I have seen Psycho; it is a terrific, if rather unsettling movie.
Super series of posts, by the way, from @GrumpyMom with a lot of wisdom & some superb advice tendered to the OP.
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Thoughts on difficult family situation?
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I have seen Psycho; it is a terrific, if rather unsettling movie.
Super series of posts, by the way, from @GrumpyMom with a lot of wisdom & some superb advice tendered to the OP.
Stephen,
I have read your posts in this thread and as several others have rightfully surmised, one of the main problems with your marriage has been the lack of proper boundaries.
When one gets married, the husband and wife become one in heart, mind, and soul. That doesn't mean that husband and wife always agree on everything. What it does mean, is that even when times get difficult, both seek to look to one another for strength, comfort, honesty and commitment. And from what I have read in this thread, you haven't been owning up to your duties in these areas as a helpmate, in my opinion.
In regards to the aforementioned brief attributes of a 'one flesh couple,' I believe that your wife is entitled to her feelings and is right to be resentful not only of your parent's actions, but your actions (and unfortunately lack thereof) as well. And instead of being someone that she looks to draw strength, comfort, honesty and commitment from, it appears, that you have come to make her feel as if she has to not only weigh her words with her in-laws, but more importantly, with you as well. She is tired of being a referee between you and your parents, as well as you as a couple. In my opinion, she shouldn't have been made to feel like she had to do such. Unfortunately, you put her in that position. And instead of realizing and owning up to the fact that you have been part of the problem in all of this by acknowledging such with yourself and your wife, you have done a fine job of rationalizing that which is irrational, as well as being physically present and emotionally absent in your relationship, in my opinion. And this type of behavior is why your wife made the 'if I could go back...' type comments. Enabling the very dysfunction that is slowing ripping your family apart, is one of the big causes of tension and resentment in the relationship. And in my opinion, you are, and have been an enabler of dysfunction.
It would be great, if those we loved cared enough about someone other than themselves, and were open and receptive to the truth when confronted. Sadly, that is not often the case.
In light of the aforementioned salient, ugly truth, I believe you need to come to the realization, that your parents are not going to change, because they don't want to change. They don't want to change, because they have grown accustom to being blind. They feel the most comfortable in the midst of their dysfunction, because it is the only sanity they have ever known. Take a few moments to really think about what I just said. And for some reason, you feel compelled, in spite of all the negative and hateful actions posited on you over the years, to continue enabling and trying to be the author of a meaningful, respectful and loving relationship between your parents and yourself, as well as your wife and family. In my opinion, you need to ask yourself why that has been the case month after month, and year after endless year.
There comes a point in life, where, for the sake of our own well-being, we have to remove ourselves from that which seeks to tear us down and hurt us, lest we become that which we once despised. And when I speak of that truth to many people, it is often met with attempted type rationalizations of ' I had x happen to me x years ago etc., or the attempted justification of 'as soon as this person does x, y, or z, I can get healing and move forward. And the very things that should have been a catalyst for positive change in one's life, ends up being convenient crutches of excuse, that lead to one walking and living a life of dysfunction. I am not ignoring or minimizing the physical and mental hell that many people have thrust upon them through no fault of their own. Life is not lived as some kind of 30 minute sitcom where everything gets resolved in a timely fashion. Some horrors, for various reasons, can take a lot longer than sitcom length to work through. What I am attempting to convey to you, is that you need to see yourself and your actions for what they are and have been, without the crutches of excuse. Stop and listen to yourself, as well as your wife.
Even if your parents had some kind of epiphany overnight, and awoke completely changed for the better, your inner self would still be in turmoil, and your marriage would still be in trouble. Healing does not come from others. It comes from within. When healing and self-worth is sought from without instead of from within, one does not allow him or herself the gift of being the person that he or she wants and needs to be, because he or she is reaching out for healing and self-worth for the wrong reasons and often times, to the wrong people. Trying to be all things to all people may seem easier to do, than address the situation for what it is in all honesty. Sooner or later, you wake up with your life upside down not knowing where you are going, much less how to get out from underneath the weight that you placed upon yourself.
Keeping a lot of your feelings to yourself, instead of sharing them with your wife, is a form of denial and escapism. You aren't doing your wife any favors nor yourself, by emotionally detaching from that which is. One of the things that kind of behavior does, is cause resentment and feelings of mistrust by your wife. Your wife shouldn't have to beg you to be mentally and spiritually intimate with her. And that kind of intimacy is so much more deeper than the physical. It says to your partner, 'I am open and naked before you because I believe in and trust you and our relationship.'
Which is more important to you, a happy and meaningful relationship with your wife and baby, or hanging on and enabling a toxic relationship with your parents?
I could say a lot more. However, In my opinion, you would be better served taking the energy and time you have used to post about your marriage here, and start working on being open, honest, and vulnerable with your wife and mother of your child.
In a word, IMHO the real problem here is "boundaries." I really cannot fathom why anyone would be pouring out his personal issues on any website forum, much less one which really is meant for discussing Apple products and such...... There is a distinct lack of understanding of and use of boundaries, and this guy is not doing himself or his wife or child any favors by pouring all this stuff out on a a website forum, stuff which should be discussed and handled within a safe and private environment such as a therapist's office -- a situation where the therapist talks with him in person and has the appropriate background and professional training to work with this situation, the opportunity to also at some point speak with the wife, etc., etc.
Frankly, while I know that people who have participated in this thread have been well-meaning and all that, they are still offering their thoughts and suggestions at a remote distance. If I were a moderator here (and I'm not) this is the kind of thread which I would have shut down a long time ago.
Frankly, while I know that people who have participated in this thread have been well-meaning and all that, they are still offering their thoughts and suggestions at a remote distance. If I were a moderator here (and I'm not) this is the kind of thread which I would have shut down a long time ago.
While I share your sentiments about keeping such at the personal level with sensitive subjects such as this, I don't think the thread should be locked, just because it may make some people uncomfortable. As long as the participants are respectful of each other's opinion, I believe the exchange of ideas should continue as it will.
I also agree that the main focus of the site is about Mac related items and news. At the same time, there is more to life than said subject matter. And that is one of the reasons why MacRumors has a politics, religion, and current events forum.
I think since he's not using his real name or giving any personally identifying information he's also not doing too much harm, either. This thread isn't too different from ones I'd seen on the Baby Center "problems with parents and in laws" section over a decade ago. I saw a lot of people really help each other out over there. It wasn't ever going to take the place of therapy or family counseling, but it helped the women and men who couldn't afford or didn't have access to such a resource feel less alone as they figured things out. This thread is separated off from the Mac stuff, so there's also no conflict with the Apple discussions.
I agree he shouldn't be using any of this as a substitute for therapy. That's been my big concern, too, as well as others and we keep reminding him the best he's going to get is brotherly or sisterly level support and encouragement and reminders to work this out with his therapist. He's trying to rush the therapy process. So at this point I and others have been trying to help him chill out and let the therapy do its thing. It looks like there's some progress at about the rate one should expect.
It's hard for young people to have the patience they need for this sort of process because they lack perspective and think if things don't change fast, they're going to be slogging through crap the rest of their lives.
As someone nearing fifty and who has undertaken the changes in my youth I needed to take on to get to where I'm relatively secure, happy, and content, I have enough perspective to at the very least let Stephen know yes, you'll make it to the top of this mountain you're climbing. But you need to go at a slow, steady pace so you don't lose your footing. Rushing it isn't going to make it happen any faster, you're just going to fall more often.
His issues and circumstances are very daunting and difficult to unravel, but so were mine in their own way. What I have to be careful of doing in too much detail is talking too much about my own path because his is different and he has to find his own way. BasicGreatGuy is right, Stephen's healing has to come from within. Nobody can gift him with a shortcut to it.
I think one other thing a lot of us have been trying to convey to him is what husbands and wives should be to each other and do for each other in relatively healthy marriages. He's never gotten to see such a marriage modeled for him. His parents' marriage sounds like a hot mess. His upbringing was atypical and dysfunctional, so while he understands on an intellectual level what normal family life and parental behavior should entail, he seems stuck trying to internalize and materialize that behavior in his own life. We all here can try to give him that sense of what it could and should be, ideally, but only his therapy can help him work out how to attain it.
Conversely, we have to remind him that he relies too much on ideals. We also have to remind him everyone is only human and so the reality is going to be messy as we work toward the best iteration of what we want in a healthy relationship. He tends to idealize how he should be, how his wife should be, and those of us who've been in decently functioning long term relationships are trying to also calm him down and assure him that yes, things will still function if you stop and let each other be humans together-- provided you communicate and break that unhealthy thing you've got going with your parents.
