The Ethics of Buying Both to Test

[russell_314]

I’d say it’s an unethical but most people aren’t very ethical anyway. Do what makes you sleep at night. If it doesn’t bother you and it’s legal then do whatever. If it bothers you then don’t do it.
[automerge]1590735445[/automerge]

Sure.

But that doesn't mean he can't feel bad about it, right?

I think people are confusing what they can do with what they ethically should do. Those are two very different things. A landlord can kick an old lady out on the street in the middle of winter for not paying her rent. It’s not his responsibility if she freezes to death. Is it ethical? Probably not but oh well he has a right to do it.

Of course buying a product with the intention of returning isn’t to that level but I was making a point separating what one can do from what one ethically should do. It’s not hurting Apple when you buy that product and return it. Apple customers are paying for it. Only the person can determine if that violates their ethical rules

 

[jerwin]

1. Generally, Macs are not upgradeable, so I don't think it's that unreasonable to buy with the intention of returning an item if it can't run your favorite software to your satisfaction.
2. Apple has a very liberal return policy, and high prices. Other retailers may discount the MSRP, but refuse your return. In part, by shopping at Apple, you are paying for that return policy.
3. If you don't want to pay Apple's prices, you can patronize the refurb store. It's full of returned computers with strange custom configurations, with a few stock models thrown in for good measure. Obviously some users are taking advantage of the return policy-- and Apple hasn't changed it.
4. With COVID-19, it's healthier to shop at home-- and not spend hours running benchmarks in the store.
5. The store often doesn't have the exotic configurations-- so if you have special requirements, benchmarking at home may be the best option.

 

[chengengaun]

There is another thread from two months ago with almost the same arguments for and against the practice.

 

[maflynn]

I’d say it’s an unethical

Please explain why you think its unethical.

If Apple doesn't put conditions on their return policy, and they plainly state that they want you to be thrilled and consumer laws are on your side. Plus there is no restrictions on buying multiple machines or going through some sort of litmus test, what is the lack of morality of buying two laptops to see which one best fits?

I'd say this behavior is probably even more acceptable in May of 2020, when most of us are living within quarantine restrictions and the Apple stores are not open to compare and contrast the models.

I will say if someone can do their homework and research without buying two machines, that's the better approach, but not because of morality or ethics, but rather efficiency, why bother spending money and needing to go through the process of returns if you can avoid it, and get the info you need other ways.

 

[russell_314]

Please explain why you think its unethical.

If Apple doesn't put conditions on their return policy, and they plainly state that they want you to be thrilled and consumer laws are on your side. Plus there is no restrictions on buying multiple machines or going through some sort of litmus test, what is the lack of morality of buying two laptops to see which one best fits?

I'd say this behavior is probably even more acceptable in May of 2020, when most of us are living within quarantine restrictions and the Apple stores are not open to compare and contrast the models.

I will say if someone can do their homework and research without buying two machines, that's the better approach, but not because of morality or ethics, but rather efficiency, why bother spending money and needing to go through the process of returns if you can avoid it, and get the info you need other ways.

Because you’re buying a product with the intention of returning it that’s costing the company, investors, and other customers money. The common argument is well if Apple allows it then it’s OK and it is OK. OK does it equal ethical. As I said in my argument it’s OK to kick that old lady out on the street in the middle of winter because she didn’t pay rent. It’s probably not ethical to do it though. Ethics can also be depending on the person and how their ethical beliefs are. I based my ethics and doing what is morally right and I don’t feel it would be morally right for me to intentionally cost a business money since those cost will be passed on to their consumers. Well I judge someone for doing this now because it’s something that’s acceptable in society. I have no grounds to judge others behavior based on my ethics. Some people wouldn’t think twice about kicking that old lady out in the street and it wouldn’t keep them up at night. As to the question only the person doing it can determine if it’s ethical or not. There’s a good chance if you have to ask you’re already feeling it’s not ethical.

 

[Sirmausalot]

The 16" is a beast of a machine superior in every way including the speakers. Start with that and if it works, don't look back. The 13" is a lesser machine and is a compromise in performance. So if the 16" isn't working or "thrilling you" because of ergonomics, return it get the 13".

