The Car Mod Thread...

[MatthewLTL]

Oh @bunnspecial , he got you!


1. I have a 2009 535xi with over 100k miles. My car is worth somewhere on he lower end of 15-20k, if I'm lucky. I could substitute a 2009 Honda Civic and it would be the same story. Keep in my the repair costs of a BMW are profoundly higher than an econobox and they're far more complicated. So it's all relative.

If I break a headlight assembly- it's not just a headlight. It's an swiveling HID light that turns with the steering wheel. So although my car may cost 2x as much, the headlight costs 5x as much as a Honda. Even something generic bumper is probably 2-3x more expensive. Labor 1.5x-2x I would guess too if at a dealer.

2. A life long injury like death? Look at the statistics. Here is a study from the British Medical Journal- one of the top medical journals in the world- one of the top 5. This is is their 2002 opinion on airbags. It's an interesting read, but they favor airbags nonetheless: http://m.emj.bmj.com/content/19/6/490.full Note they also expect future airbag technology, which we now have, will further improve the findings they already have found.

If airbags are more dangerous than accidents, wouldn't it make sense they'd not be in cars? Why not put a retractable bayonet in the steering wheel instead?

3. Yes, That's how everyone's insurance works.



1. What is the difference between AN ass (if you want be nit picky) and being sarcastic? One cannot be a sarcastic ass

1.5. Collision or comprehensive? (You're the one that wanted to play the nit picky game). I hope you pay no more than $250 for your deductible. Can you ever get body parts for your car? It seems like a waste to have collision on your car btw.

2. The same way you replace anything on a car. You take off the old one and put on a new one. It just so happens to be probably the worst repair on a car you can do, because the entire body of the car and all the mechanics must come off. Much like if you had to replace the foundation of a house.

1. no more like back, shoulder, elbow, neck and rib injuries that airbags cause.
2. Yes, you can get body parts online. I know it's a waste, but the insurance company wont drop the collision coverage, we tried. Plus with the payout I would get from having collision, I could buy a new used car.

I'm surprised he even has insurance in the first place...

I thought he was too good for that.

Again, legally speaking, not my car, not my insurance policy. It will soon be my car and ill soon get my own policy on it however.

One of my friends keeps driving her car with no insurance and i hound her on that she says she cant afford it i say then don't drive, she won't listen (like a typical woman) LOL

 

[yg17]

she won't listen (like a typical woman) LOL

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

[bunnspecial]

What is that?

Since no one has answered this one, I'll bite.

An agreed value policy is a policy where you and the insurance company mutually agree on a value for the car rather than basing it on the book value of the car.

Agree value policies are usually used for classic cars-where the price is somewhat volatile-as well as for heavily modified/custom cars where the value is higher than the book value would suggest.

The MG(which I don't even have in my possession yet) is insured at $6K because that's what I'm paying for it. After I put wire wheels on it and do some other work I'm likely going to raise that to somewhere around $9K or $10K because realistically that's what it would raise the value to, although I may need an appraisal to get that.

 

[A.Goldberg]

1. no more like back, shoulder, elbow, neck and rib injuries that airbags cause.
2. Yes, you can get body parts online. I know it's a waste, but the insurance company wont drop the collision coverage, we tried. Plus with the payout I would get from having collision, I could buy a new used car.

Again, legally speaking, not my car, not my insurance policy. It will soon be my car and ill soon get my own policy on it however.

One of my friends keeps driving her car with no insurance and i hound her on that she says she cant afford it i say then don't drive, she won't listen (like a typical woman) LOL

1. Did you read the article? Try it again. No more of those injuries are caused with airbags than without. Meaning they don't cause the damage- if anything it's seatbelt or the crash. I'm sure you'd prefer not to have a face though? Please recite those stats to me...

My sister is a reconstructive maxillofacial oral surgeon and my mother is an orthopedic surgeon. I assure you, I'd rather have a broken rib or arm or dislocated shoulder than having to have my skull/mouth/jaw reassembled.

I'd also prefer not to have part of a steering wheel where my prefrontal cortex is supposed to be. I'm one for keeping my cognition intact.

2. If you didn't pay for your monthly premiums or the comprehensive collision, you'd probably be closer to buying a new car.

3. When the car becomes yours you are legally required to insure it. Legality means nothing to you though and like you've stated, you are incapable of causing or receiving and accident. I assume you'll be one the reasons why other people have to buy uninsured motorist insurance.

4. Women don't typically listen? Here we go again with the stereotypes. What's more interesting to me is the irony of your statement of "not listening".

 

[D.T.]

Since no one has answered this one, I'll bite.

An agreed value policy is a policy where you and the insurance company mutually agree on a value for the car rather than basing it on the book value of the car.

