The Palm Pre's UI is peerless in its class.

[shk718]

here is a very interesting article about the "imagined war" between apple and palm. it talks about why apple won't stop the pre from syncing with itunes and goes on to discuss the hype that the pre has and compares it to the zune hype when it first came out. the author makes some intereting points.


http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/30/the-imagined-war-between-apple-and-palm-pre-vs-iphone/

 

[Carniphage]

Yep the so-called "multi-touch patent" ... which was nothing of the sort.

That patent was simply about locking scrolling to one direction, based on the inital angle of your swipe. Read the abstract here.

The patent itself appears to be more broad ranging than that.

Not so unusual. Pretty common in Silicon Valley for engineers to leave and start new companies. It's the backbone of the business.

Jobs did the same thing when he raided Apple of its top Mac engineers and formed the NeXT corporation.

Apple sued NeXT and came out looking stupid, having done nothing but make Apple look frightened of what NeXT could come up with. Jobs will no doubt remember this.

However, times are different. You might be right that Apple could try to use more FUD on Palm. Apple hasn't exactly been a shining beacon of niceness for some time now.

Business = War

I am not sure Apple even have the option to be "nice". Shareholders these days want returns on their investments.

And that Palm wants to point out that they're legally confident. Or.. it could just simply be a feature that an engineer stuck in and not much thought was put into the ramifications. That happens a lot too. Not everything is a plot.

Palm thought enough about the feature to demo it before an audience at "D". Palm are certainly acting like they are very confident. Be interesting to see what happens.

I think the odds of Apple doing nothing-whatsoever are low.

C.

 

[kdarling]

The patent itself appears to be more broad ranging than that.

It appeared to be broader only to those who don't know how to read patents. I pointed out the same day that it was just a small patent. Patent lawyers noted the same thing. Within a day or two, most major news sites had corrected their error.

You see, the only important part is the Claims section. Its unusually large Description section is full of pretty things, but are not patented. It's clearly meant more as a way of Jobs getting his name put on the entire device historically, legally meaningless or not.

I think the odds of Apple doing nothing-whatsoever are low.

If so, it could still take them months to disect a Pre looking for infringements.

 

[Eso]

No. From a legal standpoint Apple HAS to try and defend its patents.

Again, what patents are you talking about? These end-all-be-all patents that you seem to think Palm is blatantly infringing don't really exist.

The patent itself appears to be more broad ranging than that.

It can do much than appear to be something when you actually read it, in which case, no, it isn't. It does also mention swipe-to-advance gesture and a circular motion gesture to rotate the display (not even implemented on the iPhone). All of the gestures are for using "one or more fingers" so it's not even multi-touch. In fact, the only claim Apple has to multi-touch is a trademark on the term.

For your further study:
Details about what it takes to infringe on a patent claim

Palm holds patents that the iPhone appears to infringe upon.

 

[Carniphage]

It appeared to be broader only to those who don't know how to read patents.

Yeah, it's a huge document with very little in it!
It seems more like scent-marking the territory than anything legal.

If so, it could still take them months to disect a Pre looking for infringements.

Depends on whether Apple claim an infringement on some hidden underlying implementation detail, or take issue with something in plain-sight.

C.

 

[Carniphage]

Again, what patents are you talking about? These end-all-be-all patents that you seem to think Palm is blatantly infringing don't really exist.

Eso, I think you are getting carried away by the patent issue.

Apple does not need a patent infringement to sue Palm. All it needs to do is show that an idea found its way into the Pre illegally.

C.

 

[Night Spring]

Apple does not need a patent infringement to sue Palm. All it needs to do is show that an idea found its way into the Pre illegally.

And how would Apple do that? They would need to show that, (1) a former Apple employee A took a specific idea developed by Apple that he had knowledge of to Palm, and (2) the Palm Pre (or an aspect or feature of it) could not have been made without this specific idea. Nebulous claims like, "Oh, we were throwing around ideas about multi-touch (or whatever other feature) when A left Apple for Pre, and look, Pre uses multi-touch!" wouldn't cut it.

 

[firewood]

Apple has patents. Palm has patents. Other than hot air for publicity, the attempted use of alleged patent claims by either party against the other would be more similar to MAD (nuclear war term for Mutually Assured Destruction). In the end, the lawyers would win (billions of dollars in legal fees).

but ianal.

 

[Carniphage]

And how would Apple do that? They would need to show that, (1) a former Apple employee took a specific idea developed by Apple that he had knowledge of to Palm, and (2) the Palm Pre (or an aspect or feature of it) could not have been made without this specific idea. Nebulous claims like, "Oh, we were throwing around ideas about multi-touch (or whatever other feature) when A left Apple for Pre, and look, Pre uses multi-touch!" wouldn't cut it.

