The Official Doctor Who

[Jaffa Cake]

My thoughts, once again fading out of sight like a vanishing TARDIS...

A pretty decent episode. For me, it didn't reach the heights of the first part, but it was a good episode none the less. Like raggedjimmi, I did think the conclusion left a few unanswered questions, however it wouldn't surprise me if some of these have ramifications in future stories.

Oh, and I'll also agree that the CGI of the gunfire was pretty pants. It was a bit of a pity that after the fantastic matte work and brilliant Beast that the special effects fell down on something so basic.

So... Rose will die in battle, eh?

 

[0098386]

What episode number are we up to now? and are we having the strangely numbered 13th episode again?

I mean how many other shows have 13 episodes?! such an odd number crumbles my British 'we have 6, 10 or 12 episodes per series' mind.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I mean how many other shows have 13 episodes?! such an odd number crumbles my British 'we have 6, 10 or 12 episodes per series' mind.

Don't US series normally run to about 26 episodes? 13 shows is a nice 'half season' that might make selling the programme to foreign markets a little easier.

The Satan Pit was episode 9 – we've got another four to go, namely two stand-alones and the two-part series finale.

 

[~Shard~]

Hi guys, I'm back! Now, onto the white text...

Is he... The Master? When the doctor says "Don't I know you?", and with his beard and everything... hmmm. Though they could just be tricking us. wouldn't be the first time! Glad to see they mentioned Torchwood again. beginning to think they forgot about that!

I really hope he isn’t the Master. I don’t think it’s time yet to bring him back, and although I have never seen that actor perform before, just the few seconds that I did see of him made me think he wouldn’t be the best Master. Plus, I think the timing is wrong – as far as we know, all the Timelords are dead, and to bring one of them back like that, especially only a couple episodes before the big finale, would be weird.

But yes, it was interesting that this guy seemed to know something about the Doctor, and then the Doctor saying, “Don’t I know you?” Hmm, maybe those are the 4 words the Face of Boh was referring to.

And yes, good to see Torchwood mentioned again. Still waiting to see what all comes out of that...

I dunno... There was 1 bit of CG that still looked off. When that soldier guy was shooting at the Ood. It just looked like Photoshop flashes.

I thought the same thing, however I usually let stuff like that go since we’re in “the future” and who knows what types of weapons those were – perhaps those flashes were simply the way the looked when they fired.

1 question though. what was the actual story behind this ep? I mean... did they answer why the planet didn't get pulled into the black hole?

It was part of the trap/prison. They held the beast there, in prison, and if he ever broke free, he would get sucked into the black hole. That was my understanding at least.

I mean they said something about a gravity field but surely theres more than that? Who put the gravity field there? Why imprison the beast when the ancient people could have just thrown the planet into the black hole?

See now those are the things I was wondering about. Who put him there, and why not just cast him into the black hole in the first place?

 

[~Shard~]

A pretty decent episode. For me, it didn't reach the heights of the first part, but it was a good episode none the less. Like raggedjimmi, I did think the conclusion left a few unanswered questions, however it wouldn't surprise me if some of these have ramifications in future stories.

I put this one on par with the first part, for different reasons – I thoroughly enjoyed the whole story.

The one thing that bugged me though was the whole deus ex machina of how the Doctor stumbled upon the TARDIS at the end. I mean really, what are the odds that the TARDIS would fall in that exact spot, down 10 miles, and then another who-knows-how-many miles further into the actual pit, and land within walking distance of the Doctor?

So... Rose will die in battle, eh?

I found this quite intriguing as well. I wonder if they are going to pull another “Christopher Eccelston”? After al, it was supposed to be a surprise the CE was leaving after only 1 season, but that got leaked out. I remember reading articles before this season started about how Billie Piper wasn’t sure if she would stay on for the entire Season 2/28. Then all of a sudden, she was signed up for the complete season. Throw in the fact that companions, on average, only last 2-3 years with the Doctor anyway, and I wonder if Rose will indeed be making an exit in this year’s finale. Any thoughts? Perhaps she sacrifices herself for either the Doctor, or to somehow bring the Timelords back, knowing how much that would mean to the Doctor? It definitely would be dramatic, as that has only happened once before with Adric. Oooh, and he fell victim during a Cybermen story as well – and the Cybermen are rumored to return for the finale! Ah, my head is spinning with possibilities now... Thoughts, anyone?

Wow, this has sure become “The Official White Text Thread”, hasn’t it?

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Go on then, if we're making this The Official White Text Thread™...

The one thing that bugged me though was the whole deus ex machina of how the Doctor stumbled upon the TARDIS at the end.

Yep, that jarred with me, too. I couldn't help but think though that, rather than him just stumbling upon it, perhaps the TARDIS was put there for the Doctor to find? Otherwise it's just all a little too tidy...

