Things you HATE about Macs...

[janstett]

Wow, after reading all of that sounds like the joke is really on you. I would never and I repeat never spend money on something and bring it in my home and hate on it so much. I have bought a lot of things in my lifetime and have very minimal complaints about them, why? Because I am smart with my money and I research before I buy so I'll know what I am buying. It makes zero sense to spend money and complain, complain, complain about what you spent your money on.
After reading all your rants and know you spent money on what you basically can't stand all I can do is laugh.
[...]
As far as the Dock? Of course you just said you hated it but why? What's wrong with it? It's just a place to launch your apps.

First, my Mac does not make a lifestyle statement; it doesn't earn, or lose, friends. It doesn't make me hip or unhip. It's a machine. I am not defined by things that I own or tools that I use. I laugh at those who think they are.

Next it's clear you aren't reading. I already explained why the dock is a train wreck in terms of UI consistency. In fact I used the term "train wreck". Go back and read it. I'll summarize you -- first it's inconsistent because of the two halves split by the divider. What exactly does the divider signify? That's where it gets even MORE confusing. The left half is program shortcuts AND running programs (that is hugely inconsistent and confusing); the right half is stacks AND minimized windows AND special items like the trashcan (also hugely inconsistent). The dock is doing 5 different pieces of functionality in an unclear, confusing manner. As I said, that makes Microsoft's poorly designed Start Menu look brilliant in comparison -- how many Mac users have complained about having to press Start to shut down your system? Now, having said that, I find the dock useful.

I have bought a lot of things in my lifetime and have very minimal complaints about them, why?

I don't know; low standards? You're easy to please? You don't push the envelope? You're not an engineer?

Anywho...

To everybody else, sorry that I've helped turn things in this thread in this direction. I'm still interested in discussing quirks of OSX; maybe Apple will do something about them.

BTW, I saved my Leopard complaints. I think I'll unload them now:

- Broke my Konica-Minolta color laser printer (worked fine with Tiger)
- Broke 802.1x wireless authentication (worked fine with Tiger).
- Uninstalled all my printers on upgrade from Tiger (wtf?)
- Although I was drooling over stacks, it sucks. First, items dragged from the left half of the dock poof when you try to move them into a stack. Then there's the jumble of icons with no way to set your own folder icon over it (I'm using overlay icons in the folder as the first alphabetical item). There's the lack of nested folder traversal in the same menu/window.
- Spotlight no longer searches the entire system (e.g. looking for a kext it is no longer indexed)
- Spotlight in finder windows defaults to system wide (which is dumb, if I'm in a finder window you have the context, I want to search in that window obviously)
- No controls to make the taskbar and apple menu opaque (grrrr).

 

[janstett]

Well you certainly did a good job of allowing that accusation to be made.

No, as soon as I dared criticize the Mac, certain people circle the wagons. Perhaps I should know better and realize the long history of siege mentality in the Mac community would elicit a response if I didn't tap dance around it. However, please point out to me where I said it has to be "like Windows". Some people get so offended at the idea that Windows got something right. And merely leveling the charge isn't good enough; I want a quote.

Right dragging?

Instead of dragging an item with the left (or only) mouse button, drag it with the right. This means you want to do something contextual with it and should give you a menu. Right clicking on an item in OSX gives you a context menu (that's a concession to EEEEEEE-vil Windows right there, no?). Right dragging should drag the item and give you the context menu on its destination. OSX gives you the context menu immediately and doesn't let you drag. This isn't a Windows thing. I was doing it on OS/2 in 1991. This is a case where everybody else is doing it because it makes sense, and Apple is half-doing it. No doubt a result of right clicking not mattering in Apple desktops until recently.

How does that break down? Instead of every window having it's own Menu Bar to waste lots of screen space, the Menu Bar is always contained in one area. An argument can always be made in favor of the current system. The only alternative to the way it works now is a complete fundamental change of a long established functions of the Mac OS. Many people consider it a positive. You're the one thats crying over it... not us.

