Tsepz
macrumors 603
Exactly. Oh man, my iPad would be perfect with a true file system, that is literally one of the only things missing. I don't buy the security rubbish as even cloud servers get hacked.
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iPad The Future of the iPad Does Not Include A Traditional Filesystem
- Thread starter jeremiah256
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I don't think that will happen. Mac OS X does a great job at hiding it's actually UNIX from the average citizen, but the power remains for those who want it.
Osty
macrumors 6502a
Yes, assuming OS X sticks around. We all see the writing on the wall aka apples vision of personal computing. It will be UNIX based, sure but at somepoint we can kiss the terminal and file system goodbye, not that they are great in OS X anyway
Night Spring
macrumors P6
Possibly true. But people of his generation overall had a shorter lifespan than people today. They were fit from hard work, but they didn't have access to the level of medical care available today. And I don't know if the ideal solution to the fitness problem we have today is to send everyone to live and work in farms.
What I'm trying to say is even if you're right and the walled garden approach to computing make the next generation of computer experts not as robust in their skills as earlier generations, the simplification of user-facing computing has benefits for non-expert computer users like my mom. Maybe for society in general, that's a worthwhile tradeoff to make.
richpjr
macrumors 601
The reality is you can have both. Whether a file is dumped by the OS into a large bucket inaccessible to a user or in the directory hierarchy of their choosing, the same tags and indexes and everything else mentioned can be used on them.
Thing is we can all get what we want here. iOS can throw in this in as a feature. Feature that if not needed, you don't have to use it.
Apple is good at this. my iOS on phone and iPad has stuff I don't use. I don't have an apple watch, ergo I don't use that functionality as an example.
They have done this on mac os. Where 2 very powerful features are there and if you don't need them you don't have to use them. A mac user can go years not typing one line of bash commands. There is fun little folder called library hidden away (you have to hit alt then go to even see it). Here if so desired you can get more granular control with application files, plists, etc. If not desired...you never have to hit the alt key to see it even.
This can be done on iOS. Several years into development it can be assumed an app dev for iOS is going to throw in the usual api calls. Dropbox, google, iCloud etc. these are standard now. I don't see those of us wanting file system access changing this. It can be just one more menu option/button. Don't want to see a file system...don't hit that button.
Hit the dropbox one (or other favored cloud provider) and roll with it. People like me hit the file system button button, I type in ip to my NAS (if not auto mounted if possible) to access shares on that and I do my things that way. Win win really.
spiderman0616
Suspended
Apple would be walking a fine line here. If you open that up, it's opened up potentially to everyone. At that point, you've turned it into a "complicated computer" again. The main reason so many people screw up their computers is that the huge library of files being used in the background gets screwed up somehow. If you open that up on an iPad, it is no longer the computer for regular people. I'm not sure what the solution is here, but I am pretty sure it's not "Put Finder on iOS". There has to be a better way that makes everyone happy.
rui no onna
Contributor
The file system has been accessible in Android from the start and it hasn't exactly turned Android into a "complicated computer" for most users. I doubt many people even know it's there.
NT1440
macrumors P6
Wurt?
My client's constantly ask me why their photos seem to save to three different locations....
NT1440
macrumors P6
Users who just click on things without knowing what they do. We call them users who know enough to be dangerous.
iOS is nice for those users because it's essentially idiot proof, by design.
I still can't see what you can just click on and have this happen. And I think you can still make something idiot-proof without sacrificing functionality.
NT1440
macrumors P6
Working in Academia, GeekSquad, and now ESPN, I've yet to see anything come close to those two ideals. 😛
These users tend to have a file management program installed (again, the "I know how to do that" users are dangerous when they think they know what they are doing).
It can be difficult but it is feasible. I worked on very large-scale command and control systems where idiot-proofing while preserving capability and flexibility was a challenge but it is doable.
NT1440
macrumors P6
I know it's doable, but honestly the logistics of making it manageable on an install base of nearly 1 billion devices....well I don't envy anyone willing to take on that project.
I think Apple is consumer focused first and foremost. For the vast, vast majority of users a file system is not only irrelevant, I doubt they could tell you what it is. Now that makes forum dwellers angry, but honest to god they are not the market here.
Most likely true. The implication being that for a lot of forum dwellers an iPad is not the best choice.
NT1440
macrumors P6
Exactly. In my opinion, if you're tech savvy enough to discuss technology on a forum (hell the fact that you're on a forum itself should be a dead giveaway), you're NOT the typical tech consumer.
spiderman0616
Suspended
Exactly. Furthermore, I am NOT just a casual user, but have found that all I really ever used Finder for was to access my Dropbox and iCloud Drive folders, so I have not missed it in moving most of my tasks over to iPad Pro.