IPerhaps she sacrifices herself for either the Doctor, or to somehow bring the Timelords back, knowing how much that would mean to the Doctor? It definitely would be dramatic, as that has only happened once before with Adric. Oooh, and he fell victim during a Cybermen story as well – and the Cybermen are rumored to return for the finale! Ah, my head is spinning with possibilities now... Thoughts, anyone?

It would be dramatic, it would be emotional, and if there's one thing RTD likes it's emotive drama. So you could be onto something...

I read somewhere that Billie Piper is contracted for part of the next series – if this is the case, maybe something nasty happens to Miss Tyler during the end of season finale/Christmas special and part of the arc of the next series is the Doctor trying to find/rescue her? If she does only appear for a few episodes next series, that doesn't mean it's going to be the first few...

Only time will tell.

 

[0098386]

No more white! we've all seen it. Turns out our friend RTD wrote this upcoming episode. which he seems to do for starts and ends to series. So it must be a little bit important.

as for Who basically killing the original Devil, I think that will have a huge ramification to the series, or if we're looking at it through a different perspective - the universe. now this source of evil is dead.

My wild theory? there has to be balance. either something evil will fill the spot or Who has to become the bad guy.

perhaps. I'm probably looking too deeply into this.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

My wild theory? there has to be balance. either something evil will fill the spot or Who has to become the bad guy.

Interesting theory. Carrying on down this train of thought, there have already been instances this series where the Doctor has been compared to a God... what if come the end of the series he ends up being compared to the Devil?

Apparently, much of the action in the end of season two-parter will be taking place at the Torchwood Institute, and what we've seen in The Christmas Invasion and Tooth and Claw suggests the Doctor isn't going to be too welcome in that establishment. It could be that rather than being the hero of the hour, the Doctor may end up being taken for the villain...

 

[Brize]

The one thing that bugged me though was the whole deus ex machina of how the Doctor stumbled upon the TARDIS at the end. I mean really, what are the odds that the TARDIS would fall in that exact spot, down 10 miles, and then another who-knows-how-many miles further into the actual pit, and land within walking distance of the Doctor?

Yeah, that was straight out of RTD's book. It seemed logical and reasonable that the TARDIS would be discovered down the mine shaft, but it couldn't possibly have fallen into the pit because the entrance was closed until the Doctor opened it.

I wasn't as keen on these episodes as the rest of you guys - I thought the performances from David Tennant and Billie Piper were uncharacteristically irritating.

 

[~Shard~]

Yeah, that was straight out of RTD's book. It seemed logical and reasonable that the TARDIS would be discovered down the mine shaft, but it couldn't possibly have fallen into the pit because the entrance was closed until the Doctor opened it.

Precisely - that's what I didn't get as well. Mind you, if unknown entities trapped the devil itself in a pit on a planet orbiting a black hole before time existed, I suppose there might be greater forces at play which could have ensured the TARDIS ended up exactly where it did.

I wasn't as keen on these episodes as the rest of you guys - I thought the performances from David Tennant and Billie Piper were uncharacteristically irritating.

Actually I'd agree with that - Billie does get on my nerves from time to time. As for Tennant, I'm definitely warming up to him more, although I could argue that he still hasn't seemed to develop and convey his own personal style for the Doctor yet. I can describe Pertwee's Doctor, I can describe both Baker's Doctors, I can even describe Eccelston's Doctor, but I'm not sure if could accurately describe Tennant's quite yet.

Regardless, I did thoroughly enjoy this 2-parter and am looking forward to the remainder of the season - some really good stuff lies ahead.

 

[atszyman]

Yeah, that was straight out of RTD's book. It seemed logical and reasonable that the TARDIS would be discovered down the mine shaft, but it couldn't possibly have fallen into the pit because the entrance was closed until the Doctor opened it.

How about a selfless act on the part of the Ood?

We already know that the TARDIS is psychic as was The Beast and the Ood. Would it be possible that the beast hold on the Ood was broken when what's his face got sucked out of the rocket? Maybe they collectively communicated with the TARDIS and sent it to the Doctor?

Precisely - that's what I didn't get as well. Mind you, if unknown entities trapped the devil itself in a pit on a planet orbiting a black hole before time existed, I suppose there might be greater forces at play which could have ensured the TARDIS ended up exactly where it did.

We're still not sure if the Beast was captured before time though. The Beast being psychic may have been lying just to try to get into The Doctor's head. Of course it may be setting the course for a grand series finale sometime in the future where The Doctor manages to travel "before time." Or in the complete recursion to make your head spin, The Doctor travels "before time" and "creates" the universe to bring back the Time Lords and others he swore to protect.

See now those are the things I was wondering about. Who put him there, and why not just cast him into the black hole in the first place?

