Thoughts on difficult family situation?

[A.Goldberg]

What caused the rift?

I'm not sure if it's general curiosity or clarification... or you just don't fully recognize what is wrong with your mom in the eyes of your wife and you want to know what other people experience with mothers and wives. I'm just saying this is a thread about you and you appear to be overly interested in the problems of others.

It can be hard to see fault in your parents because, as I've alluded to, they're the only parents you know.

What about your wive's parents? Are they involved in your family? Do they have issues with you or your mother?

Sorry if my criticism of your response to grumpy mom was harsh, but the way you worded your post appeared resentful and seemed to be a degree of placing blame for not explaining herself. I'm just saying she respectfully declined to further her story and you didn't seem to respect that. Boundaries brother, boundaries. Besides this is about your issues, which are separate and different than yours and mine and everyone else's. Different players, different problems, different dynamics

 

[StephenCampbell]

I do realize that I have a problem really respecting other people, and have selfish and manipulative tendencies. I am really trying to work on this.

One of the most therapeutic things for me is discussing these issues with other people and comparing experiences. Hearing what issues other people had and how they dealt with them. That's why I've kept asking about more details about other people's situations. I'm sorry if I came across disrespectfully.

I'll reply in more detail to some of the questions recently posed to me once I'm on a computer.

 

[5105973]

Thank you to the forum members here who spoke up on my behalf. I appreciate what you all posted and also felt you gave great insights. I hope they will sink in but I don't expect they will at this point so early in SC's therapy.

Stephen, I set boundaries with you and refuse to give details not because I'm withholding great illuminating dramas that would enlighten you on how to solve your own problems. It's because I detected very early on a pattern in your behavior that let me know I have to proceed very carefully with everything I write to you because you are enmeshed in the practice of confirmation bias. Here's an excerpt from this link: http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/confirmationbias.html

The confirmation bias refers to the tendency to selectively search for and consider information that confirms one's beliefs.

Time after time I and others have written very clear sentences on things we want to bring to your attention. In your responses you give almost no indication you read, comprehended and absorbed the most important points. Instead you latch onto ancillary comments that could lead to confirming what you want to think, believe, and act on.

In my most recent post I state very explicitly what I think of your mother and why I think she deserves absolutely no place in ANY child's life in ANY capacity until she has gone through a very thorough professional evaluation and treatment.

I used the word ABUSE. And you come back at me wanting to know about my relatives and talking about how I might merely find your mother rude or self-centered, as if she had only failed to call before dropping by for tea a few times.

Dude, she did something in her raising of you that renders you massively dysfunctional. That's serious poop. You don't let a person who messed up her two kids that badly around a new kid until she's been given the green light by a professional after some intensive therapy. That's not overprotecting. That's common sense.

I also find it very telling and very alarming that in all the times I've used a very harsh or blunt tone on you, you remained very courteous with me, but the first time I flat out say some blunt and harsh things about your mother, you not only seem to be completely oblivious to what I said, you came back at me with a bit of attitude. Attitude which most people would normally employ in their own defense right off the bat.

I know for a certainty now I can not help you in any way, shape or form. I can try to clarify points I've already made and reiterate points that seem to have bounced off of you. But it won't get either of us anywhere until you've been in therapy for a good long while.

I went through this sort of thing already with that ex friend I jettisoned from my life last year. She bragged about quitting on her therapist a few years ago just as they were about to make a breakthrough. I hadn't known that until things were getting more weird and scary with her. I was hoping until then that she was going to enter therapy. She was another refugee from a messed up upbringing. And she was turning her kid into a messed up mini-her and the both of them were stressing me and my kid out all hours of the day and night via texts and calls. (Which is why I had to post a couple of queries to the forum on how to use technology to block them).

Another friend sent me an article on Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis of anybody, but everything that article described a Borderline person doing, my friend was doing to me and my entire family. She was even starting to drag my husband into it when she couldn't get a response out of me.

I am a good and loyal friend but I draw the line at anything that negatively impacts my family. She bragged about shutting her therapist out...that was all I needed to know about where things were headed.

I did what I had to do to restore peace and stability to our daily lives. The price was high, the social fallout with some mutual friends was painful, but most knew what I was up against and rallied around our family and supported me for abruptly cutting her off. With normal healthy well adjusted people I would have held a discussion to at least bring closure to both sides. With her in the state she was in, further discussion would have only been an opening for her to try to further manipulate me. Which would only have made me thermonuclear levels or grumpy.

Good night, all. I am actually very grumpy because I still can't get an IPhone SE for me or my 11 year old and we leave for a hiking trip in a week. Ugh, gotta lug the 6SPlus around for that. I'm going off to read grumpy comments about Tim Cook until I'm sleepy.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Thank you to the forum members here who spoke up on my behalf. I appreciate what you all posted and also felt you gave great insights. I hope they will sink in but I don't expect they will at this point so early in SC's therapy.

Stephen, I set boundaries with you and refuse to give details not because I'm withholding great illuminating dramas that would enlighten you on how to solve your own problems. It's because I detected very early on a pattern in your behavior that let me know I have to proceed very carefully with everything I write to you because you are enmeshed in the practice of confirmation bias. Here's an excerpt from this link: http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/confirmationbias.html

The confirmation bias refers to the tendency to selectively search for and consider information that confirms one's beliefs.

Time after time I and others have written very clear sentences on things we want to bring to your attention. In your responses you give almost no indication you read, comprehended and absorbed the most important points. Instead you latch onto ancillary comments that could lead to confirming what you want to think, believe, and act on.

In my most recent post I state very explicitly what I think of your mother and why I think she deserves absolutely no place in ANY child's life in ANY capacity until she has gone through a very thorough professional evaluation and treatment.

I used the word ABUSE. And you come back at me wanting to know about my relatives and talking about how I might merely find your mother rude or self-centered, as if she had only failed to call before dropping by for tea a few times.

Dude, she did something in her raising of you that renders you massively dysfunctional. That's serious poop. You don't let a person who messed up her two kids that badly around a new kid until she's been given the green light by a professional after some intensive therapy. That's not overprotecting. That's common sense.

I also find it very telling and very alarming that in all the times I've used a very harsh or blunt tone on you, you remained very courteous with me, but the first time I flat out say some blunt and harsh things about your mother, you not only seem to be completely oblivious to what I said, you came back at me with a bit of attitude. Attitude which most people would normally employ in their own defense right off the bat.

I know for a certainty now I can not help you in any way, shape or form. I can try to clarify points I've already made and reiterate points that seem to have bounced off of you. But it won't get either of us anywhere until you've been in therapy for a good long while.

I went through this sort of thing already with that ex friend I jettisoned from my life last year. She bragged about quitting on her therapist a few years ago just as they were about to make a breakthrough. I hadn't known that until things were getting more weird and scary with her. I was hoping until then that she was going to enter therapy. She was another refugee from a messed up upbringing. And she was turning her kid into a messed up mini-her and the both of them were stressing me and my kid out all hours of the day and night via texts and calls. (Which is why I had to post a couple of queries to the forum on how to use technology to block them).

Another friend sent me an article on Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis of anybody, but everything that article described a Borderline person doing, my friend was doing to me and my entire family. She was even starting to drag my husband into it when she couldn't get a response out of me.

I am a good and loyal friend but I draw the line at anything that negatively impacts my family. She bragged about shutting her therapist out...that was all I needed to know about where things were headed.

I did what I had to do to restore peace and stability to our daily lives. The price was high, the social fallout with some mutual friends was painful, but most knew what I was up against and rallied around our family and supported me for abruptly cutting her off. With normal healthy well adjusted people I would have held a discussion to at least bring closure to both sides. With her in the state she was in, further discussion would have only been an opening for her to try to further manipulate me. Which would only have made me thermonuclear levels or grumpy.

Good night, all. I am actually very grumpy because I still can't get an IPhone SE for me or my 11 year old and we leave for a hiking trip in a week. Ugh, gotta lug the 6SPlus around for that. I'm going off to read grumpy comments about Tim Cook until I'm sleepy.

I understand what you're saying. And, my mom said of her own "I shouldn't be a part of your life if it's bad for your marriage." When I told her about the six-month cut out, she said "it can be longer than six months, however long you need, or I can permanently be out of your life if that's what's best."

Is she playing some long game and going to come crashing in with some major tantrum and attempted manipulation if she doesn't end up getting a close relationship with our daughter? Maybe. I don't know. But honestly, I really doubt it. My mom does not seem capable of really working on her own personal issues, but she is capable of adjusting herself to a new reality such as "okay, I guess I won't have the relationship with my granddaughter that I hoped for."

I'm not trying to suggest that I should second guess my wife or not respect her feelings because of this, but I have noticed that whenever I do get tangible snippets of stories from people involving the people that they consider to be "crazy," "manipulative," "out of line," etc, it usually doesn't line up with my mom's behavior, and is much more random, unpredictable, out there, violent, etc. For example my mom would never bother me with calls or texts if I asked her not to, period. She would stop doing it after one time of being asked.

She has major, major psychological and emotional problems, absolutely. And at the same time she has some sort of ability to know what's right and what's wrong, and make an earnest effort to make life better for those around her, even if that means her not being a part of those lives.

Where this leads in terms of me and my wife at this point is very simple. When I told my wife that my mom sincerely said that she's happy to not be a part of our lives INDEFINITELY, and that we should just take her at her word for now, my wife said "good!" And so if she really does keep her distance, then with time perhaps my wife will be more comfortable with her, and perhaps not. I will respect either outcome. Today my wife told me that I should assume that she will never want to see my mom again, so that when she does feel comfortable with the idea, it will be a pleasant surprise to me.

But I'm very clear on respecting my wife's feelings at this point, no hesitations, no conditions, just honoring her completely. If my mom is as capable of respect as I just implied, then with time my wife and I will see that, and my mom will be able to have a certain amount of contact with us and our daughter.

Someone asked a few posts back why we were discussing the visits again today. It was because she brought it up and was saying "I need to know that you would be okay with me not being comfortable with any visits from your mom, ever. If you couldn't respect me feeling that way, then I'm wasting my time now." She admitted that that would be a challenging circumstance to face for anybody, having their parent completely barred from any relationship with their child whatsoever, but I told her that if that's really how she felt, that I would trust that she's being sincere and fair and I would respect her feelings.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Someone asked a few posts back why we were discussing the visits again today. It was because she brought it up and was saying "I need to know that you would be okay with me not being comfortable with any visits from your mom, ever. If you couldn't respect me feeling that way, then I'm wasting my time now." She admitted that that would be a challenging circumstance to face for anybody, having their parent completely barred from any relationship with their child whatsoever, but I told her that if that's really how she felt, that I would trust that she's being sincere and fair and I would respect her feelings.

That was my suggestion, I believe you're referring to.

Do YOU really think that is a promise YOU can keep given the deep emotional ties you have with your mom? I believe you said your mother guilts you and manipulates to get her way. She may be "okay with never seeing her granddaughter" but do you think that's really the case given what you said about her being a wet nurse if she could? Do you envision yourself sneaking your mom into the house when your wife isn't around?

I will ask again because I'm curious... how many time a day do you talk about your mom. It seems like you talk about yor mom an awful lot even though she has s ban in place? Perhaps your wife fees threatened you talk to her too much.

I'm not sure how much you talk, but considering to cut down the talk time (1/wk, 15min max) will probably do wonders for your own state of mind.