Not seeing that. As, well, its already an issue in iOS. How do fix a flaky app? Uninstall, reinstall. This process I imagine forces a recreation of the troublesome file in its library. the work authorized mail app we use like this. When it gets in its moods, take it out and put it back. I stopped putting it back tbh....need me that bad iPhones can be used as phones as well lol. One of my peeves with iOS. When apps get in moods we can't figure out why. Something I tend to like to work out at times. Habit I have from IT work. Log files can be of great help...if only we could see them.
If anything file system could help as I know from several OS's sometimes it can be a simple file that needs love. Config file or oddly enough a corrupt log file that won't die properly and chokes the application up as it sees the bad file, won't progress further till it can log the error but the file it logs to is the ,duh duh duh, bad file that won't die.
If lucky its the old trick of delete or rename it, fire up app, recreates the new file now not corrupted and its all good after that.
Or if we had the access and you like uninstall/reinstall for simplicity...keep on doing that.
Or another caveat we file systems likers have is just give us a kind of sand box realm in the device. A nice open area to call our own. Collaborative efforts program wise can be made not throwing in the middle man of the cloud. Its this aspect I don't like. The file is just right there....but I have to go through up/down loads to get it.
Also creates the pet peeve of version control nightmares as I have 3+ copies going (edit: when a file or files is being worked on in different applications, or like if working with xml I can be picky about the editor for the xml....but I need that xml file accessible to another application at some point). Source A has its version. Dropbox has its version once sent by source A. And now destination B has its copy. How does source A get the file with changes? Another cycle of up/download.
Case of my MBP I don't have this issue. Either local to disk to if working with NAS based files I can be down to the one copy and everything in a communal folder. 2 if I opt for automated backup files made or make them myself. Some editors in the past used offer the former.
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Yeah... I really don't see that happening in OS X. I'm sure they will continue to make the UI more friendly (and a file manager may not be the primary way to interact with files), but you will always have access to the terminal window and file system in OS X.
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Or, at least, to dump their entire existing workflow to replace it entirely with the iPad. It's probably a fine choice to do SOMETHING of their stuff.
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I'll agree to (at least somewhat) disagree on this point.
I will give you that Google has done a decent job at balancing "ease of use" and "more complex if you want it". However.. I don't want to "set up" a device to make it easy to use. Every android device I've ever used, I have a lot of initial setup to do to make it 'easy like iOS'. Then it works fine for a while, but as time goes on, I find I'm constantly having to back into settings and turn things off and disable things.
From a file system POV, it does make things more difficult because there are developers who will use that files system. 'Install the app, then go into the app folder and copy files from the ad card...'
I'm complaining here, and I know that a lot of people have no issues, but Android and Android apps has never been as uncomplicated, for me, as iOS. Mileage will vary.
I'd rather leave iOS as is and have the option for Android.
dk001
macrumors demi-god
These are great examples of what I was "trying?" to explain. Awesome.
I have a best friend who is entirely tablet based. Works great for her. For me I have far too much (primarily work) where I need the power, apps, and flexibility of a notebook/desktop. So I have deliberately split my use into Tablet = Consumptive and PC = Work/Research. Works best for me.
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Drag and drop photos, music and video. Look at items in download or documents or... There are a lot of users who do and not realize what they are accessing. They may not realize it but use it.
As a storyboard artist, when I work on a show I am given hundreds of files pertaining to that show, and the files have to be organized very carefully. There is a folder for each episode I'm working on, with subfolders for each type of information pertaining to that episode (backgrounds, character designs, audio recordings, script, etc.), and usually one or two more levels of subfolders. I often need to add some of my own files and folders into that folder structure. And as I work, at certain points I browse through a particular folder that pertains to where I am in my work, to see what files are there and which I need to use at that time.
So I don't understand how having all of this data invisible to me would help me, except to help me lose track of which project I'm working on, which files are associated with it, and where I can find those files. Not only that, but if I ever need to pass the project along to another artist, including all its files, how would I do that without a file system? So to the anti file system crowd I ask, if a file system is not the answer to this real world scenario, what is? I'd really like to know.
If file system via cloud storage is the answer, then we all agree that file systems are indeed necessary for people who work on complex projects. I really think you can't get around it: when you have so many files (numerous and span across multiple projects, subjects, filetypes, etc.) that they need to be organized, then you simply have no choice but to organize them. No one else, especially no software, is going to do it in a way that is most practical and efficient for you. Automation is great for things that take no thought, but it will always be horrible for things that do.
By the way, in the video, Steve doesn't seem to speak against file systems at all, just against local storage. In my opinion, it's great in theory, but not in reality. In its current state, cloud storage in iOS is a bottleneck for work flow and in some cases not feasible at all, not to mention it forces you to pay monthly for your own data (which is especially a sore spot when you have a 256 GB iPad with plenty of free space). If Apple really wants the iPad to replace PCs for people who actually work on projects, they need a much better answer.
