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pat500000

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Jun 3, 2015
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The GPU's firmware in 6,1 is embedded into main EFI of the system not in the GPU... so how can a third party build a video card? How or where are they going to inject GPU's firmware?
and who is to blame for this? :apple:
Well...that's that. Apple fault then.
 

Mago

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Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
More likely Apple to Offer a "Plus Version" (name it Mac Pro+) of the Trash Can with 2x CPU socket and 2/3 300W GPUs than they to revive the Cage, even if they loss money on low Mac Pro+ sales .
 
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jblagden

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The tower is not going to happen. They redesigned the mac pro into cylinder shape. It is what it is. I was hoping they would allow us to fully upgrade the product...but it's more likely limited..
I’m afraid you’re probably right about. I wonder if it’s more likely that they’ll make a whole different system. Something closer to the classic Mac Pro, but with a different name and maybe a different case. Though, I’d really like them to make a Mac with a couple PCIe slots, upgradable storage, upgradable RAM, a CPU like an i7 and a GPU like a GTX 1070, for around $1500.
 
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aaronhead14

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I’m afraid you’re probably right about. I wonder if it’s more likely that they’ll make a whole different system. Something closer to the classic Mac Pro, but with a different name and maybe a different case. Though, I’d really like them to make a Mac with a couple PCIe slots, upgradable storage, upgradable RAM, a CPU like an i7 and a GPU like a GTX 1070, for around $1500.

This. This would be amazing. Apple HAS to realize that this is a huge market, right?? Especially for professionals.
 

jblagden

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Aug 16, 2013
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Be careful what you ask for! ;)

For the enormous box that it was in, the cMP was rather limited. Too much space was designed for cooling the nuclear fires of the PowerPC CPUs, and everything else was compromised.

Ask for a better tower, not "return" of the old tower.

For example, the MP5,1's PCIe support is:
  • PCIe 2.0 x16 (used by GPU)
  • PCIe 2.0 x16
  • PCIe 2.0 x4 (bandwidth for x4 slots shared)
  • PCIe 2.0 x4
A current Dell T7910 has:
  • PCIe 3.0 x4 (x16 mechanical)
  • PCIe 3.0 x16
  • PCIe 2.0 x4 (x16 mechanical)
  • PCIe 3.0 x16
  • PCI 32-bit
  • PCIe 3.0 x16 (only active with dual processors)
  • PCIe 3.0 x16 (only active with dual processors)
The Dell also has:
  • 16 DIMM slots for up to 512 GiB RAM (256 GiB with one processor)
  • Dual optical bays
    • One 5.25" full size, SATA 3
    • One slimline (laptop) SATA 3
  • 8 internal drives
  • NVMe SSD drives
I thought the Mac Pro was designed with Intel processors in mind, since they had PowerPC processors in the Power Macs. I thought the switch from the Power Mac to the Mac Pro was due to the switch from PowerPC processors to Intel processors. Didn’t they only use Intel processors in the Mac Pro? Or did the Mac Pro start out with PowerPC processors?
 

Peace

Cancelled
Apr 1, 2005
19,546
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Space The Only Frontier
I thought the Mac Pro was designed with Intel processors in mind, since they had PowerPC processors in the Power Macs. I thought the switch from the Power Mac to the Mac Pro was due to the switch from PowerPC processors to Intel processors. Didn’t they only use Intel processors in the Mac Pro? Or did the Mac Pro start out with PowerPC processors?

It was.

Apple stated that an Intel-based replacement for the PowerPC-based Power Mac G5 machines had been expected for some time before the Mac Pro was formally announced on August 7, 2006 at the annual Apple Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC).[4][verification needed] The iMac, Mac Mini, MacBook, and MacBook Pro had moved to an Intel-based architecture starting in January 2006, leaving the Power Mac G5 as the only machine in the Mac lineup still based on the PowerPC processor architecture Apple had used since 1993. Apple had dropped the term "Power" from the other machines in their lineup, and started using "Pro" on their higher-end laptop offerings. As such, the name "Mac Pro" was widely used before the machine was announced.


Now some of us did use the transition kit which was a cheesegrate tower unit with an Intel CPU.