 

[maflynn]

Because you’re buying a product with the intention of returning it that’s costing the company, investors, and other customers money

Apples and oranges, you're trying to tie a company's profitability and a consumer's choice. Whether a company makes money or loses money is one thing, Whether I'm free to buy and return a product for my own reasons is a completely different subject. You're confusing the well being of investors, with the actions of a consumer who is exercising his/her rights.

Again consumer laws, and apple's own return policy do not impose conditions other then if we're happy or not (and within a time limit of purchasing of course). If they're not imposing a restriction that you can't buy 2 items, check both out and return, why are you trying?

There are certainly ethical decisions that are black and white, to be sure, but I don't consider exercising your rights as a consumer unethical. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Btw, a few years ago, I was getting my battery replaced for my 2012 MBP, and given the age, Apple wasn't going to have the top case in stock for maybe 5 weeks. The manager of the store, told me, if its a need, he'd sell me a new MBP, with the intention of returning it, even after the 14 day return period. While a little different then the OP, the idea of buying it with the intention of returning it fits, and Apple's own spokesperson, i.e., the manager was all in for that.

 

[iRun26.2]

Suppose I were to buy a refurbished 16” MBP? Can that be returned, no questions asked?

 

[Phil77354]

Suppose I were to buy a refurbished 16” MBP? Can that be returned, no questions asked?

I believe so:

What goes into a refurbished Mac.
All refurbished Mac models are backed by a one-year warranty, have free delivery and returns, and also include:

• Full functional testing, genuine Apple part replacements (if necessary), and a thorough cleaning
• The original Operating System or a more recent version1
• All refurbished devices are repackaged in a brand new box with all accessories and cables2

1. If your device is shipped with the original Operating System, the most recent version can be downloaded for free from the App Store.
2. Supply is limited and availability is guaranteed once we receive your full payment.

 

[iRun26.2]

I believe so:

What goes into a refurbished Mac.
All refurbished Mac models are backed by a one-year warranty, have free delivery and returns, and also include:

• Full functional testing, genuine Apple part replacements (if necessary), and a thorough cleaning
• The original Operating System or a more recent version1
• All refurbished devices are repackaged in a brand new box with all accessories and cables2

1. If your device is shipped with the original Operating System, the most recent version can be downloaded for free from the App Store.
2. Supply is limited and availability is guaranteed once we receive your full payment.

Yes, indeed. I found specific text stating that they are covered by Apple’s 14-day return policy.

 

[naturalstar]

Suppose I were to buy a refurbished 16” MBP? Can that be returned, no questions asked?

It can. I started with a refurb 16”, and while I mostly enjoyed it, it did not meet my portability criteria. I returned it and had my refund processed the same day Apple received it. Just initiate the return within the 14-day period. You get another 2 weeks after that day to ship it back. When you initiate the return, Apple will show you your initiate-by date, then when you complete that step, you will see your ship-by date.

 

[iRun26.2]

If you think you are going to use it in your lap a lot, lean hard toward the 13". I have both units and the 13" is much more a laptop. The 16" feels unsteady in my lap. I only use it on a table or other hard support surface. But for performance (software development, compiling, and ML model training) the 16" walks all over the 13".

Also, if you are planning on running a Windows VM, you might want to think twice about macs. They run OK, but not as well as on a dedicated Windows machine like a Dell with the latest and greatest optimized windows drivers.

I work for a small company and we have to ‘wear many hats’. So, beside doing FPGA design, I also use X-code to write software for an iPhone App used by our customers. Having one computer that can run both Windows and OS X is critical for me.

I definitely don’t want to be carrying around two computer (one for Windows engineering software and the other for X-code). That would be worse than the bulk of the 16” MBP.

 

[russell_314]

Apples and oranges, you're trying to tie a company's profitability and a consumer's choice. Whether a company makes money or loses money is one thing, Whether I'm free to buy and return a product for my own reasons is a completely different subject. You're confusing the well being of investors, with the actions of a consumer who is exercising his/her rights.

Again consumer laws, and apple's own return policy do not impose conditions other then if we're happy or not (and within a time limit of purchasing of course). If they're not imposing a restriction that you can't buy 2 items, check both out and return, why are you trying?