Agree value policies are usually used for classic cars-where the price is somewhat volatile-as well as for heavily modified/custom cars where the value is higher than the book value would suggest.

The MG(which I don't even have in my possession yet) is insured at $6K because that's what I'm paying for it. After I put wire wheels on it and do some other work I'm likely going to raise that to somewhere around $9K or $10K because realistically that's what it would raise the value to, although I may need an appraisal to get that.

Yeah, I had this on my Supra as it had pretty significant investment in modifications (I submitted invoices, etc.) I recall, the "show car" classification also meant super limited mileage/year, had to be kept in a secured, fully enclosed structure (i.e., a garage ), etc.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I'm pretty sure BMWs are econoboxes in our part of town

I feel like your part of town has all the BU/BC kids with Maseratis and Porsches. My part of town closer to Chesnut Hill has all the older people with $2.5m+ houses... Cougars with Bentleys, men in mid-life crisis with Aston Martins & Ferarris, and young soccer moms with Range Rovers and GL's. I think the common thread is 20-35 year olds with G63's.

 

[2298754]

I feel like your part of town has all the BU/BC kids with Maseratis and Porsches. My part of town closer to Chesnut Hill has all the older people with $2.5m+ houses... Cougars with Bentleys, men in mid-life crisis with Aston Martins & Ferarris, and young soccer moms with Range Rovers and GL's. I think the common thread is 20-35 year olds with G63's.

I think this might be a pretty accurate description of Brookline, but you have to sprinkle in some Lamborghinis here and there.

I was at the Street in Chestnut Hill a few days back. Every other car was a Range Rover or Cayenne

 

[MatthewLTL]

Since no one has answered this one, I'll bite.

An agreed value policy is a policy where you and the insurance company mutually agree on a value for the car rather than basing it on the book value of the car.

Agree value policies are usually used for classic cars-where the price is somewhat volatile-as well as for heavily modified/custom cars where the value is higher than the book value would suggest.

The MG(which I don't even have in my possession yet) is insured at $6K because that's what I'm paying for it. After I put wire wheels on it and do some other work I'm likely going to raise that to somewhere around $9K or $10K because realistically that's what it would raise the value to, although I may need an appraisal to get that.

so how would such a policy's rates be based upon a regular policy? what about lightly modified cars like with LED upgrades DRLs and eventually Fog Lights?

1. Did you read the article? Try it again. No more of those injuries are caused with airbags than without. Meaning they don't cause the damage- if anything it's seatbelt or the crash. I'm sure you'd prefer not to have a face though? Please recite those stats to me...

My sister is a reconstructive maxillofacial oral surgeon and my mother is an orthopedic surgeon. I assure you, I'd rather have a broken rib or arm or dislocated shoulder than having to have my skull/mouth/jaw reassembled.

I'd also prefer not to have part of a steering wheel where my prefrontal cortex is supposed to be. I'm one for keeping my cognition intact.

2. If you didn't pay for your monthly premiums or the comprehensive collision, you'd probably be closer to buying a new car.

3. When the car becomes yours you are legally required to insure it. Legality means nothing to you though and like you've stated, you are incapable of causing or receiving and accident. I assume you'll be one the reasons why other people have to buy uninsured motorist insurance.

4. Women don't typically listen? Here we go again with the stereotypes. What's more interesting to me is the irony of your statement of "not listening".

1. Ask my mom about that one, and ask my friend who got momentairly knocked unconscience when her airbags went off after being run off the road..... Oh, she got a hairline fracture in her spine too.

not sure what any of the medical mombo means, and im not buying a new car. if it came to selling a car, the Impala would be the one to go, go figure.

and as for you number 4, nope not a stereotype, MEN not listening is the stereotype, i state truths thats it.

 

[bunnspecial]

so how would such a policy's rates be based upon a regular policy? what about lightly modified cars like with LED upgrades DRLs and eventually Fog Lights?

In the case of my MG there is no "regular" policy since there's not a KBB value for it(although there is an NADA value). Basically it's worth what I tell them it's worth-and short of an appraisal at this point it's what I paid for the car. As I do some work on it to my taste, I likely will be able to add the value of the parts pretty easily to the declared value.

For reference, it made about a $20/year difference to drop the declared value from $7000 to $6000-again based on purchase price.

On a 15 year old econobox with $20 in LEDs, you could probably get away with a declared value of around $40-50 depending on how much gas is in the tank.

 

[A.Goldberg]

so how would such a policy's rates be based upon a regular policy? what about lightly modified cars like with LED upgrades DRLs and eventually Fog Lights?