I came from a similarly messed up, complicated background (with key differences) so I can understand how challenging this is for him. But all I can do is let him know it's possible to get to the top of the metaphorical mountain where the view is better. But I can't tell him how--he has to work that out for himself so he can truly grasp and internalize it. Sometimes there are specific things I mention I've done that worked for me. I do that if I think it will help him calm down or slow down enough to recognize the importance of his therapy and stick to it. But I'm well aware the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
So I acknowledge that you're right, ideally, none of this discussion should be taking place. But the real world is very messy and nothing is ideal. We slog through it the best we can.
I wish I could have four hour therapy sessions every other day.
I am all twisted up.
I am so in my head the world around me is like a blur.
Persistent anxiety over the last week is urging me to return to my comfort zone.
I feel detached from everything.
I wish we hadn't taken that confounded trip to my parents house in April, and that I could have had the strength and wisdom to suggest a ban on my mom Before my wife got to the point of wanting to leave.
When I was about ten years old I had plans to go bowling with friends one day, a few hours from where I lived. My mom and younger brother were also going to be out most of that day, and they left shortly before my friends came by to pick me up.
We all ended up in the same ferry line waiting for the same boat, so it was silly that my friends had gone out of their way to pick me up at my house when I could have just met them at the ferry, but that's beside the point.
The point is that from the moment they picked me up, I started getting anxious and panicky about being apart from my mom, and by the time we got to the ferry terminal, I went over to my mom's car in the line and was really upset, and she said "what's the matter?" and I decided to go with them for the day instead of my friends. I was just too afraid and anxious to go bowling with my friends, I had to stay close to my mom.
I remember my mom calling my dad to let him know, and saying "Stephen is happily with me. I'll tell you more later."
I was happier, technically. My anxiety and fear was gone. I was comfortable. Boy did it feel good. It was such a relief.
I think I've told this story before, but maybe not in so much detail.
My anxiety right now is so bad I don't really know what's causing it. My wife still doesn't see me as a solid adult that she can trust, and I can't talk to my mom at all, I'm just floating in nothingness. I don't know what I want. I mean, there's my comfort zone, just like in the bowling story, but I don't think that's what I really want...
Sigh. I've been feeling consistently anxious and disconnected since about Tuesday. I had psychoanalysis on Monday. So I've had to wait this whole week in hell, and don't have therapy again until tomorrow.
I just want to ****ing feel at home with my wife and baby and feel happy!!! Why is that so ****ing hard???
I am all twisted up.
I am so in my head the world around me is like a blur.
Persistent anxiety over the last week is urging me to return to my comfort zone.
I feel detached from everything.
I wish we hadn't taken that confounded trip to my parents house in April, and that I could have had the strength and wisdom to suggest a ban on my mom Before my wife got to the point of wanting to leave.
When I was about ten years old I had plans to go bowling with friends one day, a few hours from where I lived. My mom and younger brother were also going to be out most of that day, and they left shortly before my friends came by to pick me up.
We all ended up in the same ferry line waiting for the same boat, so it was silly that my friends had gone out of their way to pick me up at my house when I could have just met them at the ferry, but that's beside the point.
The point is that from the moment they picked me up, I started getting anxious and panicky about being apart from my mom, and by the time we got to the ferry terminal, I went over to my mom's car in the line and was really upset, and she said "what's the matter?" and I decided to go with them for the day instead of my friends. I was just too afraid and anxious to go bowling with my friends, I had to stay close to my mom.
I remember my mom calling my dad to let him know, and saying "Stephen is happily with me. I'll tell you more later."
I was happier, technically. My anxiety and fear was gone. I was comfortable. Boy did it feel good. It was such a relief.
I think I've told this story before, but maybe not in so much detail.
My anxiety right now is so bad I don't really know what's causing it. My wife still doesn't see me as a solid adult that she can trust, and I can't talk to my mom at all, I'm just floating in nothingness. I don't know what I want. I mean, there's my comfort zone, just like in the bowling story, but I don't think that's what I really want...
Sigh. I've been feeling consistently anxious and disconnected since about Tuesday. I had psychoanalysis on Monday. So I've had to wait this whole week in hell, and don't have therapy again until tomorrow.
I just want to ****ing feel at home with my wife and baby and feel happy!!! Why is that so ****ing hard???
Stephen, it's good that you're very mindful of how you're feeling. I encourage you to continue expanding your mindfulness- the conscious and objective processing of how you're feeling and why- taking a step back from yourself. You seem to be good at recognizing and articulating your feelings, a lot of people have to develop that. Try and think more about why you think you feel these negative emotions as they arise.
On the story of bowling, short version is you were far away from your mom and felt anxious. My question is why do you think that is? Were you worried about her wellbeing? Were you afraid you'd never see her again? Do you feel she gives you protection- if so from what? Was the anxiety actually rooted around something else- like being around the friends you were with, but manifested as wanting to be with your mom? Is it a need for attention (don't feel bad if that's yes, we -all want/need some form of attention/affection).
The ultimate question: What does being around her give you that you don't otherwise have? What does her presence provide you that you don't think you can get else?
I could be completely 100% wrong, but another thing to assess is your relationship of your wife independent of your wife. It sounds like you love your wife, and I assume your child. Another idea is that while you may indeed very much love them, you feel like *deep down* the relationship is not a good fit. Hasnt your relationship changed now having a baby? Not that you don't care for your wife, but maybe you just feel stuck in a relationship you're not truly happy being in for some reason OTHER than the mom issue. But you don't want to face that thought. And perhaps your go to coping mechanism for anxiety in general is your mom so you seek her out. Now there's the conflict of not being to see her.
I don't think you can feel happy because you feel deprived of your mother. I addition to the slew of factors influencing of anxiety I posted the other day, youre probably concerned this mom-ban is rising your relationship with your mom. That you will loose her forever.
It all comes back to boundaries. Healthy expectations of relationships. Clearly yours is convoluted. Probably no fault of your own- it sounds like you had a very overbearing mom.
In addition to your anxiety, it sounds like your might be a little depressed. The two issues often go hand and hand. More and more research is connecting the two conditions once thought as independent in many cases. You also alluded something that I think are OCD tendencies (not sure, it was a while back and vague) which is a manifestation of anxiety.
Hang in there buddy. It's not an easy task what you're doing. But you're trying. It's not unheard of to meet with a therapist 2 or 3 times a week. Do it if you make it work, it sounds like you want and need it and it would probably benefit you now. Consider meeting with a psychiatrist as well to assess the negative emotions you are feeling.
[doublepost=1465791486][/doublepost]Another thought for you here, just looking at this big picture and very simplified.
1. You have repeatedly reported feeling anxious- often for unkown reasons.
2. You have said that being around your mom relieves your anxiety and therefore you seek her out.
It sounds like maybe a big factor in driving the unhealthy neediness for your mom is underlying anxiety. Where that anxiety stems from is a long, deep, dark rabbit hole so let's not worry about the source at the moment- that's what therapy is for anyways.
So what if your anxiety disappeared entirely. Poof. Maybe you don't even know what no anxiety feels like. Is it possible you'd be less inclined to be so attached to your mom?
Anxiety is awful- it's fear. Feeling Anxiety for an unkown reason isn't good. It's debilitating, depressing. Physically I healthy in fact.
And now that you can't see your mom, your coping mechanism for anxiety, the anxiety is worse. So then you still can't see your mom, and the anxiety gets even worse. See how the cycle.
I'd suggest talking to a psychiatrist about treating your anxiety, along with your therapist. I think it might help you deal with the present situation and the work you're doing to get to a better place. Explore and Use the tools available at your disposal!
On the story of bowling, short version is you were far away from your mom and felt anxious. My question is why do you think that is? Were you worried about her wellbeing? Were you afraid you'd never see her again? Do you feel she gives you protection- if so from what? Was the anxiety actually rooted around something else- like being around the friends you were with, but manifested as wanting to be with your mom? Is it a need for attention (don't feel bad if that's yes, we -all want/need some form of attention/affection).
The ultimate question: What does being around her give you that you don't otherwise have? What does her presence provide you that you don't think you can get else?