So I don't understand how having all of this data invisible to me would help me, except to help me lose track of which project I'm working on, which files are associated with it, and where I can find those files. Not only that, but if I ever need to pass the project along to another artist, including all its files, how would I do that without a file system? So to the anti file system crowd I ask, if a file system is not the answer to this real world scenario, what is? I'd really like to know.
If file system via cloud storage is the answer, then we all agree that file systems are indeed necessary for people who work on complex projects. I really think you can't get around it: when you have so many files (numerous and span across multiple projects, subjects, filetypes, etc.) that they need to be organized, then you simply have no choice but to organize them. No one else, especially no software, is going to do it in a way that is most practical and efficient for you. Automation is great for things that take no thought, but it will always be horrible for things that do.
By the way, in the video, Steve doesn't seem to speak against file systems at all, just against local storage. In my opinion, it's great in theory, but not in reality. In its current state, cloud storage in iOS is a bottleneck for work flow and in some cases not feasible at all, not to mention it forces you to pay monthly for your own data (which is especially a sore spot when you have a 256 GB iPad with plenty of free space). If Apple really wants the iPad to replace PCs for people who actually work on projects, they need a much better answer.
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As a solution, tagging works, but you're right, iOS is not quite there yet.
I do this in Microsoft Outlook. I tag or categorize my emails, using multiple criteria (subject, project name, project owner, period due, etc.) and dump them all into an archived folder. I want to know which projects John Smith was working on in February? I filter for February, John Smith, Projects. This method allows me to not have to think where I saved something or what method I used (did I save the email I'm looking for in a project folder or project leader folder?) Be advised, in iOS, I haven't gone from theory to practice yet, and again, I think iOS needs to be improved for it to be a real working solution, but I've tested this and as long as I named my projects with the same name, when I type the name into Spotlight, all the associated files, in Pages, Numbers, and Dropbox, show up in the results. I can only select one at a time (serious weakness), and not all applications get displayed, but the bones of a solution are there.
The current issue with the current way that iOS devices work is that there is no real file system accessible to the user. I think this is the correct way to think for the future of mobile computing but a step backwards for accessibility in the present. Meta tagging content does work to some extent on the current iOS but should be much more intelligent and able to be autonomous of user input unless it is to clarify the tagging. Spotlight can see some things let's say in a Note but it will ignore other things in a note and then try to bring up an email that discusses the same query. This isn't bad really but it needs to be more. It needs to query all the apps that I use and also be smart enough to suggest things that are similar if it doesn't find an exact match. Included into that, I should be able to save my query so that I can get a full project view of everything that I queried. This would make project management possible. Nobody has written this stuff yet into iOS but it might get written sometime in the future.
Included into the discussion I think should be pro tools like diff, meld,grep, sed, python, awk that were mentioned before. Some of these are built into UNIX already and hence, we can already use them to some extent but iOS needs a separate app built into iOS that can query cloud storage solutions and compare to local files. Hence, diff, meld, and grep should be able to be used fairly easily kind of like an Automator interface. The ability to run Python, Ruby, or other stuff like it on iOS would also be a huge help. I think we are currently on the right track where Apple is basically rethinking file access, I just think that they aren't building the rest of it in until they are ready to get rid of their OSX devices and go completely iOS. At this point, that may not even happen but you can already see that they have very few resources dedicated to updating existing OSX apps and even less resources going into supporting their "pro" apps for OSX. It may just be their strategy to lay low until they have iOS devices completely overtake OSX devices in terms of processing power. Not every solution is right for everybody but at least if they can form the basis of a new way to access data, it would help everyone in their daily lives.
Included into the discussion I think should be pro tools like diff, meld,grep, sed, python, awk that were mentioned before. Some of these are built into UNIX already and hence, we can already use them to some extent but iOS needs a separate app built into iOS that can query cloud storage solutions and compare to local files. Hence, diff, meld, and grep should be able to be used fairly easily kind of like an Automator interface. The ability to run Python, Ruby, or other stuff like it on iOS would also be a huge help. I think we are currently on the right track where Apple is basically rethinking file access, I just think that they aren't building the rest of it in until they are ready to get rid of their OSX devices and go completely iOS. At this point, that may not even happen but you can already see that they have very few resources dedicated to updating existing OSX apps and even less resources going into supporting their "pro" apps for OSX. It may just be their strategy to lay low until they have iOS devices completely overtake OSX devices in terms of processing power. Not every solution is right for everybody but at least if they can form the basis of a new way to access data, it would help everyone in their daily lives.