As I said before, I world in psych treatment (in more of a optimizing medication therapy sense than counseling or diagnosis), but for many of our inpatients the first thing we do is pull their cell phones and limit or omit their daily phone calls. Too much contact with people causing issues in their life on exacerbates issues.

Is she playing some long game and going to come crashing in with some major tantrum and attempted manipulation if she doesn't end up getting a close relationship with our daughter? Maybe. I don't know.

She has major, major psychological and emotional problems, absolutely.

Well, I know I would probably not want someone with "major" psychological/emotional problems around my hypothetical child. Then again I work in inpatient psych and probably have a different conception of "major" - personality disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar I - those are major problems, especially when you start moving down to the more severe end of the spectrum. Then again if the person's issues are such a detriment to the people around them, that can be "major" too.

You haven't been entirely clear about what you and your wife think is wrong with her, which is fine. None of us can make a diagnosis over the web as it is. But your wife seems to be pretty concerned about her safety. I'm sure she can articulate precisely why.

You've alluded to having OCD and obsessive thinking, both of which are considered to be manifestations/forms of anxiety. I am surprised you havent sought out a therapist long ago for those issues (though maybe your mom has something to do with that or maybe I misread and you have had treatment before). I can't envision uncontrolled OCD and anxiety helping this situation.

I think seeking a therapist for those problems AND a therapist certified for marraige counseling is essential. Not all therapists have have extensive marital experience/training- esp if they're not married. And not all marital therapists have extensive experience dealing with things like OCD. Your wife might have to go to counseling right away, but it might not be a bad idea.

A good therapist, especially a marraige counselor should never encourage your wife to divorce you if that's not her desire (unless you're literally abusing her which I assume you're not). The therapist should not take sides either, nor should they change the desire of your wife to stay with you. Otherwise that defeats their job. Your wife is committed to you and should get the support she needs to make that happen.

I saw a family therapist with my parents a few years ago for my own interpersonal issues, particularly with my mother. My mom is very accomplished- a surgeon, very demanding of success/perfection, very controlling out of her own anxiety, especially me being the youngest child and became even more so after my 26 YO brother passed away. My dad is a great guy, but also very success oriented as a corporate banker, very much succumbs to my mother and is disconnected from his own feelings. It took a lot of convincing, some of boycotting family events, and refusing to celebrate my birthday with them to make it happen, but it did eventually.

I got a reccomendation for a family counselor and the guy was truly amazing and absolutely genius. He could manipulate the direction and tone of the conversation like a puppeteer- knowing exactly what to say, what questions to ask, at the right time and place. He was basically a genius of controlling conversations, while not causing it to be superficial or influencing people to say things that weren't true. He did not agitate the the situation and everyone felt better after each of the 3 sessions we had.

I remember saying on the car ride home of the first and second session saying that I felt like the counselor was on my side. My parents said they though he was on their side. I've got to say, it's cool each side got heard and felt supported without the other being offended.

Had there been the opportunity to continue it would have been helpful but unfortunately time and ultimately distance did not permit. My mom claims she doesn't have time for a therapist. So I'm stuck with dealing with her interpersonal flaws, which is fine because at this point 50%+ of the problems I have with her at this point 200 miles away involve my own self-programmed, knee jerk responses after years of dealing with her. Many of the problems are my perception more than anything.

Start working on yourself, show her you're trying to change and that you ARE changing. Then maybe include her with your therapy. Once you two have regained trust and a quality relationship, then it might be time to include mom again in the therapy and eventually perhaps life.

Best of luck.

 

[5105973]

Thank you for taking time to explain thing, Stephen.

There is a huge disconnect between the mom you just described and the mother whose actions you outlined in most previous discussions, as well as the assumed results and fallout of her parenting. It brings up more questions than it answers, but at this point none of it is my business or concern and you all are working on it as best you can, so I continue to wish you well.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Thank you for taking time to explain thing, Stephen.

There is a huge disconnect between the mom you just described and the mother whose actions you outlined in most previous discussions, as well as the assumed results and fallout of her parenting. It brings up more questions than it answers, but at this point none of it is my business or concern and you all are working on it as best you can, so I continue to wish you well.

Well I'm aware I have a blind spot regarding my mom, having grown up with her. The difference between my wife and I is that I don't believe that my mom ever consciously cooks up a manipulative scheme, and that she's just hard wired to keep herself feeling in control, on top, more or less infallible, etc. She often makes people feel uncomfortable and is socially incompetent. My wife does entertain the possibility that my mom does things with conscious ill intention, consciously cooking up schemes to get as much of what she wants as possible. I guess it doesn't ultimately matter that much one way or the other. And if as time passes my mom truly does appear to be at peace with not seeing her granddaughter very much, that will make my wife more comfortable for sure. We are taking things very slowly right now anyway. This morning my wife asked me what I would do if she found out she were pregnant (she would be about three months pregnant if she were), and if I would call my mom, or want my mom to get to see the new baby as an infant, etc. I said no, I couldn't care less, my mom's not going to be part of our life again until you feel comfortable with it, and all my issues are sorted out.

My mom's actions that I outlined in previous discussions were related with accuracy. So if those actions paint her as an aggressive, abusive, manipulative person, then if I have said anything to the contrary, it is probably my own bias towards her kicking in. I don't believe I have described any particular situation or behavior of her's with anything but the utmost fact-based accuracy. I would have to go back and read through the discussion to make sure though. What I do know is that growing up, I was always appalled at how she would treat my dad, but I could never speak up for him because it would break my mom's heart. She was never physically aggressive, but boy would she twist things around and employ selective memory, etc, that would have driven about 99.9% of people straight out the door long ago.
[doublepost=1463236087][/doublepost]

That was my suggestion, I believe you're referring to.

Do YOU really think that is a promise YOU can keep given the deep emotional ties you have with your mom? I believe you said your mother guilts you and manipulates to get her way. She may be "okay with never seeing her granddaughter" but do you think that's really the case given what you said about her being a wet nurse if she could? Do you envision yourself sneaking your mom into the house when your wife isn't around?

I will ask again because I'm curious... how many time a day do you talk about your mom. It seems like you talk about yor mom an awful lot even though she has s ban in place? Perhaps your wife fees threatened you talk to her too much.

I'm not sure how much you talk, but considering to cut down the talk time (1/wk, 15min max) will probably do wonders for your own state of mind.

As I said before, I world in psych treatment (in more of a optimizing medication therapy sense than counseling or diagnosis), but for many of our inpatients the first thing we do is pull their cell phones and limit or omit their daily phone calls. Too much contact with people causing issues in their life on exacerbates issues.




Well, I know I would probably not want someone with "major" psychological/emotional problems around my hypothetical child. Then again I work in inpatient psych and probably have a different conception of "major" - personality disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar I - those are major problems, especially when you start moving down to the more severe end of the spectrum. Then again if the person's issues are such a detriment to the people around them, that can be "major" too.

You haven't been entirely clear about what you and your wife think is wrong with her, which is fine. None of us can make a diagnosis over the web as it is. But your wife seems to be pretty concerned about her safety. I'm sure she can articulate precisely why.

You've alluded to having OCD and obsessive thinking, both of which are considered to be manifestations/forms of anxiety. I am surprised you havent sought out a therapist long ago for those issues (though maybe your mom has something to do with that or maybe I misread and you have had treatment before). I can't envision uncontrolled OCD and anxiety helping this situation.

I think seeking a therapist for those problems AND a therapist certified for marraige counseling is essential. Not all therapists have have extensive marital experience/training- esp if they're not married. And not all marital therapists have extensive experience dealing with things like OCD. Your wife might have to go to counseling right away, but it might not be a bad idea.

A good therapist, especially a marraige counselor should never encourage your wife to divorce you if that's not her desire (unless you're literally abusing her which I assume you're not). The therapist should not take sides either, nor should they change the desire of your wife to stay with you. Otherwise that defeats their job. Your wife is committed to you and should get the support she needs to make that happen.

I saw a family therapist with my parents a few years ago for my own interpersonal issues, particularly with my mother. My mom is very accomplished- a surgeon, very demanding of success/perfection, very controlling out of her own anxiety, especially me being the youngest child and became even more so after my 26 YO brother passed away. My dad is a great guy, but also very success oriented as a corporate banker, very much succumbs to my mother and is disconnected from his own feelings. It took a lot of convincing, some of boycotting family events, and refusing to celebrate my birthday with them to make it happen, but it did eventually.

I got a reccomendation for a family counselor and the guy was truly amazing and absolutely genius. He could manipulate the direction and tone of the conversation like a puppeteer- knowing exactly what to say, what questions to ask, at the right time and place. He was basically a genius of controlling conversations, while not causing it to be superficial or influencing people to say things that weren't true. He did not agitate the the situation and everyone felt better after each of the 3 sessions we had.

I remember saying on the car ride home of the first and second session saying that I felt like the counselor was on my side. My parents said they though he was on their side. I've got to say, it's cool each side got heard and felt supported without the other being offended.

Had there been the opportunity to continue it would have been helpful but unfortunately time and ultimately distance did not permit. My mom claims she doesn't have time for a therapist. So I'm stuck with dealing with her interpersonal flaws, which is fine because at this point 50%+ of the problems I have with her at this point 200 miles away involve my own self-programmed, knee jerk responses after years of dealing with her. Many of the problems are my perception more than anything.

Start working on yourself, show her you're trying to change and that you ARE changing. Then maybe include her with your therapy. Once you two have regained trust and a quality relationship, then it might be time to include mom again in the therapy and eventually perhaps life.

Best of luck.

When I used the word "major" the way I did, I was referring primarily to the fact that she can never feel like she is in any way more flawed than anyone else. She can never apologize for anything based on someone else's feelings, only if she deems it worthy of an apology. If someone says "your words hurt me, I would like an apology," she'll literally say something like "well I didn't mean to hurt you, I can't apologize for something I didn't do." And most importantly, she has no ability whatsoever to reflect on her issues and humble herself to the point of saying "okay, I have issues, I want to work on them." She calls herself a "warm, passionate, loving person" who can just be a little too intense or overbearing to some people sometimes. But that's not really consistent with the "you're the rudest son ever!" incident, or the way she asked my wife to be brutally honest with her and then got defensive and tried to shut down the conversation when she did. Both me and my dad have suggested she undergo therapy, and she says things like "Oh I do work on myself already. If I went to a conventional therapist I would be laughing at them because I'm ten steps ahead of them."

 

[A.Goldberg]

When I used the word "major" the way I did, I was referring primarily to the fact that she can never feel like she is in any way more flawed than anyone else. She can never apologize for anything based on someone else's feelings, only if she deems it worthy of an apology. If someone says "your words hurt me, I would like an apology," she'll literally say something like "well I didn't mean to hurt you, I can't apologize for something I didn't do." And most importantly, she has no ability whatsoever to reflect on her issues and humble herself to the point of saying "okay, I have issues, I want to work on them." She calls herself a "warm, passionate, loving person" who can just be a little too intense or overbearing to some people sometimes. But that's not really consistent with the "you're the rudest son ever!" incident, or the way she asked my wife to be brutally honest with her and then got defensive and tried to shut down the conversation when she did. Both me and my dad have suggested she undergo therapy, and she says things like "Oh I do work on myself already. If I went to a conventional therapist I would be laughing

We of course only have been given very small and select snippets of information on your mother, but given your description it sounds like your mother may have a personality disorders. Personality disorders are complex, difficult to treat, and difficult to explain. PD's were previously separated into specific subtypes, but they often present with a cluster of subtypes. Now with the new DSM-V there is one diagnosis with specific traits to represent the cluster of symptoms. Another example is antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopaths aka psychopaths)

The two PD's that stand out to be are boarderline personality disorder (BPD) and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD).

