Personally I thought Parting Of The Ways was absolute crap and if they use that bloody highly flawed, unoriginal deux ex machina (predestination paradox) again I will cry. Then I will find Billy Piper shoot her with a dalek gun multiple times...
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The Official Doctor Who
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Metal Zombie said:
I didn't mind it as much as you, but the thing that bothered me was always, how is it that Rose could have the time vortex inside her without dying, and yet it caused the Doctor to "die" (i.e. regenerate)? And if having the time vortex inside of you gives you apparently infinite powers (wiping out all the Daleks, resurrecting Jack) why wouldn't the Timelords take advantage of this capability during the Time War? Why wouldn't one of them have sacrificed a regeneration to absorb the vortex from their TARDIS and wipe out all the Daleks?
I always took it that either Time Lords are more sensitive to the effects of the time vortex (various remarks from the Doctor indicate he's highly sensitive to such things), so the exposure would cause more telling damage to him, even though he apparently held the energies in him for a shorter period of time than Rose did. There's also the fact that possessing the vortex allowed Rose to resurrect the dead Captain Jack, so it's entirely possible that, with the kiss, the Doctor not only absorbed the energies but used them to cure Miss Tyler of any damage she might have sustained.~Shard~ said:
There's also the fact that Eccleston was leaving and Piper wasn't, which probably had something to do with it.
Er, dunno. Strictly speaking, a Time Lord wouldn't need to 'sacrifice' a regeneration – we've seen on a number of occasions that they can be given extra regenerations, so there would be nothing to stop the selfless Time Lord in question being rewarded with a fresh regeneration or two by his grateful peers.~Shard~ said:
Rose was unconscious for an unknown amount of time, while the time vortex was in the Doctor.
Why didn't the time Lords use this ability? Answer - there isn't one, it was just a crap deux ex machina.
Oh and don't forget the predestination paradox. It was impossible for Rose to have placed the Bad Wolf signs to make her, er place the Bad Wolf signs. Doctor Who has never been this poor with cause and effect (bar Day Of The Daleks). Well done RTD! Soon the time travel will be as poor as it is in Star Trek!
Why didn't the time Lords use this ability? Answer - there isn't one, it was just a crap deux ex machina.
Oh and don't forget the predestination paradox. It was impossible for Rose to have placed the Bad Wolf signs to make her, er place the Bad Wolf signs. Doctor Who has never been this poor with cause and effect (bar Day Of The Daleks). Well done RTD! Soon the time travel will be as poor as it is in Star Trek!
Jaffa Cake said:I always took it that either Time Lords are more sensitive to the effects of the time vortex (various remarks from the Doctor indicate he's highly sensitive to such things), so the exposure would cause more telling damage to him, even though he apparently held the energies in him for a shorter period of time than Rose did. There's also the fact that possessing the vortex allowed Rose to resurrect the dead Captain Jack, so it's entirely possible that, with the kiss, the Doctor not only absorbed the energies but used them to cure Miss Tyler of any damage she might have sustained.
There's also the fact that Eccleston was leaving and Piper wasn't, which probably had something to do with it.
I like your first theory actually, and could see some truth in that, however I think your second theory is a little more accurate...
Jaffa Cake said:
Quite true! So there you go, why wouldn't they have done that? Ah, nevermind, I'm just being a picky bastard...
Well, you are the Official MacRumors Bastard so you're well within your rights.~Shard~ said:Ah, nevermind, I'm just being a picky bastard...
I'll add another point about the time vortex thing during The Christmas Invasion (and I think the Children In Need mini-episode too shamefully I missed it
) the Doctor keeps 'burping' time vortexy energy. That suggests that maybe he hadn't completely got the energies of the vortex out of him, and they were continuing to cause damage to his body...
~Shard~ said:Ah, nevermind, I'm just being a picky bastard...
I don't think you're being a picky bastard! It was quite a flaw in the Whoniverse and I am going to try and forget it (and not mention it often on my upcoming Who website) as much as possible. One has to be critical so that people might take note and do it better next time.
And how can you have the time vortex running through you anyway?...
~Shard~ said:
An alternate theory for this occurred to me this morning. What if it isn't having the time vortex inside you isn't what causes the damage? What if it is trying to control it that causes the damage?
Rose took in the vortex and her ideas guided it's path but she really was no longer Rose. The vortex was really in control. When the Doctor kissed her and took it he put it back in the TARDIS, exerting his will over the vortex which caused the damage. It would also make some sense due to humans "weaker" minds we (Rose) could not really do much to control the vortex so the vortex did little to no damage to her. The Doctor on the other hand was trying to put it back (possibly against the will of the vortex).
I'm not sure I believe it but it would fit.
atszyman said:
I don't think we're supposed to be thinking about it this much. It was just poor, poor, poor.
Metal Zombie said:
Of course we shouldn't be thinking about it this much but in the mornings, before caffeine I think all kinds of random thoughts....
