The Ethics of Buying Both to Test

[profcutter]

If you want to be ethical, don’t buy any new Macs, just keep old ones running. That way you’re not paying a company which contracts with Foxconn, where the working conditions are so bad people jump to their own deaths. If you want to be ethical, stop buying machines that need tantalum and cobalt from conflict countries. I mean this whole ethical question makes no sense to me at all. When I buy a new computer, I know that I’m giving money to a company whose ethics are marginal, to say the least.

I happen to need a computer to do my work, and I happen to like Macs. Dell and the others use the same contractors, so you’re no better off buying one of those. The idea that buying and returning a computer when most stores are closed down so you can’t even test them in person is somehow an ethical violation is ludicrous, and demonstrates a real lack of understanding of the meaning of the term. Buying computers or cars or gas is not an ethical activity. We do it out of necessity. Apple has a responsibility to its shareholders, consumers have no such responsibility. If apple’s bottom line is suffering, they’ll change their policy.

 

[sdp77]

👍🏻

Well said!

 

[Madhatter32]

Buying computers or cars or gas is not an ethical activity. We do it out of necessity. Apple has a responsibility to its shareholders, consumers have no such responsibility. If apple’s bottom line is suffering, they’ll change their policy.

The notion that commerce does not involve ethical activity does not make any sense but I fear you are not alone in that opinion. Apple's conduct or its responsibilities (which I think Tim Cook would agree extends beyond just its shareholders) is not relevant to whether you and anybody else should act ethically. To use your examples, have you ever bought two cars with the intention or returning one? Gas? Or more broadly, do you often make deals you have no intention of keeping? I think consumers and corporations should act ethically and responsibly but perhaps I am in the minority.

 

[Madhatter32]

You're making a well-reasoned argument and I think there is general agreement to your point that abuse of these return policies could lead to them being taken away, as the LL Bean example you cite.

But I think that it is going a bit far to call this specific case bad conduct, or abuse, and here is why. The distinction here is that the buyer would be making a purchase knowing from the beginning that one of the machines would be returned. But not both, since the buyer does intend to own one of the candidate machines. The buyers problem is that he needs to determine which of two models is going to be satisfactory.

You suggest that the buyer should make the request to Apple for a 'testing unit' (something I don't think exists, but maybe I'm wrong), or go to a store (something that is at least temporarily not possible, but also for many buyers who don't live conveniently close to an Apple store this is not a very practical option. Not everyone lives in a large enough city to have an Apple Store, or within reasonable driving distance of one.)

So what does the buyer do? You advise the buyer to do research and make the best decision possible and order the model he thinks is most likely going to meet his needs. That is completely reasonable. If he receives it and decides it is not satisfactory, then he is free to return it, and presumably order the other unit that he has already decided would be his alternate choice.

The end result of that course of action is perhaps at worse a 50/50 change that the product will be returned, whereas ordering both at the same time means that there is a 100% chance that one of the products will be returned. The first is clearly preferable even though doing it that way is less to the benefit of the buyer because no direct comparison would be possible. Which brings up the point of how often do any of us have the opportunity to use multiple computers for a period of time before finalizing our choice?

Personally I do not expect to find myself in a position where I would be so undecided between one model vs another that I would consider doing something like this. That is where most of us probably find ourselves. The unethical person would do this as a general practice and without any second thoughts. The OP here is in my view in between these two. He does not sound like someone who does this kind of thing on a regular basis, but he is genuinely having a hard time determining which machine will be best for his needs, and recognizes that Apple does have a policy that allows him to do this in his particular situation, to help him make a buying decision in the comfort of his own home. I don't think that is unethical, but it is taking advantage of Apple's return policy with the full intent of using it to return the one he decides not to keep.

Question - back to your suggestion of asking Apple for a 'testing unit'. Suppose that the OP does that, contacts Apple, and explains his difficulty. Let's hypothesize that Apple responds by telling him to order both and return the one he doesn't want to keep, since they don't have 'testing' units, and that would be the next best thing. Would you consider that to be acceptable?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You make several good points. Generally, I would say that acting ethically is not always the easiest thing to do. In fact, it is often harder. Especially with the pandemic going on, I can understand why someone would want to order two machines with the intention of returning one (and maybe both). But I do not think it's good form and is, ultimately, unethical because you are looking to deceive the other party (who the other party is does not really matter). It's dishonest plain and simple.

