leekohler
macrumors G5
If that's all you care about, tune in to your local AHL game. No one said the players are "innocent", but you tell me what you would say to your employer if they asked you to take such a cut.
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The NHL 2012 off-season thread. Lockout over!
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If that's all you care about, tune in to your local AHL game. No one said the players are "innocent", but you tell me what you would say to your employer if they asked you to take such a cut.
I don't even think there is a local AHL team here. Besides, I want to watch the best, which is the NHL. The league that I've been watching for over 30 years.
At this point, it is what it is. The 50/50 split is where they need to be, and the NHL offered that. I know their offer isn't perfect, but it's a place to start. The PA makes themselves look just as greedy as the owners by not working from that offer.
Now it's entirely possible that what the PA came back with is just as reasonable but I have my doubts based on Bettman's post-meeting press conference. He's not one to show his emotions in public, but he was clearly dejected, and I don't think he was acting that way purely to manipulate the media/fans.
leekohler
macrumors G5
However, if Bettman really gave a rat's ass about the game, he'd figure out a better way to negotiate than imposing lockouts THREE TIMES on his watch. That's pathetic, and says far more about Bettman than it does the players.
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
+1, This, Exactly, Wakarimasu!
The players can't get paid this amount anywhere else to do this same thing so they better rethink their negotiating position. Of course, the owners don't really have any options either to field hockey teams at this level. BUT - they have deeper pockets.
leekohler
macrumors G5
Let's see- whenever Bettman doesn't get his way, he imposes a lockout. Do you honestly think this will be the last time with his record? No. He'll do it again and again. If the players don't stand up to it this time, he'll rely on this strategy after every agreement expires. It has to stop sometime.
Sorry, but Gary Bettman isn't a cliche evil cartoon character. To say that he doesn't care about the game is inaccurate and completely naive.
He's a lawyer and negotiator, and to think that he chose to go the route of a lockout 3 times because he wanted to and it was purely his choice, is also being naive.
There's a lot of money involved, and Gary is simply doing his job, which is trying to protect his employers' investments.
I'm not defending him, and I don't agree with everything he has done, but I'm just trying to bring a little reality to the thread.
He's a lawyer and negotiator, and to think that he chose to go the route of a lockout 3 times because he wanted to and it was purely his choice, is also being naive.
There's a lot of money involved, and Gary is simply doing his job, which is trying to protect his employers' investments.
I'm not defending him, and I don't agree with everything he has done, but I'm just trying to bring a little reality to the thread.
leekohler
macrumors G5
Of course there's a lot of money involved. But to say that this is the only way he can ever get anything done is silly and naive too. There could very well be hockey right now while negotiations happen. The lockout is the NHL's choice, bottom line.
Come on man. There couldn't be hockey going on right now without a CBA. I don't think any pro league would play without one.
40% of the players aren't signed to contracts. What rules are their contracts supposed to follow? The old ones? The potential new ones? None?
A multi-billion dollar business would be very irresponsible to operate without an agreement like that.
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
Bettman is a mouthpiece for the owners. So, when you say that "he locked them out" that is the owners. He only does what the owners tell him and has no other serious power. The guy is ultimately a puppet.
And, btw, they will do this every time the agreement expires just like they do in every sport and with every company that works with a union (cars, planes, teachers, FD/PD, etc). It's negotiation -- whoever has the upper hand gets a better deal. Right now they both feel like they have the upper hand. Someone is wrong. We will see who.
leekohler
macrumors G5
Continue with the old until a new contract is agree upon. It's not that difficult. Corporations do it all the time. The last company I worked for did it- worked with clients after a contract expired while a new one was negotiated.
Then at some point, if the owners continue on this path in the future, there will inevitably be more profitable places for players at some point.
because that would constitute them using logic and reasoning, something lacking since NHL2night went off the air..
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
The more I think about this the more I think this is such a bogus argument. Here's why.
The current situation is a perfect example of a co-dependent relationship. The two sides uniquely need each other. If we limit the thought box to "NHL hockey," neither side can function without the other. (it's true that many owners have other businesses and many players can play in other leagues, but not all and certainly not for the same amount of money).
In Lee's example above, the assumption is that the employee would simply walk out the door if that pay cut was "offered." And, that the employee would therefore go get another job for the same amount of money. Equally, the employer could find another suitable employee for the newly offered salary including the pay cut.