That was before any Mac's had Intel chips.
 
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jblagden

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This. This would be amazing. Apple HAS to realize that this is a huge market, right?? Especially for professionals.
Yeah! It could be a huge success among professionals and tinkerers alike. From Apple’s perspective, it could even serve as a way to get Windows users over to the Mac, by selling a Mac that can actually be upgraded instead of having to buy a new one whenever more RAM, storage, GPU power or CPU power is needed, and parts can be replaced instead of having to buy a whole new Mac. This could appeal to Mac users on a bit of a budget, tinkerers, and it could even appeal to ecologically-minded Mac users because it’s not just disposable, unlike today's Macs.
 
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goMac

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Apr 15, 2004
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The GPU's firmware in 6,1 is embedded into main EFI of the system not in the GPU... so how can a third party build a video card? How or where are they going to inject GPU's firmware?
and who is to blame for this? :apple:

The Mac Pro still supports GPUs that have their own onboard EFI ROM. Apple has shipped machines before that loaded GPU ROMs from system EFI, that still supporting cards with dedicated EFI ROMs.

This is silly and has been circled around before.

The bigger issue for third parties is no one wants to do the board is a custom form factor. I don't think Apple is even totally unwilling to license, but no one is interested anyway.
 
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Nermal

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Dec 7, 2002
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This. This would be amazing. Apple HAS to realize that this is a huge market, right?? Especially for professionals.
Was it a huge market last time? In 2003, Apple had a tower with a choice of one or two G4s, four PCI slots, four hard drive bays, two 5.25" bays, four RAM slots, multiple GPU options, gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, optional AirPort... starting at $1299. Despite that, I don't believe that they sold very well (but I could be mistaken!).
 
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goMac

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Was it a huge market last time? In 2003, Apple had a tower with a choice of one or two G4s, four PCI slots, four hard drive bays, two 5.25" bays, four RAM slots, multiple GPU options, gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, optional AirPort... starting at $1299. Despite that, I don't believe that they sold very well (but I could be mistaken!).

The late model G4 was the closest thing to an XMac we've had. It was good for prosumer stuff, even games. But as a professional machine it was pretty rubbish.

I believe that was around the time Steve took the stage at an Intel conference and announced he was switching Pixar to Intel. Great home machine but horrible Pro machine.

The G5 was really the first time Apple was back in the actual workstation market since the G3.

On topic: I don't think Apple is going back to a tower design.
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
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Was it a huge market last time? In 2003, Apple had a tower with a choice of one or two G4s, four PCI slots, four hard drive bays, two 5.25" bays, four RAM slots, multiple GPU options, gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, optional AirPort... starting at $1299. Despite that, I don't believe that they sold very well (but I could be mistaken!).
Price.
 
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goMac

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I really would like to have an option for our nMPs, so if you could bring some evidence it would be great.
Thank you in advance for your good will.

Like I said, I don't think it matters. No third parties are going to produce one anyway. Even if I bother to come up with evidence it's not going to give you what you want.

FWIW I've heard directly from the inside that the Mac Pro was built to be able to take GPU upgrades, possibly from third parties, but again, without any interest from third parties, it's entirely irrelevant.

Also, importantly, I've never heard that meant Nvidia GPUs. I believe the GPU bridge in the Mac Pro is only suitable for Crossfire.

There were plans for another Mac Pro to follow after a reasonable amount of time after the 2013, and that's when Apple was planning on dealing with the whole GPU upgrade thing. But that never happened, so GPU upgrade details never happened.
 

Plato65

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Jan 3, 2017
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There were plans for another Mac Pro to follow after a reasonable amount of time after the 2013, and that's when Apple was planning on dealing with the whole GPU upgrade thing. But that never happened, so GPU upgrade details never happened.

I'm sure Apple would not have invested the money & effort to develop the nMP form factor unless they really did at the time plan to use it as a platform for several years with multiple updates. It's the only way to cover the fixed costs of development & make a profit out of it. But something must have happened that diminished Apple's interest in continuing to invest in the nMP. Problems with breakdowns? Lackluster sales? I don't know. But whatever it was, it seems that Apple has not seen the business case to continue investing in & updating the nMP. Given that and the continuing migration of pros away from Mac, it's unlikely that the business case for another round of massive investment in a new form factor is there, suggesting that a new Mac Pro is unlikely to ever appear.

