iPad The Future of the iPad Does Not Include A Traditional Filesystem

[Night Spring]

One point all who can use it as a laptop replacement here are forgetting; if you have some type of File Management System to use and don't need it, you can disregard it and use the device successfully. However if you do need it and it doesn't have one, you are pretty much SOL.
Engineering to the least common denominator was not done with iOS.

Building in all sorts of features that someone might need sometime and telling people who don't need them to just ignore them is a recipe for creating complicated, bloated, resource hogging systems.

I think what Apple should do is promote third party file management apps more prminently. That way, people who need them can download them, and people who don't need file management can ignore them. Not everything has to be baked into the OS.

 

[dk001]

I disagree with the "those who don't need it can ignore it" comment. I cannot use a Mac or PC without having to "manage" my files - and I HATE it! It's actually one of the things that I love most about iOS.

IF Apple could figure out a way to create a system that could be ignored AND let there be a usable file management system, I'm ALL for it. I have yet to see a successful example of this though. If OS X or Windows 10 could do it and demonstrate it, I'd be more open to the prospect.

Good point. I have always been in the arena where I do need it and have not been in a "don't need it" work flow.

Building in all sorts of features that someone might need sometime and telling people who don't need them to just ignore them is a recipe for creating complicated, bloated, resource hogging systems.

I think what Apple should do is promote third party file management apps more prminently. That way, people who need them can download them, and people who don't need one file management can ignore them. Not everything has to be baked into the OS.

Now a sandboxed on-device filesystem that you can grant access to or turn it off if not needed. That would be a decent usable solution.

 

[subjonas]

The point is file management does not necessarily equal professional tool.

Yes, for graphic artist types. Not for everybody.

I think we all agree that some professionals need it, and some don't. But honestly nobody here can make any kind of reliable guess as to how many people are in each group. I make no claim to know. I'm just saying I want it.

Not to be flippant, but you're probably 'holding it wrong'. In other words, re-evaluate your workflow, it might be outdated, or inefficient. Root out legacy thinking and methods, things might just fall into place.

It worked for me that way with iOS.

It's a little presumptuous to say "probably" without knowing me or what my work requires. I do reevealuate my workflow with every new tech development I hear about. That said, who knows, maybe you're right and I missed something.

 

[Night Spring]

Now a sandboxed on-device filesystem that you can grant access to or turn it off if not needed. That would be a decent usable solution.

I think this is what iCloud Drive was supposed to be, but it doesn't quite work. Hopefully there will be some improvements in iOS 10.

 

[richpjr]

And there are already Windows, Linux, and Mac OS desktops, tablets, and laptops for people with such needs. Why do you need iOS to have the same swiss army knife capability, bloat, I/O, workflow, and baggage as a 20 year old desktop OS? Why is an iPad a 'fail' until it gets it? Do you really think Apple needs to build iOS and iPads to the spec wishlist of scientists, financial engineers, professional wedding photographers, NASA... anyone else I missed? Get real.

I didn't say anything faintly resembling that. If you read what I said, I said what iOS currently offers is very limiting for a lot of people that work on complicated projects. Most wouldn't care if it was a traditional file system or some kind of smart tagging and the ability to group data regardless of application. Tim Cook has touted iPads as laptop replacements, so I expect they will continue to enhance iOS to overcome some or all of these limitation. And then the fanbois will sing the praises of how brilliant it is.
[doublepost=1464295266][/doublepost]

And your viewpoint isn't narrow? I don't see anyone pretending there are no limitations - I see people talking about how they're able to use the device without issues (or major issues).

Actually, no I don't think my viewpoint is narrow. My response was about the silly comments about how some are stuck in the 1990s or should use Windows.

I get it, iOS doesn't fit everybody's needs - I don't think anybody here will deny that not everyone can (or will want to) use it. There ARE deniers that say "NOBODY can/should replace their laptop with an iPad" - which simply isn't true. Not everybody experiences the same limitations (or see them as limitations) as you do.