What is the OP to do? I think your solution is correct. I would have no problem if the OP got permission from Apple prior to ordering both machines. I think that would be more than acceptable -- even laudable. Given what is going on in the world, I wonder how amenable Apple would be to such a request. Apple may pleasantly surprise you.

QUESTION -- What if the OP sought permission, Apple refused, and the OP did it anyway? Would you then think the OP was acting unethically?

 

[iRun26.2]

The notion that commerce does not involve ethical activity does not make any sense but I fear you are not alone in that opinion. Apple's conduct or its responsibilities (which I think Tim Cook would agree extends beyond just its shareholders) is not relevant to whether you and anybody else should act ethically. To use your examples, have you ever bought two cars with the intention or returning one? Gas? Or more broadly, do you often make deals you have no intention of keeping? I think consumers and corporations should act ethically and responsibly but perhaps I am in the minority.

I actually have bought (or, more correctly, “ordered”) two cars at the same time.

Back in 2005, I wanted a new, top of the line, Toyota Prius. I needed it as soon as possible as the clutch of my previous car (Honda Civic with 342k miles) had gone out (and I was still driving it by starting it ‘in gear’ at stop lights). I paid several dealers a refundable payment to see who could get it for me first. When the soonest dealer called me with the car I was able to cancel all of the other deals and get my money back.

Maybe that sounds unethical too. I considered it being shrewd.

(And one dealer actually told me they had the car when they didn’t just to get me in to try and switch me to something else).

 

[profcutter]

My point is your stated concern about the "ethics" of buying and returning a laptop is completely dwarfed by the unethical manner in which the computers are produced. How do you buy a product which is produced under unethical conditions ethically? The potential loss of perhaps 200 dollars in profit for a trillion-dollar company is so insignificant when compared to the human lives that are destroyed by the very action of production of those laptops, as to make this question moot, at best. I understand the idea of a mental exercise, I suppose. If we're really concerned about ethics, then unless your action by purchasing a computer and not returning it resolves the human rights violations committed in its production, then no possible action of buying a new laptop has any relevance to the larger and overwhelmingly more important ethics concerns.

 

[Madhatter32]

My point is your stated concern about the "ethics" of buying and returning a laptop is completely dwarfed by the unethical manner in which the computers are produced. How do you buy a product which is produced under unethical conditions ethically? The potential loss of perhaps 200 dollars in profit for a trillion-dollar company is so insignificant when compared to the human lives that are destroyed by the very action of production of those laptops, as to make this question moot, at best. I understand the idea of a mental exercise, I suppose. If we're really concerned about ethics, then unless your action by purchasing a computer and not returning it resolves the human rights violations committed in its production, then no possible action of buying a new laptop has any relevance to the larger and overwhelmingly more important ethics concerns.

I do not disagree with anything you write about Apple's relative scale (especially compared to any individual who are like ants to them) or challenge your assertions about Apple's unethical conduct. I agree with your previous point about buyers lacking options to buy from ethically pristine companies, although I would encourage people to purchase from Apple, Dell and HP over Hauwei and Lenovo.

I disagree with your argument about relative ethics though -- that Apple's lack of ethics justifies the OP to act similarly albeit on a much smaller scale. I get what you are saying. What's the harm? Who cares? Where's the unfairness? However, the OP posited a question about the ethics of his or her own conduct, which has nothing to do with Apple -- at least to me. Making a purchase under false pretenses is not exactly ethical behavior.

 

[Grohowiak]

Personally I wouldn't do it. I would find some place (apple store if you have one in the area) and go camp it for few hours.
On the other hand I'm happy people do it cause I always buy from the refurbished store

 

[Phil77354]

QUESTION -- What if the OP sought permission, Apple refused, and the OP did it anyway? Would you then think the OP was acting unethically?

That would make the situation very straightforward - if Apple says no, then the buyer shouldn't do it. Might be thought of as one of those 'don't ask the question if you're not prepared for the answer' situations, but why not do just that? That way there is no ambiguity in making use of Apple's return policy for this purpose. The OP is clearly looking for some reassurance before going ahead and ordering two machines. This would solve that problem. If Apple says that they don't intend for their return policy to be used in this way, then fair enough, the OP shouldn't do it.