There are certainly ethical decisions that are black and white, to be sure, but I don't consider exercising your rights as a consumer unethical. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Btw, a few years ago, I was getting my battery replaced for my 2012 MBP, and given the age, Apple wasn't going to have the top case in stock for maybe 5 weeks. The manager of the store, told me, if its a need, he'd sell me a new MBP, with the intention of returning it, even after the 14 day return period. While a little different then the OP, the idea of buying it with the intention of returning it fits, and Apple's own spokesperson, i.e., the manager was all in for that.

Again customers pay for total cost of doing business to include returns. If returns increase then the price will increase. Just because an Apple employee said to do it doesn't make it ethical. Webster defines ethics as "a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values".". Everyone has different moral principles so what you might feel is ethical I would not and vice versa. The OP was asking for opinions on if this is ethical so my opinion is that it's not. This doesn't mean someone else could have a different option

 

[iRun26.2]

It can. I started with a refurb 16”, and while I mostly enjoyed it, it did not meet my portability criteria. I returned it and had my refund processed the same day Apple received it. Just initiate the return within the 14-day period. You get another 2 weeks after that day to ship it back. When you initiate the return, Apple will show you your initiate-by date, then when you complete that step, you will see your ship-by date.

I must admit that I have been quite amazed at the selection of the available refurbished MBP 16” computers that are available at Apples website. It almost makes me think that is a bad sign.

On this forum there have all kinds of threads talking about the woes of the 16” MBP. It makes me almost certain that if I buy it, I will buy it knowing that I will be using it only until the version with the mini-LED screen is released (at which time I assume some of the other issues will be fixed).

 

[maflynn]

at which time I assume some of the other issues will be fixed

That's the gamble.
I think display related issues should be resolved, if the next gen is mini-LED, i.e., ghosting. People are hoping the GPU kernel panics are resolved via a software update, but looking at how long Apple took to resolve the T2 bridge KPs, its anyone's guess, speaking of those, I'm not sure if those are fully fixed, but I assume they are since there's really no chatter about it.

 

[iRun26.2]

That's the gamble.
I think display related issues should be resolved, if the next gen is mini-LED, i.e., ghosting. People are hoping the GPU kernel panics are resolved via a software update, but looking at how long Apple took to resolve the T2 bridge KPs, its anyone's guess, speaking of those, I'm not sure if those are fully fixed, but I assume they are since there's really no chatter about it.

It’s hard to know how widespread the problems of the 16” MBP are. I know someone who owns a 16” MBP and she loves it but I know she wouldn’t be pushing it like I would.

I will not be initially purchasing a high-end model like I normally would. I don’t trust it based on what I’ve read.

 

[naturalstar]

I must admit that I have been quite amazed at the selection of the available refurbished MBP 16” computers that are available at Apples website. It almost makes me think that is a bad sign.

On this forum there have all kinds of threads talking about the woes of the 16” MBP. It makes me almost certain that if I buy it, I will buy it knowing that I will be using it only until the version with the mini-LED screen is released (at which time I assume some of the other issues will be fixed).

It’s funny because when I first started looking on the refurb site, the 16” were far and few in between. I don’t know if it was timing with the Air being introduced or limited work being done due to COVID disruptions. Of the few that showed up, I could never find an i7 and ended up getting an i9. After that there was nothing for about a week. Once the new MBPs were announced there were none to be found - on the US site - for almost 2 weeks. Now many configurations are available every day!

Anyway, I didn’t have problems with the 16” while it was on 10.15.3. No thermal issues from running my monitor at all. I used mine with the lid open. I was connecting with the same USB-C to HDMI cable I’m using now. My monitor is a native 2K 60Hz. The problem seems to occur if pushing 4K or higher so that could have been why? When I upgraded to 10.15.4, I experienced the kernel panics where the MBP would shutdown when closed for sleep while on charging only and then only on the left side and not the right. By that time I had already determined the 16” was too big for me so I didn’t dig further.

I can’t give any real advice on whether to get the 16” or not. I know for me personally, coming from a mostly Windows life where there’s many options to choose from, I’m less tolerant of hardware issues when they present themselves so quickly. I get that you don’t have the same choices with MacOS so if you want or need the 16” you have to do a little more troubleshooting or live with some issues hoping they get fixed in a future update. That’s hard to swallow when laying out the money these machines cost, but then that’s the purpose of gathering research and doing a cost-benefit analysis.