There are plenty of people on both sides arguing in this thread about how an iPad can or cannot replace an iPad.

This really comes down to personal preference - and we all need to realize preferences are different. Not everybody cares about / needs a user Accesible file management system - and not everybody sees it as a limitation. I certainly acknowledge that some do, but you need to acknowledge that not every one does.

Agreed, everyone has different needs. But people are rationalizing because they don't need something that it isn't a limitation. It is a limitation that they just don't run into or care about.

And to say "If your needs are simple, you can" is just insulting, as is your saying that everyone who doesn't agree has a narrow viewpoint and are just "fanbois".

You are being way too sensitive here - having simple needs isn't insulting it's just not needing features others do. If I worked on a single document at a time, iOS would work fine. But I regularly work on big projects with dozens of different files of various types. I can, with a big loss of efficiency, do it on an iPad now. But it's difficult and I usually fall back to my laptop. Yeah, I know - pick the right tool for the job. The point is, the iPad is powerful enough to do all that with some enhancements and Tim Cook has said it can be a laptop replacement for some. The number of people it could be a replacement for could be quite a bit large with some iOS enhancements.

The point is file management does not necessarily equal professional tool.

Depends on what you are doing.

 

[jeremiah256]

There are a lot of "almost" and "hit or miss" options but not a single basic solution that works with all, especially default apps. It has been improving. However at the current improvement pace, it will be on the other side of 2020 before we see any type of really usable solution that we don't have to develop for-arounds for.
For now I have "resigned" my process to iPad for consumptive activities, and non-iOS for everything else.

I think the real issue is the failure of iCloud. From Apple apps, I can pretty much save to whatever other app I've tried. That means a document saving app like Documents 5, with offline access for folders, works great when I need it. But Microsoft Office apps don't seem to allow me to directly save to whatever I want and this creates issues with inconsistencies. So, either Apple improves iCloud's offline features, or they take the choice of where to save away from apps and gives that power back to the user.

 

[Night Spring]

But Microsoft Office apps don't seem to allow me to directly save to whatever I want and this creates issues with inconsistencies.

That's more Microsoft's fault than Apple's. Microsoft wants people to use OneDrive, so they don't enable access to iCloud, or enable it only partially. Dropbox has also partnered with Microsoft, so Office documents stored in Dropbox opens automatically in Office apps, but sending them to iWork apps take an extra step or two.

 

[dk001]

I think the real issue is the failure of iCloud. From Apple apps, I can pretty much save to whatever other app I've tried. That means a document saving app like Documents 5, with offline access for folders, works great when I need it. But Microsoft Office apps don't seem to allow me to directly save to whatever I want and this creates issues with inconsistencies. So, either Apple improves iCloud's offline features, or they take the choice of where to save away from apps and gives that power back to the user.

Even if they fix iCloud, the minimal storage space and the fact they want to charge you for it is another roadblock in this mess. Allow me some type of on-device use with the option to incorporate a cloud if desired. Such a relatively simple concept and Apple continues to make a chaotic clusterfrack of it. And with no clear reason as to why.

 

[richpjr]

Even if they fix iCloud, the minimal storage space and the fact they want to charge you for it is another roadblock in this mess. Allow me some type of on-device use with the option to incorporate a cloud if desired. Such a relatively simple concept and Apple continues to make a chaotic clusterfrack of it. And with no clear reason as to why.

I think the reason why is pretty clear - they want to lock you in forever to a subscription service for cloud storage...

 

[jeremiah256]

Even if they fix iCloud, the minimal storage space and the fact they want to charge you for it is another roadblock in this mess. Allow me some type of on-device use with the option to incorporate a cloud if desired. Such a relatively simple concept and Apple continues to make a chaotic clusterfrack of it. And with no clear reason as to why.

If by on-device use, you mean SD cards, that is a clear security vulnerability that neither Apple nor Google (on their flagship Nexus devices) will allow.