I already explained it twice. I'll make it thrice. Having MOST of the functionality of an appliction live in the app window, and having SOME of the rest of it living in a different place, is inconsistent and objectively not intelligent. It's only there because Apple did it that way in 1984. (And even then, other operating systems followed suit, such as GEM, AmigaOS, etc., but they have all fallen away to history's dustbin). This is a case of everybody else doing it one way and Apple being different. The model breaks down *especially* when you use multiple displays. It makes NO sense for an application running on a 2nd or 3rd monitor to have to rely on the 1st monitor for the menu. It's not intelligent. It's annoying. It's a lot of unrequired mouse movement and it's illogical. A person seeing a computer for the first time in his life would not think it's a good idea. I think any rational person would say that using Firefox on my 2nd monitor shouldn't require me to return to the first monitor to access the menu. And this isn't the days of 320x240 displays where you can't afford 20 pixels for a menu in the app window.

And if you want to be consistent, then move the min/max/close buttons to the apple menu too. Does that make sense? Why not make every application full screen? Then you could cut down on more wasted space on title bars, borders, and grab handles. Clearly this doesn't make sense. The Apple Menu, IMO, is an artifact of the past that doesnt' make sense if one were designing a new system from scratch.

Stop for a moment and think of how silly you're entire argument is. I don't want a Start Menu, I don't want a maximize button, and I sure as hell don't want a Menu Bar in every window. I'm not drinking Kool-Aid, I actually prefer these things the way they are, not simply "because it's different" - you're right, that would be a silly reason to do anything.

Look, again, everybody is complaining I want things to be "like Windows", and merely by making the charge I'm getting tarred and feathered by some. I'm demanding a quote where I said anything remotely like needing it to be "like Windows" without a rational argument behind it -- i.e. Windows does it and it makes sense.

That's part of the problem here. You're obviously a geek, and so expect there to be 30 ways to do everything and every possible option to be available to you at all times. Most of us are not like that. You're attempting to apply your personal preferences to everybody as if you are some sort of standard. Rest assured, you aren't.

Admitted I'm a geek. So OSX doesn't want the geeks? I guess they should remove the terminal in 10.5.2.

And finally, I know you're calling people "fanboys" because you think it is a tremendously offensive kick in the face, but it really isn't. I can't imagine anybody getting teary-eyed and depressed because some random jerk on the internet calls them that. All it does is highlight the fact that you can't make a sound case in your favor and must resort to name calling, and if anything, it reinforces their beliefs even more.

It's all a flashback to the Guy Kawasaki OS wars IMO. People (you know who) come flying out incensed that OSX dare be criticized and it must obviously be an attack from Windows fans -- and any mention of the W word starts the shrieking war cries. So maybe I reverted to the level of the charge, and seeing things like signatures claiming OSX makes friends and Windows loses friends just reminded me of that era, and then everything gets lost in the scrum. So for that, I'm sorry.

But for suggesting OSX isn't perfect and could use improvements; and that some things that it has always done are outright indefensible, I will never apologize. Sorry. I hope that's good enough for this conversation to continue.

 

[Brianstorm91]

How many Mac users have complained about having to press Start to shut down your system?

Haven't they changed it to the Windows icon in Vista now?
If my memory serves me right..
Anyway, it's just a side-note.

 

[adamfishercox]

Look, janstett, I think what's coming across here is that you are used to Windows and so are under the mindset of computers "should" work a certain way. It's not that you want it to be like Windows, just that you are used to Windows and you use Windows as your standard to judge against.

 

[dpaanlka]

I'm demanding a quote where I said anything remotely like needing it to be "like Windows" without a rational argument behind it

Here you are:

I already explained it twice. I'll make it thrice. Having MOST of the functionality of an appliction live in the app window, and having SOME of the rest of it living in a different place, is stupid and inconsistent. It's only there because Apple did it that way in 1984. Again this is a case of everybody else doing it one way and Apple being different. The model breaks down *especially* when you use multiple displays. It makes NO sense for an application running on a 2nd or 3rd monitor to have to rely on the 1st monitor for the menu. It's not intelligent. It's annoying. It's a lot of unrequired mouse movement and it's illogical. I think any rational person would say that using Firefox on my 2nd monitor shouldn't require me to return to the first monitor to access the menu. And this isn't the days of 320x240 displays where you can't afford 20 pixels for a menu in the app window.