FWIW, I’d buy the 2 to test and return whichever one didn’t work out.

 

[pshufd]

The consumer culture is try before you buy and some people like to try out a few things. Who buys a car without a test drive these days. One time when I went to buy a car, they offered to loan it to me for a day to try it out.

 

[iRun26.2]

The consumer culture is try before you buy and some people like to try out a few things. Who buys a car without a test drive these days. One time when I went to buy a car, they offered to loan it to me for a day to try it out.

The guy who threw him the keys is represented by Apple in this case...

 

[poorcody]

OP, I really don't think there is anything unethical in doing it. These return policies certainly can be abused, but in this case you are trying to make a serious decision about an expensive, serious investment. Apple is a premium brand with premium pricing to match, because, in part, they are generous in allowing such things. Apple could certainly limit such behavior if they chose to. I think their policy is made with people in your position in mind. I bet there isn't an Apple employee from a front-line Apple store worker to Tim Cook who would tell you not to do that as long as you are making a serious comparison. (Well, any employee outside of accounting, anyway. 🤑)

I had a friend of a friend who was an MBA student at Wharton many years ago. He would proudly buy and return fax machines every 30-days, so he would never have to actually pay for one, even changing stores after a couple of returns to continue his game. That was unethical (and weird). Your case is totally reasonable IMO.

 

[Madhatter32]

Apples and oranges, you're trying to tie a company's profitability and a consumer's choice. Whether a company makes money or loses money is one thing, Whether I'm free to buy and return a product for my own reasons is a completely different subject. You're confusing the well being of investors, with the actions of a consumer who is exercising his/her rights.

Again consumer laws, and apple's own return policy do not impose conditions other then if we're happy or not (and within a time limit of purchasing of course). If they're not imposing a restriction that you can't buy 2 items, check both out and return, why are you trying?

There are certainly ethical decisions that are black and white, to be sure, but I don't consider exercising your rights as a consumer unethical. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Btw, a few years ago, I was getting my battery replaced for my 2012 MBP, and given the age, Apple wasn't going to have the top case in stock for maybe 5 weeks. The manager of the store, told me, if its a need, he'd sell me a new MBP, with the intention of returning it, even after the 14 day return period. While a little different then the OP, the idea of buying it with the intention of returning it fits, and Apple's own spokesperson, i.e., the manager was all in for that.

I do not agree with your argument. I fall on the side of unethical. Many are conflating issues but at the core it's all about intentions. Going into a deal you know you are not going to keep is unethical. If you buy it and then determine you dislike it -- that's not what is being debated. OP wants to buy with the full intent of returning it. This is not only an abuse of the return policy, it drives up the costs to other purchasers who want to buy new. Consumer protection laws and return policies are not intended to protect those who just want to borrow a product for 30 days. In addition, believe it or not, the abuse can be costly. For example, LL Bean had to revoke their Life Time Guarantee because it was being abused. I fear that this type of bad conduct will jeopardize a liberal return policy that is really beneficial for those people who need to make returns for genuine reasons. I would advise the OP to do reserach prior to purchase. If Apple fails to deliver a product that meets those expectations, return it. The ethical thing to do would be to request Apple to provide a testing unit or go to store.

 

[pshufd]

I do not agree with your argument. I fall on the side of unethical. Many are conflating issues but at the core it's all about intentions. Going into a deal you know you are not going to keep is unethical. If you buy it and then determine you dislike it -- that's not what is being debated. OP wants to buy with the full intent of returning it. This is not only an abuse of the return policy, it drives up the costs to other purchasers who want to buy new. Consumer protection laws and return policies are not intended to protect those who just want to borrow a product for 30 days. In addition, believe it or not, the abuse can be costly. For example, LL Bean had to revoke their Life Time Guarantee because it was being abused. I fear that this type of bad conduct will jeopardize a liberal return policy that is really beneficial for those people who need to make returns for genuine reasons. I would advise the OP to do reserach prior to purchase. If Apple fails to deliver a product that meets those expectations, return it. The ethical thing to do would be to request Apple to provide a testing unit or go to store.