Edit/PS: By the way, there are both Lightning adaptor and wireless solutions for external storage for the iPhone. You can have your own private cloud. Haven't used them myself, but plan on playing with them in the near future.

 

[bensisko]

I think the reason why is pretty clear - they want to lock you in forever to a subscription service for cloud storage...

If you want to buy into conspiracy theories, sure...

 

[richpjr]

If you want to buy into conspiracy theories, sure...

I wouldn't say conspiracy theory, but rather smart thinking by Apple. If they can get people to pay monthly fees forever for storage, that is a great business model.

 

[bensisko]

I wouldn't say conspiracy theory, but rather smart thinking by Apple. If they can get people to pay monthly fees forever for storage, that is a great business model.

Not really. Online storage is a break-even-at-best business.

Everything that Apple does (from OS X / iOS, to iCloud, to iTunes and Apple Music) is designed to sell hardware - that's their big money maker.

 

[dk001]

If by on-device use, you mean SD cards, that is a clear security vulnerability that neither Apple nor Google (on their flagship Nexus devices) will allow.

Edit/PS: By the way, there are both Lightning adaptor and wireless solutions for external storage for the iPhone. You can have your own private cloud. Haven't used them myself, but plan on playing with them in the near future.

Not looking at SD - though that option is coming back ...
I have a 64GB device that if I want to store a few GB of file data on in some type of accessible file like system that any allowed app can make use of should be a no-brainer. I can always opt for 128 or a future 256. On device secure storage.
I have it on my Nexus and make frequent use of it. I would love to have it on my iPhone. It isn't that hard to do. It is just that Apple will not allow it.
[doublepost=1464359580][/doublepost]

Not really. Online storage is a break-even-at-best business.

Everything that Apple does (from OS X / iOS, to iCloud, to iTunes and Apple Music) is designed to sell hardware - that's their big money maker.

Not true any longer. Apple is delving hard into services. Any behavior they can make "standard" that drives a subscription business model is a high margin revenue stream for them.

 

[bensisko]

Not looking at SD - though that option is coming back ...
I have a 64GB device that if I want to store a few GB of file data on in some type of accessible file like system that any allowed app can make use of should be a no-brainer. I can always opt for 128 or a future 256. On device secure storage.
I have it on my Nexus and make frequent use of it. I would love to have it on my iPhone. It isn't that hard to do. It is just that Apple will not allow it.

Well, on-device storage - iOS devices have that. You can store files on the iPad just like any other computer. Programs like GoodReader facilitate the file structure you're looking for (and you can send it to another app for editing if you don't want to edit in GoodReader).

But yes, I get it - iOS isn't like the desktop.

Not true any longer. Apple is delving hard into services. Any behavior they can make "standard" that drives a subscription business model is a high margin revenue stream for them.

Yes, they're driving hard into services, but it's not hard selling services - services are there to sell hardware. Proof? Look at Apple's financial calls - all about hardware categories. They need to drive into services to sell hardware - no one is going to buy an iPhone if it doesn't come with, or have the standard of, services.

The profit margins, what makes Apple money, is still hardware.

 

[Night Spring]

Programs like GoodReader facilitate the file structure you're looking for (and you can send it to another app for editing if you don't want to edit in GoodReader).

FileBrowser's "share with other apps" folder does it even better. You can edit files "in place" from other apps that have that function enabled, so you don't end up with multiple copies of the file in each app. For instance, you open Pages app, tap the + button, navigate to FileBrowser, open a file, edit it, and the changes are saved in the copy in the FileBrowser app, without creating another copy in Pages app.

 

[bensisko]

FileBrowser's "share with other apps" folder does it even better. You can edit files "in place" from other apps that have that function enabled, so you don't end up with multiple copies of the file in each app. For instance, you open Pages app, tap the + button, navigate to FileBrowser, open a file, edit it, and the changes are saved in the copy in the FileBrowser app, without creating another copy in Pages app.

Nice!

I've never used FileBrowser, but it's sounds great!