1. Ask my mom about that one, and ask my friend who got momentairly knocked unconscience when her airbags went off after being run off the road..... Oh, she got a hairline fracture in her spine too.

not sure what any of the medical mombo means, and im not buying a new car. if it came to selling a car, the Impala would be the one to go, go figure.

and as for you number 4, nope not a stereotype, MEN not listening is the stereotype, i state truths thats it.

I have interpreted the medical mumbl jumbo for you though

Well for the airbags deployed appropriately in this crash, she must have had some some speed behind her and an object to hit causing impact- tree, wall, the ground if a trench on the side of the road, etc. The impact alone could cause that damage. Older women are also at risk for osteoporosis. You would also have to question if she had an existing, unnoticed fracture worsened by the accident.

Loss of consciousness can be caused by the impact as well, or the extreme fear of the accident. Massive amounts of epinephrine (adrenaline) produced by fear will over-excite the vagus nerve, which in short causes the blood pressure in your brain to drop and redirect to your gut, causing one to loose consciousness (this can be exacerbated with some medications). It's also why people feel nauseous/vomit when nervous or scared, just the blood supply to the brain isn't affected great enough to pass out.

I obviously don't know the details of the accident and sincerely sympathize how your mom's health has been affected. I'm just giving other things to think about.

When I was in high school lacrosse my back was destroyed (slight fracture, 2 herniated discs, and permanent nerve damage) with the impact of my own body weight of my upper body landing incorrectly after jumping a few inches off the ground and being illegally back-checked with a lax stick. Basically I landed with all the force in my mid back in a contorted position. It doesn't take much...

 

[MatthewLTL]

I have interpreted the medical mumbl jumbo for you though

Well for the airbags deployed appropriately in this crash, she must have had some some speed behind her and an object to hit causing impact- tree, wall, the ground if a trench on the side of the road, etc. The impact alone could cause that damage. Older women are also at risk for osteoporosis. You would also have to question if she had an existing, unnoticed fracture worsened by the accident.

Loss of consciousness can be caused by the impact as well, or the extreme fear of the accident. Massive amounts of epinephrine (adrenaline) produced by fear will over-excite the vagus nerve, which in short causes the blood pressure in your brain to drop and redirect to your gut, causing one to loose consciousness (this can be exacerbated with some medications). It's also why people feel nauseous/vomit when nervous or scared, just the blood supply to the brain isn't affected great enough to pass out.

I obviously don't know the details of the accident and sincerely sympathize how your mom's health has been affected. I'm just giving other things to think about.

When I was in high school lacrosse my back was destroyed (slight fracture, 2 herniated discs, and permanent nerve damage) with the impact of my own body weight of my upper body landing incorrectly after jumping a few inches off the ground and being illegally back-checked with a lax stick. Basically I landed with all the force in my mid back in a contorted position. It doesn't take much...

being T-boned by a car barreling 60MPH out of a parking lot, would of resulted in less injuries than the long term injuries she suffers from 15 years later, if it was in the 1990 Celebrity Wagon rather than a 1997 Mercury Tracer Wagon. 90s air bags are deadly, well known by statistics, just like waist seatbelts in the back seat of cars were deadly when they 1st became standard. It's not unheard of for a seatbelt to almost cut someone completely in half, it's also not unheard of for an airbag to decapitate a driver.

Airbags can also cause heart problems:

Authors of a new review are warning cardiologists and other health professionals of "hidden injuries" that can arise from automobile airbags [1]. Even though airbags save lives and reduce injuries, they can also cause cardiac and pulmonary injuries and death.

Cardiac injuries can happen due to airbag deployment even with no visible injury at the time of presentation to the hospital, and this may include serious cardiac injuries," lead author Dr Rami Khouzam (University of Tennessee Health Science Center, Memphis) explained to heartwire in an email. The main types of cardiovascular injuries following airbag deployment are aortic transection, tricuspid-valve injury, right atrial rupture, cardiac contusion, MI, aortic-valve avulsion, cardiac tamponade, and hemopericardium, he noted.

and there is this bit on how airbags cause hearing problems too:

Airbags are clearly successful at mitigating injury severity during motor vehicle accidents. Deployment unfortunately has introduced new injury-causing mechanisms. A retrospective review of 20 patients who sustained otologic injuries resulting from airbag inflation was conducted. The most common symptoms were hearing loss in 17 (85%) and tinnitus in 17 (85%). Objective hearing loss was documented in 21 of 24 (88%) subjectively affected ears; this included unilateral and bilateral sensorineural, unilateral conductive, and mixed hearing losses. Ten patients (50%) had dysequilibrium. Four subjects (20%) had a tympanic membrane perforation; each required surgical closure. Ear orientation toward the airbag was found to be associated with hearing loss (P = 0.027), aural fullness (P = 0.039), and tympanic membrane perforation (P = 0.0004). A wide variety of airbag-induced otologic injuries occur and may have long-term sequelae. It is important for health care personnel to be aware of these potential problems.