I guess the ending didn't bother me too much, until I started thinking about it.
Jaffa Cake said:Well, you are the Official MacRumors Bastard so you're well within your rights.
Well, yes, that's true, thank you...
atszyman said:
That's a good theory. I think we are all probably making too much of this in terms of trying to explain it, but hey, that's what's fun about being hardcore fans such as oursleves.
If we wanted to be critical about evrything though, my oh my would we have a field day with some of the earlier epsiodes - many of the Pertwee ones spring to mind instantly...
Sky Blue said:
It's not a kids show, it's a family show! Like the Simpons. If it was a kids show why do so many adults like it, why has it never been shown at 5pm, why is it known as Sci-Fi? And I know RTD has said it is a kids show (which scared me him saying that) but thats just his opinion. Doctor Who has always been made with kids in mind (like the Simpsons) but you must be intelligent enough to know it isn't just a kids show, stop reading everything RTD says!
I mean why are we all such fans of it at our age? I wouldn't be watching it if it was a kids show.
And whats wrong with the Pertwee era? They never did anything as unexplainable, or poor as the deux ex machine in Parting Of The Ways (bar the paradox that was Day Of The Daleks).
Not a deus ex machina
Metal Zombie
I don't know enough to argue with you about predestination paradoxes (loved Parting of the Ways). But would strongly argue against your assertion that it was a deus ex machina ending. Far from it.
The concept that the TARDIS is alive and sentient was introduced two episodes before in Boom Town. Now THAT is is deus ex machina, and they way it's written is unashamedly so - Russell T Davies says so himself.
You can take it on any level you like (and there are lovely onion-like layers of irony in the resolution of Parting of the Ways) but it is in no way a deus ex machina in the dramatic sense of the term. Yes, it's a 'god from a machine' - the literal interpretation. But in the pure sense of the term as it's used in dramatic criticism (leading characters in a hopeless position and the only thing that saves them is a god coming appearing from nowhere, suspended by wires), absolutely not. What makes it more delicious - and I'm sure Russell knows it - is that he provides a conclusion with a God from a machine that isn't deus ex machina.
Sorry to get all technical about it - and, I say again, I won't argue about your reservations about predestination paradoxes - but I can't let it by without comment. Parting of the Ways is NOT a deus ex machina resolution in the dramatic sense of the term. But it is, very playfully, in the literal sense. And quite deliberately so.
Anyhow, roll on Doomsday on Saturday. Looks immense.
Best to you all
Chris
Metal Zombie
I don't know enough to argue with you about predestination paradoxes (loved Parting of the Ways). But would strongly argue against your assertion that it was a deus ex machina ending. Far from it.
The concept that the TARDIS is alive and sentient was introduced two episodes before in Boom Town. Now THAT is is deus ex machina, and they way it's written is unashamedly so - Russell T Davies says so himself.
You can take it on any level you like (and there are lovely onion-like layers of irony in the resolution of Parting of the Ways) but it is in no way a deus ex machina in the dramatic sense of the term. Yes, it's a 'god from a machine' - the literal interpretation. But in the pure sense of the term as it's used in dramatic criticism (leading characters in a hopeless position and the only thing that saves them is a god coming appearing from nowhere, suspended by wires), absolutely not. What makes it more delicious - and I'm sure Russell knows it - is that he provides a conclusion with a God from a machine that isn't deus ex machina.
Sorry to get all technical about it - and, I say again, I won't argue about your reservations about predestination paradoxes - but I can't let it by without comment. Parting of the Ways is NOT a deus ex machina resolution in the dramatic sense of the term. But it is, very playfully, in the literal sense. And quite deliberately so.
Anyhow, roll on Doomsday on Saturday. Looks immense.
Best to you all
Chris
I understand why it is not a deux ex machina. I think people call it that cos they don't like what happened in that episode and use it to refer to the very ending. I don't like the whole episode because it is one big predestination parodox and Doctor Who doesn't do such cock ups.
Explanation Of Predestination Paradox
A predestination parodox occurred because Rose needed to have placed the Bad Wolf signs (as she does in the future) to make herself place the Badwolf signs in the 1st place (!!!). So in other words her past was shaped by her future, which is impossible (thus the name Predestination Paradox). Time can travel in funny ways in Doctor Who but it can't run backwards in a way to explain this.
The only way for this to have happened in Doctor Who is for an unknown person (The Face Of Boe?) to have placed the Bad Wolf signs across time 1st before she did, therefore making her believe she has to place the signs herself.
Unless that happened, it's just bollocks I'm afraid, and there's no place for it in a Sci-Fi show that prides itself on cause and effect (not effect and cause lol!). Unlike Star Trek and others which have great fun with time travel but are all flawed (I particularly like the 2 part ending to Voyager). And thats why I and many other people love Doctor Who, it is the time travel sci-fi show.