Maybe the race that imprisoned him were a benevolent race that did not believe in the death penalty. However due to the dangerousness of The Beast they had to put in the contingency plan of the black hole in case of escape.

 

[~Shard~]

Interesting theory. Carrying on down this train of thought, there have already been instances this series where the Doctor has been compared to a God... what if come the end of the series he ends up being compared to the Devil?

Quite interesting. This is a darker Doctor than we've seen before, and the Beast did elude to the fact that the Doctor wiped out his own people (from one point of view at least...)

Apparently, much of the action in the end of season two-parter will be taking place at the Torchwood Institute, and what we've seen in The Christmas Invasion and Tooth and Claw suggests the Doctor isn't going to be too welcome in that establishment. It could be that rather than being the hero of the hour, the Doctor may end up being taken for the villain...

Yes, this will make for a very interesting finale. As we've previously discussed, perhaps Torchwood is somehow responsible. Captain Jack was/is a time traveller too, so perhaps to combat/compete with the Doctor, Torchwood develops their own time travel, however it royally f*cks up the universe because they don't know what they're doing. That could tie into the death of the Timelords, those creatures from Father's Day, the alternate universe of the Cybermen, etc.

How about a selfless act on the part of the Ood?

We already know that the TARDIS is psychic as was The Beast and the Ood. Would it be possible that the beast hold on the Ood was broken when what's his face got sucked out of the rocket? Maybe they collectively communicated with the TARDIS and sent it to the Doctor?

Good theory, I like it. I honestly forget from time to time the whole thing about the TARDIS being alive and psychic. Okay, now I am a little bit more alright with the resolution.

We're still not sure if the Beast was captured before time though. The Beast being psychic may have been lying just to try to get into The Doctor's head. Of course it may be setting the course for a grand series finale sometime in the future where The Doctor manages to travel "before time." Or in the complete recursion to make your head spin, The Doctor travels "before time" and "creates" the universe to bring back the Time Lords and others he swore to protect.

Oooh, deep... I don't know if that would be the case exactly, but one does get the sense that various incidents throughout this season all have a part to play in some grander story which may come to a head in the finale. Throw in there Rose "dying in battle" and the second-last episode being called "Army of Ghosts" (along with the finale called "Doomsday") and I think we're in for quite the treat.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Maybe the race that imprisoned him were a benevolent race that did not believe in the death penalty. However due to the dangerousness of The Beast they had to put in the contingency plan of the black hole in case of escape.

Just to move along that theory a little – given how psychically powerful The Beast was, maybe those who imprisoned it were afraid that if they killed it, its mind would somehow survive and escape (as it nearly did by possessing Toby). By keeping it alive and imprisoned where no one was likely to find it, they could at least keep it contained. As you say, the black hole was there as a back up plan in case anyone was stupid to try and dig him up...

 

[Brize]

How about a selfless act on the part of the Ood?

We already know that the TARDIS is psychic as was The Beast and the Ood. Would it be possible that the beast hold on the Ood was broken when what's his face got sucked out of the rocket? Maybe they collectively communicated with the TARDIS and sent it to the Doctor?

That's a nice little theory, but the contrived ending was still frustrating for me.

We can construct any number of fantastical explanations for this stuff, but that's only satisfying when it's based on a narrative element that encourages speculation.

Programmes like Doctor Who always communicate narrative ambiguity very clearly, so deus ex machina endings can't be explained away that easily.

Besides, if the writer had intended for the Ood to redeem themselves by saving the Doctor, that could have been conveyed in just a few shots and would have been very effective.

Anyway, back to your original theory...

The Ood are only telepathic, not telekinetic, so they would only have been able to communicate with the TARDIS and let it know the Doctor's whereabouts - they wouldn't have been able to move it themselves. Accordingly, the Doctor would have heard the TARDIS materialise in the pit.

 

[0098386]

terribly sorry if this has already been said... and also sorry if it seems a little scatty (I'm always that way when I'm wearing contact lenses )

What if the black hole couldn't be a prison for the Devil? The thing we get from the big red dude (the physical form) is that it's tied up. it's actually stuck there. But it was more than physical, it had embedded itself into the architect guy (sorry about the name). Maybe it's existence leap frogs from person to person. mind to mind spreading the evil. after all, it's his job. and without the physical Devil there anymore there is no way to stop the mental side. it's just going to float about being evil and that, spreading havoc.

... what if the Devil is the Bad Wolf? What if Who really was scared of the Devil because it's implanted something into him. and because time is such a dynamic concept to the Tardis that Bad Wolf acted as a premonition, as an early and unobvious warning that was taken the wrong way?

Didn't the Doctor say, just before entering the Pit "where angels dare not tread" or something, but he bangs on about doing what you want and being adventurous. just another religious reference. and yea, as it's already been said - Who is compared to a God an awful lot.

personally. Who is going to do something dark. just like in Dalek, where the concept of Who and Dalek were reversed on each other, we're going to get something similar again. and it's always when the Doctor is scared.
"Who's afraid of the big bad wolf..."