Your argument for this is that "it doesn't make sense" - what about it doesn't make sense? I'll tell you what doesn't make sense - having an exact duplicate of the same Menu repeated on your screen 20 different times. You're saying that your preference to not move your mouse an extra inch overrides my preference to not having wasteful duplicates of the same menu attached to every Window. And you're main reasoning? Everyone else does it that way of course!

You say it's inconsistent, when actually, it's more consistent - the Menu Bar is always located in one location, no matter what (although, in System Preferences you can select any one of your displays to hold the Menu Bar).

With the Apple's single Menu Bar system, only one Menu Bar is ever shown - the only one that you can use. You cannot interact (or do anything) with Menu Bars drawn in inactive Windows, so what is the point of drawing them? All it does is waste space, add to an unsightly cluttered interface, and leave open the potential to either confuse or distract users.

And changing that wouldn't be a simple "tweak" over the current system either, as you seem to be suggesting - it would require a pretty major change of the OS, all Apple software, and 99% of third party software ever written. Is that really worth it? No, of course not. The goal is to simplify, not complicate. That is what the Mac OS has always been about.

What it comes down to is this; the personal preferences of Windows users is not a good enough reason to make a dramatic change to a long established metaphor of the Mac OS and throw off millions of Mac users who are familiar with this system and prefer it this way. Too confusing for you? Not "flexible" enough for you? Physically taxing mouse movement leave you feeling tired? Too bad. Apple's goal should rightfully be to please Mac users, not Windows users.

In the end, you're the one crying while the fanboys are enjoying their Macs.

 

[janstett]

Here you are:

That doesn't say I want it to be like Windows for the sake of it. It just points out that Apple's decision is counter to the ENTIRE REST OF THE INDUSTRY. Sometimes it doesn't make sense for a car to have side wheel drive, windows made from rice paper, fueled by Kerosene, and have a shift lever on the ceiling. Sometimes design features fall into a standard place for a reason, because it just makes more sense than anything else. Try again please.

Your argument for this is that "it doesn't make sense" - what about it doesn't make sense?

OK, do you want to go for round #4?

I'll tell you what doesn't make sense - having an exact duplicate of the same Menu repeated on your screen 20 different times. You're saying that your preference to not move your mouse an extra inch overrides my preference to not having wasteful duplicates of the same menu attached to every Window. And you're main reasoning? Everyone else does it that way of course!

No, my main reasoning is that it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE to disperse an application's functionality all over the place. Especially in a multi-monitor environment. If Apple was the only computer company left it still wouldn't make sense.

Would you want a keyboard where to hit the function keys you had to get up and walk 6 feet away? Of course not, you want all the controls in an easy to reach place. Would you want a car that requires you to open the hood to start it and then get back in to drive? Of course not. You want all your controls in easy, close reach. Why is this different with the screen real-estate of an application window? This seems to be pretty basic user interface design here, I'm not saying anything radical. Good user interfaces keep all the controls within easy reach.

Let's go to another practical example.

Let's say I have a home theater setup and I attach a Macbook to my HDTV and it's not in display clone mode. I start up a DVD on my HDTV and I go to my couch with my remote keyboard to enjoy my flick. Now, stupidly, to use any menu items on DVD Player that aren't duplicated on the control panel window, well I can't do it on my HDTV, nooooo that would be too easy and worse it would be evil because Microsoft does that; I have to get up and walk over to my Macbook's display, make my selection, and then walk back to my couch. Pretty dumb, eh? Makes no sense.

To me, I'm sorry, but these are reasoned and logical arguments. Suggesting that saving a few pixels is good (why again?), does that matter in 2008?

Let's pretend a spaceman arrived from Mars and the first computer he sees is a Mac. Would he think it's a good idea? Probably not.

I've given you two reasons why the disembodied menu bar is bad (Firefox on 2nd display, DVD playback on HDTV). Give me a case where the disembodied Apple menu saves time and makes life easier. Cause I just don't see it.

You say it's inconsistent, when actually, it's more consistent - the Menu Bar is always located in one location, no matter what (although, in System Preferences you can select any one of your displays to hold the Menu Bar).

