I would imagine a visit of a few days; 3-5, maybe. I'm just going by my own late grandparents. It seemed like a good number. One kept in touch, and each visit was a special occasion.
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Thoughts on difficult family situation?
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I would imagine a visit of a few days; 3-5, maybe. I'm just going by my own late grandparents. It seemed like a good number. One kept in touch, and each visit was a special occasion.
Well, my wife says that I care about my mom's feelings more than I care about hers. She'll say "I can handle an afternoon visit from your mom every three or four weeks" and I will basically say "but she'll be so sad if she only gets to come that much, are you sure we can't have her come more often?"
Right now my wife is saying that she doesn't feel like she really has a husband, and that I've always put the feelings of my family of origin ahead of her feelings whenever we've been around them. I think she's right.
The problem is that a lot of grandparents and mother-in-laws are difficult to be around, but my mom is unique in that she is a narcissist, and she wishes that our daughter could be her baby. She comes into our home and my wife feels the overbearing presence of this woman who wishes that she could steal the loyalty of her husband and baby away from her. My mom has not so far been very good at respecting my wife while visiting. She gets very frustrated whenever anything reminds her that she is not in a parental role with the baby.
I think she is getting a lot better with this stuff, but now my wife says it doesn't matter, she doesn't want her visiting more than once every three or four weeks. (These would be just visits from late morning until mid evening). Because of her serious psychological issues, she doesn't feel comfortable with more than that, even if my mom got better at Acting normal. She would have to really undergo a transformation and become a less selfish, more caring person, in order for my wife to feel comfortable with more frequent visits.
My wife says very clearly "This is how that conversation should have gone. I said that I'm not comfortable with your mom visiting more than once every three or four weeks, and then you should have said 'okay, she won't visit more than once every three or four weeks.'" She says my loyalty should be to her first, and that I shouldn't argue with her on behalf of my mom's feelings. I am her husband.
What do you think?
Seek help to find out why you're not hearing what your wife is saying... she's right.
The Internet is not a substitute for therapy.
It sounds like you do want to keep your mom happy, but your clearly stuck in the middle. Support your mom, make the wife angry. Support the wife, make the mom happy.
I think your mom needs to understand what her role is in this situation. Not as a parent but as a grandparent. It sounds like she's fighting for the validation of you, the baby, and maybe even the attention over the baby in the situation. It doesn't sound healthy at all. Does your wife feel your mother is literally a physical danger to your child?
I have to agree with the poster above. Again, I can't say for sure but it sounds to me like you're somewhat blinded by your desire to appease your mother. It's not normal for a grandparent to try and steal the attention of the parents from a newborn or to be working so hard to be in a relationship with a grandchild that should form quite easily with time.
I suspect your wife has legitamate concerns. For the same of your marriage and daughter you really should try and find a solution to this. It's very important that you validate her feelings.
Theres no easy solution to this. Again, the best thing you can do is get some professional help that can work with the 3 of you to reconcile you're various opinions. This is not something that can be solved with a single idea. It will take time, effort, compromise, etc- and likely someone to facilitate the process.
I think your mom needs to understand what her role is in this situation. Not as a parent but as a grandparent. It sounds like she's fighting for the validation of you, the baby, and maybe even the attention over the baby in the situation. It doesn't sound healthy at all. Does your wife feel your mother is literally a physical danger to your child?
I have to agree with the poster above. Again, I can't say for sure but it sounds to me like you're somewhat blinded by your desire to appease your mother. It's not normal for a grandparent to try and steal the attention of the parents from a newborn or to be working so hard to be in a relationship with a grandchild that should form quite easily with time.
I suspect your wife has legitamate concerns. For the same of your marriage and daughter you really should try and find a solution to this. It's very important that you validate her feelings.
Theres no easy solution to this. Again, the best thing you can do is get some professional help that can work with the 3 of you to reconcile you're various opinions. This is not something that can be solved with a single idea. It will take time, effort, compromise, etc- and likely someone to facilitate the process.
I agree.
You should heed what your wife is saying and respect her wishes on this matter. Limit your mother's visits much more than you are now.
Not very good for crowd sourcing affirmation either...
I know that what I need to hear is that I need to respect my wife's wishes and set up boundaries with my mom in accordance with my wife's feelings. Thank you to everyone who said things along those lines, that is what I was looking for.
I think you've made the right decision.
I would prepare yourself to feel guilty towards your mother, and you will both feel pain at first, but it will pass.
You need to set up boundaries in accordance with your feelings.
This shouldn't be about deciding between placating your mom or your wife, or how best to placate both. I'm skeptical setting a limit would work at all because what's going to stop your mom from inventing reasons to come over anyway? What's going to stop your wife from saying this schedule sounded ok at first, but now it's too onerous? You'll again be stuck in the middle trying to play UN.
Figure out how often you actually want to see your mom and base the schedule on that. Not how little you can get away with seeing her to avoid an angry outburst, but how much you genuinely want to see her. If you can only tolerate seeing her on holidays, for example, then stick to that and realize as an adult you're actually not obligated to have a relationship with someone you don't want to.
I guess something like that might sort of make sense for those who don't live close by and visiting is a trip basically, but just a few visits a year if everyone lives nearby would often enough be not typical.
Can't you just have your mother go have dinner once a week or something and not stay from morning till night? It would drive me crazy too if I saw someone I don't like the whole day.
My mother lives about four hours away. Half hour drive + waiting for the ferry + hour ferry ride + hour and a half drive.
I wouldn't personally need to see her every week.
Does a visit for four or five hours once a month seem reasonable?
My wife has also said that she would be very open to the idea of her never visiting us and instead us going there four or five times a year for a couple days. That seems like it might work a lot better, but it can be difficult to do with my work schedule, and the ferry is expensive, etc.