Related discussion in this pod cast:
http://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2017/01/26/ep-179
 
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jblagden

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I'm sure Apple would not have invested the money & effort to develop the nMP form factor unless they really did at the time plan to use it as a platform for several years with multiple updates. It's the only way to cover the fixed costs of development & make a profit out of it. But something must have happened that diminished Apple's interest in continuing to invest in the nMP. Problems with breakdowns? Lackluster sales? I don't know. But whatever it was, it seems that Apple has not seen the business case to continue investing in & updating the nMP. Given that and the continuing migration of pros away from Mac, it's unlikely that the business case for another round of massive investment in a new form factor is there, suggesting that a new Mac Pro is unlikely to ever appear.

Related discussion in this pod cast:
http://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2017/01/26/ep-179
Do you think the age of the upgradable Mac has ended? And all future Macs will be more like Apple’s current lineup (sans Mac Pro)?
 

goMac

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I'm sure Apple would not have invested the money & effort to develop the nMP form factor unless they really did at the time plan to use it as a platform for several years with multiple updates. It's the only way to cover the fixed costs of development & make a profit out of it. But something must have happened that diminished Apple's interest in continuing to invest in the nMP. Problems with breakdowns? Lackluster sales? I don't know. But whatever it was, it seems that Apple has not seen the business case to continue investing in & updating the nMP. Given that and the continuing migration of pros away from Mac, it's unlikely that the business case for another round of massive investment in a new form factor is there, suggesting that a new Mac Pro is unlikely to ever appear.

There's a lot of things. Sales probably aren't super. There is a lack of focus. The form factor means they have to be very picky on what parts they can use for a 7,1. A 7,1 does exist within Apple, so it's not that they just planned to abandon the Mac Pro.

My understanding is that they thought the 6,1 was going to have huge sales which would have created a whole upgrade market dedicated to it. Would have taken care of GPUs (with the details on how to upgrade worked out later) and SSDs. As it is, there are no GPU upgrades, and pretty sparse options for SSDs. The sales and ecosystem they thought they would get never appeared.

I don't think this is the end of the Mac Pro. I've said in other threads that Apple is waiting on AMD's Vega. But the 6,1 didn't go how they expected.

Should also point out this isn't limited to the Mac Pro. Almost every other product except for the iPhone (and just maybe the MacBook Pro) is in disarray right now.
 

Plato65

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Jan 3, 2017
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Do you think the age of the upgradable Mac has ended? And all future Macs will be more like Apple’s current lineup (sans Mac Pro)?

I have no insider knowledge or expertise. I was just thinking through the business case and have started to think that if Apple didn't see a case to offer even a tiny bump for the nMP, then how would they justify a large investment in an entirely new form factor.
 
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goMac

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I have no insider knowledge or expertise. I was just thinking through the business case and have started to think that if Apple didn't see a case to offer even a tiny bump for the nMP, then how would they justify a large investment in an entirely new form factor.

Like I said, a 7,1 exists inside Apple.

But they're not changing the form factor. You'll never see a tower Mac again. Has nothing to do with cost. That's the product strategy.
 
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koyoot

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Jun 5, 2012
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Like I said, a 7,1 exists inside Apple.

But they're not changing the form factor. You'll never see a tower Mac again. Has nothing to do with cost. That's the product strategy.
I agree that it will never be a tower again. But I do not believe it will be also current form factor. IMO at least they will allow for GPU replacements, in small form factor computer.
 

jblagden

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Aug 16, 2013
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I have no insider knowledge or expertise. I was just thinking through the business case and have started to think that if Apple didn't see a case to offer even a tiny bump for the nMP, then how would they justify a large investment in an entirely new form factor.

What about the classic Mac Pro form factor? Or do think they won't return to it because it might look like they're admitting that the old form factor was a mistake? Or because they won't make as much money off upgrades? Or because they think it's an eyesore?
 