OK, then put all of the UI controls there, so whenever you want to do anything with an application it's in the same place. At least then it would be consistent. Bad, but consistent.

Too bad. Apple's goal should rightfully be to please Mac users, not Windows users.

That kind of mentality is why Apple had 3% marketshare for a decade.

Apple's goal should rightfully be to please COMPUTER USERS, not Windows users, and maybe not some Mac users. They finally get this while some people here don't. Keeping the converted happy doesn't grow the market. Ditching a legacy design decision in order to make a broader user base happy may piss off some die-hards, but if it's better for everyone, maybe it's the right thing to do.

Let's look at the ghastly inclusion of a right click on the mighty mouse (despite keeping the appearance of no buttons). Did the world spin off its axis, or can you possibly concede that having a right mouse button is a good idea?
See?

In the end, you're the one crying while the fanboys are enjoying their Macs.

I'd say that's because they may not know any better. Plato's cave, if you know what I mean.

 

[adamfishercox]

While you may not say "I wish this was Windows," no matter how sensible the argument is, you never admit that Mac might have a better approach. Then the pull of the "Marketshare Card" solidified the fact that you are really just here baiting people.

 

[snickelfritz]

I wish Apple would move the Dock to it's own layer, similar to Dashboard.
For example, F13 would bring up a full screen Dock and Stacks layer, as opposed to a tiny strip at the bottom or sides of the display.

There is certainly no shortage of dock replacements, but none of them disables the OSX Dock, so you're left with a hidden virtual minefield along the edge of the display.
Ironically, it's my experience in MacOS 7/8/9 that prompted my distaste for the OSX Dock.

 

[janstett]

Read your posts. While you may not say "I wish this was Windows," no matter how sensible the argument is, you never admit that Mac might have a better approach.

What's the title of this thread? Last I checked, it was NOT "Things you LOVE about Macs...". I'm not going to buckle, drink the kool-aid, and say the Mac has a better approach when it clearly does not. If you want to start a thread titled "Things you LOVE about Macs...", I'd be happy to give you a list there too.

Then the pull of the "Marketshare Card" solidified the fact that you are really just here baiting people.

Be fair, I said that in DIRECT RESPONSE to a claim that Apple should only keep existing Mac owners happy. That leads to a tightening death spiral that Apple already tried and it didn't work.

You don't want to hear anything bad about the Mac; therefore I am to be excommunicated.

Settle down. I'm one of you. Think of this as an intervention.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Janstett

I agree with you about the inconsistencies on the Apple toolbar, but I agree with the poster that said you may just be used to a Windows world, and use that as your standard. I do the same thing when going back to Windows. I hate that there isn't an app called "System Preferences" in Windows that is right there and allows me to change much of my computers functionality. It makes no sense to me to have to right click on the desktop to pull up how I want my computer to look, then have to go to "Start" --> "Control Panel" to change my networking preferences.

I work with a lot of people that use second displays and no one has to go back and forth between displays to access the menu-bar menu that often or at all. They usually use short cuts for the main options like "new window" "close window" "new tab" etc.

Not saying that your issue isn't valid, just letting you know that there is probably an overlooked method of getting around that problem.... like the way I put a shortcut on the Windows Desktop that led me straight to the Control Panel and others that lead me to other areas that I have to access now and then, that aren't put in one location to begin with.

p.s. I hate kool-aid.... I can give you a list of things I hate about Apple and the Mac as long as my arm, typed in 10pt font, and single spaced.

 

[dpaanlka]

I'm not going to directly address the Menu Bar issue anymore since we're obviously going in circles and you aren't listening to what the logic behind it is.

Be fair, I said that in DIRECT RESPONSE to a claim that Apple should only keep existing Mac owners happy. That leads to a tightening death spiral that Apple already tried and it didn't work.

Apple's market share has been super low both in good times and in bad times - it hasn't really changed all that much since their "death spiral" until now. The reason Apple had such trouble times in the 1990s was exactly because they weren't pleasing Mac users - too many products that were really expensive (people think they're overpriced now? hah!) and full of proprietary quirks such as ADB, combined with a stagnating operating system and diminishing third party software support led to Apple's troubles... not ignoring the trivial complaints of Windows users. The difference between Mac OS and Winodws has always been a highlight of Apple's strategy, not a limitation.