I actually suggested this earlier in this discussion:

If you need further reassurance, why don't you have a chat with Apple online and ask them directly whether or not they have any issue with doing this? I'll bet you that they will give you the green light, but it would be interesting to see if they have a different way of responding to customers who may ask about doing this.

 

[russell_314]

The consumer culture is try before you buy and some people like to try out a few things. Who buys a car without a test drive these days. One time when I went to buy a car, they offered to loan it to me for a day to try it out.

The big difference is after you test drive the car even for a day the dealer can still sell it as "new" and doesn't lose money. Most products can't be sold as new once returned after use. You can "test drive" them in the Apple store (After the current pandemic). I don't know how an actual test drive program where you take it home would be possible but that would be a great idea. Perhaps you would have to pay a deposit then provide some type of identification.

 

[pshufd]

I would be surprised if it is properly quantified in pricing models if it becomes a widespread practice. And, to your point, even if Apple is able to protect its margins, the practice still drives up costs to the consumer and widespread abuse could threaten return policies.

It would be trivial to track.

It raises costs for the average consumer but that's life.
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The big difference is after you test drive the car even for a day the dealer can still sell it as "new" and doesn't lose money. Most products can't be sold as new once returned after use. You can "test drive" them in the Apple store (After the current pandemic). I don't know how an actual test drive program where you take it home would be possible but that would be a great idea. Perhaps you would have to pay a deposit then provide some type of identification.

You have to leave your old car there while you take the new one so they have some idea as to your assets and liabilities. I told them that I'd pay cash and that I could make a decision that night but that I wasn't planning to.
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I actually have bought (or, more correctly, “ordered”) two cars at the same time.

Back in 2005, I wanted a new, top of the line, Toyota Prius. I needed it as soon as possible as the clutch of my previous car (Honda Civic with 342k miles) had gone out (and I was still driving it by starting it ‘in gear’ at stop lights). I paid several dealers a refundable payment to see who could get it for me first. When the soonest dealer called me with the car I was able to cancel all of the other deals and get my money back.

Maybe that sounds unethical too. I considered it being shrewd.

(And one dealer actually told me they had the car when they didn’t just to get me in to try and switch me to something else).

Airlines and hotels overbook. I'd guess that car dealers also do that to some extent. Some percentage of people change their minds or have their plans go astray and sophisticated software is there to maximize profits in the process.

 

[iRun26.2]

The big difference is after you test drive the car even for a day the dealer can still sell it as "new" and doesn't lose money. Most products can't be sold as new once returned after use. You can "test drive" them in the Apple store (After the current pandemic). I don't know how an actual test drive program where you take it home would be possible but that would be a great idea. Perhaps you would have to pay a deposit then provide some type of identification.

That kind of makes me think I should buy the 16” MacBook Pro (for testing) from the refurbished selection. That way Apple wouldn’t lose the price of a brand new laptop if I don’t like it and send it back.

Doing this certainly would not be ideal (or free for Apple) but it would be one step removed from ‘wasting’ a brand new model for a test/comparison.

I already have the 13.3” version I want on order but it won’t be delivered for about two to three weeks. If I now tried the refurbished 16” and liked it I could cancel the 13.3” long before it would arrive.

However, I so dearly would love to have both, at the same time for a batch of software tests and usage position/experience tests.

 

[ctjack]

Apple has increased RAM upgrade price from $100 to $200 on MBP 13 from 8gb to 16gb. If Apple don't care about ethics, then why should you?

 

[Jack Neill]

I love it when people return things. I bought a open box 2020 MBA For 130$ off just because someone returned it. It’s still brand new to me and was in mint condition. The added savings allowed me to bump up to the i5 and 512.

 

[iRun26.2]

Apple has increased RAM upgrade price from $100 to $200 on MBP 13 from 8gb to 16gb. If Apple don't care about ethics, then why should you?

It isn’t right to be unethical just because someone was unethical to you.

Also I also don’t know how charging more for the RAM is unethical. We don’t know their reasoning.

 

[russell_314]

Apple has increased RAM upgrade price from $100 to $200 on MBP 13 from 8gb to 16gb. If Apple don't care about ethics, then why should you?

Wow not only do you not understand the meaning of ethics but the whole well if Timmy can do it so can I is childish at best.
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That kind of makes me think I should buy the 16” MacBook Pro (for testing) from the refurbished selection. That way Apple wouldn’t lose the price of a brand new laptop if I don’t like it and send it back.