In a fair and functioning market that works off of supply and demand where options are abound, this is true. There are multiple possible employers and multiple possible employees. But monopolies do not work off the normal supply and demand curves and unions change the employee relationship. (I'm not editorializing on the value/non-value of unions. Monopolistic behavior is generally illegal unless by government owned companies or professional sports)
In the NHL example there are no other "employees" and there are no other "employers." There is only one of each. They are co-dependent. At some point after the collective league loses a Billion or so dollars they will all start to realize that getting something done is better than nothing.
In the meantime, I'll probably use some of my saved ticket money to go see an NBA game (not my usual deal, but F these guys).
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
It's is true that they could play with no contract but the owners aren't motivated to do that. Corporations have shareholders and cannot just do what they want.
I do find it ironic that the Player's Union finds it acceptable for some people to play in other leagues. They don't have the same pressure of not playing as some of their peers.
Where is that, Lee? No other league can absorb all of the active NHL-ers. And, if they did, it would be in markets that don't have the same capitalization of the US/Canadian market meaning that they couldn't sustain the big salaries. A few players will get bigger jobs but most won't.
And, there won't be an alternate NHL for the same reason that new airlines don't start very often. The barrier to entry is too high. In this case, you need arenas, logistics, etc... no one can afford to do it.
This is all absolutely true but, in my experience, negotiations are often not logical. They are based on emotion and the need to "win." Billionaires are quite often "winners" as are professional athletes. What's going on here has as much to do with ego as it does "getting to what is fair." (Billionaires often win at all costs which is not always the right way to do business. But, can't completely argue with someone that has a billion dollars from the way they do business).
leekohler
macrumors G5
Plenty, as you mentioned, have gone to play elsewhere. Can foreign leagues absorb them all? Nope, but they can probably absorb enough. If the NHL keeps up this MO, they're going to end up shrinking their revenue because newer fans will walk away. I'm sure plenty of leagues overseas would love to have great players and would pay for them eventually.
iJohnHenry
macrumors P6
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
Here's a timely article: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/10/19/khl-is-good-hockey-bad-business/
If the KHL is NHL-lite and many of the arenas only hold ~6000-8000 fans with ticket prices around $20, the money isn't there to pay the players.
If whatever company you work for sold half as much product at 20% of the price your salary wouldn't be the same (or there would be far fewer employees).
Anyway - it's a pointless argument. Maybe a couple of Russians go to the KHL and never come back. Seguin stays in Switzerland because of, well, Swiss girls and a few others defect. 690 players -- no way...
If the KHL is NHL-lite and many of the arenas only hold ~6000-8000 fans with ticket prices around $20, the money isn't there to pay the players.
If whatever company you work for sold half as much product at 20% of the price your salary wouldn't be the same (or there would be far fewer employees).
Anyway - it's a pointless argument. Maybe a couple of Russians go to the KHL and never come back. Seguin stays in Switzerland because of, well, Swiss girls and a few others defect. 690 players -- no way...
I mostly just glanced over the few posts prior.
Here's a great post breaking down 2 of the 3 NHLPA offers in terms of dollars. Supposedly their 3rd was such junk it wasn't worth covering.
Please read, quite a nice summary: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-50-compromise-may-not-matter/article4622895/
Here's a great post breaking down 2 of the 3 NHLPA offers in terms of dollars. Supposedly their 3rd was such junk it wasn't worth covering.
Please read, quite a nice summary: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-50-compromise-may-not-matter/article4622895/
MooneyFlyer
macrumors 65816
I thought it was a nice way of breaking down the numbers.
The closing remarks are quite important as well. Lately most of us (myself included) have been too focused on the numbers based off the NHL's proposal and the PA's response. There's still so many other minor-somewhat major issues that need to be worked out (Olympics being a good example).
The closing remarks are quite important as well. Lately most of us (myself included) have been too focused on the numbers based off the NHL's proposal and the PA's response. There's still so many other minor-somewhat major issues that need to be worked out (Olympics being a good example).
Kurwenal
macrumors 6502a
Amen to this.
I'm going to wear my Ovechkin jersey to the NASCAR race tomorrow. Assuming I survive (which I think is likely to happen, this is Kansas, not Talladega.....), hopefully the karma will help bring about a resolution.
http://www.change.org/petitions/gar...k&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=31908246
sign if you want, but the video is fantastic. If we weren't in a labor dispute, it could be a marketing promo for the game.