The Ethics of Buying Both to Test

[Mitch Rapp]

I have very good reasons to want both a 2019 16” MacBook Pro and a 2020 13.3” MacBook Pro to compare:

1) I want to see the impressive performance of the 16”. A certain simulation (no GPU required) I need for my job currently takes 30 minutes to complete (on a 4-core Dell Inspiron 3493). I also like the bigger display of the 16” but hate the bulky package.

2) I want to experience the portability of the 13.3” that would allow me to use my computer more comfortably in many different environments (especially when not working on the project described above). This would make the computer far more useful when away from my 32” 4K monitor setup.

I’m very tempted to order both (from Apple), try them out with my specific software/setup, and send back the one I decide against before the 15-day return window closes.

While there is nothing stopping me from doing this, I feel it is bordering on being unethical. It obviously is not the intended method of purchase as one of the computers would be ‘open box’, costing Apple extra money.
.

Has anyone ever done a ‘trial run’ like this?

I am in your exact same situation. A few months ago I faced a similar dilemma as well. I purchased something from Costco a year ago but haven't really used it because it didn't always work. I mentioned it in passing to a Costco employee because I was buying a like item. When he suggested the one that I already have I told him that I already have it but don't like it, etc. that's why I'm here. He INSISTED that I bring it back for a full refund even though I told him it doesn't feel right to me. He even took me to a manager who said the same thing. I asked the advice of a good friend of mine and he said that Costco determines their policy, not me. If they are ok with it then I should have no qualms.

Regarding your current situation with the MacBook Pros - I ordered a 13" from Apple and am still waiting for it. I wanted to go to the store and play around with both the 16" and 13" but since everyone is locked down I couldn't. When I went to Best Buy they told me I could buy it and then return it if I don't like it. So, I'm replying to your post from my new 16" while the 13" is currently between China and here. So far, the performance is incredible but I'm concerned about portability...duh. It's an incredible machine though.

BTW, I never returned the product back to Costco. Even though it was ok with them, in my mind I didn't think it was right. Want to buy a Ring 2? Haha!

 

[simonmet]

You’d be giving someone the opportunity to buy a perfectly fine refurbished unit for less, so I think that more than cancels out any ethical concerns you might have.

Plenty of YouTubers use the policy regularly and Apple doesn’t seem to care about them being serial returners.

 

[faust]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, etcetera. GO ahead and buy both and see what you like.

 

[TravelsInBlue]

Normalizing this behavior is one of the major problems in this forum.


The consumer should do their research, and then make the purchase they feel is appropriate. Trillion dollar company notwithstanding, there's a large percentage of people who do this, and you can bet it drives up the cost for everybody. Not only that, but it's purely selfish behavior.


If there's a legitimate defect, sure, that's what returns are for. But "it isn't much faster than my 2019", "I decided to try it out for a bit", "I decided I didn't want it", "I bought two with the intent of just keeping one" are pretty terrible reasons.

 

[IngerMan]

One of them will just end up in the refurbished store in a few months for $220 less. Apple will do OK by it.

 

[Phil77354]

You know, that we are even having this discussion here, with a very good dialogue and thoughtful comments, is a pretty encouraging thing, in my opinion. Nobody is suggesting taking unreasonable advantage of Apple. The OP isn't looking for others to support his doing something improper. There may be (and certainly are) people who do abuse these policies but I don't see much evidence of that here.

I am waiting to see what the OP has decided to do! Do we need voting buttons to get to a consensus?

 

[sub150]

I've bought so many iPads thinking I would be able to use them but I always return them. Return policy is there for a reason. That being said, if all I needed to do is one test I would try and do it in a store.

 

[maflynn]

pretty terrible reasons.

No it isn't, Apple's return period isn't constrained to defects only but rather if the consumer is thrilled or not

The OP is seeing if he's going to be thrilled by getting both

 

[Infinite Vortex]

Apple return policy is what it is and sure, is open to abuse. Although I doubt that most abuse the system though. If you're truly undecided and can find no other way (like arranging an appointment in a store at a quiet time) to decide then do it. Only you know if you're doing your best to do the right thing… if you are then why does anyone else's opinion matter?

Personally I would more have a problem with the Youtube reviewer that returns units after they've reviewed it. Or someone who has a project, uses the unit(s) for the 2 weeks and then returns it. That sort of thing I find abusive of the policy and frown upon it.