Doing this certainly would not be ideal (or free for Apple) but it would be one step removed from ‘wasting’ a brand new model for a test/comparison.

I already have the 13.3” version I want on order but it won’t be delivered for about two to three weeks. If I now tried the refurbished 16” and liked it I could cancel the 13.3” long before it would arrive.

However, I so dearly would love to have both, at the same time for a batch of software tests and usage position/experience tests.

Don't let my opinion shame you into doing something you don't want to do. I mean even though I would consider it not exactly ethical that doesn't mean it's like terrible either. I do like the refurbished idea. I hear refurbished is like new without the retail box.

 

[Grohowiak]

That kind of makes me think I should buy the 16” MacBook Pro (for testing) from the refurbished selection. That way Apple wouldn’t lose the price of a brand new laptop if I don’t like it and send it back.

Doing this certainly would not be ideal (or free for Apple) but it would be one step removed from ‘wasting’ a brand new model for a test/comparison.

I already have the 13.3” version I want on order but it won’t be delivered for about two to three weeks. If I now tried the refurbished 16” and liked it I could cancel the 13.3” long before it would arrive.

However, I so dearly would love to have both, at the same time for a batch of software tests and usage position/experience tests.

Refurbished macs / ipads are exactly same as new ones.
I've been buying them like this since a very looong time. Never had a single issue.
Same warranty, applecare+ can be added and etc. I just got the $16". $370 savings. I'll take it.
Not to mention their resale value is not lower than the new ones. Every time I replace them I am getting same numbers as those claiming hey got them new.

 

[Phil77354]

Apple has increased RAM upgrade price from $100 to $200 on MBP 13 from 8gb to 16gb. If Apple don't care about ethics, then why should you?

I think that your point is more that you feel Apple is greedy, in pushing their prices higher, however this is not the same thing as being unethical.

Unethical would be if Apple was cheating their customers in some way, misrepresenting their products, charging for something they don't deliver, things like that.

 

[Bustermd]

Some ludicrous arguments on this page and frankly a lot of attitude of self-entitlement.

Yes you are within your rights and are not breaking any laws by buying both knowing very well you are returning one no matter what. Is it ethically right? No. Period. Full stop. You are exploiting a loophole that could potentially result in increased cost to consumers. Apple will certainly allow it, but that doesn't change anything. And from the amount of complaining about the price of Apple products I hear the argument of "Its baked into the price you pay" is a fairly flimsy one. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and justify it, but we all know its all nonsense otherwise you wouldn't have created this post and the thought wouldn't have crossed your mind. And if you asked the question you should get an honest answer, not just what you want to hear.

The only potentially legitimate argument one could make is that you couldn't try it out in store because they are now closed. Well, its pretty easy to poke a lot of holes in that one:
1. You can't install your own software for your specific use case in the store to test it out so its a moot point. If the size and weight were the concern you would have more of an argument, but only if you buy the 16 then find its too big and exchange it.
2. The performance of the models you are interested in is well documented in thousands of YouTube videos.
3. You already know what it looks like (again, YouTube, this site, etc).
4. Lots of direct to consumer retailers don't have physical stores where you can try things out. Apple may have a better return policy than others but that doesn't change the ethics. Apple's profits and crazy markups are also irrelevant. You have free will and can choose what to buy and not to buy.

 

[iRun26.2]

That would make the situation very straightforward - if Apple says no, then the buyer shouldn't do it. Might be thought of as one of those 'don't ask the question if you're not prepared for the answer' situations, but why not do just that? That way there is no ambiguity in making use of Apple's return policy for this purpose. The OP is clearly looking for some reassurance before going ahead and ordering two machines. This would solve that problem. If Apple says that they don't intend for their return policy to be used in this way, then fair enough, the OP shouldn't do it.

I actually suggested this earlier in this discussion:

Over the past few nights I've had trouble figuring out how to contact Apple support through an online 'chat' session. It isn't as easy to get to a chat session started as I thought it was going to be.