Should I mention the Takata recall that killed at least 4 people?

 

[A.Goldberg]

being T-boned by a car barreling 60MPH out of a parking lot, would of resulted in less injuries than the long term injuries she suffers from 15 years later, if it was in the 1990 Celebrity Wagon rather than a 1997 Mercury Tracer Wagon. 90s air bags are deadly, well known by statistics, just like waist seatbelts in the back seat of cars were deadly when they 1st became standard. It's not unheard of for a seatbelt to almost cut someone completely in half, it's also not unheard of for an airbag to decapitate a driver.

Airbags can also cause heart problems:

and there is this bit on how airbags cause hearing problems too:


Should I mention the Takata recall that killed at least 4 people?

60mph is certainly enough damage to severely hurt someone! 5mph causes whiplash.

Heart problems primarily happen in people without seatbelt, people who are abnormally small, and who are too close to the steering wheel.

Back to the argument of the trade off between cost and benefit. The number of lives saved and injury prevented far exceeds the number of people killed or injured from airbags alone.

60mph... She's lucky to be alive with or without airbags!

 

[MatthewLTL]

60mph is certainly enough damage to severely hurt someone! 5mph causes whiplash.

Heart problems primarily happen in people without seatbelt, people who are abnormally small, and who are too close to the steering wheel.

Back to the argument of the trade off between cost and benefit. The number of lives saved and injury prevented far exceeds the number of people killed or injured from airbags alone.

60mph... She's lucky to be alive with or without airbags!

After seeing 1st hand what airbags did to my mom, friends, and my sister, I'll take my chances without. That, and the fact I have seen aftermath of my car hitting a tree head on and no deployment.

 

[2298754]

After seeing 1st hand what airbags did to my mom, friends, and my sister, I'll take my chances without. That, and the fact I have seen aftermath of my car hitting a tree head on and no deployment.

It's the airbags that caused these "problems" to your family and friends. It's the POS cars they drive. The ones with questionable repairs over the years.

 

[MatthewLTL]

It's the airbags that caused these "problems" to your family and friends. It's the POS cars they drive. The ones with questionable repairs over the years.

Look all over the internet. There is pages upon pages of injuries CAUSED by airbags!. Here is a example:

A girl was left blind after an airbag inflated and hit her in the face during a horrific car crash.

Kelly Green was a passenger in her father’s car days before her 16th birthday when it hit a pothole, collided with the central reservation and flipped on to its roof.

Both the driver and passenger airbags inflated on impact, but while her father Geoff walked away from the crash with just cuts and bruises, Kelly was left with devastating injuries to her face.

She had to be cut from the family’s BMW 3 Series saloon and was taken to hospital for surgery.’

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT

Kelly has been told the vision in her right eye had gone for good but there was a small chance the sight in her left eye will return one day

Blinded: Brave Kelly Green is learning Braille and how to use a cane after an airbag inflated directly in her face

Horrific: This picture taken shortly after the accident shows Kelly's terrible injuries after the airbag inflated in her face


She has now had five operations, but doctors say she will never see from her right eye again and there is only a slim chance of regaining the sight in her left.

She is learning Braille and touch-typing, and is trying to walk with a cane.

The family from Eckington, near Sheffield, have contacted solicitors.

Kelly’s mother, Bev, 49, said yesterday: ‘You don’t think an airbag could cause as much damage as this.

Both of the airbags went off in the crash, and the one in front of Kelly hit her straight in the eyes.

Aftermath: Kelly was a passenger in this series 3 BMW, pictured shortly after the accident

The car hit a pothole in wet weather and crashed into the central reservation before flipping on to its roof


‘She will definitely not get her sight back in the right eye and her left eye doesn’t look promising.

‘She will be having further surgery and we are hoping there could be a chance that one day she will regain the sight in that eye.’

Neighbours, family and friends are all rallying round to raise funds for specialist equipment.

Mrs Green added: ‘Our lives have been turned upside down but Kelly’s positive attitude is keeping us going. It hasn’t affected her. She is still the same, the only difference is she can’t see.’

Her father, a 47-year-old postman, added: ‘Her face was a complete mess afterwards. The impact pushed her right eye back into the socket.

‘But amazingly we survived when we could easily have been killed.’

Kelly said: ‘I was upset when I was told I’d lost my sight. I thought people wouldn’t talk to me. But I want people to know I haven’t changed. I have just had to adjust to everything, I’m still the same girl and I’m not going to give up.

‘Some things are a bit harder but I’m getting used to using my cane now.