I've never had a case of this indecision myself where I've always know what I was buying and why I was buying it. While using the larger MBP is way better although I have to travel and move with my MBP such that the 13" will always be the better option.

 

[LFC2020]

No it isn't, Apple's return period isn't constrained to defects only but rather if the consumer is thrilled or not

The OP is seeing if he's going to be thrilled by getting both
View attachment 919250

🤔🤔🤔

Does that mean I can return my 2016 13" MacBook Pro for a refund, and then replace it with a 2020 model. 😂

 

[IngerMan]

🤔🤔🤔

Does that mean I can return my 2016 13" MacBook Pro for a refund, and then replace it with a 2020 model. 😂

yes for a modest price, sign here!

 

[Friarchuck]

The cost of the return policy is baked into the cost of all the machines that every customer ends up purchasing. Apple knows that for every 100 mac sales, x of them will be returned, and the machines are priced accordingly. The only way you could abuse the policy is if you buy one with absolutely no intention of keeping it, but that still won't hurt Apple.

 

[cardsdoc]

I’m not sure why this is much of a debate. When companies offer no question free returns that cost is factored into the product pricing and is expected to be used by some as a trial/audition period. It may even increase business when people can purchase with no worries if they don’t like it. I consider myself an ethical person and this in no way would make me think twice. My favorite subwoofer company (SVS) offers free 45 day returns. Customers will frequently order more than one model subwoofer and see which one they like better and return the other. This is expected and SVS factors that shipping cost into product pricing just like Apple I’m sure does. It’s just a business model.

 

[pshufd]

You could go to Costco to try them out as they are open and have the 16 as a demo. Not sure on the 13. But a lot of people do this on Amazon with clothes. And Amazon tolerates it to a level. I'd guess that Apple is aware that people do this and factor it into their pricing.

If you're feeling really bad for Apple, you might salve your conscience with this:

 

[ignatius345]

Agreed, that's why we pay premiums

Especially now that there's no way to go to an Apple Store and try both out in person.

And, cynically speaking, I guess by doing so you're gonna be putting a Mac into the Refurbished section of the Apple website...

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Just to add a note here - the discussion seems to have descended into the fact that Apple are a rich company so can afford this behaviour; Apple wants you to test and return what you don't like; Or don't do it, it's immoral.

The return policy is in place to give people peace of mind when purchasing, in that if it isn't for them they can return without dolling out a large amount of money for something they aren't happy with.

There's no need for ethics debates on this, as it depends on your reasoning - but purchasing something with the explicit intention of returning is the main crux that should be looked at.

If everyone did this, they wouldn't have the return policy, regardless of how wealthy a company is, they don't become wealthy by being generous. As is the case in HK for those that don't know, but there is no return policy there due to people abusing the system - so it can happen, albeit in a smaller market (There may be other places but that's the only one I'm familiar with).

This isn't to stand up for any point of view, just to lay out some points before it becomes a defending / attacking Apple / Fanboy kind of debate.

 

[iRun26.2]

One of the arguments that partially legitimizes the ‘double purchase’ in my mind is that Apple generally doesn’t have discounts on their products like other retailers. For example, Amazon (and others) have special pricing for the MacBook Pros, discounting many configurations by several hundred dollars. Amazon, however, doesn’t let you return open-box computer products without a restocking fee (at least that’s what I’ve read). Other resellers are similar. It’s like, as others have said, the price you pay at Apple is to be ‘delighted’. I want to be delighted with my purchase which hinges on making the optimal choice of computers for my needs.

 

[pshufd]

There's no need for ethics debates on this, as it depends on your reasoning - but purchasing something with the explicit intention of returning is the main crux that should be looked at.

Costco has this problem.

A coworker told me that he bought things from Costco, used them for trips, and then returned them. This was laptops, cameras and GPS systems. I was floored as we're paid well. I imagine that Costco will kick you out if you do this too often.

I'd guess that Apple tracks this behavior so they know what percentage of their customer base is doing this and that they can price accordingly.

 

[iRun26.2]

Costco has this problem.

A coworker told me that he bought things from Costco, used them for trips, and then returned them. This was laptops, cameras and GPS systems. I was floored as we're paid well. I imagine that Costco will kick you out if you do this too often.

I'd guess that Apple tracks this behavior so they know what percentage of their customer base is doing this and that they can price accordingly.

It’s almost unbelievable that somebody would do that.

 

[Phil77354]

It’s almost unbelievable that somebody would do that.