Boarderline personality disorder (not to be confused with multiple personality disorder aka dissociative identity disorder) is characterized by an inability to manage emotions. These people often have erratic, unpredictable emotions- you never know how they will react. Internally (but not necessarily in their outward behavior) they are very insecure and sensitive and manipulate people around them to feed their sense of self- they thrive off of love, attention, and gratitude. People who "threaten" their sense of self (paradoxically often very grandiose- compensation for their insecurity) are seen as the enemy. BPD people therefore often partake in splitting- black and white thinking- individuals are either good (because they provide validation) or evil (because they are a threat). They often manipulate people by another form of "splitting", saying one thing to one person, and another thing to another. In healthcare these people often "split" staff and wreak havoc. There is an old expression "if there is fighting on the floor between there probably someone with BPD"- the same can be true for families. These people cannot internally cope with there emotions, so they manipulate their social environment to make them more comfortable.

The inability to apologize is a pretty classic trait of someone with BPD. Apologies open the door for guilt, shame, and acceptance of wrong-doing. In the mind of someone with BPD, an appology admits shortcoming, and therefore is a threat to their perception self. Unlike normal people who can reasonably handle a blow to their ego, BPD afflicted individuals will manipulate their situation to suit their needs. Therefore they will not appologize and deflect the blame and shame- often putting the problem on others. People with BPD LOVE being the victim and the attention they gain from that.

As you can probably see now there is a theme of narcissism running here, which is where NPD comes into the cluster symptoms of PD's. You can probably easily imagine how a narcisstic person acts. The person with NPD is the center of the universe, they are superior, and other people's feelings don't matter or exist.

Personality disorders are not a matter chemical imbalance that can easily be treated with medication. They are a persistent state of being and a fundamental flaw in the thinking and personality of the individual. They are extremely difficult to work with professionally and even worse as family members. Management of PD's is tricky and requires A LOT of therapy with specifically trained healthcare providers. In my opinion there are few qualified providers and very few effective treatment programs. Also of note BPD is

Not surprisingly people with PD's at best extremely emotionally taxing for those in their life, and at worse (and often) emotionally abusive. Parents, especially mothers, have a profound effect on their children. If your mom has a PD it's not out of the question her condition has affected you. Your self admitted unhealthy relationship is quite possibly a result of her breeding you to be her reliable source of validation and an easy target for shifting blame. People with PD's, especially BPD, have little sense of boundaries. That could be why your sense boundaries are so convoluted.

Like I said, can't diagnose a PD for you and have used hypothetical language throughout this post. I think it would be highly advantageous for you to research this condition for your own edification and perhaps insight into your own family situation + your own behaviors.

I suggest reading about PD's in general and then delving into BLD. If you google "BPD + parenting" or "Mothers with BPD" you can find a lot of articles.

Here is a good article to start:
http://cooperativeparentingblog.com...y-a-borderline-personality-disordered-parent/

Caregivers BPD can have a profound negative emotional impacts on their dependents (children, grandchildren). I highly suggest you do some reading on this before you AND your wife decide to what extent your mother should be involved in your child's life.

 

[5105973]

Well I'm aware I have a blind spot regarding my mom, having grown up with her. The difference between my wife and I is that I don't believe that my mom ever consciously cooks up a manipulative scheme, and that she's just hard wired to keep herself feeling in control, on top, more or less infallible, etc.

Both me and my dad have suggested she undergo therapy, and she says things like "Oh I do work on myself already. If I went to a conventional therapist I would be laughing at them because I'm ten steps ahead of them."

That last part in quotes was chilling. It makes it difficult, doesn't it.

Well it is definitely something to discuss with your own therapist. I did just type out a long thing about my own experiences but deleted it because it's really dicey trying to compare our situations when in reality they could be different in key ways, so that any suggestions I could make could backfire spectacularly.

Anyway, about manipulation, few decent people ever consciously set out to manipulate. Being a parent is problematic because it's a position that gives a person responsibility and authority over another human being. The ease with which one can use this power to manipulate one's child is insidious. A good parent steps back from time to time for self reflection to ask himself or herself "Am I saying/doing this for myself or for the good of my child?"

A parent with something seriously wrong with themselves can't do this with any consistency. The consequences to children and even grandchildren can be devastating in that case.

There is no room for self deceit if you want to do it right. Wanting to be a good spouse and a good parent...wanting to be basically the best iteration of the many facets of one's identity requires one to be brutally candid and honest with oneself. And being this best iteration of yourself requires a commitment to a sense of honor and integrity. This then manifests with the result of leaving yourself a better person as you move through different things in your life, leaving the people in your life feeling better for having known you, and leaving something positive to your community. This is something I strive for with the guidance of my Christian faith. It's something my Sister-in-law strives for in her pagan faith, and something one of my dear old friends strives for in her agnostic path. It's universal and for everyone.

Having said that, I freely admit to sometimes tripping all over myself and falling flat on my face. Like when I had PMS or now as I approach 50, my "moments of menopause". Yeah my efforts at good parenting and good spousing (totally not a word but it should be) kind of fall by the wayside then. It's best to just chuck a Hershey bar at me and run like hell. And before my morning caffeine kicks in is a bad time, too. Again, I'm only human.

I will tell you truthfully like most parents, I fall prey to the temptation to use guilt to make my life easier. Especially when it comes to getting these slobs to clean up after themselves. I have to stop, remind myself that's a bad pattern of behavior to fall into and a horrible example to set and just take the direct route: "We are a family. I am the mom, not Cinderella. You all aren't the ugly step sisters. I can't get it all done while you all slack. Step up and do your part or things don't get done, the house looks bad, we can't have your friends over and we can't find the cat."

I find specifying logical natural consequences to stupid actions or inactions works better than bribes, threats, or guilt trips (which is bad parenting). There is little room for resentment or corruption when dealing with the natural outcome of an undesirable action or inaction. But it's a learning experience that should reinforce better behavior in the long run.

I also apply my quirky sense of humor as often as possible. I keep it honed on everything from Douglas Adams to Erma Bombeck (an oldie but a goodie, a writer of domestic humor my grandma introduced me to). I never launch into a lecture, scold, or even have an argument with my husband without ensuring at least one absurd moment to elicit a smile through the tears or frowns.

That's actually a gift my parents gave me. We had dysfunction once upon a time, but we had and continue to have a lot of laughs. Both my mom and my dad come from long lines of natural comedians.

It's okay to hold onto any such gifts your mother gave you. Just don't let yourself be blind to the harm she caused and could cause, and brace yourself for the possibility they may have to be parting gifts. Your therapy will help you figure this all out.

 

[BeeGood]

There is no room for self deceit if you want to do it right. Wanting to be a good spouse and a good parent...wanting to be basically the best iteration of the many facets of one's identity requires one to be brutally candid and honest with oneself. And being this best iteration of yourself requires a commitment to a sense of honor and integrity. This then manifests with the result of leaving yourself a better person as you move through different things in your life, leaving the people in your life feeling better for having known you, and leaving something positive to your community. This is something I strive for with the guidance of my Christian faith. It's something my Sister-in-law strives for in her pagan faith, and something one of my dear old friends strives for in her agnostic path. It's universal and for everyone.

I have nothing to add here. I just wanted to quote this because....my God this is epic. Very well put.

Like you, I believe my marriage is more about becoming holy than it is about becoming happy. But like you said, even if you're not, you have to believe that the marriage is greater than you and your feelings.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Yes, my mom's inability to move towards any sort of humility or self-reflection is chilling. She can't hear any criticism unless it's on her terms and she has decided that she was lacking in said area. She'll say "I have no problem being wrong, taking criticism, etc" but she decides when she was wrong and she decides whether a criticism is valid or not, so she always stays in control.

I have now had three sessions with the therapist that I don't really like, and it's mildly helpful to talk with him, but it's really no different than talking with my uncle. He doesn't give any insight that I didn't already have. I'll self-analyze myself and he'll go "Aha!" and I'm like "yeah, but I knew that already, that's why I just said it."

On Monday I am beginning psychoanalysis sessions with a guy who was highly recommended to me by someone I trust, so I have higher hopes for that going forward.

My wife and I have been doing very very well the past week. When the six-month mom ban was first put in place, even then I was not where I was this past week. A couple weeks into the ban I continued to transform and progress and reorient myself towards my wife and really internalize what it means to just respect her feelings and take care of her. She has been more than pleasantly surprised at my ability to grow. Right now I'm on a mission, and that mission is to ask myself every minute of every day "what could I be doing right now to make my wife happier, less stressed, more taken care of, etc?" And then whatever I can think of, I do it. It doesn't matter what I'm feeling internally, it doesn't matter if I'm anxious, it doesn't matter if I'm having concerns about what things will be like with my mom in the future. I am willing myself to be the person I want to be. Even if my feelings aren't always right there with me, I ensure that my actions are where they're supposed to be. I am willing myself to become a good husband by pure habit, by asking myself that question throughout the day. With time it will just be who I am, I won't have to keep pushing myself anymore. The more I take care of her, the happier she is, the more confident I feel about everything, and the less anxious I am.

Right now our mutual feeling is that when the six months are up, we'll assess whether we're really ready to see my mom at all yet, and if not we'll just extend the ban. My wife already suggested at least extending it through the holidays, and I agreed. When we do resume contact with her, it will be in the manner that it was before the baby was born. No scheduled fixed-interval visits to our house. We'll just see her when we see her, which was about every two to three months I think, before the baby was born. Family gatherings, etc.

 

[5105973]

Yes, my mom's inability to move towards any sort of humility or self-reflection is chilling. She can't hear any criticism unless it's on her terms and she has decided that she was lacking in said area. She'll say "I have no problem being wrong, taking criticism, etc" but she decides when she was wrong and she decides whether a criticism is valid or not, so she always stays in control.

I have now had three sessions with the therapist that I don't really like, and it's mildly helpful to talk with him, but it's really no different than talking with my uncle. He doesn't give any insight that I didn't already have. I'll self-analyze myself and he'll go "Aha!" and I'm like "yeah, but I knew that already, that's why I just said it."

On Monday I am beginning psychoanalysis sessions with a guy who was highly recommended to me by someone I trust, so I have higher hopes for that going forward.

My wife and I have been doing very very well the past week. When the six-month mom ban was first put in place, even then I was not where I was this past week. A couple weeks into the ban I continued to transform and progress and reorient myself towards my wife and really internalize what it means to just respect her feelings and take care of her. She has been more than pleasantly surprised at my ability to grow. Right now I'm on a mission, and that mission is to ask myself every minute of every day "what could I be doing right now to make my wife happier, less stressed, more taken care of, etc?" And then whatever I can think of, I do it. It doesn't matter what I'm feeling internally, it doesn't matter if I'm anxious, it doesn't matter if I'm having concerns about what things will be like with my mom in the future. I am willing myself to be the person I want to be. Even if my feelings aren't always right there with me, I ensure that my actions are where they're supposed to be. I am willing myself to become a good husband by pure habit, by asking myself that question throughout the day. With time it will just be who I am, I won't have to keep pushing myself anymore. The more I take care of her, the happier she is, the more confident I feel about everything, and the less anxious I am.