‘I am still going to school but I am hoping to go to college and then do a masseuse course because it’s something I can do with my hands.’

need i bring up more articles?

 

[A.Goldberg]

Look all over the internet. There is pages upon pages of injuries CAUSED by airbags!. Here is a example:

need i bring up more articles?

Look up lives saved by airbags. Or statistics. Or consider that the girl could have been DEAD had it not been for the airbag in her "horrific" accident.

‘But amazingly we survived when we could easily have been killed.’

One example out of millions does not equate to a universal truth. Again, this is not a scientific report. Did she have a seatbelt, was she too close to the steering wheel (it wasn't her car did she neglect to adjust the seat), did she have her arms on the wrong position on the steering wheel (i.e. did she cross her arms or one hand at 12:00)

If one persons Daewoo exploded and killed people would you assume all Daewoos will explode?

If I had two suitcases and I was freely giving you one... One of them had a 1/100 chance of containing $1m, the other has a 99/100 chance of $1m, which would you pick? (Keep in mind it's random, so I'm not trying to trick you).

If you look at the stats, you will see that with airbags, fatalities and injuries have decreased, and continue to decrease as more airbags are added. It's a pretty clear correlation...

Here's another one- if someone at a cheeseburger and drove 80mph into a wall and died, would it be fair to assume the cheeseburger killed them? My answer is not unless you find the evidence and rule out any other possibilities.

 

[D.T.]

Look up lives saved by airbags. Or statistics. Or consider that the girl could have been DEAD had it not been for the airbag in her "horrific" accident.

One example out of millions does not equate to a universal truth. Again, this is not a scientific report. Did she have a seatbelt, was she too close to the steering wheel (it wasn't her car did she neglect to adjust the seat), did she have her arms on the wrong position on the steering wheel (i.e. did she cross her arms or one hand at 12:00)

If one persons Daewoo exploded and killed people would you assume all Daewoos will explode?

If I had two suitcases and I was freely giving you one... One of them had a 1/100 chance of containing $1m, the other has a 99/100 chance of $1m, which would you pick? (Keep in mind it's random, so I'm not trying to trick you).

If you look at the stats, you will see that with airbags, fatalities and injuries have decreased, and continue to decrease as more airbags are added. It's a pretty clear correlation...

Here's another one- if someone at a cheeseburger and drove 80mph into a wall and died, would it be fair to assume the cheeseburger killed them? My answer is not unless you find the evidence and rule out any other possibilities.

Hahaha, just stop, I'm trying to get some work done (then why am I reading MR ...? )

I love it, one or two observations and some anecdotal stories from "the internet" vs. the 100K+ data points in modern traumatic injury surveillance, which says otherwise.

Well, at least this thread clarified that a kid in Rochester, MN knows more than the collective PhDs involved in this sort of research. I've got a PhD buddy working on a TBI thesis, maybe he needs some help.

 

[MatthewLTL]

Look up lives saved by airbags. Or statistics. Or consider that the girl could have been DEAD had it not been for the airbag in her "horrific" accident.

might as well be dead. What kind of life is it for someone to go BLIND (AT 16!) from an airbag? I am talking about INJURIES (which you seem to think is impossible because airbags are "nothing but good") Not deaths. Look at it this way... would she be blind if the airbag DIDNT go off? most likely NOT, banged up, a few broken bones maybe but not BLIND.

You might find comfort in a brick wall smacking you in the face at 200MPH, but I don't I've seen 1st hand what airbags do I HAVEN'T seen 1st hand however, a single situation where a person walked away from a bag deployment without internal injuries.

I never said airbags DIDN'T prevent deaths, I said Airbags cause injuries more often than not.

 

[MatthewLTL]

If one persons Daewoo exploded and killed people would you assume all Daewoos will explode?

I wouldn't, but you probably would.

 

[2298754]

@A. Goldberg

Let's spend this weekend disabling the airbags on our BMWs. I'll bring the bagels from Kupel's. Clearly they're pretty useless and will make me go blind!

 

[A.Goldberg]

Hahaha, just stop, I'm trying to get some work done (then why am I reading MR ...? )

I love it, one or two observations and some anecdotal stories from "the internet" vs. the 100K+ data points in modern traumatic injury surveillance, which says otherwise.

Well, at least this thread clarified that a kid in Rochester, MN knows more than the collective PhDs involved in this sort of research. I've got a PhD buddy working on a TBI thesis, maybe he needs some help.

