The notch is great

[Adamantoise]

Which other laptops on the market have a 1080p webcam with thin bezels?

The goal of the new MBPs were to address the biggest issues:
1. Lack of ports
2. Poor webcam in WFH times
3. Bezels that make it look like its stuck in 2014

Apple fixed all of these with compromises. The notch is a compromise. If Apple didn't think the notch was a compromise, and was merely 'branding', why did they reduce the notch on their newest phones?

Well sensor size and not video resolution is the driving factor to the physical space required by a camera/sensor package. Just because others haven't done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done. You get a tiny enough sensor (Yeah I know bigger = better here, but the point stands) you reduce the requisite surface area.

It's a design statement, and if Apple's design team really wanted to do it with smaller bezels than last generation they could have.

 

[Tech_Mac_Man]

How did the 2021 Dell XPS Laptops were able to get they're bezels this thin but Apple can't...?

 

[SeenJeen]

Well sensor size and not video resolution is the driving factor to the physical space required by a camera/sensor package.

You are underplaying the importance of a lens. A tiny little camera hole is simply not going to let in enough light, regardless of how big the sensor is.

Just because others haven't done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done

OK please submit your resume to Apple because apparently you can defy physics.

How was 2021 Dell XPS Laptops were able to get their bezels this thin but Apple can't...?

View attachment 1870757

720p webcam, and it's worse than the M1 MBA webcam.

 

[UltimateSyn]

How was the 2021 Dell XPS Laptops were able to get they're bezels this thin but Apple can't...?

View attachment 1870757

They used an inferior webcam.

 

[Jakewilk]

The iPhone notch mostly fits within the MacBook's newly thin bezels. The iPhone has had 1080p front-facing video for years, and it has even MORE sensors packed into that small area.

Don't let Apple gaslight you into believing the notch was necessary here. It was not. In a few years, they will shrink it by 20% and call it a "Revolutionary" achievement.

The notch is too wide on the macbook pro, I agree, but the iphone has a lot more depth to work with, which is probably why face ID didn’t make the cut this year. I suspect the size of the notch is the way it is to accommodate face ID in a future iteration.

The notch isn’t a scam or a gimmick (I mean even the suggestion is silly—the machine is a beast heavy on pro user-friendly changes). It’s a feature: reclaiming the otherwise wasted bezel. I would have preferred a hole punch, but maybe we’ll have to wait for OLED for that.

 

[dumastudetto]

How did the 2021 Dell XPS Laptops were able to get they're bezels this thin but Apple can't...?

View attachment 1870757

You'd need to look at how thick the display frame is for a fair comparison. Your picture is useless.

 

[Adamantoise]

You are underplaying the importance of a lens. A tiny little camera hole is simply not going to let in enough light, regardless of how big the sensor is.


OK please submit your resume to Apple because apparently you can defy physics.


720p webcam, and it's worse than the M1 MBA webcam.

Just to be clear, you're saying any implementation of a 1080p webcam on a laptop requires a notch? Lol?

If the compromise is "thick" bezels, just how thick do you think they would have to be? Would you say that a 1080p webcam could be fit in lets say the 2020 Macbooks?

Here is the Samsung Galaxy s8 from 2017... Do you maybe want to rethink your position?

 

[Tech_Mac_Man]

You'd need to look at how thick the display frame is for a fair comparison. Your picture is useless.

If you are looking at your laptop for most of the day that "NOTCH aka Cyclops" will definitely be an eye sore..!!

 

[dumastudetto]

If you are looking at your laptop for most of the day that "NOTCH aka Cyclops" will definitely be an eye sore..!!

You'll get used to it.

I hated it on the iPhone at first, but now it's almost iconic. It bleeds into the experience.

 

[SeenJeen]

Just to be clear, you're saying any implementation of a 1080p webcam on a laptop requires a notch? Lol?

If the compromise is "thick" bezels, just how thick do you think they would have to be? Would you say that a 1080p webcam could be fit in lets say the 2020 Macbooks?

Here is the Samsung Galaxy s8 from 2017... Do you maybe want to rethink your position?

View attachment 1870781

The Galaxy S8 is just over 8mm thick. The MBA at its thinnest point is 4mm thick. The display is a fraction of that thickness.

 

[Pilot Jones]

The notch isn’t the end of the world, but let’s be honest here—it’s bad design. If you could have the new MBPs with or without the notch, we all know what you’d take.

Thank you for making what seems like the only reasonable post I've seen on this website in the past 24 hours.

 

[crazy dave]

Just to be clear, you're saying any implementation of a 1080p webcam on a laptop requires a notch? Lol?

If the compromise is "thick" bezels, just how thick do you think they would have to be? Would you say that a 1080p webcam could be fit in lets say the 2020 Macbooks?

Here is the Samsung Galaxy s8 from 2017... Do you maybe want to rethink your position?