Right now our mutual feeling is that when the six months are up, we'll assess whether we're really ready to see my mom at all yet, and if not we'll just extend the ban. My wife already suggested at least extending it through the holidays, and I agreed. When we do resume contact with her, it will be in the manner that it was before the baby was born. No scheduled fixed-interval visits to our house. We'll just see her when we see her, which was about every two to three months I think, before the baby was born. Family gatherings, etc.

That's all good, except for the fact you're not satisfied with your therapist. I hope the new therapist will be more helpful. You are focusing on your wife and marriage and that's wonderful. It's a good baby step. I'm happy for you and your wife. You are right in that some new and better attitudes and behaviors will become second nature.

But at some point address with your new therapist the things that can make you feel happy and fulfilled apart from and completely having nothing to do with your mother and even the rest of your family. Because you DO matter.

See, I am just a bit concerned you may only be going through the motions of being there for your wife but losing yourself. The problem is you do not have a strong sense of self. That is something you and your new therapist should look into. Finding out who you are and defining yourself better. You don't want to go from defining yourself around your mother's needs to defining yourself around your wife's needs. Your wife is an intelligent and vibrant person and won't want you to become her automaton as you almost had done for your mother. And you don't want to slip into resentment.

But that is a multi-step process and can't be rushed. I only mention it so you will be aware that your words convey an emptiness that will need to be addressed. You were not adequately addressing your wife's needs and now you are, so that's to be celebrated.

In time you will transition to a state of balance so that you will be able to feel more present and vibrant in your own life. Not just as a husband. Not just as a dad. But as you...whoever you discover yourself to be. Are you an artist? Are you a sports nut? In time, when the craziness of keeping up with a new baby passes, you will gradually get more time to discover yourself and define or redefine your own unique personal identity.

It is a process I had to go through myself after leaving the workforce and becoming a SAHM. It is a process my husband still goes through as he leaves one crazy phase of his career and works toward retirement. It is a continuing process of life, actually, but I suspect the early stages of self discovery were denied to you because of your mother's need to define and control you, instead of letting you discover for yourself these things. But don't worry you will get there. One day at a time.

And you won't have to cast off the life you have now. Some people get the crazy idea they have to run off and leave everything they have to find themselves. It's quite a cliché actually, probably left over from the 60's and 70's. I'm living proof it's perfectly possible and indeed quite satisfying to "find myself" within the parameters of the other choices I have made in my life. I find the challenges inherent in doing so to be opportunities for more growth and self discovery. One need neither be selfish nor selfless to find and define one's self.

I hope in all of this you are finding some joy and wonder in being a dad. How is your baby doing? Is there anything about being a new father that has taken you by surprise in how fun it is or funny? Is there anything a bit more gross than you expected? For our parts, both my husband and I were shocked at exactly how much, how often, and how explosively babies poop!

Is there anything in particular that you find intimidating or difficult? We found it difficult to cope with how little sleep we were getting. But many new parents didn't have that problem. It does vary.

 

[StephenCampbell]

That's all good, except for the fact you're not satisfied with your therapist. I hope the new therapist will be more helpful. You are focusing on your wife and marriage and that's wonderful. It's a good baby step. I'm happy for you and your wife. You are right in that some new and better attitudes and behaviors will become second nature.

But at some point address with your new therapist the things that can make you feel happy and fulfilled apart from and completely having nothing to do with your mother and even the rest of your family. Because you DO matter.

See, I am just a bit concerned you may only be going through the motions of being there for your wife but losing yourself. The problem is you do not have a strong sense of self. That is something you and your new therapist should look into. Finding out who you are and defining yourself better. You don't want to go from defining yourself around your mother's needs to defining yourself around your wife's needs. Your wife is an intelligent and vibrant person and won't want you to become her automaton as you almost had done for your mother. And you don't want to slip into resentment.

But that is a multi-step process and can't be rushed. I only mention it so you will be aware that your words convey an emptiness that will need to be addressed. You were not adequately addressing your wife's needs and now you are, so that's to be celebrated.

In time you will transition to a state of balance so that you will be able to feel more present and vibrant in your own life. Not just as a husband. Not just as a dad. But as you...whoever you discover yourself to be. Are you an artist? Are you a sports nut? In time, when the craziness of keeping up with a new baby passes, you will gradually get more time to discover yourself and define or redefine your own unique personal identity.

It is a process I had to go through myself after leaving the workforce and becoming a SAHM. It is a process my husband still goes through as he leaves one crazy phase of his career and works toward retirement. It is a continuing process of life, actually, but I suspect the early stages of self discovery were denied to you because of your mother's need to define and control you, instead of letting you discover for yourself these things. But don't worry you will get there. One day at a time.

And you won't have to cast off the life you have now. Some people get the crazy idea they have to run off and leave everything they have to find themselves. It's quite a cliché actually, probably left over from the 60's and 70's. I'm living proof it's perfectly possible and indeed quite satisfying to "find myself" within the parameters of the other choices I have made in my life. I find the challenges inherent in doing so to be opportunities for more growth and self discovery. One need neither be selfish nor selfless to find and define one's self.

I hope in all of this you are finding some joy and wonder in being a dad. How is your baby doing? Is there anything about being a new father that has taken you by surprise in how fun it is or funny? Is there anything a bit more gross than you expected? For our parts, both my husband and I were shocked at exactly how much, how often, and how explosively babies poop!

Is there anything in particular that you find intimidating or difficult? We found it difficult to cope with how little sleep we were getting. But many new parents didn't have that problem. It does vary.

You're absolutely right. In fact, in our last session my current therapist did speak mostly about how I need to discover my own self and find my own voice. At one point I said that I feel like I would be happy if I lived in a larger community where I could constantly get support and reassurance and confirmation of right/wrong from those around me. He said "you need to find the community within yourself." At another point he was talking about how I need to transition away from my mom in terms of the emotional care I've been giving her, and I interrupted with "and transfer it onto my wife, right?" He said "No! Transfer it onto yourself!" I guess I end up feeling sort of blah at the end of the session because he doesn't do anything to help me do that.

Lately I've had glimpses of what it would be like to be really happy and at peace. The three of us went to the library yesterday and I thought about everything from our daughter's perspective, and about how accepting that I'm not a child anymore and instead diving headfirst into facilitating and supporting the life of my own child and being a great husband could make me feel fully alive again and comfortable in the shoes of an adult. I mean, it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that my general sense of anxiety and discontentedness is simply a problem of mine. I told my therapist yesterday that I feel like any normal person in my shoes would be the happiest man in the world.

I can totally see how the root of the problem is the lack of a solid self within me. I just feel hollow a lot of the time. But I've sort of been that way as far back as I can remember. From at least the age of eight or nine my main source of joy in life was the acquisition of material goods, and the anticipation of receiving material goods. I could be out with my family at the beach, with friends, and it would be fine, you know, I wasn't miserable or anything. But then I'd think about some item that I ordered online recently and how it's going to be arriving soon, and that would cause a wave of happiness and joy to run through me unlike anything caused by the beach, the friends, etc. I even remember one time at the age of 12, we were on a ski trip, and while skiing down this beautiful mountain, the thing that gave me joy way above and beyond anything else was the thought of buying this certain game I wanted to buy. I was always in my head, attaining happiness solely through the acquisition of stuff.

And these issues all become much more serious within the context of a romantic relationship, and especially within a marriage. When I was 17 I had been dating this girl for just a few weeks, and I really really liked her a lot. It was those first few weeks of a relationship and it was just absolutely electric being around her, but one day I was at her house, and suddenly I felt empty, and then I thought "If I'm feeling empty like this she must not be the right girl, the right girl would fill me with a magical perfect feeling all the time." So you can imagine the role that feelings of anxiety and emptiness could have in a marriage, especially since marriage is for life. See, if I could rewind time a few years and stay single, and just play video games and watch movies all day, I would never feel any anxiety. At least not for many years. My "comfort zone" is a space of childlike carelessness where all paths are still theoretically open. At some point I suppose anxiety would come up as a result of getting older and running out of time to have a family. So for people like me there's no way out, the issues have to be tackled head on, hopefully sooner than later.

See, when I have free time even, I often end up doing nothing but wandering about the internet aimlessly, because a commitment to a movie, a book, etc, would mean the death of ten thousand other possibilities. I try to decide on one thing I want to do, and then I immediately think of all the other options that I'll be missing out on if I choose that. I do read and watch movies and get stuff done sometimes, but that mentality is interesting, and consistent with the anxiety issues described above. Basically, to be free from anxiety I have to stay in a place where I'm not seriously committed to or bound by anything. Could that have some significant connection to the concept of me having a lack of a proper self?

 

[5105973]

It might. (The answer to your last question in your paragraph).

I think your therapist is more clued in than you realize. You're just a tad impatient. Or maybe craving more direction than therapists generally give.

I've not had therapy myself (didn't have sufficient income or insurance to afford it until just a few years ago and by then I didn't really have time or a pressing need for it). Anyway, in talking to friends and family who have had therapy with an actual therapist, it's my understanding that it's a slow process and the therapist is there to guide you into thinking for yourself and doing for yourself. They apparently try hard not to form your conclusions for you or tell you what to do, unless it's to nudge you in the direction of deciding what to do on your own.

This is really important in your case because you need to wean yourself of that feeling of anxiety you get when someone doesn't direct your thoughts and actions.

I can empathize somewhat because my mom was super bossy in an Asian Tiger mom way, when I was all the way into college, and my dad wanted me to be like him to a degree that was a little controlling and he was ex military which meant my life could get regimented at times. The problem is that I'm almost 50 and so far away from that point in my life that I am having a hard time remembering what it all felt like to be in your shoes. Also I was never really quite under their influence to the degree you experienced with your mom. There were boundaries there between us that I don't think you got to experience. And they were becoming aware that they were messing up and trying to address that just as I was becoming an adult. Partially at my insistence but also partly because they were self aware and intelligent.

Still, it is a universal feeling to get an attack of panic at being thrust into adult responsibilities, adult expectations, and adult roles and lifestyles no matter how awesome or awful your parents are at preparing you for it all. That happens to pretty much everyone to some degree. More so in people like us who have been used to more sheltering and/or bossing around.

Normally I am very focused but since hitting menopause I find myself very much like you, feeling antsy about settling into one particular activity and feeling like I'm missing out or should be doing something else. That's a brain chemistry issue for me. I'm familiar with it from having a similar issue upon hitting puberty and again around the time of my pregnancy. If it persists after menopause I will address the issue with my doctor. Who knows, I may avail myself therapy now that I can pay for it. One thing is for sure, I'm not settling for dysfunction at any age or stage of my life. But I'm not at the point I feel dysfunctional yet.

Even though you're male, it's not out of the question you might be having some sort of imbalance. I know men can get a form of post partum anxiety or depression, too. My husband did. His cleared up when he finally was able to get enough sleep. I had to go on Zoloft for about two years after the baby was weaned to get my brain chemistry back on track. I don't think I'll have to go on it again, but my doctor is keeping an eye on me. I'm pretty cheery, though. I just need more time outdoors, which I've not been able to get with nonstop rain in our region.