I could be completely 100% wrong, but another thing to assess is your relationship of your wife independent of your wife. It sounds like you love your wife, and I assume your child. Another idea is that while you may indeed very much love them, you feel like *deep down* the relationship is not a good fit. Hasnt your relationship changed now having a baby? Not that you don't care for your wife, but maybe you just feel stuck in a relationship you're not truly happy being in for some reason OTHER than the mom issue. But you don't want to face that thought. And perhaps your go to coping mechanism for anxiety in general is your mom so you seek her out. Now there's the conflict of not being to see her.
I don't think you can feel happy because you feel deprived of your mother. I addition to the slew of factors influencing of anxiety I posted the other day, youre probably concerned this mom-ban is rising your relationship with your mom. That you will loose her forever.
It all comes back to boundaries. Healthy expectations of relationships. Clearly yours is convoluted. Probably no fault of your own- it sounds like you had a very overbearing mom.
In addition to your anxiety, it sounds like your might be a little depressed. The two issues often go hand and hand. More and more research is connecting the two conditions once thought as independent in many cases. You also alluded something that I think are OCD tendencies (not sure, it was a while back and vague) which is a manifestation of anxiety.
Hang in there buddy. It's not an easy task what you're doing. But you're trying. It's not unheard of to meet with a therapist 2 or 3 times a week. Do it if you make it work, it sounds like you want and need it and it would probably benefit you now. Consider meeting with a psychiatrist as well to assess the negative emotions you are feeling.
[doublepost=1465791486][/doublepost]Another thought for you here, just looking at this big picture and very simplified.
1. You have repeatedly reported feeling anxious- often for unkown reasons.
2. You have said that being around your mom relieves your anxiety and therefore you seek her out.
It sounds like maybe a big factor in driving the unhealthy neediness for your mom is underlying anxiety. Where that anxiety stems from is a long, deep, dark rabbit hole so let's not worry about the source at the moment- that's what therapy is for anyways.
So what if your anxiety disappeared entirely. Poof. Maybe you don't even know what no anxiety feels like. Is it possible you'd be less inclined to be so attached to your mom?
Anxiety is awful- it's fear. Feeling Anxiety for an unkown reason isn't good. It's debilitating, depressing. Physically I healthy in fact.
And now that you can't see your mom, your coping mechanism for anxiety, the anxiety is worse. So then you still can't see your mom, and the anxiety gets even worse. See how the cycle.
I'd suggest talking to a psychiatrist about treating your anxiety, along with your therapist. I think it might help you deal with the present situation and the work you're doing to get to a better place. Explore and Use the tools available at your disposal!
I'm not afraid of losing my mom. I was really excited about the six-month ban idea.
I get anxious when my wife says bad things about my mom, because I'm still wired to defend my mom and to care about her over my wife. This would be true regardless of who my wife was. I was just looking through some old emails from my mom in order to print some out to take to psychotherapy tomorrow, and some of the old anxiety came up because I was reading these emails and thinking "Gosh she's just trying to be nice and trying to connect, why did my wife have to be so hard on her?" Of course it took a long time to get to the point where my wife hated her, and throughout that time I would dismiss my wife's feelings and defend my mom and give everything she does a pass.
Regarding my relationship with my wife independent from my parents, it's very hard for me to assess that because of how emotionally bonded to and influenced by my parents I still am. Even my dad has great influence over me. If he says bad things about my wife, it's hard for me to not feel like he's right on a gut emotional level, even if I know better in my mind. It's like my family of origin is a cult that sets their own rules, and I'm supposed to always fall in line with them and let their compass set my orientation for me. So the fact that my parents both disapprove of my wife at this point is obviously quite a challenge for me.
When my wife and I interact with other friends and community, separate from my parents, who are respectful towards us, adoring of my wife, and very supportive of our marriage, I feel very good with my wife. I thought it through a Lot before proposing to her, and I decided to do it because I wanted marriage and family, and prior to meeting her, the notion of meeting someone compatible enough with me that I could imagine having children with them was like a distant, probably unattainable fantasy. Then she came along and I could see myself being a husband and father, which let me tell you, was no small thing. If I had passed her up, it could have easily been another ten or fifteen years, if ever, that I would have come across another woman as pure, virtuous, wholesome, clear headed, and grounded as her. That combined with the fact that from the beginning she was 100% certain we were meant to be together, was what guided me in the direction I ultimately chose. Within a couple weeks of meeting we both felt like we were probably going to get married.
Now, when I was 17 years old, I started dating a girl, and about two weeks into the relationship I was visiting her house, and I was very much in love with her, but suddenly I was overcome with a hollow feeling. It was a feeling intertwined with thoughts about the ultimate meaninglessness of life, and about how I wasn't doing enough with my life. And then it turned towards her and made me feel like, if being with this girl didn't prevent that feeling from arising, that must mean she's not right for me, or that I don't want to be with her.
So I have a history of anxious and hollow feelings leading me to push against whoever I am in a romantic relationship with, because they failed to fill that void, so to speak. And I brought a lot of stress into that relationship because I would argue with her about things and try to change her thoughts whenever they differed from my mom's thoughts. No kidding. She was 16 years old. Poor thing. She didn't know what hit her. I put this burden on her to basically love me like a mother would, and she just got completely overwhelmed.
Anyways, so with everything that's happened with my wife and I these past nine months, when I feel anxiety it will often involve a feeling of disconnect from my wife, not necessarily disconnect from my mom. When I feel really connected to and close to my wife, I usually feel pretty good. But then I'll feel bad again if I feel like my wife is pushing my mom away, etc. Though I've come a very, very long way in accepting the truth about my mom and understanding that my wife's feelings are valid.
Just this evening my wife brought up this time that my mom told her that her butt had gotten bigger after she got pregnant. I got anxious because my wife was saying that my mom would "always make digs at her," but I felt strongly that my mom was just trying to connect, however awkwardly. I ultimately had to make peace with my wife feeling whatever she felt about it, regardless of how strongly I felt that my mom had good intentions. But those are the kinds of times when I'll feel anxious regarding my mom.
Most of the time lately when I feel anxious, it's because of feeling disconnected from my wife, or at least related to that. I can get really burrowed up deeply in my head, so deep that I'm completely disconnected from reality, and I can make myself panic and get really anxious about all sorts of stuff, but then when I come back out of my head and connect with my wife, everything feels good. John Gottman says that you need to have twenty positive interactions for every one negative one, for a relationship to function well. I think our ratio has been more like one positive for every one negative, so it wouldn't be odd to feel iffy about the relationship anyway. But I always feel good when we connect, and we're making a real effort to limit how much we talk about this stuff and to get that ratio back in balance.
It's interesting though, that you bring up that idea, because my wife has been telling me the last couple days that I need to go on a nature retreat by myself for a couple days in order to help "figure out how I feel about her." What do you think?
[doublepost=1465798781][/doublepost]Well, when I reassured her that I have no intention of divorcing her, she eased up on her idea about the nature retreat.
I get anxious when my wife says bad things about my mom, because I'm still wired to defend my mom and to care about her over my wife. This would be true regardless of who my wife was. I was just looking through some old emails from my mom in order to print some out to take to psychotherapy tomorrow, and some of the old anxiety came up because I was reading these emails and thinking "Gosh she's just trying to be nice and trying to connect, why did my wife have to be so hard on her?" Of course it took a long time to get to the point where my wife hated her, and throughout that time I would dismiss my wife's feelings and defend my mom and give everything she does a pass.
Regarding my relationship with my wife independent from my parents, it's very hard for me to assess that because of how emotionally bonded to and influenced by my parents I still am. Even my dad has great influence over me. If he says bad things about my wife, it's hard for me to not feel like he's right on a gut emotional level, even if I know better in my mind. It's like my family of origin is a cult that sets their own rules, and I'm supposed to always fall in line with them and let their compass set my orientation for me. So the fact that my parents both disapprove of my wife at this point is obviously quite a challenge for me.
When my wife and I interact with other friends and community, separate from my parents, who are respectful towards us, adoring of my wife, and very supportive of our marriage, I feel very good with my wife. I thought it through a Lot before proposing to her, and I decided to do it because I wanted marriage and family, and prior to meeting her, the notion of meeting someone compatible enough with me that I could imagine having children with them was like a distant, probably unattainable fantasy. Then she came along and I could see myself being a husband and father, which let me tell you, was no small thing. If I had passed her up, it could have easily been another ten or fifteen years, if ever, that I would have come across another woman as pure, virtuous, wholesome, clear headed, and grounded as her. That combined with the fact that from the beginning she was 100% certain we were meant to be together, was what guided me in the direction I ultimately chose. Within a couple weeks of meeting we both felt like we were probably going to get married.