It's already priced into the margin models.

Everything is quantized these days.

 

[Dayo]

I don't consider exercising your rights as a consumer unethical.

The OP did not ask a question about his rights but about ethics. Ethics, a question of morality, is a totally separate issue from rights or legality.

It is perfectly legal for me to sprint in front of a frail old lady on a Zimmer Frame to grab the last loo roll on the supermarket shelf. i am sure you will agree that while it is legal, it is not the most ethical/moral action.

So please, don't turn the query into one about his rights ... he never asked about that.

As to the ethics of "buying" something with the full intention of returning it, there is no question that it is not ethical as the end result is detrimental to others.

 

[Madhatter32]

It's already priced into the margin models.

Everything is quantized these days.

I would be surprised if it is properly quantified in pricing models if it becomes a widespread practice. And, to your point, even if Apple is able to protect its margins, the practice still drives up costs to the consumer and widespread abuse could threaten return policies.

 

[Phil77354]

I do not agree with your argument. I fall on the side of unethical. Many are conflating issues but at the core it's all about intentions. Going into a deal you know you are not going to keep is unethical. If you buy it and then determine you dislike it -- that's not what is being debated. OP wants to buy with the full intent of returning it. This is not only an abuse of the return policy, it drives up the costs to other purchasers who want to buy new. Consumer protection laws and return policies are not intended to protect those who just want to borrow a product for 30 days. In addition, believe it or not, the abuse can be costly. For example, LL Bean had to revoke their Life Time Guarantee because it was being abused. I fear that this type of bad conduct will jeopardize a liberal return policy that is really beneficial for those people who need to make returns for genuine reasons. I would advise the OP to do reserach prior to purchase. If Apple fails to deliver a product that meets those expectations, return it. The ethical thing to do would be to request Apple to provide a testing unit or go to store.

You're making a well-reasoned argument and I think there is general agreement to your point that abuse of these return policies could lead to them being taken away, as the LL Bean example you cite.

But I think that it is going a bit far to call this specific case bad conduct, or abuse, and here is why. The distinction here is that the buyer would be making a purchase knowing from the beginning that one of the machines would be returned. But not both, since the buyer does intend to own one of the candidate machines. The buyers problem is that he needs to determine which of two models is going to be satisfactory.

You suggest that the buyer should make the request to Apple for a 'testing unit' (something I don't think exists, but maybe I'm wrong), or go to a store (something that is at least temporarily not possible, but also for many buyers who don't live conveniently close to an Apple store this is not a very practical option. Not everyone lives in a large enough city to have an Apple Store, or within reasonable driving distance of one.)

So what does the buyer do? You advise the buyer to do research and make the best decision possible and order the model he thinks is most likely going to meet his needs. That is completely reasonable. If he receives it and decides it is not satisfactory, then he is free to return it, and presumably order the other unit that he has already decided would be his alternate choice.

The end result of that course of action is perhaps at worse a 50/50 change that the product will be returned, whereas ordering both at the same time means that there is a 100% chance that one of the products will be returned. The first is clearly preferable even though doing it that way is less to the benefit of the buyer because no direct comparison would be possible. Which brings up the point of how often do any of us have the opportunity to use multiple computers for a period of time before finalizing our choice?

Personally I do not expect to find myself in a position where I would be so undecided between one model vs another that I would consider doing something like this. That is where most of us probably find ourselves. The unethical person would do this as a general practice and without any second thoughts. The OP here is in my view in between these two. He does not sound like someone who does this kind of thing on a regular basis, but he is genuinely having a hard time determining which machine will be best for his needs, and recognizes that Apple does have a policy that allows him to do this in his particular situation, to help him make a buying decision in the comfort of his own home. I don't think that is unethical, but it is taking advantage of Apple's return policy with the full intent of using it to return the one he decides not to keep.

Question - back to your suggestion of asking Apple for a 'testing unit'. Suppose that the OP does that, contacts Apple, and explains his difficulty. Let's hypothesize that Apple responds by telling him to order both and return the one he doesn't want to keep, since they don't have 'testing' units, and that would be the next best thing. Would you consider that to be acceptable?