I'm always obsessed with new shiny things. That's part of the reason I'm on this forum to begin with. I am from a really poor background so I'm used to living on a tight budget and I'm not irresponsible with money. I'm always within my means and am still very thrifty in most respects. But ever since I was a kid, I've always kept myself going by having something to shop for. I will research and read and daydream about whatever it is. A lot of the time I never could have whatever it was...like the Apple IIc back in the day...no way, too poor and I had college tuition to earn. But it made me happy just thinking I could get something like that someday.

Is that healthy? Well...I think in my case it's a rather harmless crutch. There's been a LOT of cancer battles in my family in the past few years and whenever I get that bad news, it helps me to be able to switch my mind to thinking of something I am looking forward to.

Why material things? Well, I think it's because they are uncomplicated. I could think of pets, children, politics or any other distraction but those things are complex and could start a chain of thinking that could lead to more concern and anxiety. There is less to worry about in pondering the purchase of a new iPhone...oh well there are cat pee yellow screens and TSMC chips vs Samsung chips and such that some people obsess about...but compared to contemplating cancer treatment options for a loved one...these things comprise a humorously absurd "worry".

I think it would cross the line into a problem if I start losing the ability to enjoy other aspects of life or use such a crutch to avoid dealing with things altogether. And of course if my desire to acquire stuff causes financial hardship. If ever find myself in that position, I'll be getting professional help pronto.

I think where it might be a problem for you is that you might be using the focus on material things to fill a hole in yourself, like you surmised. In your case it's possibly your missing sense of self. For me it's just something I can divert attention to until I'm ready to face the hard issues I've got to deal with in a family struck with so much illness.

You could also be doing a little of the same as me with the using material things as a distraction from your anxieties. I hope your therapist helps you sort, catalog and develop a plan to tackle your anxieties.

I think in the case of that girlfriend you were talking about, it was a problem because you were expecting an actual live human being to fill up this empty place in you. She was possibly a lovely young woman but here's the kicker, there is no person alive who can be to you what you were hoping she could have been.

That is not what other people are here for. Your mom possibly used you in that way (as did my mom on occasion --it's a common trap parents fall into) but neither of us was given the gift of life to spend it filling someone else's emptiness. Nor is another human being supposed to fill ours.

One thing about life, it is a long process of learning and discovering exactly what healthy and positive things we can do or become to fill those empty and missing spaces in ourselves. And don't expect epiphanies right away or to find one big answer for all time. What fills you and completes you at one age and stage will not sustain you indefinitely. It's an ongoing continuous process as we age and circumstances in our lives change.

Therapy will help you recognize how to handle this process in ever healthier ways. Life experience, making mistakes and learning from them will also enhance this process. Don't expect to have the serenity, zen and sense of self that a 50 year old has when you are barely out of your parents' house. If you could have been conversing with me when I was thirty, I guarantee you'd notice a few differences here and there. Youth is not an easy state. There are reasons many of us would keep our wrinkles and middle aged pudge and not be young again. You could not pay me to be twenty five again and give up all I've learned and the inner peace I earned in the last 25 years.

But never ever lose sight of the fact that it is not the responsibility or the place of our friends, children, spouses, parents, or any other human being to do our living and thinking for us. I'm very passionate about women's rights because usually, especially in patriarchal cultures or religions, women are denied the most basic gifts of experiencing life to the fullest.

The joy we should get from the presence of these other people in our lives is the opportunity to be a part of their journey of self discovery and their experience of life with all its rites of passage. We are there to help, to be a companion, but not to do it for them, either. And of course we are to allow them to share in our journey of self discovery and our discovery of life with all its rites of passage...but never to let another do these things in our place.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It might. (The answer to your last question in your paragraph).

I think your therapist is more clued in than you realize. You're just a tad impatient. Or maybe craving more direction than therapists generally give.

I've not had therapy myself (didn't have sufficient income or insurance to afford it until just a few years ago and by then I didn't really have time or a pressing need for it). Anyway, in talking to friends and family who have had therapy with an actual therapist, it's my understanding that it's a slow process and the therapist is there to guide you into thinking for yourself and doing for yourself. They apparently try hard not to form your conclusions for you or tell you what to do, unless it's to nudge you in the direction of deciding what to do on your own.

This is really important in your case because you need to wean yourself of that feeling of anxiety you get when someone doesn't direct your thoughts and actions.

I can empathize somewhat because my mom was super bossy in an Asian Tiger mom way, when I was all the way into college, and my dad wanted me to be like him to a degree that was a little controlling and he was ex military which meant my life could get regimented at times. The problem is that I'm almost 50 and so far away from that point in my life that I am having a hard time remembering what it all felt like to be in your shoes. Also I was never really quite under their influence to the degree you experienced with your mom. There were boundaries there between us that I don't think you got to experience. And they were becoming aware that they were messing up and trying to address that just as I was becoming an adult. Partially at my insistence but also partly because they were self aware and intelligent.

Still, it is a universal feeling to get an attack of panic at being thrust into adult responsibilities, adult expectations, and adult roles and lifestyles no matter how awesome or awful your parents are at preparing you for it all. That happens to pretty much everyone to some degree. More so in people like us who have been used to more sheltering and/or bossing around.

Normally I am very focused but since hitting menopause I find myself very much like you, feeling antsy about settling into one particular activity and feeling like I'm missing out or should be doing something else. That's a brain chemistry issue for me. I'm familiar with it from having a similar issue upon hitting puberty and again around the time of my pregnancy. If it persists after menopause I will address the issue with my doctor. Who knows, I may avail myself therapy now that I can pay for it. One thing is for sure, I'm not settling for dysfunction at any age or stage of my life. But I'm not at the point I feel dysfunctional yet.

Even though you're male, it's not out of the question you might be having some sort of imbalance. I know men can get a form of post partum anxiety or depression, too. My husband did. His cleared up when he finally was able to get enough sleep. I had to go on Zoloft for about two years after the baby was weaned to get my brain chemistry back on track. I don't think I'll have to go on it again, but my doctor is keeping an eye on me. I'm pretty cheery, though. I just need more time outdoors, which I've not been able to get with nonstop rain in our region.

I'm always obsessed with new shiny things. That's part of the reason I'm on this forum to begin with. I am from a really poor background so I'm used to living on a tight budget and I'm not irresponsible with money. I'm always within my means and am still very thrifty in most respects. But ever since I was a kid, I've always kept myself going by having something to shop for. I will research and read and daydream about whatever it is. A lot of the time I never could have whatever it was...like the Apple IIc back in the day...no way, too poor and I had college tuition to earn. But it made me happy just thinking I could get something like that someday.

Is that healthy? Well...I think in my case it's a rather harmless crutch. There's been a LOT of cancer battles in my family in the past few years and whenever I get that bad news, it helps me to be able to switch my mind to thinking of something I am looking forward to.

Why material things? Well, I think it's because they are uncomplicated. I could think of pets, children, politics or any other distraction but those things are complex and could start a chain of thinking that could lead to more concern and anxiety. There is less to worry about in pondering the purchase of a new iPhone...oh well there are cat pee yellow screens and TSMC chips vs Samsung chips and such that some people obsess about...but compared to contemplating cancer treatment options for a loved one...these things comprise a humorously absurd "worry".

I think it would cross the line into a problem if I start losing the ability to enjoy other aspects of life or use such a crutch to avoid dealing with things altogether. And of course if my desire to acquire stuff causes financial hardship. If ever find myself in that position, I'll be getting professional help pronto.

I think where it might be a problem for you is that you might be using the focus on material things to fill a hole in yourself, like you surmised. In your case it's possibly your missing sense of self. For me it's just something I can divert attention to until I'm ready to face the hard issues I've got to deal with in a family struck with so much illness.

You could also be doing a little of the same as me with the using material things as a distraction from your anxieties. I hope your therapist helps you sort, catalog and develop a plan to tackle your anxieties.

I think in the case of that girlfriend you were talking about, it was a problem because you were expecting an actual live human being to fill up this empty place in you. She was possibly a lovely young woman but here's the kicker, there is no person alive who can be to you what you were hoping she could have been.

That is not what other people are here for. Your mom possibly used you in that way (as did my mom on occasion --it's a common trap parents fall into) but neither of us was given the gift of life to spend it filling someone else's emptiness. Nor is another human being supposed to fill ours.

One thing about life, it is a long process of learning and discovering exactly what healthy and positive things we can do or become to fill those empty and missing spaces in ourselves. And don't expect epiphanies right away or to find one big answer for all time. What fills you and completes you at one age and stage will not sustain you indefinitely. It's an ongoing continuous process as we age and circumstances in our lives change.

Therapy will help you recognize how to handle this process in ever healthier ways. Life experience, making mistakes and learning from them will also enhance this process. Don't expect to have the serenity, zen and sense of self that a 50 year old has when you are barely out of your parents' house. If you could have been conversing with me when I was thirty, I guarantee you'd notice a few differences here and there. Youth is not an easy state. There are reasons many of us would keep our wrinkles and middle aged pudge and not be young again. You could not pay me to be twenty five again and give up all I've learned and the inner peace I earned in the last 25 years.

But never ever lose sight of the fact that it is not the responsibility or the place of our friends, children, spouses, parents, or any other human being to do our living and thinking for us. I'm very passionate about women's rights because usually, especially in patriarchal cultures or religions, women are denied the most basic gifts of experiencing life to the fullest.

The joy we should get from the presence of these other people in our lives is the opportunity to be a part of their journey of self discovery and their experience of life with all its rites of passage. We are there to help, to be a companion, but not to do it for them, either. And of course we are to allow them to share in our journey of self discovery and our discovery of life with all its rites of passage...but never to let another do these things in our place.

Absolutely brilliant and beautifully written post. And, one that may possibly be of benefit to others, not simply the OP to whom this is ostensibly addressed.

 

[5105973]

Absolutely brilliant and beautifully written post. And, one that may possibly be of benefit to others, not simply the OP to whom this is ostensibly addressed.

Oh, thank you, that's very kind of you to say. It would be wonderful if the things I've worked hard to learn in life, and the wisdom imparted to me by others along the way, could benefit someone else.

I think most people want to leave other people feeling better for having come in contact with them. I have unfortunately had a number of amazing friends pass away in the last fifteen years. As painful as it has been to lose them from this life, I'm awed to realize how much their kindness and generosity and helpfulness has lived on in the positive influences they have had on so many people, who, in turn, pay it all forward.

When you realize how the good we do can survive beyond us, it makes you want to aspire to your personal best. Thank you for letting me know I made that step forward. I think you and others who have reached out to Stephen have also shared the best within you. I hope Stephen feels the care and positive thoughts and energy flowing to him in this thread and finds some strength in it. May any others in need find it as well.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I'm feeling a lot of anxiety today, probably due to a meeting I had with my dad last night.

We were supposed to get together to connect and for me to share with him everything I've learned about myself recently and discuss how much he is willing/able to help financially with the therapy costs.

But then he started talking about how "everything changed" after the baby was born, and how we "saw another side of my wife" that we had never seen before. He told me that he may never visit our house again because it's too painful for him to watch my wife "clutching" the baby and not letting her explore and experience things more. The accusation is patently absurd, our daughter explores and plays to her heart's delight, and everyone who meets her is blown away by how calm and happy she is. My wife is very proud of the care she gives her, literally responding to every cue every second of every day, and I am equally proud of my wife for it.

But my dad went on about how I should "consider the possibility" that our baby is being deprived of something and that we're oppressing her. An example? When we were at my brother's birthday party at my parents house, my wife took the baby out to the guest apartment where we were staying when she got tired, in order to put her to sleep for the night. My dad thought it would have been more normal and healthy to just let her stay at the party, pass out eventually (she would have been up for several more hours, getting very upset and overtired), and set her on the couch in the other room, and then pick her up and take her out to the apartment once the party is over.