Now, when I was 17 years old, I started dating a girl, and about two weeks into the relationship I was visiting her house, and I was very much in love with her, but suddenly I was overcome with a hollow feeling. It was a feeling intertwined with thoughts about the ultimate meaninglessness of life, and about how I wasn't doing enough with my life. And then it turned towards her and made me feel like, if being with this girl didn't prevent that feeling from arising, that must mean she's not right for me, or that I don't want to be with her.
So I have a history of anxious and hollow feelings leading me to push against whoever I am in a romantic relationship with, because they failed to fill that void, so to speak. And I brought a lot of stress into that relationship because I would argue with her about things and try to change her thoughts whenever they differed from my mom's thoughts. No kidding. She was 16 years old. Poor thing. She didn't know what hit her. I put this burden on her to basically love me like a mother would, and she just got completely overwhelmed.
Anyways, so with everything that's happened with my wife and I these past nine months, when I feel anxiety it will often involve a feeling of disconnect from my wife, not necessarily disconnect from my mom. When I feel really connected to and close to my wife, I usually feel pretty good. But then I'll feel bad again if I feel like my wife is pushing my mom away, etc. Though I've come a very, very long way in accepting the truth about my mom and understanding that my wife's feelings are valid.
Just this evening my wife brought up this time that my mom told her that her butt had gotten bigger after she got pregnant. I got anxious because my wife was saying that my mom would "always make digs at her," but I felt strongly that my mom was just trying to connect, however awkwardly. I ultimately had to make peace with my wife feeling whatever she felt about it, regardless of how strongly I felt that my mom had good intentions. But those are the kinds of times when I'll feel anxious regarding my mom.
Most of the time lately when I feel anxious, it's because of feeling disconnected from my wife, or at least related to that. I can get really burrowed up deeply in my head, so deep that I'm completely disconnected from reality, and I can make myself panic and get really anxious about all sorts of stuff, but then when I come back out of my head and connect with my wife, everything feels good. John Gottman says that you need to have twenty positive interactions for every one negative one, for a relationship to function well. I think our ratio has been more like one positive for every one negative, so it wouldn't be odd to feel iffy about the relationship anyway. But I always feel good when we connect, and we're making a real effort to limit how much we talk about this stuff and to get that ratio back in balance.
It's interesting though, that you bring up that idea, because my wife has been telling me the last couple days that I need to go on a nature retreat by myself for a couple days in order to help "figure out how I feel about her." What do you think?
[doublepost=1465798781][/doublepost]Well, when I reassured her that I have no intention of divorcing her, she eased up on her idea about the nature retreat.
I honestly don't see how you can figure out what you feel about anyone or anything when it seems like you've had some sort of brain chemistry imbalance for years now.
I'm no doctor but I think you need to see one who can determine if you need to go on antidepressants of some sort. Not that those don't come without side effects, mind you. Mine did, which is why I stayed on it only long enough to put a plan in place to replace unhealthy worrying and a tendency to cycle negative thoughts over and over again in my head with a more normal attention span to events going on around me.
To give you an example of how trapped in my head I was, if I were to hear of or read news someone got tortured and murdered, I could think of little else for weeks and barely function. The news would just cycle through my head endlessly. I was probably like this because a lot of my relatives had been war refugees and we lost many to torture and murder, so when post pregnancy hormones went haywire on my brain chemistry, my mind retreated to obsessing over a familiar trauma. Even though I was not a direct crime victim or war refugee myself, I was diagnosed with PTSD in addition to post partum depression. Even before the pregnancy, when I think back on how I reacted to a lot of things in my early life, I think there was something always a little tiny bit off about me.
Again, I'm not qualified to diagnose you. The fact I see something vaguely familiar in the description of your feelings and problems and ones I dealt with mean nothing without a professional evaluation. I'm just very concerned for you and hope that when it comes to your mental health, somebody who IS qualified is ensuring all the bases are covered. Definitely let your therapist know you fell you need more frequent sessions. I was always communicating with my doc to make sure I was not in danger from side effects and that I was coping on my own.
How are you sleeping? I've asked you that before but you didn't reply or I missed it. A lot of new parents sleep extremely poorly and that exacerbates depression and anxiety. In that case you probably don't need medication, just more sleep.
Anyway, the reason I'm chiming in with the concern about your brain chemistry is that feeling of disconnection from reality you mentioned. I'm actually going through that right now myself. I was just talking to my husband about it yesterday. It's very similar to what I had when I went in for treatment for the PTSD and PPD. I feel like I'm not really here or I'm experiencing everything underwater or through a barrier. It's really weird. I don't have anxiety though. Just very detached.
I had zero reaction to a big hairy spider being on me recently. I am a huge arachnophobe, which is an unfortunate phobia for an avid gardening and landscaping enthusiast to have. I'm always jumping and screaming. There's probably a sitcom idea in there somewhere. But in my new detached state of being I was very non reactive to something that normally would send me leaping and screeching a few bad words.
I'm in perimenopause so there probably is an imbalance brewing. But I also just returned from a grueling trip across time zones. I could just be jet lagged and too tired to give a hoot. I'll know which it is after more time passes. I still have my sense of humor, so I'm not too worried yet.
Speaking of which, I also notice you don't respond to joking around or little jibes. That's a red flag to me because I had a massively flat personality at my worst. Again, that's so not me. I'm a walking sitcom character when I'm "normal". But this is just one forum thread so that's a hard thing to judge. For all I know you're very funny away from the computer.
Of course the case could be made that some of the best comics like Robin Williams had depression. But in my experience, people who act as intensely anxious as you do might have something going on with the brain chemistry. Same thing happened to my mom. She was like living with Lucille Ball unless her brain chemistry was off. So I hope someone is looking out for that aspect of your health.
I'm going to mention the elephant in the room because that's the kind of battering ram personality I am. When you talk about why you married your wife, you don't mention falling in love with her or the word love. You speak of her in very positive terms. But the word love is noticeably absent. I'm not going to ask if you love her because I don't think you're in any shape to properly sort through or feel any emotions right now, let alone name them. But it's something to ponder with your therapist. Because if you're trying to get in touch with emotions you never felt to begin with, you're beating your head against a wall. That's not to say your marriage is doomed or was a bad decision.
Heck, I love and respect important life decisions made on the basis of logic and reason, which your decision seems to have been, kinda sorta mostly, from what I can tell. But when it comes to marriage, it needs love. People with clinical depression and other brain chemistry imbalances can't feel an emotion that complex. I couldn't. But after I got help I could. Having chosen my husband with a lot of solid logic and reasoning behind my decision to even date him over anybody else in the first place made love an easy emotion to feel for him when my brain chemistry was capable of it again.
And plenty of people marry for love without any common sense behind their decision and that causes a lot of problems, too. So I'm not passing judgement on your marriage. I'm just pointing out well, like I said, an elephant in the room that at some point will need to be addressed. Or maybe is addressed, just not here. Which is fine. You don't need to be answering to us or telling us any of your business.
I'm no doctor but I think you need to see one who can determine if you need to go on antidepressants of some sort. Not that those don't come without side effects, mind you. Mine did, which is why I stayed on it only long enough to put a plan in place to replace unhealthy worrying and a tendency to cycle negative thoughts over and over again in my head with a more normal attention span to events going on around me.
To give you an example of how trapped in my head I was, if I were to hear of or read news someone got tortured and murdered, I could think of little else for weeks and barely function. The news would just cycle through my head endlessly. I was probably like this because a lot of my relatives had been war refugees and we lost many to torture and murder, so when post pregnancy hormones went haywire on my brain chemistry, my mind retreated to obsessing over a familiar trauma. Even though I was not a direct crime victim or war refugee myself, I was diagnosed with PTSD in addition to post partum depression. Even before the pregnancy, when I think back on how I reacted to a lot of things in my early life, I think there was something always a little tiny bit off about me.
Again, I'm not qualified to diagnose you. The fact I see something vaguely familiar in the description of your feelings and problems and ones I dealt with mean nothing without a professional evaluation. I'm just very concerned for you and hope that when it comes to your mental health, somebody who IS qualified is ensuring all the bases are covered. Definitely let your therapist know you fell you need more frequent sessions. I was always communicating with my doc to make sure I was not in danger from side effects and that I was coping on my own.
How are you sleeping? I've asked you that before but you didn't reply or I missed it. A lot of new parents sleep extremely poorly and that exacerbates depression and anxiety. In that case you probably don't need medication, just more sleep.