View attachment 1870781

You have to ignore things like sensor size and lens size and the depth of the area it's housed in. A 1080p camera that is that slim with no depth would actually give a worse picture than a larger 720p camera with better lenses and sensors. The pixel count of the sensor is not the only or even the most important measure of camera quality. Please understand that before commenting again and please keep the arrogance to a minimum complaining that others don't know what they're talking about or are talking nonsense when they actually do and they aren't.

You can state: I'd rather have a substantially worse camera, than a notch. You can also state: I'd rather have a substantially thicker lid than a notch. Fine. But it is not a "design" statement beyond needing to house a large lens and decent 1080p sensor. The notch might be able to be smaller than it is, that's why people are wondering if it's meant for a future FaceID implementation, but right now there isn't enough depth space to fit it in the lid.

Let's not pretend that people didn't ask for both better cameras *and* a thinner bezel with the current form factor. The only way to achieve both is a notch.

 

[crazy dave]

Thank you for making what seems like the only reasonable post I've seen on this website in the past 24 hours.

Not that reasonable. It's a compromise design to be sure, but no other design that is physically possible at the moment can get the combination of a reasonably thin lid, a thin bezel, and a better camera than we had before without a notch. And you can't claim people weren't asking for better camera in their MBPs. They were. You can't claim people weren't asking for thinner bezels. They were. Want both simultaneously? The notch is the only solution until Apple can fit under the display cameras and that will probably take longer on the MBP than on the iPhone because of the difference in thickness between the MBP lid and the iPhone body.

 

[SeenJeen]

Let's not pretend that people didn't ask for both better cameras *and* a thinner bezel with the current form factor. The only way to achieve both is a notch.

100% agreed. People are neglecting the fact that the LCD panel inside the display housing takes up space. By cutting out the space, we're afforded smaller bezels and a bigger camera sensor.

I think the person you're replying to is strangely fixated on the fact that Apple chose to go with the iPhone's notch design language to accomplish this, and refuses to believe it has functional application.

 

[Adamantoise]

The Galaxy S8 is just over 8mm thick. The MBA at its thinnest point is 4mm thick. The display is a fraction of that thickness.

It's becoming very apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. Camera modules are not solely responsible for the thickness of a device, are you serious right now?

Furthermore, the point of contention here is that Apple can fit one in the MBP if they wanted to, why are you reciting the existing thickness of the current MBAs to me? Or are you seriously suggesting that Apple adhere to some arbitrary design constraint because ... reasons?

For reference here is what an XPS 15 camera module looks like. Yeah yeah, it's not 720p and it's apparently crappy, but here you are telling me Apple cannot implement a notchless 1080p webcam because the MBA is 4mm thick lol.

 

[SeenJeen]

You're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. Camera modules are not solely responsible for the thickness of a device, are you serious right now?

Furthermore, the point of contention here is that Apple can fit one in the MBP if they wanted to, why are you reciting the existing thickness of the current MBAs to me? Or are you seriously suggesting that Apple adhere to some arbitrary design constraint because ... reasons?

For reference here is what an XPS 15 camera module looks like. Yeah yeah, it's not 720p and it's apparently crappy, but here you are telling me Apple cannot implement a notchless 1080p webcam because the MBA is 4mm thick lol.
View attachment 1870793

You're talking in circles now and are desperately fabricating stories to attempt to save face. You have yet to post even one example of a laptop that has a 1080p webcam that has thin bezels. A 720p webcam that's worse than an M1 MBA webcam is not an example.

 

[Adamantoise]

You have to ignore things like sensor size and lens size and the depth of the area it's housed in. A 1080p camera that is that slim with no depth would actually give a worse picture than a larger 720p camera with better lenses and sensors. The pixel count of the sensor is not the only or even the most important measure of camera quality. Please understand that before commenting again and please keep the arrogance to a minimum complaining that others don't know what they're talking about or are talking nonsense when they actually do and they aren't.

You can state: I'd rather have a substantially worse camera, than a notch. You can also state: I'd rather have a substantially thicker lid than a notch. Fine. But it is not a "design" statement beyond needing to house a large lens and decent 1080p sensor. The notch might be able to be smaller than it is, that's why people are wondering if it's meant for a future FaceID implementation, but right now there isn't enough depth space to fit it in the lid.

Let's not pretend that people didn't ask for both better cameras *and* a thinner bezel with the current form factor. The only way to achieve both is a notch.

First of all, if you want to read arrogance from my posts that's honestly your prerogative *shrug*, I'm not losing any sleep over what crazy dave of MacRumors thinks of me.

If we're going to get detailed then there's technically no such thing as 720p and 1080p "cameras" as you put it, just cameras capable of outputting those resolutions at a certain rate. The pixel count of a sensor isn't even remotely important when it comes to video... Lens max aperture, sensor's dynamic range, it's characteristics in low light and it's AF system are far more important; none of this is news, every one who owns a camera knows these things.