Explanation Of Predestination Paradox
A predestination parodox occurred because Rose needed to have placed the Bad Wolf signs (as she does in the future) to make herself place the Badwolf signs in the 1st place (!!!). So in other words her past was shaped by her future, which is impossible (thus the name Predestination Paradox). Time can travel in funny ways in Doctor Who but it can't run backwards in a way to explain this.
The only way for this to have happened in Doctor Who is for an unknown person (The Face Of Boe?) to have placed the Bad Wolf signs across time 1st before she did, therefore making her believe she has to place the signs herself.
Unless that happened, it's just bollocks I'm afraid, and there's no place for it in a Sci-Fi show that prides itself on cause and effect (not effect and cause lol!). Unlike Star Trek and others which have great fun with time travel but are all flawed (I particularly like the 2 part ending to Voyager). And thats why I and many other people love Doctor Who, it is the time travel sci-fi show.
Metal Zombie said:
Nothing at all, he was my second favorite Doctor actually next to T. Baker.
I just meant that the campy-ness and 70's feel of it was quite evident in many episodes. Then there's the whole "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow!" inside joke...
Metal Zombie said:
Don't count this out yet.
Rose may be the source of some Bad Wolf references but I still think there's another source to be revealed later. The mention of it in Love & Monsters they mentioned Rose's information was wiped out by the Bad Wolf virus and it still seems to pop up every now and again.
Of course I'm rarely correct when making predictions so I could be completely off my rocker....
~Shard~ said:Nothing at all, he was my second favorite Doctor actually next to T. Baker.
He only said "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow!" once in 4 years! Oh and technically you could add a charge to a neutron and then reverse it rofl! So it's not nonsense after all.
At least amongst the frilly shirts it made sense unlike Parting Of The Ways.
atszyman said:
Yeah, we'll just have to wait and see. I'm curious to see what happens when the Doctor meets the Face of Boh one final time, when the Face tells the Doctor those 4 words...
Metal Zombie said:
Oh no, not nonsense, just the circumstances under which he always uttered it.
And I have been watching through all the Pertwee episodes again one by one, and he has used that phrase A LOT, trust me. 
I'm a long-time Doctor Who fan who has been sticking with the new series, even though I find most of it very disappointing. RTD seems to have decided that Doctor Who is about adventure (mixed forcibly with grating "emotion"), whereas for me it was always the mystery and the curiosity of the characters that defined it. The new show is too hyper to unfold the same way the old one did, and it insults my intelligence.
Nine out of ten of my criticisms are for RTD, who I feel has used all his alleged skill to ingratiate Doctor Who to as large an audience as he can (which is part of the BBC's mandate), but failed the far more important, and also mandated, task of nurturing thought-provoking ideas and culture.
Nine out of ten of my criticisms are for RTD, who I feel has used all his alleged skill to ingratiate Doctor Who to as large an audience as he can (which is part of the BBC's mandate), but failed the far more important, and also mandated, task of nurturing thought-provoking ideas and culture.
Yup and old Boa has to turn up at some point. I suspect he is an amazing organism whose huge brain is not effected by time. I.E. his consciousness is at every time, at the same time. A sort of scientifically feasable god if you like. So he is able to be in his future when he is in his past.
Marble said:
RTD has fecked me off over the last year and a bit but things are looking up-
1) In the 1st series his stories ranged from OK to very poor in my opinion. The best stories were by other writers.
2) In the 2nd series I have found his stories to be the best of the all writers and a big improvement on his 1st series stories. Stories by other writers have been poor (shame Gatiss and Moffat didn't repeat their brilliance)
3) Army Of Ghosts is the best new Who so far (and 1st 5-star episode in my opinion) and it appears (fingers crossed) RTD's idea of Doctor Who is about to pay off!
Hope I'm right...
Marble said:
Thanks for the thoughts, it's appreciated.
I prefer the old series as well at the end of the day, but there are many aspects of this new series I enjoy as well. I like that it seems a little more "professional" now, in terms of music, graphics, set design and acting - those elements in the old series were very some times. But you just can't beat the old series. I liked the serial nature of it - it seemed like there were more episodes, and that the stories were longer and more epic. The seasons now seem so short, and an hour just isn't long enough to tell a really cool story many times. There are some aspects of the writing I dislike as well in the new series, and then there's episodes like "Fear Her" and "Love & Monsters", but then again, the old series had its share of eye-rollers as well (Paradise Towers, Happiness Patrol, anyone, just to name a few?)All in all though, I do like the new series - nah, love it
- just in different ways, in some cases. But in the end, it's Doctor Who and it's great to have the series back IMO. That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I am watching through the old series episode by episode, and am thoroughly enjoying it. I'm almost done with Pertwee and can't wait to get back into my favorite Doctor, the 4th. And in case you're wondering, yes, I have every single episode of Doctor Who from 1963-present. My collection is about 180 GB worth of AVIs...
I'd like to see someone top that... - Status