I agree completely. Completely abusing Costco's policy, and shameless enough to talk about it! Incredible.

 

[iRun26.2]

Well, I ordered the first one: 2020 13.3” 10th generation i7, 32G RAM, 4TB SSD (top of the line) in space grey.

This is the one I think I’ll be the most pleased with. I still have the thought that I should get the 16” instead... because I do have some applications that could use the extra processing power. However, I may not even order it at all. The size of the smaller one just seemed right when I saw it in the store. I might wait to upgrade, using the one I ordered, until they can put a 6-code or 8-core processor in the 13.3” version. I greatly value portability.

If I were to order the 16”, I think I’d get the i9 with 32G RAM and 4TB SSD. Apple will certainly be making money off of me one way or another!

 

[amgff84]

I have very good reasons to want both a 2019 16” MacBook Pro and a 2020 13.3” MacBook Pro to compare:

1) I want to see the impressive performance of the 16”. A certain simulation (no GPU required) I need for my job currently takes 30 minutes to complete (on a 4-core Dell Inspiron 3493). I also like the bigger display of the 16” but hate the bulky package.

2) I want to experience the portability of the 13.3” that would allow me to use my computer more comfortably in many different environments (especially when not working on the project described above). This would make the computer far more useful when away from my 32” 4K monitor setup.

I’m very tempted to order both (from Apple), try them out with my specific software/setup, and send back the one I decide against before the 15-day return window closes.

While there is nothing stopping me from doing this, I feel it is bordering on being unethical. It obviously is not the intended method of purchase as one of the computers would be ‘open box’, costing Apple extra money.
.

Has anyone ever done a ‘trial run’ like this?

There is a return policy, which you can use. No need to feel like you are taking advantage of Apple. Not with their bank account!

In terms of ethics specifically, take the utilitarian approach. At the end, you had still bought one which helps you and all of Apple, so you had done so because your decision to buy not only helps you, but everyone else involved in the chain.

Consider this;

You buy two, the office creates an invoice and then a picker in the warehouse gets them ready and gives the order to the shipper. The shipper packs it up and UPS comes along and picks it up. It passes through numerous UPS (or FED EX) hubs until it finally lands on your door. You do your thing and then create a return label, then UPS is back to pick it up (or you dropped it off at a UPS shipping center which employs people) and it makes its way back to the warehouse where people now have to inspect it and get it back into inventory.

Now imagine if 100 people did that a day...

Your one return is fart in the wind to their bank account, but it enables more work for others.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Well, I ordered the first one: 2020 13.3” 10th generation i7, 32G RAM, 4TB SSD (top of the line) in space grey.

This is the one I think I’ll be the most pleased with. I still have the thought that I should get the 16” instead... because I do have some applications that could use the extra processing power. However, I may not even order it at all. The size of the smaller one just seemed right when I saw it in the store. I might wait to upgrade, using the one I ordered, until they can put a 6-code or 8-core processor in the 13.3” version. I greatly value portability.

If I were to order the 16”, I think I’d get the i9 with 32G RAM and 4TB SSD. Apple will certainly be making money off of me one way or another!

Great. You'll have to accept some sacrifice with a notebook like this. In general, the 13" is far more portable, but is less powerful overall (Which depending on tasks, may or may not be a concern). The 16" is a beast, but it is heavy. Take into account the power bricks and stuff as well.

Personally, my 16" is 90% of the time on the desk, so I want the power. If it was 90% on the road, then the 13" would be better (Although for my use the 13" wouldn't cut it, so I'd probably just get an Air and another iMac for the office).

So really depends on your expectations and use. I hope the 13" suits you well, if however you find it's not powerful enough then you can return and order the 16" - just accept that the extra power comes at the expense of portability.

Good luck!

 

[Steve686]

There is no ethics in buying/testing and returning.

You are free to buy, regardless of your intentions, and you are free to return regardless of your reasons.

Sure.

But that doesn't mean he can't feel bad about it, right?

 

[Ruggy]

There is no ethics in buying/testing and returning.

You are free to buy, regardless of your intentions, and you are free to return regardless of your reasons.

Maybe for Apple I don't know, but have you ever looked at the percentage of returned high tech items that are ever used again? It's staggeringly low. There are warehouses stuffed with returns that go out of date, lose cables or chargers etc and you can pretty much say that nearly all of it will end in landfill.
Maybe it's different for Apple- I hope- but there's definietly an ethical argument to returns which goes way beyond what you have a right to do.