I finally got it working tonight but only when I got in by entering the serial number of my old (current computer) 2015 MacBook:

Apple Support: Thanks for contacting Apple Support. My name is XXXXXX. How can I help you?
Me: My computer is too slow and I ordered a new MacBook Pro 13.3" However, everybody says I should get the 16" version instead but I think it will be too big. I want to test them together at home. Can I borrow them to test.
Me: I don't know what to do. I feel I need to test them at home.
Apple Support: I can understand your concerns, I will do my best to asset you.
Apple Support: We do not have a borrow option but new Mac purchases do have a 14 day return period from the date you receive the Mac so if you are not happy with the Mac you can return the Mac.
Me: Does that mean it would be ok if also ordered a 16" MacBook Pro and compared them and then returned the one that I didn't like?
Apple Support: You can do that step. If possible I would recommend to go to a Apple Store or Reseller to see if they have a display model that you can take a look as as well.
Me: Well, in this current time, that is rather difficult. I really want to test them myself and use them in various places in my house (and car) to see they operate and how portable they are. I'm curious how hot they both would get when on my lap.
Apple Support: I can understand. This link https://www.apple.com/shop/help/returns_refund show our return policy and how to do it.
Me: So, is it OK if I order the second computer to test?
Apple Support:You can order the second one. Make sure you request the renter within the 14 days.
Me: Thank you! You have been most helpful.

So, I have received the blessing of Apple technical support to order the second computer to test...

 

[Phil77354]

Me: So, is it OK if I order the second computer to test?
Apple Support:You can order the second one. Make sure you request the renter within the 14 days.
Me: Thank you! You have been most helpful.

So, I have received the blessing of Apple technical support to order the second computer to test...

Actually I was under the impression from what you posted earlier that you had ordered the 13" version and were going to give that a try first, but it sounds like you couldn't give up on the 'try 2, keep 1' plan!

Fair enough, you asked Apple and as expected they said go ahead and do it.

Now, you are going to have to hope that they both arrive at more or less the same time. It will be very ironic if, after all of this agonizing back and forth, you can't do a side-by-side comparison.

By the way, contacting support via chat is pretty easy (I think so, anyway). Here is the link, you do need to find the magic combination of product and issue so that they give you the chat option rather than try to satisfy you with help pages:

Apple Support

getsupport.apple.com

 

[iRun26.2]

Actually I was under the impression from what you posted earlier that you had ordered the 13" version and were going to give that a try first, but it sounds like you couldn't give up on the 'try 2, keep 1' plan!

Fair enough, you asked Apple and as expected they said go ahead and do it.

Now, you are going to have to hope that they both arrive at more or less the same time. It will be very ironic if, after all of this agonizing back and forth, you can't do a side-by-side comparison.

I am going to wait until my 13.3" is close to arriving. Then I will order a refurbished 16" MacBook Pro. This won't take but a few days to arrive. Also, then I will cost Apple less money because they won't lose money on a brand new machine (unless I decide to return the 13.3" version).

 

[malkovich87]

Why not order one of them, test it out - if it works keep it. If it doesn't then return and order the other one?

I think that is fairer than ordering 2 with the intention of returning 1.

yup, that's what I'd do - get the one you like slightly better and keep if it works out

 

[iRun26.2]

yup, that's what I'd do - get the one you like slightly better and keep if it works out

I have to admit, even after all of this discussion, that I am becoming biased towards just getting 13.3” MacBook Pro and not comparing it together to the 16” version (not ordering it too).

I would also lose money on direct computer comparison test (having to buy a separate copy of Parallels for the 16” and 13.3” models). I also saw a new video today showing how well the 13.3” version works in Parallels.

 

[Phil77354]

I have to admit, even after all of this discussion, that I am becoming biased towards just getting 13.3” MacBook Pro and not comparing it together to the 16” version (not ordering it too).

I would also lose money on direct computer comparison test (having to buy a separate copy of Parallels for the 16” and 13.3” models). I also saw a new video today showing how well the 13.3” version works in Parallels.

By the time your 13.3" MBP arrives, 2 weeks or so still in the future, you will have gone back and forth a dozen more times here, agonizing over all of the pros and cons, and somewhere along the way you'll be on the verge of receiving the 13.3" and go to the Apple refurb store and they'll be out of 16" MBPs, or they won't have one that is configured right for you, and so it will be a whole new set of problems, and then finally you'll receive the 13.3" and it will be so doggone nice, beautiful new computer fresh out of the box, that new computer smell, everything is so great, you'll get it plugged in and start to use it, and all thoughts of anything else will evaporate as if they never existed . . .