Saying Apple should focus on conforming to Windows users' interpretation of what is "correct" instead of Mac users just for the sake of market share is pure nonsense.

You don't want to hear anything bad about the Mac; therefore I am to be excommunicated.

Legitimate attempts to find faults in the Mac OS would include things like unreliable Finder operation when connecting to remote servers, installing 2 GB of language translations by default, a really lousy built-in calculator, etc... those are things everybody can agree on. See, I can easily come up with faults in the Mac OS.

Your Menu Bar issue is purely preference, not a genuine fault of the Mac OS... which is why I take issue with it. You're calling for a huge change to the fundamental operation of the Mac OS, and you want it changed for no reason other than preference. Well, I prefer it the way it is, as do others. You seem to suggest that no reason anybody could give you is acceptable, and we're all just crazy fanboys. Well sorry, you're just plain wrong on the Menu Bar issue. Ditto on the zoom-to-fit button. It is not an inability for me to find fault in the Mac OS, it's your inability to accept criticism of your lousy ideas.

P.S. I'm getting sick of all this "we should all love each other" and "every OS has it's faults" rubbish. Windows sucks, sorry - and that comes from years of experience with every version since 3.1, and MS-DOS before it. It's not my fault you all feel the need to get defensive over your foolish purchasing decisions of the past.

 

[snickelfritz]

Windows menubar behavior is a flaw in the Windows UI design.
There's no system-wide menubar or other provision for menus, so it is necessary to draw the menubar on every window.

Maya probably has the best menubar system I've seen; press-hold the spacebar and the menu system for the application appears in a quad configuration at the current mouse position.
This is extremely fast and efficient in the hands of an experienced user, and it's totally customizable.

 

[CJRhoades]

Hmm... It seems that this thread has turned from what people hate about macs to why people hate things about macs. How about we go back to the original idea of this thread and keep our thoughts about other peoples opinions to ourselves. I disagree with many posts on this thread but that doesn't mean I have to post back a mean reply saying why that person is not correct and that they should go back to windows if they hate mac so much. Mac is not a perfect os. None of them are. Every os has it's flaws and design issues so just because somebody thinks one thing, doesn't mean that other people have to write back about how wrong they are.

Thats just my 2 cents.....

 

[mpw]

As Apple either has or surely is about to double it's market share in recent years, wouldn't this mean more than half of current Apple users are recent converts from MS Windows? Seem like democracy if the majority want it the way they're comfortable with, to change a feature of the OS.

 

[dpaanlka]

As Apple either has or surely is about to double it's market share in recent years, wouldn't this mean more than half of current Apple users are recent converts from MS Windows? Seem like democracy if the majority want it the way they're comfortable with, to change a feature of the OS.

I doubt its a majority - more like a loud minority (as is usual).

My MacBook is exploding!!!

EDIT: Well, maybe now we can find out.

 

[mpw]

I doubt its a majority - more like a loud minority (as is usual)...

There's an awful lot of features in OSX that are only used by a minority though, should they be considered superfluous?

 

[snickelfritz]

Apple's marketshare is directly related to the fact that Apple is the sole manufacturer of Macs, and the tight control they exercise over pricing and distribution.
It's ultimately a self-limiting business model that functions best to produce a tightly controlled high quality product that conforms closely to the wishes of Apple's relatively small constituency.

Microsoft Windows is distributed by hundreds or thousands of manufacturers that are bound to license agreements with Microsoft.
Economically, they really have no choice but to install Windows on their machines.
People don't so much choose to use Windows so much as it has simply become a ubiquitous part of personal computing.
It has become a perceived World-wide standard by virtue of the aggressive marketing and distribution model employed by Microsoft, and not really due to any virtues of the system software itself, per se.

 

[fivepoint]

Agreed. Also, I will probably never understand why anyone would want the maximize button to make a window full screen regardless of the contents of said window. The reason for making a window larger is to allow all the content it contains to be displayed at once without scrolling, and that's exactly what the zoom button in OS X accomplishes. It scales the window to fit the content.