Anyway, the reason I'm chiming in with the concern about your brain chemistry is that feeling of disconnection from reality you mentioned. I'm actually going through that right now myself. I was just talking to my husband about it yesterday. It's very similar to what I had when I went in for treatment for the PTSD and PPD. I feel like I'm not really here or I'm experiencing everything underwater or through a barrier. It's really weird. I don't have anxiety though. Just very detached.
I had zero reaction to a big hairy spider being on me recently. I am a huge arachnophobe, which is an unfortunate phobia for an avid gardening and landscaping enthusiast to have. I'm always jumping and screaming. There's probably a sitcom idea in there somewhere. But in my new detached state of being I was very non reactive to something that normally would send me leaping and screeching a few bad words. I'm in perimenopause so there probably is an imbalance brewing. But I also just returned from a grueling trip across time zones. I could just be jet lagged and too tired to give a hoot. I'll know which it is after more time passes. I still have my sense of humor, so I'm not too worried yet.
Speaking of which, I also notice you don't respond to joking around or little jibes. That's a red flag to me because I had a massively flat personality at my worst. Again, that's so not me. I'm a walking sitcom character when I'm "normal". But this is just one forum thread so that's a hard thing to judge. For all I know you're very funny away from the computer.
Of course the case could be made that some of the best comics like Robin Williams had depression. But in my experience, people who act as intensely anxious as you do might have something going on with the brain chemistry. Same thing happened to my mom. She was like living with Lucille Ball unless her brain chemistry was off. So I hope someone is looking out for that aspect of your health.
I'm going to mention the elephant in the room because that's the kind of battering ram personality I am. When you talk about why you married your wife, you don't mention falling in love with her or the word love. You speak of her in very positive terms. But the word love is noticeably absent. I'm not going to ask if you love her because I don't think you're in any shape to properly sort through or feel any emotions right now, let alone name them. But it's something to ponder with your therapist. Because if you're trying to get in touch with emotions you never felt to begin with, you're beating your head against a wall. That's not to say your marriage is doomed or was a bad decision.
Heck, I love and respect important life decisions made on the basis of logic and reason, which your decision seems to have been, kinda sorta mostly, from what I can tell. But when it comes to marriage, it needs love. People with clinical depression and other brain chemistry imbalances can't feel an emotion that complex. I couldn't. But after I got help I could. Having chosen my husband with a lot of solid logic and reasoning behind my decision to even date him over anybody else in the first place made love an easy emotion to feel for him when my brain chemistry was capable of it again.
And plenty of people marry for love without any common sense behind their decision and that causes a lot of problems, too. So I'm not passing judgement on your marriage. I'm just pointing out well, like I said, an elephant in the room that at some point will need to be addressed. Or maybe is addressed, just not here. Which is fine. You don't need to be answering to us or telling us any of your business.
It's true that I have difficulty getting in touch with my feelings, of course. But from all my life experience thus far, I know I love my wife. See my whole life I always was confused about how people talk about falling in love, and how on earth they could know whether they're "in love" or not, and that their minds must have been fooling them, and that I would never be able to be fooled in that way because I'm too aware.
The story of our early months is actually a little complicated, but I felt real joy and happiness flowing through me, and spoke about wanting to marry her within a few weeks of meeting. And I've figured out ways of knowing whether or not I'm in love with someone, even though I don't have the capability of just "knowing" it the way others seem to. I mean it seems pretty obvious why I function this way, I perceive entirely from my mind, so thoughts can say one thing or another, it's arbitrary, they have no way of knowing anything, it's all a story to them. But I've learned how to glean what my feelings are underneath, even if I have little access to them.
Don't worry, I'm not scared of your elephant. I know I love her. But of course I think it would also help me tremendously if I could get more in touch with my emotions. I haven't cried in at least 15 years.
The story of our early months is actually a little complicated, but I felt real joy and happiness flowing through me, and spoke about wanting to marry her within a few weeks of meeting. And I've figured out ways of knowing whether or not I'm in love with someone, even though I don't have the capability of just "knowing" it the way others seem to. I mean it seems pretty obvious why I function this way, I perceive entirely from my mind, so thoughts can say one thing or another, it's arbitrary, they have no way of knowing anything, it's all a story to them. But I've learned how to glean what my feelings are underneath, even if I have little access to them.
Don't worry, I'm not scared of your elephant. I know I love her. But of course I think it would also help me tremendously if I could get more in touch with my emotions. I haven't cried in at least 15 years.
I'm happy to hear this. Because that's great in conjunction with the logic and reason that also went into asking her to marry you. So many people fall in love but put absolutely no other thought into other factors impacting compatibility.
It really does sound like you could have a brain chemistry issue. I hope you are able to find out if you do. I can only talk about my own personal experience and say in MY case, I find it extremely challenging to feel emotions or identify the ones I do feel when my brain chemistry is off for whatever reasons. I think women may be more prone to fluctuations because of our cycle and pregnancies and menopause.
But men of course do also suffer from clinical depression, which makes addressing emotions very challenging, if not impossible. I don't know what might trigger it in men, but I've known a few men who've struggled with it. Some seem capable only of irritation, anxiety and anger when depressed. Others seem flat and detached. Anything more complex than those reactions and feelings seems to elude them without medication. My husband has a male family member who leans toward being angry and irritated. This guy is much more pleasant since he got treated. A whole other side to his personality opened up.
An added - or further - dimension to this is something that I have thought about and been reading about a fair bit, and it is to do with attitudes, expressed emotions, and values supported and reinforced by society which are an awful stronger and deeply rooted than I would have assumed when I was a teenager or young student.
Candidly, I don't think it all just chemistry and hormones; I think some of it is internalised from what is considered appropriate to express in the wider society.
Take anger, for example. An awful lot of men are socialised into expressing emotions solely in terms of anger - which is allowed to them - or, perhaps desire. Other emotions, fear, gratitude, affection, are often denied them, whereas the expression of male anger is allowed, and even encouraged.
Women, on the other hand, - are allowed many emotions but not anger, rage, and fury. Indeed, women are denied permission to express anger, and it is always a source of shocked astonishment to men (and other women) when women explode and erupt in rage, often long suppressed.
Re the OP, over several posts in this thread - and over other threads - I did raise that issue of the 'elephant in the room', the fact that he never wrote of, or spoke of, his wife with affection, warmth, respect or love. This was something that did concern me, as I have been of the opinion that the OP viewed his wife as someone who might fulfil the various voids in his life without once considering what he might do to support her. Long before the appearance of this current thread, this issue had been a concern from earlier threads.
And the fact that the OP's parents supported this view, was, if anything, a cause for further concern.
Anyway, as always, @GrumpyMom an excellent and thoughtful post.
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So I was on my way home from psychotherapy today, ready to just continue the process of reconnecting with my wife and moving forward, and suddenly she texts me, saying that she's almost certain she has either PPD or PTSD or both, and that the months of me putting my mom's feelings first caused issues for her that she doesn't think will ever go away without medication. She said that we could have the best relationship in the world a year from now, but that her brain chemistry has been altered by the post-partum experience she had.
And so we started talking about this stuff again, because I am very anti-drug, and the thought of her being "permanently damaged" and needing medication just did not sit well with me at all. I tried to tell her that things will feel different as we reconnect more, but she said I don't understand how it works, and that her brain chemistry has been altered, and that she's been aware of those issues developing for many months already, and that they actually started getting worse in the last month, post-mom ban.
Sigh. I don't want her to take drugs. She was such a happy, joyous, boisterous person when we met, and she was even that right up until the baby was born and afterwards. It wasn't until a month or two post-partum that the conflict with my mom started really weighing on us. Could that much damage have really been done?
The thing is, she's not going to take any medications while breastfeeding, so it's going to be well over a year before she would consider doing them anyway. So I really hope that we can just reconnect and have a good time together and that by the time our daughter is weaned, she won't feel she needs the drugs anymore. I really really hope so.
So... in the midst of writing this post I went upstairs, and she started telling me about the issues. Apparently she has severe social anxiety now, and doesn't like seeing anybody because she feels like she has to pretend that we're happy. She doesn't see any of her friends, she doesn't contact her family, she was dreading her sister's visit here. I feel horrible.
But when I said "I'm so glad you told me. You're not always going to feel like this, you're not going to feel like you have to pretend once we've reconnected more and have a better relationship again," she did give me a "maybe" look. I just REALLY hope that she'll feel more herself again as we reconnect. What do you think?