So he has these absurd notions and these examples that don't hold up to scrutiny at all, but then he goes off about it and it just makes me really really sad, and I told him that. I told him that he's just completely wrong and that I'm really sad and disappointed and offended that he's saying these things.

I met with him again today briefly to tell him that it's just completely unacceptable for him to tell me things about how my wife may be messed up, or ask me questions like "do you think a different woman may not have had such a big problem with mom?" I think I partially got through to him. But it is exceedingly frustrating. What do I do? If he says things like this is there any way I can maintain a relationship with him while maintaining loyalty to my wife?

On the other side of the aisle, anxiety surrounding my mom continues because I feel like as my wife feels more and more heard and respected by me, she pushes things farther and farther in terms of what she says she is comfortable with regarding my mom. She says that she may never be able to have any kind of a relationship with my mom. She says that I should expect her to never have a relationship with her, and then if she ever does feel comfortable with her in the future, that it could just be a pleasant surprise for me.

I told her that I respect her feelings completely, and that I hope that in the future, when she trusts me completely and feels fully respected by me, that she would be able to have Some sort of limited, civil relationship with my mom, and my mom would be able to have some relationship with her granddaughter. She said this sounds very iffy and problematic, and that it sounds like I'm only doing everything I'm doing now as a means to ultimately getting my mom what she wants again. But I had said that I'm perfectly fine with things going back to the way they were before our daughter was born, which meant seeing my mom every few months, never specifically planned visits, etc, and my wife seemed really happy with that. It went from visits every two weeks, to visits every month, to a six-month ban, to being happy with no more regular visits ever (just whenever we happen to see her, every few months probably), and I thought we had finally arrived at a place that was comfortable for both of us, but now she's saying she doesn't think she can have any sort of relationship with my mom ever, which basically means my mom can't have any relationship with our daughter. So it's like my wife was never going to be happy until she could secure a complete ban on my mom forever.

Right now I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that it's okay for my wife to say "Our daughter can never see your mom." That hits me in a very unpleasant way right now and feels very unreasonable and unfair. I'll be honest, when I think of it in terms of having to choose between my mom and my wife, my emotions still tug me very strongly in the direction of my mom. I begin psychoanalysis in a couple days, and I will be diving into this head first. It just doesn't feel right. Yes, my mom is narcissistic and emotionally abused me. Yes, my wife has found it very difficult and unpleasant to be around her. Yes, I put her feelings first for several months after our baby was born. But once all these issues are sorted out and I've spent considerable time in psychotherapy, being a loyal husband, etc, I don't feel it is unreasonable for me to say "hey, I'd like my mom to be able to see her granddaughter once in a while."

My wife says that it's demented if I have an emotional need for two people to have a relationship with each other. So if it was a serious emotional need of mine to see my mom have a relationship with my daughter, that wouldn't make sense to her because if she doesn't have that relationship with her, it doesn't affect my relationship with my mom or with my daughter. She says she is disturbed by the idea that I would have a 'need' to see my mom have a relationship with my daughter.

She most recently said that she doesn't know how she will feel in the future. But if I give any indication whatsoever that I have any hopes for any sort of grandma/granddaughter relationship in the future, that makes my wife very uncomfortable and makes her feel like all the progress I've been seeming to make has just been a ploy to eventually get my mom what she wants.

She talked more about how even if my mom can play nicely with our daughter, that she is going to have those thoughts and feelings about wishing that she could see her more and (subconsciously) that she could use her to fulfill her own emotional needs, which results in emotional abuse of the child. So she says it's like saying "okay darling, go play with grandma, she Probably won't hurt you," and that that makes no sense, because why would you let your child play with someone where there's a concern about emotional abuse? Unless that person could contribute something really special and unique to your child's life.

My view is that it's absurd to think that any emotional abuse could happen when she's only seeing my mom once in a while, and never being alone with her. I just don't feel like it makes sense for that to be a factor or a concern, there's no way she could experience emotional abuse playing with my mom for a bit every few months. My wife counters that a pedophile could play nicely with our daughter once every few months. I counter that my mom doesn't have sick thoughts in her head like a pedophile would. My wife counters that my mom's involuntary wish to use our daughter as an emotional caretaker is just as bad as a pedophile's sexual wishes because if indulged, it results in abuse for the child.

I guess in the end she is not at this point saying "We can never see your mom again, get over it." She's saying she may feel differently when our daughter isn't so little and helpless, she's saying she may feel differently once I've been through therapy, etc. One other thing she said was that if at any point I say something like "hey my mom's going to be in town, can we meet her at a park for a few hours?" that she wouldn't consider that evidence of any problem, but that if she replied "no, I'm not comfortable with that," then if I said anything other than "oh okay, I'll either go see her by myself or we won't see her at all," that that Would be evidence of a problem, of me not respecting her feelings.
[doublepost=1464154757][/doublepost]Just to clarify, my wife and I are still doing very well. The conversation I discuss above ended on a good note, never got really unpleasant, etc. I continued to clarify that I respect her feelings and that I'm even comfortable with extending the ban to a year, etc, and so we stayed in a good place throughout the discussion. And we have not been having a lot of discussions like this lately.
[doublepost=1464155152][/doublepost]Also to clarify, my dad is pretty clear on my mom in terms of her issues. He used to come over to our house and rant about how horrible she is, and my wife would sympathize with him, and they'd get along really well. Even yesterday when I met with my dad, he was saying how he wants to divorce her, how she's impossible, etc, and he said that he doesn't blame my wife for not wanting to see her very much. It's almost like his criticisms of our parenting have nothing to do with my mom, though my wife points out that he never said such things before my mom became really upset about limited visit times. The point is that he openly talks about how "****ed up" she is, and said he'll pay the entirety of my psychotherapy bills.

 

[5105973]

Wow, that was weird poop wth your dad. You handled it like a real cool man, a real true healthy adult. That couldn't have been easy but dude, you totally nailed it!

The rest of it, you're handling well. I can see why it disturbs you to think of your mom never having any relationship at all with your daughter. You've been honest with your wife about your feelings. She's been honest with you about hers. You both make good points. The problem is this isn't something you can solve right now, so just take a deep breath and put it back in your "in basket" to be worked on later.

I can tell you, though, from surviving SEVERE psychological damage inflicted on me by my paternal grandmother, as well as the never ending conflict between that woman and my mom, that it IS definitely possible to damage a child in just a few (3-5) visits a year. It's possible for just a handful of visits with a toxic in law to cast a huge pall over a person's childhood.

My grandma was one of those people I was telling you about that I had no recourse but to turn over to God in prayer. She lived to be 100 years old. That's how long it took God to fix that hellion, lol. But she did change and at the end it was a good relationship. She even died loving my mom and my mom loving her. But damn, we all were psychological wrecks. My mom's own latent problems were made a hundred times worse by my grandma's toxic traits. The best term I've ever heard to describe Grandma was "psychological vampire." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01101/whos-the-emotional-vampire-in-your-life

Oddly enough my dad is the one who wanted to sever all ties with both his parents. So much of what made my dad a problematic parent can be traced to his parents, most especially his mother, who sounds a lot like yours in many ways, though there are also many differences which resulted in my dad being less attached to her. But he did have problems with immaturity because of his mother.

My mom is the one who insisted on keeping a relationship and gritting her teeth through it. It was a huge mistake in many ways and cost my mom her mental health and cost my parents a lot of happiness in their marriage. It cost me my self esteem and a happy childhood. And set me back developmentally so that at age 20, I was more like 15 in a lot of ways, because my grandmother could completely undercut my sense of self with just a few well placed words during short encounters each visit. She was really good at that. Nobody else could get to me. Unhealthy messages in tv and media? Bah, I was too smart to fall for that crap. Peer pressure? Not a problem. Bullies at school? Hah, piece of cake. But toxic grandma was ...toxic. Like corrosive acid on my self esteem.

I'm not saying all hope of a future relationship with you mom and your daughter is doomed. If your mother agrees to therapy and follows through and changes, there's hope in a big way, right there. But I am saying, no I'm warning you, that your wife is an intelligent insightful woman to recognize that the threat to her child's well being is very real and that the analogy to a pedophile is very accurate in terms of the damage that a toxic person can wreak in even just very limited contact. .

Your daughter is so fortunate to have such a smart mom advocating for her well being. I'd have loved to have had a mom like her. It would have saved me a lot of suffering. Given how long my grandma did live, it would have saved me a lifetime of suffering. Gran died only five years ago. Granted, we got our happy ending, but at a huge price paid by too many.

So your wife's misgivings are something to seriously consider. But you don't have to act on them or decide on them today. I realize in some ways your wife is pressuring you to, because she needs reassurance. You're unfortunately just going to have to repeat yourself to everyone for awhile. You will have to keep reiterating boundaries to your parents and reassurances to your wife. The rest will come in time with the therapy.
[doublepost=1464176088][/doublepost]Oh I forgot to address why my mother insisted on maintaining a relationship with the toxic in-laws. My mom is mostly Asian. She was raised with a lot of Asian cultural values, most specifically the strong taboo against rejecting parents no matter how vile and destructive they may be. Lol, if you ever get a chance to watch an Asian soap opera, there are entire serials dedicated to exploring the suffering of adult children under oppressive elders. It makes for great tv but horrible real life. Fortunately the reality is more balanced and plenty of Asian elders are lovely, like my other grandma who was an angel on this earth.
[doublepost=1464178692][/doublepost]I just realized something. I said how fortunate your daughter was to have her mom be the kind of person she is. I should also have given you some credit, too.

What you're doing is NOT easy. You've had to really scramble and make a LOT of progress in a very short amount of time in order to save your marriage and try to find your new footing. You handled your dad very impressively. And given how attached you have been to your mom and how clearly damaging that attachment has been, you've made quite a bit of progress. Your daughter is indeed fortunate to have a father who cares enough to put forth the enormous amount of effort it takes to rectify damaging flaws that were instilled almost since birth by toxic parenting.

Keep up the good work. You CAN do it. You WILL do it. When you feel yourself stressing, just step back and acknowledge it isn't all going to get resolved in a day. But you're taking the right steps. Baby steps. Every journey consists of individual steps. And if you stumble off the path, reorient and step back in the right direction.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Yeah, I'm feeling a lot of anxiety right now. No appetite, etc. It really sucks. I wanted to just be happy and move forward with my family and not think about my mom for a while. I'm not having any contact with her at all until around January anyway, so why should I be anxious now? I mean, I wasn't anxious until my wife started talking about maybe never being able to have a relationship with my mom again. And she says that if I feel anxious when she says that, that that means I still have a problem and that I'm still trying to make my mom happy in an unhealthy way. She says that when she says something like that, she can see my face twist up in horror and anxiety like "Oh my god, no, that can't be, my mom will be devastated."

She says that if I feel any sadness about the thought of my mom not having a relationship with our daughter, it should be in a "I'm sad my mom is messed up and can't have good relationships with people" kind of way.

Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh. See a big part of me still wants to deny that my mom has any problems at all. A big part of me is completely loyal to her and just wants to be with her again and make her happy.

