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The First Nonsmoking Nation
- Thread starter wdlove
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Brize said:
well if you put it like that, yeah.
sorry edesign, you're still the man.
just remember not all smokers are w*****s and not all non-smokers are delightfully selfless and thoughtful people.
Oh no, and I wouldn't want anyone to think for a moment that that is my opinion of all smokers either, but as Brize said, some of my earlier posts in this thread were in response to this, the kind of smoker I most certainly don't like...mouchoir said:
chanoc said:
edesignuk said:
it seems i'm becoming guilty of my own accusations of hot headedness!
rats, gotta go back and edit my post now...
there's been a lot said so I'll attempt to add something new, without covering familiar territory even where it's obvious -- if I can make my point well enough -- it's really based on a bit of a personal philosophy and based on my own life experience, partly brought about from seeing two very good, healthy, honest, clean people who are very close to me die of completely random causes.
Johnny Carson just died. emphysema. It sucks, and would be really easy to blame his smoking, but he had a great life as far as I can tell and he lived it fully. Maybe if we weren't a smoker he would have been jogging at the age of 45 and gotten hit by a bus. Life is random. There are no guarantees.
Smoking, while dangerous, like so many other things can actually add to the quality of ones life. If it feels good, do it -- er, to an extent I think. Moderation helps.
Suppose you like downhill skiing and you break your neck. Should my insurance premiums be effected by your wanting to participate in some stupid sport? I don't really care actually. We all live in the same society and everyone gets their kicks in different ways.
I always think of a comparison I've heard about people and their pets and I'll use my cats as an example. I've got two cats, one of them is a fat bastard. He loves to eat, whines like mad until you feed him more. He's fat and happy. The other cat eats in moderation. He's fit and happy. So will my fat cat die from liver cancer or will my fast cat die from darting out the door behind my back and get smacked by a car? Hopefully neither, but I don't really know.
Johnny Carson just died. emphysema. It sucks, and would be really easy to blame his smoking, but he had a great life as far as I can tell and he lived it fully. Maybe if we weren't a smoker he would have been jogging at the age of 45 and gotten hit by a bus. Life is random. There are no guarantees.
Smoking, while dangerous, like so many other things can actually add to the quality of ones life. If it feels good, do it -- er, to an extent I think. Moderation helps.
Suppose you like downhill skiing and you break your neck. Should my insurance premiums be effected by your wanting to participate in some stupid sport? I don't really care actually. We all live in the same society and everyone gets their kicks in different ways.
I always think of a comparison I've heard about people and their pets and I'll use my cats as an example. I've got two cats, one of them is a fat bastard. He loves to eat, whines like mad until you feed him more. He's fat and happy. The other cat eats in moderation. He's fit and happy. So will my fat cat die from liver cancer or will my fast cat die from darting out the door behind my back and get smacked by a car? Hopefully neither, but I don't really know.
It seems to me that the only people who are getting hot headed in here are the anti-smoking faction.
I'm sorry if you go into a private place (ie: Bar) that is full of smoke and you don't like it. Instead of complaining, why don't you go ahead and open your own non-smoking bar. See, you'll quickly find out that people enjoy smoking while they drink. Thats why you can smoke in a bar! You don't have any god given right to go there -- its a private place after all. And if the owner of that private place uses his rights to decide people can smoke there, well then, I guess you're just going to have to live with that.
As for people complaining about smoking outside, come on. Do you really think that my one cigarette is going to pollute the air so much that its going to kill you just by walking by? Give me a break, what percentage of the air do you think is smoke after it hits the atmosphere. I'd say <1%. Your SUV probably added more pollution to my air than my cigarette added to yours. So, perhaps I am the one who should be swinging punches at non-smokers who drive large SUVs??
I'm sorry if you go into a private place (ie: Bar) that is full of smoke and you don't like it. Instead of complaining, why don't you go ahead and open your own non-smoking bar. See, you'll quickly find out that people enjoy smoking while they drink. Thats why you can smoke in a bar! You don't have any god given right to go there -- its a private place after all. And if the owner of that private place uses his rights to decide people can smoke there, well then, I guess you're just going to have to live with that.
As for people complaining about smoking outside, come on. Do you really think that my one cigarette is going to pollute the air so much that its going to kill you just by walking by? Give me a break, what percentage of the air do you think is smoke after it hits the atmosphere. I'd say <1%. Your SUV probably added more pollution to my air than my cigarette added to yours. So, perhaps I am the one who should be swinging punches at non-smokers who drive large SUVs??
So you choose to do something that kills you and the people around you, not to mention the stench, and we (the non-smokers) are supposed to work around you and your filthy habbit????sgarringer said:
edesignuk said:
Just as those of us have to put up with drunks in bars spilling drinks on us.
What about the food additives that probably are having a greater effect on peoples health? Do we then ban extreme sports, since if you hurt yourself I have to pay for the medical care in one way or another? Maybe we should ban all vehicles that don't meet ULEV standards till we can all drive electric cars?
You know, you and others that have taken the anti-smoking stance would probably be more effective in expressing your view points without the condescending and hostile tone.
I agree that smoking is not healthy for all parties. But it is a currently legal substance that is addictive. So are the collective you as negative and hostile to others that suffer addictions (otc and prescribed drugs, alcohol, and gambling)?
Some are quick to use the "science" in attacking smokers. At the same time it seems that some are quick to dismiss the "science" behind addictions. And what about the "science" of the survival of the fittest? What about the costs if everyone stopped or never smoked, and life spans increased? And at the same point want to dismiss the lost tax revenue that smoking provides in excess of the costs.