And so we started talking about this stuff again, because I am very anti-drug, and the thought of her being "permanently damaged" and needing medication just did not sit well with me at all. I tried to tell her that things will feel different as we reconnect more, but she said I don't understand how it works, and that her brain chemistry has been altered, and that she's been aware of those issues developing for many months already, and that they actually started getting worse in the last month, post-mom ban.
Sigh. I don't want her to take drugs. She was such a happy, joyous, boisterous person when we met, and she was even that right up until the baby was born and afterwards. It wasn't until a month or two post-partum that the conflict with my mom started really weighing on us. Could that much damage have really been done?
The thing is, she's not going to take any medications while breastfeeding, so it's going to be well over a year before she would consider doing them anyway. So I really hope that we can just reconnect and have a good time together and that by the time our daughter is weaned, she won't feel she needs the drugs anymore. I really really hope so.
So... in the midst of writing this post I went upstairs, and she started telling me about the issues. Apparently she has severe social anxiety now, and doesn't like seeing anybody because she feels like she has to pretend that we're happy. She doesn't see any of her friends, she doesn't contact her family, she was dreading her sister's visit here. I feel horrible.
But when I said "I'm so glad you told me. You're not always going to feel like this, you're not going to feel like you have to pretend once we've reconnected more and have a better relationship again," she did give me a "maybe" look. I just REALLY hope that she'll feel more herself again as we reconnect. What do you think?
This morning she says she feels dead inside, and like she feels like throwing up. She showed me articles about C-PTSD and said that's what she has. But she refuses to talk to anybody about it.
For months I had been noticing that she seems like she's losing her spark and zest for life. But this was before my mom was banned, and on some level I think I held it against her that she felt that way, like "come on, it's not fair for you to get depressed just because my mom is going to have a relationship with her granddaughter."
She would "joke" about how she feels dead inside, months ago, even when things most of the time seemed really good and normal.
I don't know what's going to happen if she doesn't talk to anybody about her feelings. It has been a month and a half since my mom has been banned and I have been there for her completely, and in some ways her feelings have gotten worse now. Today she just feels completely empty and dead, not excited by anything. She says she doesn't feel like she can ever again be the happy-go-lucky person she was before.
For months I had been noticing that she seems like she's losing her spark and zest for life. But this was before my mom was banned, and on some level I think I held it against her that she felt that way, like "come on, it's not fair for you to get depressed just because my mom is going to have a relationship with her granddaughter."
She would "joke" about how she feels dead inside, months ago, even when things most of the time seemed really good and normal.
I don't know what's going to happen if she doesn't talk to anybody about her feelings. It has been a month and a half since my mom has been banned and I have been there for her completely, and in some ways her feelings have gotten worse now. Today she just feels completely empty and dead, not excited by anything. She says she doesn't feel like she can ever again be the happy-go-lucky person she was before.
I am not a psychologist, but it seems that this is a case of depression. She's looking at the world through the lenses of depression. I would strongly suggest to contact a psychologist and start from there.
She might also need to breathe some different air, can you organize a nice trip in a natural area?
Huh. I've probably had depression for most of my life and didn't even know it. People always said I looked unhappy, and I always said I felt fine. But I was always distant and thoughtful and only recently began to become aware of how much more alive and energized so many other people seem compared to myself.
We're taking things really slowly now. We've finally cut back on talking about this stuff, and we're just living moment to moment. My wife's chief concern is with caring for the baby, who is still having a great time as usual.
We're taking things really slowly now. We've finally cut back on talking about this stuff, and we're just living moment to moment. My wife's chief concern is with caring for the baby, who is still having a great time as usual.
How egocentric! Sheesh! How interesting that you immediately respond with "I've probably had depression for most of my life....." blah-blah-blah, in response to a post suggesting that your WIFE is dealing with depression. More than likely she is dealing with postpartum depression, a very specific situation --and yes, IMHO she really could benefit from some help. This is a very common situation with women who have just had a baby, especially the first child. You say she is refusing to talk to someone about her feelings......are you truly encouraging her to do so or are you actually in some way subtly discouraging her? Think about that.......
She has postpartum depression only because I was pushing for my mom to have a close relationship with the baby for months, and not respecting my wife's feelings on the matter. She says she now has postpartum depression and social anxiety. It's really sad because she otherwise would not have gotten it, regardless of how common it is. All she ever wanted was to be a stay at home mom, and she was super happy after the baby was born. It was only after months of us arguing about my mom that she says her social anxiety and postpartum depression began to develop.
I have been strongly encouraging her to talk to someone. She says that now is not the time for her to go to a counselor. I believe she did reach out to a friend yesterday, but I'm not certain what ended up happening with that.
I have been strongly encouraging her to talk to someone. She says that now is not the time for her to go to a counselor. I believe she did reach out to a friend yesterday, but I'm not certain what ended up happening with that.
You're not afraid of losing your mom? Never being able to talk to her again? Didnt you say pages back you were afraid your wife would never let you speak to her again?
It's probable, *some* of your wife's resentment has to do with jealousy of your you putting your mother before her own feelings. But that doesn't mean her feelings are necessarily unjustified. I'm sure you both have things to work on surrounding this.
I would do some reading on codependency as this really seems to be a major issue. It sounds like you may also have some anxiety issues, maybe a panic disorder, and I would reccomend consulting with a psychiatrist. Medication can be an aid, but is not a solution. It's also not necessarily meant to be a permanent treatment, it's usually only temporary. Being lost in your own head is never a good place to be. I've been there and its not fun. A life of anxiety is no life at all, and it doesn't have to be that way.
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I honestly don't see how you can figure out what you feel about anyone or anything when it seems like you've had some sort of brain chemistry imbalance for years now.
I'm no doctor but I think you need to see one who can determine if you need to go on antidepressants of some sort. Not that those don't come without side effects, mind you. Mine did, which is why I stayed on it only long enough to put a plan in place to replace unhealthy worrying and a tendency to cycle negative thoughts over and over again in my head with a more normal attention span to events going on around me.
To give you an example of how trapped in my head I was, if I were to hear of or read news someone got tortured and murdered, I could think of little else for weeks and barely function. The news would just cycle through my head endlessly. I was probably like this because a lot of my relatives had been war refugees and we lost many to torture and murder, so when post pregnancy hormones went haywire on my brain chemistry, my mind retreated to obsessing over a familiar trauma. Even though I was not a direct crime victim or war refugee myself, I was diagnosed with PTSD in addition to post partum depression. Even before the pregnancy, when I think back on how I reacted to a lot of things in my early life, I think there was something always a little tiny bit off about me.
Again, I'm not qualified to diagnose you. The fact I see something vaguely familiar in the description of your feelings and problems and ones I dealt with mean nothing without a professional evaluation. I'm just very concerned for you and hope that when it comes to your mental health, somebody who IS qualified is ensuring all the bases are covered. Definitely let your therapist know you fell you need more frequent sessions. I was always communicating with my doc to make sure I was not in danger from side effects and that I was coping on my own.
How are you sleeping? I've asked you that before but you didn't reply or I missed it. A lot of new parents sleep extremely poorly and that exacerbates depression and anxiety. In that case you probably don't need medication, just more sleep.
Anyway, the reason I'm chiming in with the concern about your brain chemistry is that feeling of disconnection from reality you mentioned. I'm actually going through that right now myself. I was just talking to my husband about it yesterday. It's very similar to what I had when I went in for treatment for the PTSD and PPD. I feel like I'm not really here or I'm experiencing everything underwater or through a barrier. It's really weird. I don't have anxiety though. Just very detached.
I'm in perimenopause so there probably is an imbalance brewing. But I also just returned from a grueling trip across time zones. I could just be jet lagged and too tired to give a hoot. I'll know which it is after more time passes. I still have my sense of humor, so I'm not too worried yet.
Speaking of which, I also notice you don't respond to joking around or little jibes. That's a red flag to me because I had a massively flat personality at my worst. Again, that's so not me. I'm a walking sitcom character when I'm "normal". But this is just one forum thread so that's a hard thing to judge. For all I know you're very funny away from the computer.
Of course the case could be made that some of the best comics like Robin Williams had depression. But in my experience, people who act as intensely anxious as you do might have something going on with the brain chemistry. Same thing happened to my mom. She was like living with Lucille Ball unless her brain chemistry was off. So I hope someone is looking out for that aspect of your health.
I'm going to mention the elephant in the room because that's the kind of battering ram personality I am. When you talk about why you married your wife, you don't mention falling in love with her or the word love. You speak of her in very positive terms. But the word love is noticeably absent. I'm not going to ask if you love her because I don't think you're in any shape to properly sort through or feel any emotions right now, let alone name them. But it's something to ponder with your therapist. Because if you're trying to get in touch with emotions you never felt to begin with, you're beating your head against a wall. That's not to say your marriage is doomed or was a bad decision.