This way of getting out extra energy. I spend half my day reading clinical trials and formulating opinions on medical treatments. A lot of time the best practices have not been determined, especially in complex situations, because specific studies do not exist. New studies come out every week. New drugs come out routinely. I get to piece the puzzle together.

might as well be dead. What kind of life is it for someone to go BLIND (AT 16!) from an airbag? I am talking about INJURIES (which you seem to think is impossible because airbags are "nothing but good") Not deaths. Look at it this way... would she be blind if the airbag DIDNT go off? most likely NOT, banged up, a few broken bones maybe but not BLIND.

First, you might rather be dead than blind, but this young woman has decided to take her disability in stride. If you read, or skimmed, the comprehensive article from the British Medical Journal, you would have read...

In a retrospective review of United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) data from 1980 to 1994,there were 618 reported injuries, of which 42% affected the face, 33% the upper limb, and 9.6% the chest. The most important finding, however, was that 96% of all injuries were classified as minor.

In 14 years there were 618 reported airbag related injuries (granted, not as many cars had airbags, but still, this is 1994, and substantial improvements have been made to airbags in that time). Again, keep in mind, a scratch on the face isn't as bad as dying or having a steering wheel break your face, or getting ejected through the windshield.

In regards to blindness, according to this case report, which cites other studies, "airbags reportedly cause only 3% of all automobile crash related ocular injuries", in other words 3% eye injuries in car crashes are related to airbags, the other 97% are related to the crash itself. It cites vehicle parts (most commonly glass) do the most eye damage. It also says that Bilateral ocular injuries (eye injuries to both eyes) are "uncommon" and have "good visual outcomes". The relevant suggestion by reviewing multiple studies is to "advised to avoid sitting too close to the dashboard or sleeping while seated in the front passengers’ seat".

Below is another study by the NHTSA, citing all reported airbag injuries from 1990-2007. In the 17 year period, there were 284 total confirmed airbag-related deaths and 12 unconfirmed (this includes drivers, passengers, children, whether they had seat belts on). The total number of lives saved is estimated to be 24,334. The total number of drivers who survived with a life threatening injury who wore a seatbelt were 2 and total drivers who died were 27. The same information for passengers were 5, and 5 respectively. To summarize the children's data (as well as the adult passengers and drivers), the overwhelming majority who suffered death/serious injury were not seat belted or using proper restraint.

You might find comfort in a brick wall smacking you in the face at 200MPH, but I don't I've seen 1st hand what airbags do I HAVEN'T seen 1st hand however, a single situation where a person walked away from a bag deployment without internal injuries.

I'm not sure why you don't consider the vehicle slamming into something causes injury in itself. Internal injuries in my experience are usually caused by seat belts. Take away the seat belts, and you're hitting the dashboard and/or flying out the windshield, if head on (when front airbags deploy). Seat belt statistics are very clear. If I sneeze on you, my snot is hitting you at 200mph, but you won't die. If I drove a car 200mph into you, you will most certainly be dead. Why Force = Mass x Acceleration. Something with a bigger mass will have a greater force. Greater force = greater chance of damage. Again, you're assuming a broken rib is worse than dying... which isn't how 99% of the world considers clinical outcomes. If someone had cancer would you give them a drug that could save their life but make them nauseous and make their hair fall out... or just euthanize them so they don't have to deal with the side effects?

Lastly, your experience (and perhaps mis-concluded information) do not represent the overall chances of injury/survival. So perhaps this is just a philosophical difference.

I never said airbags DIDN'T prevent deaths, I said Airbags cause injuries more often than not.

Ok... but that's not what the information says either. And if it were would you rather have a broken body part or be dead?Airbag + Seatbelt - According to the 1994 study...
42% reduction in skull injury
70% reduction in facial injury
No increase of chest injury
Increases in arm/shoulder injuries, but appear to be seat belt related

I wouldn't, but you probably would.

I would assume because no one bought them in the Western world and there are essentially none on the road-- so there is probably a reason for that. I would say you have shown many examples of making vast generalizations based on limited information...
1) Airbags are bad
2) Women don't listen
3) Fords don't start in cold weather
4) All GM vehicles all have electrical/battery problems
5) All Smartphone users are lazy and no one has a valid use for one
...

So my point is, for your own safety- again serious injury or death, rethink your own self concluded statistics. So if you don't want to go blind, I'd suggest driving only with your windows open... which is a whole new danger (my buddy got hit by another driver with the window open and the side mirror snapped off and superficially slit his neck open- crazy!?)

 

[MatthewLTL]

This way of getting out extra energy. I spend half my day reading clinical trials and formulating opinions on medical treatments. A lot of time the best practices have not been determined, especially in complex situations, because specific studies do not exist. New studies come out every week. New drugs come out routinely. I get to piece the puzzle together.



First, you might rather be dead than blind, but this young woman has decided to take her disability in stride. If you read, or skimmed, the comprehensive article from the British Medical Journal, you would have read...