This was my BIGGEST problem when I initially switched to a mac. I actually remember calling Apple and asking them why my 'maximize' button didn't work right!

Seriously though... I understand the idea behind the zoom, but the reason I used maximize so often on a PC was to put all of the other windows open on the screen out of my view. I didn't want to see them, so I would maxmize and concentrate only on the content I was dealing with. It made the experience more simplistic, and less cluttered.

Now that I have gotten used to my mac, I don't really miss maximise tha tmuch... In fact, with Expose' I find it doesn't really matter as much as it used to. However, I almost NEVER use the zoom button. I think it's about worthless.

 

[Digital Skunk]

However, I almost NEVER use the zoom button. I think it's about worthless.

I used the zoom feature today to read a phone number written on a sticky from across the room. I couldn't move the computer... I didn't have to I thought... I will just zoom in and read it from across the room.

Not arguing with you, just recalling a moment when the zoom feature was a blessing and very easy to access. Sorry, but Windows doesn't have a feature like the zoom that I know of yet.

 

[adamfishercox]

I used the zoom feature today to read a phone number written on a sticky from across the room. I couldn't move the computer... I didn't have to I thought... I will just zoom in and read it from across the room.

Not arguing with you, just recalling a moment when the zoom feature was a blessing and very easy to access. Sorry, but Windows doesn't have a feature like the zoom that I know of yet.

He meant the "maximize" button.

 

[r.j.s]

Digital Skunk - I think you are thinking of the zoom accessibility feature, not the green "zoom" button.

EDIT: ^^ Beat me to it.

 

[Digital Skunk]

He meant the "maximize" button.

Oh

Digital Skunk - I think you are thinking of the zoom accessibility feature, not the green "zoom" button.

EDIT: ^^ Beat me to it.

Double oh.

I was talking about the zoom accessibility feature though... great feature with easy access.

 

[fivepoint]

I used the zoom feature today to read a phone number written on a sticky from across the room. I couldn't move the computer... I didn't have to I thought... I will just zoom in and read it from across the room.

Not arguing with you, just recalling a moment when the zoom feature was a blessing and very easy to access. Sorry, but Windows doesn't have a feature like the zoom that I know of yet.

Oh no. I definitely like THAT feature...

I was talking about the green button at the top of every window. The 'zoom button' as Apple calls it.

http://www.actsofvolition.com/archives/2004/january/themysterious

 

[adjei7]

These are maybe on the forum already, but I can't be bothered to go through all 380 or so posts to find out, but here are mine.

-Needing Insomniax to close the lid without sleeping
-Finder is not up to par with crappy XP (maybe cos I used it for longer)
-No restore button in Trash
-Safari
-Crappy maximize
-Really really quiet on max volume compared to XP unless I use VLC which amplifies. (Or is it just me?)
-Not being able to customize UI adequately without 3rd party apps (kinda got used to the mac look, but would be nice to have the choice.)
-No NTFS support without 3rd party apps (even though they technically dont have to go there, it would be a courtesy, as a large enough number of mac owners would utilize this)

Mind you, I am comparing all this with XP...

Just read one of the other posts and even my intro is a repeat

Forgive me if this has been posted already, but I didn't feel like reading 14 pages to know if it was..."

K

P.S. Excuse me if i'm in the middle of your argument.

 

[HLdan]

I don't know; low standards? You're easy to please? You don't push the envelope? You're not an engineer?

Wow, now I'm truly sorry for you that you have to stoop so low as to do pathetic things like cut off the rest of what I said that you were quoting me on in order for you to replace the answer to my question with low blow shots at me. Does that make you feel better?

For anyone who wants to know what I said to Janstett that he she was so humble to trim on post #351 to her convenience this is what I actually said on post #335.

"I have bought a lot of things in my lifetime and have very minimal complaints about them, why? Because I am smart with my money and I research before I buy so I'll know what I am buying."

It's obvious to many on this forum thread that you have a hate for what you took the time to spend your money on and it's also obvious that you did zero research or even test out Mac OS X before buying so that's nobody's fault but yours if you are unhappy. Don't blame Apple if you are not a smart shopper.
As I mentioned before it makes zero sense to spend your money on something and have more complaints than praise for it.