Heck, I love and respect important life decisions made on the basis of logic and reason, which your decision seems to have been, kinda sorta mostly, from what I can tell. But when it comes to marriage, it needs love. People with clinical depression and other brain chemistry imbalances can't feel an emotion that complex. I couldn't. But after I got help I could. Having chosen my husband with a lot of solid logic and reasoning behind my decision to even date him over anybody else in the first place made love an easy emotion to feel for him when my brain chemistry was capable of it again.
And plenty of people marry for love without any common sense behind their decision and that causes a lot of problems, too. So I'm not passing judgement on your marriage. I'm just pointing out well, like I said, an elephant in the room that at some point will need to be addressed. Or maybe is addressed, just not here. Which is fine. You don't need to be answering to us or telling us any of your business.
Thanks for sharing your very personal experiences. Hopefully they will be of help to the OP.
Huh. I've probably had depression for most of my life and didn't even know it. People always said I looked unhappy, and I always said I felt fine. But I was always distant and thoughtful and only recently began to become aware of how much more alive and energized so many other people seem compared to myself.
We're taking things really slowly now. We've finally cut back on talking about this stuff, and we're just living moment to moment. My wife's chief concern is with caring for the baby, who is still having a great time as usual.
I understand your anti-drug, but it's best to fully understand the pros and cons of the medications, how they work, what the side effects are (and how prevalent they are), what reasonable expectations are, and how they affect the body. As a clinical psychiatric pharmacist, I spend about 1/3 of my day counseling patients on drugs (1/3 reviewing charts, 1/3 consulting doctors... +clinical research +staff education). I seldom even find myself in the hospital pharmacy or handling pills.
Your wife's decision to start drug therapy is hers alone to make. You should also know there are many drugs that will not affect a breast feeding baby. Zoloft for example is considered one of the best SSRI antidepressants for breast feeding mothers- with 0-insignificant drug detection in the breast milk or baby's blood. Many of these drugs are even considered safe for pregnancy.
I'll say again, for things like anxiety and depression, drugs ARE NOT a SOLUTION. They are a tool, an aid, and require concurrent therapy for best and long lasting results. My motto is if you're looking to recover, don't limit your methods, don't put all your eggs in one basket. You wouldn't go to build a house with only a hammer. You need a saw, wood, nails, shingles, etc.
No one deserves to live in pain. Whether that be physical or mental. If your wife believes and desires the use of medicine to aid her recovery, you should support it IMHO. Otherwise you're simply telling her to suck it up and her feelings mustn't be that bad.
There's a lot of mythology and misconceptions around drugs. Some people think an antidepressant magically makes you feel better, or changed you - it doesn't. Many of these drugs are very safe, have little-no side effects, and are not addictive. Anxiety, Depression, etc are illnesses- assuming they're not justified, they deserve treatment.
I don't know the in and outs of you or your wives health. I'm not in a position to make decisions or determinations regarding your health, I'm not your doctor. I can tell you things to explore/think about or talk to you about drugs in generalities. And I'm willing to do that if you need a better idea of how these things work.
I have worked a great deal with anti-drug people. Sometimes we have been able to put together treatments using natural products. I will warn you natural products ARE NOT necessarily safer (they can be downright DANGEROUS in some instances), nor does something "natural" imply it's more effective or have less side effects (usually less effective, more side effects). At the end of the day I suggest only going with methods with researched and proven clinical efficacy by legitimate sources. You should never start taking a "natural" treatment without consulting your healthcare professionals first, as they may not be suitable and can lead to negative consequences.
There are a lot of anti medicine, anti phsychiatry websites and nonsense. Many of these people have zero idea what they're talking about, no reliable evidence to support their opinion, possess little knowledge of the conditions they speak of (and how they affect people) and sometimes are just not mentally sound people rebelling or resentful. Even if they have MD or phd after their name doesn't mean they're fringe scientists. Stick to your medical providers advice, they're the ones that best understand your situation and health.
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YOU don't want her take drugs, i.e. possibly much needed medication? YOU are anti-drug so the idea of her being permanently damaged and needing medication doesn't sit well with YOU?
I appreciate that you're worried about that, and all medications do have side effects to take into consideration. But there's a bit too much of YOU in the equation here in your pronouncements and opinions on another adult's medical decisions. What about your wife? Does she not have the autonomy to make her own medical decisions? Are YOU prejudicing her against treatment that could possibly restore her enjoyment of life and new motherhood again?
It's really very straightforward. When I had PPD and PTSD symptoms I sat down with my husband and basically said I'm feeling weird and acting weirder. He agreed and would have sat me down for that talk if I hadn't done it first because he loves me and was worried I was not well and just wanted me to feel better and enjoy life. We made an appointment with my regular doc. The DOCTOR, who had experience in these matters, made the assessment of my mental state and prescribed my Zoloft. My husband sat in on the visit so he could understand what I would need in terms of support. But it was MY decision all the way through.
The fly in the ointment was our baby's pediatrician. He said to wean first and then take it, but he was also the one who coerced me into not taking the perfectly safe painkillers I should have been taking to properly recover from my emergency c-section. That set me back MONTHS in recovering from the surgery. Fear of medicating nursing mothers or fear of doing anything that would require a baby to transition to formula is approaching hysteria these days. Every other Doctor I had caring for me at the time insisted I could safely take the painkillers while nursing and couldn't support my pediatrician's opinion. But out of fear of being seen as putting myself over my child in the pediatrician's eyes, I scorned the painkillers. Frankly it was a huge mistake. If I could do it all over again I would. Putting my health and needs dead last is NOT putting my child first. It's just naive and ignorant and misguided and destructive.
The pediatrician and his partners are great with kids but a bit weird and cavemannish toward mothers. Before I even gave birth he insisted I would breast feed in the most bullying terms possible. Uh, excuse me, my breasts, my baby, my decision. As it turned out, I was able to breastfeed but not all women can and they shouldn't be coerced or pressured or guilted into it. It's terrible the stigma and scorn that is heaped on a woman who finds herself unable to breastfeed these days. If happened to a friend of mine and ruined what should have been a joyous time in a person's life.
I know plenty of siblings in which one was raised on formula, and the other on breast milk and they didn't fare any differently in terms of allergies, sick days, and any other discernible differences one could reasonably attribute to infant diet. Breast milk is preferable if it's an option but it is not preferable to sacrifice a mother's mental health to provide it.
I found out my other friends were taking the same pain meds I was forbidden when they were nursing their babies and their kids turned out just fine. At the very least talk to your health care provider about your concerns about the safety of the nursing baby rather than just pulling out an uninformed prejudice out of thin air that sound based on Tom Cruise rants.
As for the Zoloft, I did wean first before going on it. In my case since I'd taken awhile to realize it wasn't just exhaustion and baby blues, I only had to wait a month and that was close to my weaning goal date anyway. But I suffered a lot during that month and needlessly in doing so. Again, if I had it to do all over, I would have put my mental health first, sought help probably about three months sooner. Doing so is NOT putting the child second but ensuring she has the most engaged, healthy positive maternal influence possible. That pays off more concrete dividends than breast milk does. If it has to come down to a choice. But read what A.Goldberg wrote. It doesn't sound like it has to be an either/or choice for your wife. It sounds like she can have her mental health and the baby can still breastfeed.
And anti-depressants are just a tool, not a cure all, as was already said. I did not have the income or insurance at the time to be able to afford therapy like you're getting, but my doctor provided me with resources and guided me to reading material about behavior modification techniques to help me break my cycle of brooding. I won't name everything I used here because this is something that a professional should direct you to, not a stranger on the Internet. Also, if those things hadn't helped, we probably would have tried to finance therapy somehow. But fortunately it didn't come to that. I did great with the resources I was given.
If your wife's default personality was perky and upbeat there's no reason it can't be restored with some help. Encourage her to go for that help! It will be her decision but encourage her and support her to do what's best for her and not just as a mother. She's not just a mother. A mother is part of what she is but she's a whole human being who needs care on that basis alone.
And really neither you, nor even she can say for sure what caused her PTSD, or even if she has PTSD or PPD. That's for a medical professional to evaluate. There is an excellent chance that even if everything had been sunshine and unicorn farts that she still would have taken a downward turn into whatever state she is in now. Some of these things are triggered by hormone fluctuations and can't necessarily be avoided. Also you all moved while she was pregnant and I already told you that can be a factor even if the move was a positive one. I don't know if any research is out there to back that up, but moves are already ranked up there along with deaths in the family as a major source of stress. It's quite the upheaval when women are pregnant because it conflicts with our "nesting instinct".