In 14 years there were 618 reported airbag related injuries (granted, not as many cars had airbags, but still, this is 1994, and substantial improvements have been made to airbags in that time). Again, keep in mind, a scratch on the face isn't as bad as dying or having a steering wheel break your face, or getting ejected through the windshield.

In regards to blindness, according to this case report, which cites other studies, "airbags reportedly cause only 3% of all automobile crash related ocular injuries", in other words 3% eye injuries in car crashes are related to airbags, the other 97% are related to the crash itself. It cites vehicle parts (most commonly glass) do the most eye damage. It also says that Bilateral ocular injuries (eye injuries to both eyes) are "uncommon" and have "good visual outcomes". The relevant suggestion by reviewing multiple studies is to "advised to avoid sitting too close to the dashboard or sleeping while seated in the front passengers’ seat".

Below is another study by the NHTSA, citing all reported airbag injuries from 1990-2007. In the 17 year period, there were 284 total confirmed airbag-related deaths and 12 unconfirmed (this includes drivers, passengers, children, whether they had seat belts on). The total number of lives saved is estimated to be 24,334. The total number of drivers who survived with a life threatening injury who wore a seatbelt were 2 and total drivers who died were 27. The same information for passengers were 5, and 5 respectively. To summarize the children's data (as well as the adult passengers and drivers), the overwhelming majority who suffered death/serious injury were not seat belted or using proper restraint.


I'm not sure why you don't consider the vehicle slamming into something causes injury in itself. Internal injuries in my experience are usually caused by seat belts. Take away the seat belts, and you're hitting the dashboard and/or flying out the windshield, if head on (when front airbags deploy). Seat belt statistics are very clear. If I sneeze on you, my snot is hitting you at 200mph, but you won't die. If I drove a car 200mph into you, you will most certainly be dead. Why Force = Mass x Acceleration. Something with a bigger mass will have a greater force. Greater force = greater chance of damage. Again, you're assuming a broken rib is worse than dying... which isn't how 99% of the world considers clinical outcomes. If someone had cancer would you give them a drug that could save their life but make them nauseous and make their hair fall out... or just euthanize them so they don't have to deal with the side effects?

Lastly, your experience (and perhaps mis-concluded information) do not represent the overall chances of injury/survival. So perhaps this is just a philosophical difference.


Ok... but that's not what the information says either. And if it were would you rather have a broken body part or be dead?Airbag + Seatbelt - According to the 1994 study...
42% reduction in skull injury
70% reduction in facial injury
No increase of chest injury
Increases in arm/shoulder injuries, but appear to be seat belt related


I would assume because no one bought them in the Western world and there are essentially none on the road-- so there is probably a reason for that. I would say you have shown many examples of making vast generalizations based on limited information...
1) Airbags are bad
2) Women don't listen
3) Fords don't start in cold weather
4) All GM vehicles all have electrical/battery problems
5) All Smartphone users are lazy and no one has a valid use for one
...

So my point is, for your own safety- again serious injury or death, rethink your own self concluded statistics. So if you don't want to go blind, I'd suggest driving only with your windows open... which is a whole new danger (my buddy got hit by another driver with the window open and the side mirror snapped off and superficially slit his neck open- crazy!?)

You are talking about OBSOLETE data from 1980-1994 and 1990-2007. Why do you keep bring up airbag deaths? I said INJURIES, My friend got her spine fractured and got knocked out from smashing the winder with her head! Airbags don't do jack **** for you in a rollover, most cars on the road are OLDER cars that dont HAVE curtain airbags and even curtian airbags wouldnt stop you from getting ejected in a rollover nor do frontal bags prevent a unbelted person from flying out the windsheild. Airbags are a SRS device, By themselves they do next to nothing SEAT BELTS are the actual life-saver, Airbags would just minimize your injuries in a severe crash. Airbags save lives in SEVERE/HIGH SPEED crashes. But in LOW SPEED crashes, they do more harm than they solve.

#5 is still true, 95% of "smartphone" owners could get by with a simple phone, based upon what they ACTUALLY do on it.
#4 i never said electrical issues.

you dont need "Statistics" when you have first hand experence saying otherwise.

You think that 16yo girl or her family though about "Statistics" after she was blinded?
Do you think anyone who got injured either minorly or severely, thought about "Statistics"?
Do you think the owners and victims of "GM Battery Drain" thought about how little or how much it happens?

In ALL of these examples, people believe on FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE not some ******** statistics. Do you honestly think someone who got badly injured by an airbag would EVER want to be in front of one again? Must I bring up the Takata recall again? That recall is just an EXAMPLE, one of many.