 

[dk001]

FileBrowser's "share with other apps" folder does it even better. You can edit files "in place" from other apps that have that function enabled, so you don't end up with multiple copies of the file in each app. For instance, you open Pages app, tap the + button, navigate to FileBrowser, open a file, edit it, and the changes are saved in the copy in the FileBrowser app, without creating another copy in Pages app.

Trying Goodreader atm and will have to give FileBrowser a shot.

Update: I went and looked and realized I have this app. Great for content access for external files but have had some issues with encrypted accounts. Still looking for an on-device-file version of this.

 

[Night Spring]

Trying Goodreader atm and will have to give FileBrowser a shot.

Update: I went and looked and realized I have this app. Great for content access for external files but have had some issues with encrypted accounts. Still looking for an on-device-file version of this.

What do you mean? FileBrowser does let you store files on device. Look under Locations, and you'll see the local storage sections.

 

[richpjr]

Not really. Online storage is a break-even-at-best business.

Everything that Apple does (from OS X / iOS, to iCloud, to iTunes and Apple Music) is designed to sell hardware - that's their big money maker.

Not really. Services like iTunes and their music subscription are hardware agnostic.

 

[bensisko]

Not really. Services like iTunes and their music subscription are hardware agnostic.

Yep - and iTunes and the music store were there to sell iPods. Apple originally created iTunes so you could connect your iPod to your PC (you're still buying Apple hardware), and yes, part of the strategy would be to entice people to switch to Mac.

Today, it's the same strategy, except they're targeting iPhones instead of iPods. Even Apple Music on Android was created (1) To keep up with Pandora (2) to see Beats headphones (3) for people who use Macs but have Android phones. The likely hood of someone using a PC and an Android phone, yet subscribing to Apple Music (without owning any Apple Hardware) is minimal (though, not impossible).

Apple's Music business has never been about making money on music - it's about selling Apple related hardware. Making the Music 'hardware agnostic' isn't about trying to make money off the services, it's about trying to pay the bills for the services while attracting people to buy the devices/hardware.

 

[Michael Goff]

Yep - and iTunes and the music store were there to sell iPods. Apple originally created iTunes so you could connect your iPod to your PC (you're still buying Apple hardware), and yes, part of the strategy would be to entice people to switch to Mac.

Today, it's the same strategy, except they're targeting iPhones instead of iPods. Even Apple Music on Android was created (1) To keep up with Pandora (2) to see Beats headphones (3) for people who use Macs but have Android phones. The likely hood of someone using a PC and an Android phone, yet subscribing to Apple Music (without owning any Apple Hardware) is minimal (though, not impossible).

Apple's Music business has never been about making money on music - it's about selling Apple related hardware. Making the Music 'hardware agnostic' isn't about trying to make money off the services, it's about trying to pay the bills for the services while attracting people to buy the devices/hardware.

So when Apple says services are the future of the company ...

 

[bensisko]

So when Apple says services are the future of the company ...

... They mean they need services to be able to continue to sell (and make a premium on) hardware.

 

[Night Spring]

So when Apple says services are the future of the company ...

When / where did they say that?

 

[richpjr]

Yep - and iTunes and the music store were there to sell iPods. Apple originally created iTunes so you could connect your iPod to your PC (you're still buying Apple hardware), and yes, part of the strategy would be to entice people to switch to Mac.

Today, it's the same strategy, except they're targeting iPhones instead of iPods. Even Apple Music on Android was created (1) To keep up with Pandora (2) to see Beats headphones (3) for people who use Macs but have Android phones. The likely hood of someone using a PC and an Android phone, yet subscribing to Apple Music (without owning any Apple Hardware) is minimal (though, not impossible).

Apple's Music business has never been about making money on music - it's about selling Apple related hardware. Making the Music 'hardware agnostic' isn't about trying to make money off the services, it's about trying to pay the bills for the services while attracting people to buy the devices/hardware.

So all those movies and TV shows they sell/rent on iTunes are designed to sell....Apple TVs? Okay...

That may have been true in the rapidly fading past, but not so much now.