Yes exactly.

It might have escaped your notice, that there are a number of mobile software technology companies in a flap, because the iPhone OS has arrived and made their products look quite unappealing. Nokia, Microsoft, Google and RIM are all suddenly looking a little less credible. And none of these companies seem to be in a position to launch a product that is a worthy competitor to the iPhone. (arguably)

And then along comes the long stagnant Palm, having spent years in the wilderness trying to create Cobalt or whatever it is.

Suddenly, in a quite uncharacteristically impressive feat of engineering, Palm produces the very credible and elegant Pre?

How did Palm pull this off when the others had failed?

We discover that much of the team were hired from Apple! The secret sauce is the staff. They did it once. And then they did it again.

Even the most fair-minded person might raise an eyebrow, and privately wonder if the fact that they had jumped-ship from Apple had anything to do with their repeat success in creating a rival product.

Now perhaps when those engineers switched companies, all they took with them was their raw talent. In which case Palm has nothing to worry about.

C.

 

[Eso]

Apple does not need a patent infringement to sue Palm. All it needs to do is show that an idea found its way into the Pre illegally.

(note emphasis)

In the legal world, you can't steal idea if the idea doesn't belong to anyone. An idea doesn't belong to anyone unless they hold a patent on it. It's also not illegal (which is to say it is a civil, not criminal, matter). Patents are what we have been discussing.

Now, if you mean to say that something more than an idea was stolen by Palm, such as particular code, documents, etc., then that would be illegal. I very much doubt that Apple is worried about that being the case. I also don't see how this has bearing on anything that has previously been discussed.

 

[williamgallas10]

The palm pre is not for everyone. If your phone primarily used for entertainment, the pre is not for you. Different markets for different phones. I cant see teenagers, or folks that dont use their iphone for actual productivity going for the pre. I am an iphone user, my brother has the touch, he cant use the iphone because of its limitations and lack of some basics.

 

[kdarling]

In fact, the only claim Apple has to multi-touch is a trademark on the term.

Apple's trademark request #77219819 appears to have been refused:

Current Status: An office action making FINAL a refusal to register the mark has been mailed.

Date of Status: 2009-02-09
Filing Date: 2007-06-30

However, reading their further correspondence, Apple might've tried limited the extent of the trademark enough to get it. I'm not well versed on trademarks. Any trademark lawyers here?

 

[Sesshi]

The fact that it actually has a keyboard (albeit minus numbers - why do they do that?) is cause for celebration.

I like the look of it. Hopefully it has a better radio than the POS iPhone 3G.

 

[Night Spring]

Now perhaps when those engineers switched companies, all they took with them was their raw talent. In which case Palm has nothing to worry about.

But that's what I was trying to say. I'll go even further and say that in addition to their raw talent, the engineers also took their expertise built up from their experience working at Apple. But unless the former Apple employees had an agreement with Apple not to work for a competitor (in which case Apple could sue the former employees, but not Palm), there is no law being broken here. Like Eso said, it's not illegal to "steal" ideas -- only specific codes, documents, etc, or to infringe on a specific patent. So in order for Apple to sue Palm, they have to show that something very specific was stolen or infringed on, not just "You have our former employees working for you, and your product uses the same ideas as ours."

 

[Carniphage]

Redacted

 

[kdarling]

Just look at the last two big names that Apple stole from other companies. Papermaster from IBM for designing cpus, and whats-his-name from Motorola for world sales.

IBM and Motorola sued Apple.

In both cases, it seemed very clear they'll be using information they gained at their previous place of employment.

Yet Apple and IBM came to a settlement. Not sure what happened to the Motorola lawsuite.

I don't think executives love non-competes, since they themselves are often involved in jumping one ship for another

As for proving theft of ideas, that's difficult without paper trails. Some places I've worked at required everyone to keep a daily journal, for instance.

 

[pavvento]

Sure, but why are you comparing Palm's (June 2009) 8GB Pre to Apple's 8GB (June 2007) iPhone. Everyone loves to make this argument, so the Pre is "as good as" 2007 technology...

The people looking at a Pre will be deciding between a (June 2009) 8GB Pre for $299 before rebate and a (July 2009) iPhone - most likely with 16GB for $199 or 32GB for $299.

I'd have to see some of these social butterflies use Synergy. Knowing how many variations of people's names I have, I can imagine it being a frustrating experience to sort out Synergy contacts, at least when first activated.