 

[A.Goldberg]

You are talking about OBSOLETE data from 1980-1994 and 1990-2007. Why do you keep bring up airbag deaths? I said INJURIES, My friend got her spine fractured and got knocked out from smashing the winder with her head! Airbags don't do jack **** for you in a rollover, most cars on the road are OLDER cars that dont HAVE curtain airbags and even curtian airbags wouldnt stop you from getting ejected in a rollover nor do frontal bags prevent a unbelted person from flying out the windsheild. Airbags are a SRS device, By themselves they do next to nothing SEAT BELTS are the actual life-saver, Airbags would just minimize your injuries in a severe crash. Airbags save lives in SEVERE/HIGH SPEED crashes. But in LOW SPEED crashes, they do more harm than they solve.

#5 is still true, 95% of "smartphone" owners could get by with a simple phone, based upon what they ACTUALLY do on it.
#4 i never said electrical issues.

you dont need "Statistics" when you have first hand experence saying otherwise.

You think that 16yo girl or her family though about "Statistics" after she was blinded?
Do you think anyone who got injured either minorly or severely, thought about "Statistics"?
Do you think the owners and victims of "GM Battery Drain" thought about how little or how much it happens?

In ALL of these examples, people believe on FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE not some ******** statistics. Do you honestly think someone who got badly injured by an airbag would EVER want to be in front of one again? Must I bring up the Takata recall again? That recall is just an EXAMPLE, one of many.

1. The data is not obsolete. If anything there is a downward trend in injuries.

2. Go back and read my post, it appears you skipped 1/2 of it. I mentioned injuries many times.

Also, what do you think causes death? Could it be injury?

3. Perhaps your friend's injuries were a result of her massive car slamming into another large object with a significant amount of speed.

4. How about this- you look up the information on side airbags since I've been doing all the work. I think you'll find a 36-52ish percent reduction in death depending on car vs. SUV. I'd say on the contrary, that is NOT "jack ****"

"Research shows that side curtain airbags are very effective at reducing injury risk in side crashes,"

5. The 2014 standards of side airbags are required to mitigate ejection by covering a significant enough portion of the window. "Research shows that side curtain airbags are very effective at reducing injury risk in side crashes,"

6. Seatbelt are not as effective without airbags though. And you're right, you have to wear a seatbelt for airbags to be effective. Seatbelt are not as effective as seatbelts + airbags and still have better outcomes overall than airbags alone.

7. I don't think you realize how vital statistics are to the world you live in. We'd literally still be in the Stone Age.

8. The Takaka recall is interesting. How many people died? 8 or something? How many airbags are affected? MILLIONS. The recall is not because of the inherent danger of airbags, but because of a design flaw.

 

[LumbermanSVO]

You are talking about OBSOLETE data from 1980-1994 and 1990-2007...

Seems like that data covers your two cars.

 

[MatthewLTL]

1. The data is not obsolete. If anything there is a downward trend in injuries.

2. Go back and read my post, it appears you skipped 1/2 of it. I mentioned injuries many times.

Also, what do you think causes death? Could it be injury?

3. Perhaps your friend's injuries were a result of her massive car slamming into another large object with a significant amount of speed.

4. How about this- you look up the information on side airbags since I've been doing all the work. I think you'll find a 36-52ish percent reduction in death depending on car vs. SUV. I'd say on the contrary, that is NOT "jack ****"

"Research shows that side curtain airbags are very effective at reducing injury risk in side crashes,"

5. The 2014 standards of side airbags are required to mitigate ejection by covering a significant enough portion of the window. "Research shows that side curtain airbags are very effective at reducing injury risk in side crashes,"

6. Seatbelt are not as effective without airbags though. And you're right, you have to wear a seatbelt for airbags to be effective. Seatbelt are not as effective as seatbelts + airbags and still have better outcomes overall than airbags alone.

7. I don't think you realize how vital statistics are to the world you live in. We'd literally still be in the Stone Age.

8. The Takaka recall is interesting. How many people died? 8 or something? How many airbags are affected? MILLIONS. The recall is not because of the inherent danger of airbags, but because of a design flaw.

3. a car did an illegal pass on a hill on a gravel road, she swerved to avoid hitting the guy head on, ran off the road and rolled in a ditch, she was going 50.
4. tehnically speaking, a rollover isnt a side crash.
5. Depends on how many rolls a car does and how brutal the rolling is. SUVs are top-heavy, so they will be more apt to roll than any other car. IIRC, Jeep had a rollover recall a few years back because Jeeps kept rolling if you turned to quickly.
8. Killed 5, four of which were in the US and injured more than 30, some severely, If statistics mattered, a recall wouldnt of been issued for MILLIONS of cars with less than 50 injuries/deaths. Not a "Substaintal ammount" in your statistical world.