pandemic has demonstrated that they don't matter at all, - not economically, (gate receipts), not for "tradition, experience, atmsphere" (which was their key remainig role pre-pandemic) and, therefore, can easily be dispensed with.

In other words, it has served to sever (to an even greater extent) whatever slim ties still remained between teams and their (local, community based fans, fans based in the region, city, town - or country - where the team plays), and has allowed club owners to dispense with fans - and disregard what they say and what they think - entirely.

Deeply depressing.

Elsewhere, something that would have generated headlines and endless excited commentary, less than twenty years ago, the fact that The Special One (Mr Mourinho) has been (inevitably) fired - or sacked - by Spurs has hardly made a ripple.

Yes, the Super League is a bigger story, but, even without that, Mr Mourinho himself - whose best days as a manager are well behind him - has become little more than a bitter foot-note in the chronicle or saga of this season.
 
European Super league sounds like a brilliant idea ! Count me in ! Just need decide which team to support that will win it 🤔
This topic is already being discussed in the Football 2020-2021 Thread.

I recommend moving this thread there.

However, for what it is worth, I think it is an appalling idea, one grounded in greed, and motivated by entitlement, selfishness and a profound unfairness.
 
But, the pandemic has demonstrated that they don't matter at all, - not economically, (gate receipts), not for "tradition, experience, atmsphere" (which was their key remainig role pre-pandemic) and, therefore, can easily be dispensed with.

In other words, it has served to sever (to an even greater extent) whatever slim ties still remained between teams and their (local, community based fans, fans based in the region, city, town - or country - where the team plays), and has allowed club owners to dispense with fans - and disregard what they say and what they think - entirely.

There is hope. Clubs have made a power play because they think they can get away with it. But fans will be back in stadiums eventually, and they still pay to watch football on TV and buy merchandise. They also have a voice on social media.

There is no more powerful group in the sport than the fans. IF the fans were to truly unite over a cause they could send even the most powerful owners' cabals running for the hills within a week. But they never have been able to unite over anything for long, which is precisely what the owners count on.

This is especially true for the 'big six.' If their supporters' associations can mount a real and sustained opposition campaign to this, and carry a substantial portion of the local and regional fan base with them, they can quash the English clubs' involvement in the ESL fever dream. Put club sponsors on the spot. Mount a media campaign. Talk about inequality in the game and how it hurts everyone. Promote the community aspects of the sport and show how this destroys them. Show how the ESL removes the competitive element from the game. Expose the flagrant lies of Florentino Perez for what they are.

Elsewhere, something that would have generated headlines and endless excited commentary, less than twenty years ago, the fact that The Special One (Mr Mourinho) has been (inevitably) fired - or sacked - by Spurs has hardly made a ripple.

Yes, the Super League is a bigger story, but, even without that, Mr Mourinho himself - whose best days as a manager are well behind him - has become little more than a bitter foot-note in the chronicle or saga of this season.
From Mourinho's perspective, the worst thing about his sacking is that it wasn't front page news for long due to the ESL catastrophe. The man loves attention.
 
Football now is a show business. Anyone saying that this is the sport for the poor people "and stolen by the rich people" is living in the past.

As long as my FC Barcelona gets the incredible amount of money that the Superleague members will get, to mount another great team, I honestly do not care, do not give a damn about the other teams and what UEFA/FIFA thinks about. UEFA and FIFA are corrupt. They're just getting a bit of their own medicine. I prefer to have my team winning and rich enough to mount the best team, instead of being a demagogue and say that "I care about the football for the people", because I honestly do not care, all I want is my team winning all tournaments. If the Super League is the way for this to happen and put UEFA/FIFA in their place, then I am 100% with the Super League.

The 2024 proposed new format for the UCL is a complete stupidity. I thought that these rules were made by someone from the brazilian football confederation (CBF), given how ridiculous the ranking thing and the criteria to qualify were thought. I laughed real hard at these rules, so it is not hard to think they are one of the reasons why the (long thought through the years) Super League was launched after this.

I expect the 12 clubs to go ahead with the threat and UEFA/FIFA will have to concede, or else their main competitions will lose a lot of value ($$$). They have more to lose here than the 12 clubs.

I'm standing 100% with the Super League.

Hopefully the south american clubs will one day follow suit and do the same to give the middle finger to the Conmebol confederation, thanks to their terrible administration of the south american tournaments and the Libertadores Cup. The big south american clubs REALLY need the money to be able to mount teams to match the quality of the european teams football, in the last 20 years, there was a huge abysm of difference between the football in both "worlds".

Since 1998, when I saw a highly qualified Vasco da Gama side play on attack against Real Madrid (a very memorable game that we lost but could well have won had we scored the bag of goals we lost in that game, and even Real Madrid players acknowledged it), I have not seen a south american club play against the european teams with the same mentality, they know that they will lose if they do, and play like a small team parking the bus there. Clear examples are Internacional vs Barcelona, Corinthians vs Chelsea. This is a clear indication of the huge economic and sporting difference between these clubs.

FIFA, Conmebol and UEFA are the cancer in football, not the 12 Super League clubs.
 
Well, well, 14 Premier League teams have expressed no desire to join the European Super League.
Things are about to get rather interesting, with the Premier League looking to do whatever it can to stop this creation.

Right, let's go!
 
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