In any case, I truly do not think that my mom would inflict emotional damage on our daughter with infrequent visits. She doesn't say or do twisted things within the period of a short visit. Her psychological problems have a big impact when she's raising a child herself, but when she plays with our daughter she just plays with her. "Do you like this toy? Is that fun? Do you want to go outside?" Etc. She sings to her, she calls herself the "singing grandma." If she ever did anything twisted or manipulative, I would take it very seriously. But the disagreement between my wife and I is that I'm saying that if my mom behaves like a perfectly nice person and just plays nicely with our daughter, that whatever psychological problems she has internally would have no effect on our daughter. My wife says that those internal psychological problems are a concern to her EVEN if they have no effect on our daughter.

Last night I told her that I really believe that by the time my mom is in our life again, she will have come to terms with the idea of essentially not having a relationship with her granddaughter, and so she will be able to approach each time she does see her as a fun special occasion, rather than in a "oh man it's been way too long, this is so tragic, these visits are too far apart for me to form the bond I want to form" kind of way. My wife was very skeptical of the idea that my mom would be capable of approaching the visits in that manner, but kind of implied therefore that if she could, that that would make my wife more comfortable with the thought of my mom playing with our daughter.

Once in a while I'm able to make myself feel happy and free from all this. The last time it happened was when we were at the zoo last week with my wife's sister. We were walking along, and I scrambled my thoughts and just cleared my head and was able to see my life in a fresh, open way for just a few seconds, completely free from any anxiety or needs surrounding my parents. Oh man. Happiness. Real happiness. I was a man with a stable job, a beautiful wife, beautiful baby girl, beautiful house, literally nothing out of place and nothing to complain about or wish to be different. I saw it like that for those fleeting moments, and my whole body was awash with lightness and joy.

What I'd give to feel like that all the time!!!!!!

I keep repeating to myself my uncle's words. "It's not your job to make your mom happy."

Yesterday my dad said that he's going to tell my mom "If you want to have a relationship with your children, you need to go see a counselor!" I told him that I'd rather he didn't do that because it verges on me communicating to my mom through him, which I'm not supposed to do. He said "I need to do it for me! I've had enough man!" I have also already told my mom that she should see a counselor, I mentioned that before. But if she's incapable of it, then my gut feeling is to just give her a pass and be like "oh well, she's incapable of reflecting on herself, so let's be nice to her and let her have a relationship with her granddaughter anyway."

Though again, I doubt that she would inflict emotional damage. She's never going to be saying or doing anything that would harm our daughter's self esteem or do anything like that. I would ask you what sorts of things your grandma did that you consider toxic, but you probably won't tell me. In any case, I feel confident that infrequent visits with my mom could not emotionally harm a child. She doesn't do anything externally that could be harmful, and she'll never be spending time with our daughter without us being there too.

 

[5105973]

My grandma always sneaked in her comments when my parents were busy talking to other family members or to Grandpa. It literally took her only a minute alone with me and one or two sentences.

But that's neither here nor there. She's dead and I'm grown and you're right, no sense telling you the specifics.

Look, my dad and I spent a lot of years training dogs. We learned that training dogs isn't that different from getting along with people. Meaning you don't stop bad behavior unless you provide the right incentives for good behavior and most importantly, provide an immediate consequence for bad behavior. I will skip the example of how I train dogs because this post is already going to be long. So...moving right along...

...In people that means you don't reward or tolerate in any way, shape or form, any behavior that stunts relationships rather than progressing them. In your mom's case, giving her a pass on any sort of bad behavior or even allowing her avoidance of much needed personal reflection is going to let her continue to be a beast.

Yes, she's a beast if she acts in a way that is detrimental to your wife's peace of mind and keeps you anxiously trying to appease her. Do you really seriously even want to RISK finding out what she might be capable of doing to your child? YOUR child, who is dependent upon you for protection and advocating her best interests, NOT your mother's interests.

I'll be blunt, there is nothing I'm seeing in any of your wife's reactions or your current state of mind, or your own accounts, that leads me to believe that any amount of peekaboo and pattycake time with Grandma is beneficial enough to be worth the risk to your child of the kind of trauma this woman seems capable of inflicting on people.

So far, your dad, your brother, you and your wife all seem to have been horribly impacted by this one person. No one person should be granted this much access and license to hurt so many people, let alone be allowed to impact a new generation.

The natural consequence of anyone's bad behavior should be that they are not given the opportunity to inflict that behavior on the people they've already hurt. Because if the people they hurt have any sense in their heads, they will run screaming from the room. And guess what, if enough people run screaming from the room, that may serve as a wake up call that "hey, maybe I need to change what I am doing because I seem isolated in a lot of empty rooms these days."

Seriously, what's the incentive to go through the change if people keep humoring you and putting up with your crap?

And I know it's not easy to cut people off. There's an addict in my extended family. Trust me, I know what it's like to have to follow my own advice here. It sucks. But it's necessary and it works.

Action: to hurt or upset people = Consequence: to lose access to these people. To lose all benefits from relationships that one would have gotten had one behaved in a healthy and productive manner with them. Because one did not behave in a healthy and productive manner. One behaved in a damaging manner. Therefore one must accept fallout from the damage one has caused or he/she won't learn and avoid inflicting hurt and will keep repeating bad behavior in the future. It's really that simple.

Action equals consequence. If you negate the consequence you perpetuate the action. This is fundamental. This is why good parents don't fix or excuse their children's bad behavior. We point out how that behavior is impacting the situation and other people, make sure they acknowledge it and make proper amends, but we don't make these amends for them. We as parents can apologize for not exercising better supervision. But it damn well better be our child who apologizes and makes amends for his/her own offense.

In your case we are not talking about a child but about an adult who has acted badly, possibly for reasons that can be understood and forgiven in time, AFTER this adult faces her demons and acknowledges the hurt she has caused and makes amends. Without her doing all of that, she remains a threat. A continued source of bad behavior.

Because so far she has not been forced to confront the consequences of her own actions. You must provide those consequences in terms she can understand. A continued ban. Holding out in the future the possibility of CONDITIONAL visitation, with the condition being therapy or treatment of some sort and a tangible breakthrough as a result of that treatment.

I think it's great that your dad has reached his breaking point and is of his own volition going to ask your mom to seek therapy. You don't need to interfere in that. Your dad is speaking for himself.

Look, sure your mom can't really do too much harm on an infant or toddler. But the moment that toddler develops the ability to process speech, your mother will be able to inflict untold harm and manipulation with just a few carefully chosen words. I was only about three and the damage my grandmother inflicted with ONE sentence took only about a minute to perpetrate. She did it while my mother was preoccupied. I was unfortunately cursed with a memory that does let me remember all the way back to my first birthday party plus snippets before then. You just never know with kids, so don't assume anything about what could impact them at certain ages and stages. Err on the side of caution. Protect your child. This is your duty and your privilege as her parent.

The big reason I even stopped into this thread in the first place and the main reason I stay is because I want to help your wife save your daughter. I love children. I think the biggest mistake so many adults make is failing to appreciate that children are here as their own separate beings, to be who they are and not projections of what we want them to be. Yes, I want to help see you become healthy and happy and free, too. But you're an adult and ultimately you choose whether or not to assume the mantle of adult responsibility and privilege.

Your daughter doesn't have that choice. Most of what she experiences up to her age or majority will be the result of choices made on her behalf by adults. If I can say or do anything to help her be saved from horrible mistakes you seem poised to make, it will have been worth the pain and suffering I had to endure as a result of adults making similar mistakes on my behalf.

One last thing I'll leave you with for now: If your wife is stirring up your anxiety, is it possible to tell her that you haven't yet reached a point in your therapy where you can have these kinds of conversations without experiencing setbacks or anxiety? You can let her know you feel secure and stronger and more adult when you can just live in the moment for now, and that it's helping you set your identity as an adult, a husband and a father in your head to NOT think about your mom. And let her know that your therapy IS helping you toward accepting a permanent ban or other concessions she wants of you, but it remains hard to discuss clearly this early in. I can certainly understand her pressing you for a commitment to a permanent ban. For all the reasons I've already outlined. But I can also see you haven't had nearly enough therapy to have a productive discussion on it. You're still in many ways stuck in a loop in your head. Though it is getting better.

This is a tough one.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Ah, the waves of crippling panic and anxiety washing through me from head to toe as I imagine my wife reading your last post and then saying "Your mom can never see our daughter again."

I wish you would give me even a hypothetical example of the type of short sentence that can do untold harm in a matter of seconds. I maintain that I can't imagine my mom doing anything like that. She doesn't consciously cook up manipulative schemes. She's completely unconscious, that's her problem. It means she has very little control over her problems, but it also means that she does not cook up malicious plots.

You spoke in pretty extreme terms about my mom in your last post. What has given you this sort of impression of her? Was it just the stories I related of different examples of her behavior?

See, here's the thing. A big part of me still feels like nothing about my parents was really that big a problem, and we're only discussing it as such now because of the way my wife feels. A big part of me still feels like her reaction to my mom is overblown, probably because I was putting my mom's feelings first for a while there, which is understandable, but if I hadn't done that, my wife would have simply found my mom annoying, kept visits fairly limited, but would not have been talking about a ban.

Let me see if I can explain this. See, my wife uses the fact that I put my mom's feelings first as evidence that my mom emotionally harmed me as I was growing up. But a question that comes up in my mind is "what if it wasn't reasonable for me to be asked to limit my mom's visits so much, and what I was doing was not 'putting her feelings first,' but rather just fighting for a reasonable situation where she can have a relationship with her granddaughter?" Imagine a scenario where my mom is actually a nice normal person. I want her to have a close relationship with her granddaughter, and my wife hates her. Then my wife ends up saying "your mom really is a horrible person like I thought because she made you so loyal to her," but all I was doing was saying "hey it would be nice if my mom could have a relationship with her granddaughter." So then my normal behavior and my normal, healthy feelings regarding my mom end up painted as proof that my mom is horrible and that my behavior was bad. So admonishing the desire for a grandma/granddaughter relationship is a loop that begins and completes itself. If wanting that is bad just because, then the existence of that desire becomes evidence that it was in fact bad and that the mom is bad.

Let me be very clear. I am fairly certain that my mom is not a nice, normal person. But I can't help wondering whether my perceived "unhealthy attachment" with her is simply the result of being unfairly pried apart from her. If our daughter was taken away from my wife and was upset, we wouldn't conclude that that means she had an unhealthy attachment to her.

I know there is a lot of evidence that things were not normal or healthy between my mom and me, but on a gut emotional level I often feel like the problem is not with her, but with the pushing her away. I can't help it, there's just a part of me that feels that way right now. I imagine my mom looking at me with this expression, like "you were supposed to be there for me, you were my best friend, my confidant, you were supposed to share with me the joy of your baby, you're my baby, your wife is tearing you away from me, you picked the wrong woman, she's cold and she's ruining your relationship with me and ruining your life, this is unbelievably tragic."

I am becoming really really curious what you would think of my mom if you met her or saw her interacting with my family. See, everyone is encouraging me to develop my own identity and my own thoughts, ideas, and feelings. This means that I also shouldn't just take everything you say as gospel, right? I need to always think for myself and ask myself what I feel and what I think. Even when I look very objectively, I just don't see her saying things to our daughter that would harm her. I just really don't. I mean, I grew up with her, I do know her to some degree. I just don't think she's like that. She would want to try and be as nice and respectful as possible in order to facilitate being invited back. She really tries to be good, she really does. Something along the way really messed her up in her life, but she really tries to be good.