Plato65

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Jan 3, 2017
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Like I said, a 7,1 exists inside Apple.

But they're not changing the form factor. You'll never see a tower Mac again. Has nothing to do with cost. That's the product strategy.

Lots of stuff exists inside Apple, but it doesn't mean it will ever come out. I sincerely doubt there will ever be a Mac Pro again. There was a post somewhere on this forum that Intel took last orders for some of the Xeons used in MacPro6,1 last fall and manufacturing will end soon, so the MacPro6,1 is unlikely to be sold past the end of this year. Will there be a replacement announced at WWDC in June? Apart from people like us discussing things on this forum (a very small number), a lot of the potential clients have moved on.
 
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goMac

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I agree that it will never be a tower again. But I do not believe it will be also current form factor. IMO at least they will allow for GPU replacements, in small form factor computer.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. I could be wrong, but everything I've heard is that yes, this design is meant to last for 10 years.

Lots of stuff exists inside Apple, but it doesn't mean it will ever come out. I sincerely doubt there will ever be a Mac Pro again. There was a post somewhere on this forum that Intel took last orders for some of the Xeons used in MacPro6,1 last fall and manufacturing will end soon, so the MacPro6,1 is unlikely to be sold past the end of this year. Will there be a replacement announced at WWDC in June? Apart from people like us discussing things on this forum (a very small number), a lot of the potential clients have moved on.

My impression is still (again) that Apple is waiting on Vega for a Mac Pro. I simply mentioned that a 7,1 exists in response to the idea that Apple isn't investing at all in the Mac Pro. Even if it's never released (which again, I doubt), they've still been willing to put some effort into a 7,1.
 
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Appleaker

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Apple officially replaced PCIe slots with 6 Thunderbolt ports.

The high bandwidth ports allows for multiple PCIe chassis and making this external means that the user is not limited to the Mac chassis for PCIe devices.


That's Apples view, but I strongly disagree because this adds significant cost and a mess of external boxes, along with any other external devices you may have, wired up to your Mac Pro.

As for upgrading the graphics card, Apple have a great financial opportunity here to offer upgrades as they would be the exclusive sellers and it would be proprietary. Personally, I agree that they should just make Mac Pro a tower again.
 
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Plato65

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Jan 3, 2017
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My impression is still (again) that Apple is waiting on Vega for a Mac Pro. I simply mentioned that a 7,1 exists in response to the idea that Apple isn't investing at all in the Mac Pro. Even if it's never released (which again, I doubt), they've still been willing to put some effort into a 7,1.

Since iOS development can only be done on a Mac, Apple needs to have some Macs on which big software companies like Adobe, Microsoft, Autodesk, etc. can do software development. Whether that will be an iMac, an "iMac Pro", or something else, I don't know. (I doubt they'll open iOS development to other platforms.) But I'm very doubtful there will ever be a Mac Pro that will again be the default tool for creative pros.
 

Appleaker

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-We need a Mac Pro TOWER (not the tiny, non-upgradeable trashcan thing).
-We need hardware that's normally user-upgradeable to not be soldered onto the logic board.

While I agree that it needs to be a tower again, the CPU, RAM, and internal storage are all upgradeable, while the GPU is upgradeable externally.
[doublepost=1487205038][/doublepost]
Do you think the age of the upgradable Mac has ended? And all future Macs will be more like Apple’s current lineup (sans Mac Pro)?
Yes, it's a massive mistake given the financial opportunity upgradeability has for them, such as selling first party storage upgrades. Part of it is gaining more internal space, part of it is reducing the upgrade cycle, part of it is preparing for future (i.e. thinner) form factors.
[doublepost=1487205719][/doublepost]
I agree that it will never be a tower again. But I do not believe it will be also current form factor. IMO at least they will allow for GPU replacements, in small form factor computer.
Well it may be more suitable for GPU upgrades and PCIe enclosures given the number of Thunderbolt 3 ports 7,1 has, but I don't think they have plans to change the form factor. However I hope, like probably every other Mac Pro customer, that they bring back PCIe slots but in a similar form factor - it doesn't have to be as big as the tower Mac Pros.
 
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