It seems to me that as we grow as a society that will not accept "hatred" or "discrimination", that some will try to find a new scapegoat for their anger.
er...but bars/pubs = booze = drunks, it's a given, besides, a little drink over your shirt is hardly the same thing as poisoning others lungs (a little strong I know, but essentially that's what it's doing)Chip NoVaMac said:
Those are some amazingly irrelevant comparisons.
You and others that have the pro-smoking stance are only doing the same.
edesignuk said:
here here
just think you smokers how much more money you would have to spend if you didnt smoke! and how you wouldnt smell terrible, and how your teeth wouldnt be brown. and how your fingers yourld be brown. and how you wouldnt age premeturly. and how you wouldnt die of something horrible and how you probably wont do the same to some poor non-smoker.
oh dont go on about the tax you pay and how it funds the nhs - if you all didnt smoke so dammed much in the first place you wouldnt have to use it. and it will only be funding you all to go to those quitting classes and the free pills you can get to help you to give up only to take the habbit back up again 2 weeks later due to you going to the pub and seeing your 'cool' mates smoking. oh and you all look stupid with the white sticks in your mouth, get a dummy or something to stick in your mouths!
nearly the end of my rant.
oh and girls smoking is just horrible.
I don't smoke and sadly, I've got so used to it in bars that unless someone has their cigarette smoking directly under my nose, it doesn't really bother me. Until the next morning when I pick up the jacket I was wearing and it is unwearable until it's been aired outside for a few hours... I hate to think what my lungs are like afterwards.
The trouble is that the smell of smoke is so pervasive that you can have a bar with 50 people in it, 2 start smoking and pretty soon the entire area smells.
For the Londoners in the thread, there is a very good non-smoking pub in the City near Liverpool St called the Phoenix. It's always been packed when I've been in - but it is very pleasant.
Incidentally, I do agree that some of the comparisons that people come up with to justify smoking are completely ridiculous. So I'll add to them - the smoke smell and residue that you leave on me as a byproduct of your smoking are directly comparable to the end results of one of my vices, drinking. I'm sure that if a smoker blows smoke in my face, they'll have no objection to me taking a sample of my urine and pouring it over them
The trouble is that the smell of smoke is so pervasive that you can have a bar with 50 people in it, 2 start smoking and pretty soon the entire area smells.
For the Londoners in the thread, there is a very good non-smoking pub in the City near Liverpool St called the Phoenix. It's always been packed when I've been in - but it is very pleasant.
Incidentally, I do agree that some of the comparisons that people come up with to justify smoking are completely ridiculous. So I'll add to them - the smoke smell and residue that you leave on me as a byproduct of your smoking are directly comparable to the end results of one of my vices, drinking. I'm sure that if a smoker blows smoke in my face, they'll have no objection to me taking a sample of my urine and pouring it over them
edesignuk said:er...but bars/pubs = booze = drunks, it's a given, besides, a little drink over your shirt is hardly the same thing as poisoning others lungs (a little strong I know, but essentially that's what it's doing)
Those are some amazingly irrelevant comparisons.
You and others that have the pro-smoking stance are only doing the same.
But we are talking choices. Even though it was dismissed sort of before, non-smokers could go to places that are non-smoking. Vote with your feet and money.
Not really. Could the food additives and smoking be a cause of the increase in lung related illnesses? Here in the US the SUVs do not have to meet the same standards as cars do for emissions. You mentioned the cost of treating smokers, what about the cost of those that engage in other risky behavior?
I hope that I have not come across "condescending and hostile". I know that some have. And I know it is all too easy to give back the same that is being given.
edesignuk said:Just needed to be said again
thank you. i just dont get it how the minority here (the smokers) get their own way?
how would you like it if the biggest minority group of people in the world (left handed people [we are so the best]) we able to go with out paying taxes?
That's where they'll try to make their argument though, the fact that they are the minority; saying that the minority shouldn't be over powered by the majority. Which is perfectly correct in many cases, but in this one IMO is totally wrong.russed said:
Chip NoVaMac said:
I'd love to but there are very few places that are no-smoking. I know more non-smokers who no longer go out than places which are guaranteed to be no-smoking.
There must be a market for it - there is always a longer wait for non-smoking tables than smoking in restaurants. If you are late checking into a hotel (even when late check-in is confirmed ahead), you often find that your non-smoking reservation is now only available in a smoking room (where the pillows are truly disgusting in their smokey stench).
russed said:
Hows that again? One of my best friends owns a bar and loves running it/bartending. We both smoke, and I would say every other patron there smokes. If you're going to force us not to smoke inside a business he owns, how is he not a victim?
Trust me, if enough people sided with you in bars, than it'd be a non-issue. The fact is, your in the minority and can't stand it. To be honest with you, as a smoker, I occationaly go outside for "fresh air" at a bar. So what? I'M GOING TO A BAR FOR GOD SAKES!!! PEOPLE SMOKE AT BARS!! IF I DIDN'T LIKE IT, I'D STAY HOME!
sgarringer said:
no, i think you will find through your inflated vision that there is infact less people that smoke but to defend your cause you are seeing more than there are. also as your post shows, you smokers clearly cant see that you are in the wrong. it is a horrible habbit. dont you think you smell? how much do you smoke a day - whork out how much better off you would be if you didnt.
russed said:
If I lived in England and had provided the monetary support to run NHS, I sure as **** would rely on it. However, I don't have medical insurance and probably wont in the future. When I start to get sick, I plan suicide, for your information. Irregardless of if its from smoking or not.
russed said:
Russed - try reading some of the mails through rather than just hitting reply. I said in my first reply I was a nonsmoker and in the post where you suggest I give up, I was actually saying that there is a bigger market than some think for nonsmoking.
Another thought is that 20 years ago, the thought of banning smoking on planes, trains and buses was scarcely discussed. Now even longhaul flights are non-smoking.