With all of this said, bad behavior on her part will not be rewarded at all. After the ban is over, we will be taking things very slowly, and I'm going to be testing the waters with my mom before she sees our daughter again. Look, I just really don't see the harm in her playing with our daughter, I just don't. She plays really nicely with kids, kids always like her a lot. My dad too.

One thing that stuck with me that my mom said a few weeks before the ban started, was about how in the future "we'll see" about what the relationships can be like, and something about how "If I feel trusted with her," meaning our daughter. "If I feel trusted with her." What does that mean? My dad also did a similar thing when he said "I'll visit, and if I don't feel comfortable in your house then I won't come anymore." And by "feel comfortable" he meant "let me criticize your wife and your parenting."

This whole thing just bums me out. On some level I'm just not buying that my mom is really that bad. You might agree if you met her. I don't know. My wife has this idea so hardwired now that my mom is emotionally abusive, untrustworthy, horrible, etc... it just seems too extreme to me. I honestly don't quite see my mom that way. Most people who know her describe her as intense, sometimes overbearing, critical, annoying sometimes regarding food (talking about raw food diet and how if you don't eat raw it's unhealthy, etc), but they would never think she's an abusive person or that she should be banned from seeing her granddaughter. Even when she was visiting every two weeks, she knew lots of people in her community who found it strange that she was only getting to visit that much.

I don't know. I know that right now I just need to live my life and tell my wife that we won't ever do anything she's not comfortable with. I know that. Things are simple right now. I have my first psychotherapy session tomorrow. I'm basically going to delve right into all of this, everything I just wrote here. I just don't know what to do with the feeling that my wife is being really unfair when she talks about the possibility of my mom not being able to see our daughter ever. You say that it makes sense given what my mom is like, but I don't even know exactly what my mom is like! I know that I should form my own thoughts and observations about it after getting some more distance from her and learning to see her objectively, and that I shouldn't just blindly accept what you say as the ultimate truth. Would you agree with that?

Last thing for now.... you should know that if Anything even slightly fishy ever happened while my mom was visiting, my wife would be on it instantly and there would be serious consequences for my mom. Even if she didn't catch it as it happened, she would be able to tell that something was wrong later, while interacting with our daughter. But as I write this I have a troubling thought. If my wife hates my mom so much, our daughter could pick up on that vibe and decide that she doesn't like her either. That would make me really really sad, and very resentful towards my wife. So there could be a situation where my wife is in a bad mood after a visit from my mom, and then our daughter is sad too, and my wife will say "your mom made our daughter sad, she can't come ever again." What do you think of this sort of scenario? It would come across to me like "I'm going to be in a bad mood when your mom comes, so that our daughter will get sad so that I can ban your mom forever." It would reek of control and manipulation to me. Though my wife claims that she cannot control her feelings and that if she's in a bad mood when my mom's around, she really can't do anything about it. But I still imagine feeling great resentment if that sort of thing were to happen. I just can't imagine things working out well at this time. Even if my wife agrees to see my mom in the future, our daughter will dislike my mom because of how my wife feels about her.

I feel like maybe the only reasonable option is what my dad said. She's going to have to go see a counselor and actually find it in herself to reflect on herself and work towards some sort of breakthrough, if she wants to have a relationship with her children and grandchild. But see, my wife says my mom has a personality disorder, and that you can never really cure personality disorders because they are part of who the person is. A person can learn to behave in a more socially appropriate way, but the way they feel inside can never be changed. She says that my mom's disorder is incurable, and that her concerns would mostly still be there even if she went to counseling. Ugh. I don't know what to do.
[doublepost=1464197486][/doublepost]I wish that I could at least know that when our daughter is two or three years old that my wife would trust me to supervise her with my mom so that she could have some relationship with her grandma without my wife's dislike of her tainting it or getting in the way. When I talk to people about this I very often get "can you just spend time with your mom and the baby without your wife?" I get that a lot, it's like the #1 solution people think of in a situation where one spouse hates a parent-in-law. But at this point my wife says she's not sure if she'd feel comfortable with me spending time with my mom and our daughter, and that she always has to supervise. She says she would never intentionally try to poison our daughter against my mom, but I feel like it would just happen on its own because of how my wife feels.

 

[StephenCampbell]

You know, when my wife first got pregnant, we Skyped my mom to tell her, and my wife said "we got you another Christmas present too (this was around Christmas time, and my wife had bought her a few gifts), but you don't get it for nine months." My mom leaped out of her chair and went crazy with joy, just like in all those "pregnancy announcement" YouTube videos you can find. For as long as I can remember she's been talking about how much she wants grandchildren. And as you can see my wife had a much better relationship with her a year and a half ago than she does now. It's just sad. I mean think about it. That really is how it was when she got pregnant. My mom wasn't my wife's favorite person, but there were no problems. She even asked her not long after that, "how many grandchildren do you want?" Now even if my mom learns her boundaries and behaves respectfully, my wife will hate her forever, and it's just really sad. I didn't sign on to this. I didn't sign onto having a child and having it be completely segregated from my mom. Doesn't what I describe here suggest that the explosive nature of the problems these last several months have more to do with me not emotionally supporting my wife, and not so much to do with my mom's behavior in itself? I mean, if I had always respected my wife's feelings, she definitely would never have thought of a total ban. My mom's behavior while visiting was not what made things explode. My wife would get annoyed with this or that, but if I had been with Her, standing by Her, empathizing with Her, the issue wouldn't have exploded the way it did. Now she's like "your mom is an emotional abuser" and there's no going back from that. We would have never been here if I had just stood by her the whole time. This was my mess up, and it made my mom seem that much more horrible to her, simply because she was the person whose feelings I was putting first. My wife would have never even thought of her as an abusive person if I had been a solid husband throughout the last year.

 

[Khalanad75]

You know, when my wife first got pregnant, we Skyped my mom to tell her, and my wife said "we got you another Christmas present too (this was around Christmas time, and my wife had bought her a few gifts), but you don't get it for nine months." My mom leaped out of her chair and went crazy with joy, just like in all those "pregnancy announcement" YouTube videos you can find. For as long as I can remember she's been talking about how much she wants grandchildren. And as you can see my wife had a much better relationship with her a year and a half ago than she does now. It's just sad. I mean think about it. That really is how it was when she got pregnant. My mom wasn't my wife's favorite person, but there were no problems. She even asked her not long after that, "how many grandchildren do you want?" Now even if my mom learns her boundaries and behaves respectfully, my wife will hate her forever, and it's just really sad. I didn't sign on to this. I didn't sign onto having a child and having it be completely segregated from my mom. Doesn't what I describe here suggest that the explosive nature of the problems these last several months have more to do with me not emotionally supporting my wife, and not so much to do with my mom's behavior in itself? I mean, if I had always respected my wife's feelings, she definitely would never have thought of a total ban. My mom's behavior while visiting was not what made things explode. My wife would get annoyed with this or that, but if I had been with Her, standing by Her, empathizing with Her, the issue wouldn't have exploded the way it did. Now she's like "your mom is an emotional abuser" and there's no going back from that. We would have never been here if I had just stood by her the whole time. This was my mess up, and it made my mom seem that much more horrible to her, simply because she was the person whose feelings I was putting first. My wife would have never even thought of her as an abusive person if I had been a solid husband throughout the last year.

And your still thinking about your mom.

Had it not come out now with you treating your wife as an incubator and hired help, it would have come out sooner or later.

You are now trying to force all this blame on to you (you do get to claim a lot of it), but the way your mother raised you is the root of this. It does come back to her.

I love my mom. With her having MS I have done more things for her than most sons do for their mothers. But you know what, I still love my wife more. I CHOSE my wife, I was born to my mother. One was my own thoughts and feelings, one was just simply the way it is. (and this isn't to downplay that I love my mom, but the choice to spend the rest of my life with someone is a huge decision(I don't believe in divorce)).

As they say, you made your bed, now lie in it.

 

[StephenCampbell]

And your still thinking about your mom.

Had it not come out now with you treating your wife as an incubator and hired help, it would have come out sooner or later.

You are now trying to force all this blame on to you (you do get to claim a lot of it), but the way your mother raised you is the root of this. It does come back to her.

I love my mom. With her having MS I have done more things for her than most sons do for their mothers. But you know what, I still love my wife more. I CHOSE my wife, I was born to my mother. One was my own thoughts and feelings, one was just simply the way it is. (and this isn't to downplay that I love my mom, but the choice to spend the rest of my life with someone is a huge decision(I don't believe in divorce)).

As they say, you made your bed, now lie in it.

Does your last line refer to my choice to get married? All I'm saying is that I hope that in the not-too-distant future, there can be some room for my mom to be in our life to some degree, and to have some sort of relationship with her granddaughter. Not a close one, not one involving regular visits, but just to be someone that we see sometimes, the way it was before our daughter was born. It's like I work really hard to come to terms and make peace with a new level of separation from my mom, and each time I finally am able to embrace the new place, my wife pushes it one step further and I get major anxiety again. I made peace with once a month visits instead of bi-weekly. My wife said that was fine. Then she was like "well actually not, once a month is too much for me," so I voluntarily came up with the idea of not even having set scheduled visit times, and just letting things be the way they were before the baby was born, and my wife was overjoyed at that thought. We talked about even going to visit my folks once or twice a year for a couple days, and then just seeing my mom occasionally the way it was before the baby (probably once every few months). So this was obviously very different than the whole "try to get my mom here on a very regular basis to form a bond with the baby" thing, and I had really made peace with it and was happy.

Now that I became happy and comfortable with that, my wife is saying "well, maybe I can never see your mom again and she can never see her granddaughter." It's frustrating! I was so happy just thinking about how we're going to spend all this time away from my mom, growing together as a family, me going through therapy, etc, and that then six, eight, ten months from now, life would just go on like normal and we would see my mom occasionally, just whenever it happens, like it was before. I wouldn't have expected more than once every few months, and my wife seemed very happy with that as well.

I can't come to terms or make peace with the idea of a permanent ban. And it's just really frustrating that my wife is now pushing it that far after seeming so happy with the idea of just having things be the way they were before the baby.

She has said that she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future, and she isn't dead set on a permanent ban, but the conversation has shifted in that direction and she's uncomfortable with me feeling comfortable with the thought of things going back to pre-baby style.

 

[mscriv]

@StephenCampbell, I know you are using this thread as a way to process your feelings and get feedback. That's understandable and I hope it has been helpful. However, the truth of the matter is that the relational problems you have described require seriously hard work on the part of multiple people. Additionally, this is not a race, but a lifelong journey we are talking about.

Look, I'm gonna give it to you straight and I'm a credentialed professional counselor who specializes in marriage and family work in addition to leading a marriage ministry, speaking at marriage conferences, trainings, etc.... What you are experiencing is a family problem that spans across multiple generations. Everyone involved has work to do and should seek professional help or additional support to work through this. Individual therapy, family therapy, marriage therapy, faith based support, community support groups or programs, etc. etc. etc.

You need to continue to work on yourself through individual therapy and I would suggest you and your wife get some marital/family therapy to address the struggles that are occurring between the two of you. From what you have described both of you have unrealistic expectations, difficulty with boundaries, communication challenges, differing views of parenting/family, etc.

As for your mom and dad, well, you can't control them and can't dictate whether they seek professional help or not. However, when you and your wife get healthy and learn to function as a team then you will together be able to positively negotiate family relationships with parents, children, extended family, etc.