 

[Jaffa Cake]

That's a nice little theory, but the contrived ending was still frustrating for me...

Programmes like Doctor Who always communicate narrative ambiguity very clearly, so deus ex machina endings can't be explained away that easily.

Like I say, the deus ex machina of finding the TARDIS did bother me. There have been a few instances of some contrived incidents that stick out of otherwise good stories like sore thumbs – granted, the stories need to be moved along but sometimes it seems like a little bit of lazy writing has crept in...

 

[atszyman]

The Ood are only telepathic, not telekinetic, so they would only have been able to communicate with the TARDIS and let it know the Doctor's whereabouts - they wouldn't have been able to move it themselves. Accordingly, the Doctor would have heard the TARDIS materialise in the pit.

I never said the Ood had to move the TARDIS there. Since the TARDIS is alive and telepathic the Ood only needed to tell it where to go, they didn't actually have to physically move it.

 

[Brize]

I never said the Ood had to move the TARDIS there. Since the TARDIS is alive and telepathic the Ood only needed to tell it where to go, they didn't actually have to physically move it.

No, I know you weren't suggesting that the Ood had moved it themselves. My point being that had they done so, it wouldn't have materialised as such, and would therefore have appeared silently. The TARDIS moving of its own accord means that it would have materialised and the Doctor would have heard it, especially in an enclosed space such as the pit.

 

[atszyman]

No, I know you weren't suggesting that the Ood had moved it themselves. My point being that had they done so, it wouldn't have materialised as such, and would therefore have appeared silently. The TARDIS moving of its own accord means that it would have materialised and the Doctor would have heard it, especially in an enclosed space such as the pit.

My bad, I have to learn to read better.

What if The Beast brought the TARDIS down into the pit and somehow used it to improve on it's own psychic powers? He didn't possess Toby or the Ood until after the TARDIS was gone. That would put the TARDIS there before the Doctor was. It is also possible that the Doctor did not hear the materialization over the Beast's roaring, or that the pit/cavern was very large and the Doctor had been much further from the Beast's location than what the editing implied.

This could also lead to a very interesting story arc if the TARDIS is somehow possessed by the Beast...

 

[0098386]

...This could also lead to a very interesting story arc if the TARDIS is somehow possessed by the Beast...

It's alive, so why not? Giving the Beast/Devil the ability to time travel anywhere he wants is just asking for trouble.

 

[atszyman]

It's alive, so why not? Giving the Beast/Devil the ability to time travel anywhere he wants is just asking for trouble.

And given the fact that the Doctor seems to be rarely able to travel to the exact location/time he wants how would they even figure out that it is possessed...

 

[~Shard~]

And given the fact that the Doctor seems to be rarely able to travel to the exact location/time he wants how would they even figure out that it is possessed...

Haha - good point!

I love speculating about all of this, but I think the reality, like it or not, is that this 2-parter is probably not such a crucial episode in terms of setting up the rest of the season, etc. It's just another story (albeit a good one) and if anything, might have been a bit of a lull for the Doctor, giving him time to think about his beliefs, reflect on things, etc., before the final 2 explosive episodes hit, in which he won't have time to sit back and ponder the universe and religon in a cozy warm pit with Satan.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

This just in, hot off the BBC presses – the Beeb have confirmed Billie Piper will leave the show at the end of the current series.

She'll soon die in battle, eh?

 

[~Shard~]

This just in, hot off the BBC presses – the Beeb have confirmed Billie Piper will leave the show at the end of the current series.

She'll soon die in battle, eh?

Thanks for the link Jaffa Cake!

This confirms what I had mentioned above (I'm so smart sometimes ) - that companions only last 2-3 years anyway, that Billie was quoted as saying she would only be around for half the season, etc. Looks like my prediction and reasoning was on the mark! So, looks like it will be the full season, but that we'll be seeing a new companion for Season 29!

And are the Cybermen confirmed for the 2-part finale? The only other time a companion died, it was Adric and it was in a Cybermen story as well. What's their secret for knocking off companions?

 

[Jaffa Cake]

And are the Cybermen confirmed for the 2-part finale? The only other time a companion died, it was Adric and it was in a Cybermen story as well. What's their secret for knocking off companions?

All signs seem to be pointing to a Cyber-finale. I don't think there's been anything official said yet, but there are various clues (like footage of Cybermen being released that wasn't in the earlier two parter, and the fact that Nicholas Briggs – who does the Cybermen voices – is apparently in the credits for the final two episodes).

As for the Cybermen, you're right – they do seem to have a very good record at bumping off companions. You would have thought Rose would be safer than most from their mechanical clutches, what with all the gold chavs wear.