I agree that the original iPhone and the Pre should not be compared, but I don't think that the arguments listed make the phone subpar. I do not consider the original iPhone to be a subpar phone, nor do I consider the iPhone 3G to be a subpar phone for people living in non 3G areas. The first two comments from the poster had to do with talking and being on the web, which is not possible for every iPhone user.

As far as the kinks with Synergy I'm sure there will be some, but I doubt it will compare to the kinks MobileMe had. To this day I still have problems when pulling up my contacts, from time to time only my Exchange contacts will show up when an OTA 'sync' is taking place. People can live with kinks, people will return for services that don't work.

 

[kdarling]

Who would want the Pre? It is subpar:

1. Can't surf and call at the same time.
2. Can't email and call at the same time.

As others have pointed out, that's a radio limitation with the current CDMA deployments.

The 3G GSM versions of the Pre will do both of those things.

Which is the other upside... the Pre is going to be available next year on all major US carriers, and with more than one model. (The Eos, codenamed Pixie)

 

[179202]

As others have pointed out, that's a radio limitation with the current CDMA deployments.

The 3G GSM versions of the Pre will do both of those things.

Which is the other upside... the Pre is going to be available next year on all major US carriers, and with more than one model. (The Eos, codenamed Pixie)

Having read this whole thread (it rivals Lord of the Rings in length!) this is by far your weakest argument. Talking about a phone that will possibly come out next year whilst ignoring what happens to the iPhone next year (worldwide!) seems to be ignoring the obvious.

Apple's exclusive network deals are disappearing in place of being on more than one network and this will spread to UK and USA sooner rather than later. My guess is that USA will have the iPhone on all networks when the 4G networks are all realised and operating on the same standard.

But alas, all that is speculation - something that should not come into a FACTUAL argument.

I'm enjoying the thread though and you sharing your know-how (you're obviously very experienced in what you do) and regardless of what happens, it will be interesting to see how things play out from this point onwards.

 

[fratboy]

at first when i saw the screen shots i say wow this is nice..then after looking at them a few more times .. i really do not like it anymore.. its seems more of like cartoony than nice.. i will ALWAYS stick with the iphone

 

[Palm Pimp]

Looks like the imagined beef that would cause Apple to block the Pre never happened. Also the UI pretty much stayed the same.

 

[iHalo]

If you had an iPhone, "boiled" would be spelled correctly in that note.

 

[reel2reel]

I'm a Bell customer in Canada and am very sad we don't have the iPhone. I've actually got a Pre waiting for me at the store, but I'm still considering leaving my contract and going to Rogers. I've played around with the display Pre and man is it a miserable UI. I'm spoiled by Apple's elegance (love love love my iPod Touch) and everything about the Pre strikes me as confused desperation. The fact that it would NOT stop trying to check voice mail made me want to crush it into small bits.

Beyond geeks who don't actually use phones for something more than amusement, this phone seems just as crappy as the rest. iPhone killer...

 

[trssho]

I'm a Bell customer in Canada and am very sad we don't have the iPhone. I've actually got a Pre waiting for me at the store, but I'm still considering leaving my contract and going to Rogers. I've played around with the display Pre and man is it a miserable UI. I'm spoiled by Apple's elegance (love love love my iPod Touch) and everything about the Pre strikes me as confused desperation. The fact that it would NOT stop trying to check voice mail made me want to crush it into small bits.

Beyond geeks who don't actually use phones for something more than amusement, this phone seems just as crappy as the rest. iPhone killer...

My problem with it was the speed of the UI, and the plastic feel. I think Pre2 will be worth looking at.

 

[darngooddesign]

Who would want the Pre? It is subpar:

1. Can't surf and call at the same time.
2. Can't email and call at the same time.

The iPhone wasn't able to do that, honestly can't remember if it can now.

3. No visual voicemail.

If Blackberry can get VVM, so can the Pre.

4. Only 8 gigs storage, of which only 7.2 or so is available- just music alone with consume that or more.

I bet there will be a version with expansion

5. Can't download music over 3G- Sprint says it will only allow over WIFI.

Someone will write an unrestrictor.

6. No on screen typing ability- yeah, I know, someone will develop an app- but who knows when it will be or how good it will be. As it stands now, you have to use the keyboard for all typing. Trying looking at a web page in landscape, then having to rotate the phone to up and down, pull out keyboard, type, and then rotate back. Subpar.

Its almost finished.

7. Yeah, it syncs natively with iTunes now, but who knows how long that will last until Apple breaks their hack.

Who knows how long we'll be able to Jailbreak, oh yeah they've been saying that for two years.

I see plenty of them in the wild and the users seem to be very happy with their Pres.