What I'm saying is, a camera module capable of outputting 1080p video could have been accommodated without a notch, and it's silly seeing people trying to come up with reasons as to why this was actually impossible.

 

[Jacob1447]

helpful video explaining the notch...

 

[Adamantoise]

You're talking in circles now and are desperately fabricating stories to attempt to save face. You have yet to post even one example of a laptop that has a 1080p webcam that has thin bezels. A 720p webcam that's worse than an M1 MBA webcam is not an example.

Define thin. For someone that is crying about specifics you have a hard time providing any.

 

[crazy dave]

First of all, if you want to read arrogance from my posts that's honestly your prerogative *shrug*, I'm not losing any sleep over what crazy dave of MacRumors thinks of me.

If we're going to get detailed then there's technically no such thing as 720p and 1080p "cameras" as you put it, just cameras capable of outputting those resolutions at a certain rate. The pixel count of a sensor isn't even remotely important when it comes to video... Lens max aperture, sensor's dynamic range, it's characteristics in low light and it's AF system are far more important; none of this is news, every one who owns a camera knows these things.

What I'm saying is, a camera module capable of outputting 1080p video could have been accommodated without a notch, and it's silly seeing people trying to come up with reasons as to why this was actually impossible.

It isn't what I think of you that matters. Adding toxicity to a forum is not good - simultaneously being wrong is worse.

If you know these things, you wouldn't still be arguing with us. It is not possible to build a *good* camera outputting 1080p resolution smaller than the bezel. It's not silly. It's physics.

 

[bushman4]

Have to admit notch is negligible and gets lost on the big screen
It seems like a well built and well designed laptop

 

[SeenJeen]

Define thin. For someone that is crying about specifics you have a hard time providing any.

As thin as the XPS you keep drooling over.

 

[crazy dave]

You're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. Camera modules are not solely responsible for the thickness of a device, are you serious right now?

Good camera modules require room: depth or width (and yes there is a reason for camera bumps on phones).

Furthermore, the point of contention here is that Apple can fit one in the MBP if they wanted to, why are you reciting the existing thickness of the current MBAs to me? Or are you seriously suggesting that Apple adhere to some arbitrary design constraint because ... reasons?

For reference here is what an XPS 15 camera module looks like. Yeah yeah, it's not 720p and it's apparently crappy, but here you are telling me Apple cannot implement a notchless 1080p webcam because the MBA is 4mm thick lol.

Yes that's exactly what we are telling you. The MBP lids are also thin. You have to have depth or width in a camera. There is next to no depth in a MBP lid. If you want a good camera module, which again, people asked for in the MBP, it needs space.

 

[Adamantoise]

It isn't what I think of you that matters. Adding toxicity to a forum is not good - simultaneously being wrong is worse.

If you know these things, you wouldn't still be arguing with us. It is not possible to build a *good* camera outputting 1080p resolution smaller than the bezel. It's not silly. It's physics.

Who said anything about the bezels needing to be small exactly? If you can quote any of my posts saying that then do so. I'll wait.

I've been maintaining throughout this thread that the choice to have a notch was simply a design statement by Apple (i.e. the notch has become part of their design language) and not necessarily one brought on by technical challenges.

Some are convinced the notch is some feat of engineering to include a 1080p camera; as if the older 2019 MBP couldn't already house one if Apple wanted it to.

 

[crazy dave]

Who said anything about the bezels needing to be small exactly? If you can quote any of my posts saying that then do so. I'll wait.

I've been maintaining throughout this thread that the choice to have a notch was simply a design statement by Apple (i.e. the notch has become part of their design language) and not necessarily one brought on by technical challenges.

Some are convinced the notch is some feat of engineering to include a 1080p camera; as if the older 2019 MBP couldn't already house one if Apple wanted it to.

People have asked Apple to make displays with thinner bezels for years. Most PC makers went that route and ditched the camera entirely or if they didn't, they added a POS. People also asked Apple to make a display with a better built in camera module.

I'll break it down, you can choose two: a thin bezel, a better camera, no notch. If you don't want a thin bezel that's fine, but don't pretend that customers, reviewers, and even competitors hadn't been harping on Apple's thick bezels on their devices for years at this point and don't pretend weren't simultaneously asking for better built-in cameras. Apple agreed with both. Thus: notch.

Personally bezel size doesn't bother me much. I could've lived with thicker bezels. But honestly this is not really any different. In full screen mode it essentially is a thick bezel and in regular mode the task bar goes there. Which yes reduces it's available space, but unless I see it, probably not enough to bother me - especially on the 16". The 14"? Hmmm maybe, unclear unless I see it in person, but probably not.