I'll be blunt, sitting there blaming yourself is just making it all about you again, so stop it. It's not helping her. You've got plenty of your own stuff that IS about you to deal with. Your wife has to own her own problems and get help. What you can do is take your anti-med prejudice and temper it with some factual information from professionals. So that you will have fewer misgivings and be more supportive if and when she decides to seek help and if and when she is prescribed any medications.
As for you, yes, you possibly do also have depression. You've got the necessary doctors and a therapist to help confirm or dismiss that concern. So have them figure it out. You're so fortunate to have the resources at your disposal that you need. If I could get back to normal with only half the resources I needed and the rest all cobbled together from references, you should be able to do the same with the full arsenal of mental health resources available.
Best wishes and good luck. Sorry if my writing style is super blunt to the point of rudeness. It's not my intention but I'm having some medical issues myself right now and am in a lot of pain, which is why I'm up at a late hour for my time zone. I'm going to have some surgery in a couple of days. So I'm just trying to get the words down and I think my manners are suffering as a result. Please excuse me if I'm coming across badly. I feel like poo.
I appreciate that you're worried about that, and all medications do have side effects to take into consideration. But there's a bit too much of YOU in the equation here in your pronouncements and opinions on another adult's medical decisions. What about your wife? Does she not have the autonomy to make her own medical decisions? Are YOU prejudicing her against treatment that could possibly restore her enjoyment of life and new motherhood again?
It's really very straightforward. When I had PPD and PTSD symptoms I sat down with my husband and basically said I'm feeling weird and acting weirder. He agreed and would have sat me down for that talk if I hadn't done it first because he loves me and was worried I was not well and just wanted me to feel better and enjoy life. We made an appointment with my regular doc. The DOCTOR, who had experience in these matters, made the assessment of my mental state and prescribed my Zoloft. My husband sat in on the visit so he could understand what I would need in terms of support. But it was MY decision all the way through.
The fly in the ointment was our baby's pediatrician. He said to wean first and then take it, but he was also the one who coerced me into not taking the perfectly safe painkillers I should have been taking to properly recover from my emergency c-section. That set me back MONTHS in recovering from the surgery. Fear of medicating nursing mothers or fear of doing anything that would require a baby to transition to formula is approaching hysteria these days. Every other Doctor I had caring for me at the time insisted I could safely take the painkillers while nursing and couldn't support my pediatrician's opinion. But out of fear of being seen as putting myself over my child in the pediatrician's eyes, I scorned the painkillers. Frankly it was a huge mistake. If I could do it all over again I would. Putting my health and needs dead last is NOT putting my child first. It's just naive and ignorant and misguided and destructive.
The pediatrician and his partners are great with kids but a bit weird and cavemannish toward mothers. Before I even gave birth he insisted I would breast feed in the most bullying terms possible. Uh, excuse me, my breasts, my baby, my decision.
As it turned out, I was able to breastfeed but not all women can and they shouldn't be coerced or pressured or guilted into it. It's terrible the stigma and scorn that is heaped on a woman who finds herself unable to breastfeed these days. If happened to a friend of mine and ruined what should have been a joyous time in a person's life. I know plenty of siblings in which one was raised on formula, and the other on breast milk and they didn't fare any differently in terms of allergies, sick days, and any other discernible differences one could reasonably attribute to infant diet. Breast milk is preferable if it's an option but it is not preferable to sacrifice a mother's mental health to provide it.
I found out my other friends were taking the same pain meds I was forbidden when they were nursing their babies and their kids turned out just fine. At the very least talk to your health care provider about your concerns about the safety of the nursing baby rather than just pulling out an uninformed prejudice out of thin air that sound based on Tom Cruise rants.
As for the Zoloft, I did wean first before going on it. In my case since I'd taken awhile to realize it wasn't just exhaustion and baby blues, I only had to wait a month and that was close to my weaning goal date anyway. But I suffered a lot during that month and needlessly in doing so. Again, if I had it to do all over, I would have put my mental health first, sought help probably about three months sooner. Doing so is NOT putting the child second but ensuring she has the most engaged, healthy positive maternal influence possible. That pays off more concrete dividends than breast milk does. If it has to come down to a choice. But read what A.Goldberg wrote. It doesn't sound like it has to be an either/or choice for your wife. It sounds like she can have her mental health and the baby can still breastfeed.
And anti-depressants are just a tool, not a cure all, as was already said. I did not have the income or insurance at the time to be able to afford therapy like you're getting, but my doctor provided me with resources and guided me to reading material about behavior modification techniques to help me break my cycle of brooding. I won't name everything I used here because this is something that a professional should direct you to, not a stranger on the Internet. Also, if those things hadn't helped, we probably would have tried to finance therapy somehow. But fortunately it didn't come to that. I did great with the resources I was given.
If your wife's default personality was perky and upbeat there's no reason it can't be restored with some help. Encourage her to go for that help! It will be her decision but encourage her and support her to do what's best for her and not just as a mother. She's not just a mother. A mother is part of what she is but she's a whole human being who needs care on that basis alone.
And really neither you, nor even she can say for sure what caused her PTSD, or even if she has PTSD or PPD. That's for a medical professional to evaluate. There is an excellent chance that even if everything had been sunshine and unicorn farts that she still would have taken a downward turn into whatever state she is in now. Some of these things are triggered by hormone fluctuations and can't necessarily be avoided. Also you all moved while she was pregnant and I already told you that can be a factor even if the move was a positive one. I don't know if any research is out there to back that up, but moves are already ranked up there along with deaths in the family as a major source of stress. It's quite the upheaval when women are pregnant because it conflicts with our "nesting instinct".
I'll be blunt, sitting there blaming yourself is just making it all about you again, so stop it. It's not helping her. You've got plenty of your own stuff that IS about you to deal with. Your wife has to own her own problems and get help. What you can do is take your anti-med prejudice and temper it with some factual information from professionals. So that you will have fewer misgivings and be more supportive if and when she decides to seek help and if and when she is prescribed any medications.
As for you, yes, you possibly do also have depression. You've got the necessary doctors and a therapist to help confirm or dismiss that concern. So have them figure it out. You're so fortunate to have the resources at your disposal that you need. If I could get back to normal with only half the resources I needed and the rest all cobbled together from references, you should be able to do the same with the full arsenal of mental health resources available.
Best wishes and good luck. Sorry if my writing style is super blunt to the point of rudeness. It's not my intention but I'm having some medical issues myself right now and am in a lot of pain, which is why I'm up at a late hour for my time zone. I'm going to have some surgery in a couple of days. So I'm just trying to get the words down and I think my manners are suffering as a result. Please excuse me if I'm coming across badly. I feel like poo.
Thanks for the front-row seats to the implosion of your personal life. You must be pretty desperate to broadcast all this here.
Clearly your mother has damaged you badly, and inevitably this has hemorrhaged into your relationship with other women. I wonder if your strange gambling habits and fealty to vile notions of "Race Realism" are related to your sick and twisted mother too.
Clearly your mother has damaged you badly, and inevitably this has hemorrhaged into your relationship with other women. I wonder if your strange gambling habits and fealty to vile notions of "Race Realism" are related to your sick and twisted mother too.
Race Realism? What's that? Did I miss something? I'm biracial, actually probably multi-racial. Let's get that cleared up right away so I can exit myself if I'm not welcome.
Some of Stephen's earlier threads suggested a world view that could not charitably be described as remotely progressive.
And some of the threads which discussed his relationship with the lady who later became his wife, were, candidly, rather unsettling.
Stephen: I get it that your world revolves around yourself, to the complete exclusion of almost everyone else - above all, your wife - but some of the people who have taken the time and the trouble to post here - most notably the excellent recent posts written by @GrumpyMom and @A.Goldberg - have tendered thoughtful advice, which is, as always, well worth heeding, but will, of course, be entirely disregarded by your good self.
I honestly don't think this thread can end well. The OP needs to be in therapy instead of spending time on this message board. He has been getting WONDERFUL advice from so many people, but then turns around and doesn't acknowledge most. If he actually IS in therapy now, it would be VERY counteractive to also be here...
Now to add onto this what he may be talking about in other threads?? He needs help and I really think this thread should be closed
Now to add onto this what he may be talking about in other threads?? He needs help and I really think this thread should be closed
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