Because my mom was an overbearing narcissistic parent to me growing up, and I never developed a proper sense of self and depend on the approval and confirmation of others to know that what I'm doing is right or acceptable.
[doublepost=1460693661][/doublepost]I need feedback on this because my own feelings are heavily influenced by my mom, and it causes stress between my wife and I. She feels I'm betraying her and not upholding my vows when I put the feelings of my family of origin ahead of her feelings.
I need some outside context, some reflection from the normal world, in terms of what is or is not average, acceptable, sensible, etc, in terms of in law visits in our situation.
Very well then.
Stephen: What I get is the sense that what you want to hear is that your wife should be open to persuasion to meet your mum.
You married your wife - you did not choose your mother. In other words, you chose your wife, - and she chose you. Therefore, you have a duty of care to try to offer support to your wife when those who came with you as part of the package of your marriage - such as your mother - seek to trample boundaries and set agendas on your relationship with your wife.
The thing is, Stephen, she is your mother, not your wife's. Thus, the issue is your relationship with your mother. Expecting your wife to solve that - or deal with that - on top of the problems of having responsibility for a young - and doubtless demanding - infant is asking too much. You have to take responsibility for your relationship with your mum, not your wife. This is not your wife's problem to solve, and above all, nor is it one for an internet forum.
In any case, I well recall reading your earlier threads on the somewhat fraught nature of your relationships - so I have some sense of the background. Most of all, I recall a thread which wondered whether your then fiancée should continue with school, or marry you and have children and be a stay at home mother.
My sense is that your wife had already made considerable sacrifices to be with you. Now, you are asking for more, and rather than validating the concerns of your wife, and supporting your wife, and young child and new family unit, you are siding with your family of origin because you are unable and unwilling to set boundaries. No wonder your wife sees this as disloyal, a betrayal - and these are very strong words, words I doubt she used lightly - and completely lacking in any expression of support for her.
In my first post, I suggested that you visit your mother, and I repeat that. Your wife has said that she will be open to this; at least then, your mother will not be invading your wife's space and seeking to take control of it.
Is your wife a SAHM, as you indicated you world prefer in earlier threads? If so, do you make a meal out of costs if something is a source of inconvenience?
Frankly, money as a cost incurred is irrelevant beside peace of mind, - is the cost of the ferry worth paying when put against the positives to be gained from offering visible support and reassurance to your wife? And the same with time? Quite candidly Stephen, you will have to spend both money and time (time as in leave, and money as in cash) to make things easier, - and not harder - for your wife, by enabling a few visits to your mother.
This is your problem - and not your wife's. And if you add it to your wife's many problems she will be quite justified in seeing it as a betrayal, and - whether you like it to not - it will put a serious and permanent strain on your marriage.
[doublepost=1460716374][/doublepost]
Stephen, to try to frame this matter in terms of what is 'average', 'normal', 'acceptable' and 'sensible' is to miss the point completely. This is a human problem and cannot be solved by mathematical models.
These terms have no relevance whatsoever to your situation, because what others have done - or, what has worked for others - has no relevance here.
It has no relevance because even if you tried to argue percentages, citing words such as 'averages' and 'normal' - offering, say, a hypothetical case where 76% of US families are happy with a weekly visit from grandma and suggesting that this should apply to your wife's situation, and should guide her in reaching a conclusion, she is perfectly justified in saying that the average percentage of family visits have no application whatsoever in her own personal context.
Rather, she doesn't want to see your mother darkening her door, period, and she doesn't wish to be guided by what works for others. In fact, insisting on arguing on such grounds serves to further invalidate her concerns.
Stephen: What I get is the sense that what you want to hear is that your wife should be open to persuasion to meet your mum.
You married your wife - you did not choose your mother. In other words, you chose your wife, - and she chose you. Therefore, you have a duty of care to try to offer support to your wife when those who came with you as part of the package of your marriage - such as your mother - seek to trample boundaries and set agendas on your relationship with your wife.
The thing is, Stephen, she is your mother, not your wife's. Thus, the issue is your relationship with your mother. Expecting your wife to solve that - or deal with that - on top of the problems of having responsibility for a young - and doubtless demanding - infant is asking too much. You have to take responsibility for your relationship with your mum, not your wife. This is not your wife's problem to solve, and above all, nor is it one for an internet forum.
In any case, I well recall reading your earlier threads on the somewhat fraught nature of your relationships - so I have some sense of the background. Most of all, I recall a thread which wondered whether your then fiancée should continue with school, or marry you and have children and be a stay at home mother.
My sense is that your wife had already made considerable sacrifices to be with you. Now, you are asking for more, and rather than validating the concerns of your wife, and supporting your wife, and young child and new family unit, you are siding with your family of origin because you are unable and unwilling to set boundaries. No wonder your wife sees this as disloyal, a betrayal - and these are very strong words, words I doubt she used lightly - and completely lacking in any expression of support for her.
In my first post, I suggested that you visit your mother, and I repeat that. Your wife has said that she will be open to this; at least then, your mother will not be invading your wife's space and seeking to take control of it.
Is your wife a SAHM, as you indicated you world prefer in earlier threads? If so, do you make a meal out of costs if something is a source of inconvenience?
Frankly, money as a cost incurred is irrelevant beside peace of mind, - is the cost of the ferry worth paying when put against the positives to be gained from offering visible support and reassurance to your wife? And the same with time? Quite candidly Stephen, you will have to spend both money and time (time as in leave, and money as in cash) to make things easier, - and not harder - for your wife, by enabling a few visits to your mother.
This is your problem - and not your wife's. And if you add it to your wife's many problems she will be quite justified in seeing it as a betrayal, and - whether you like it to not - it will put a serious and permanent strain on your marriage.
[doublepost=1460716374][/doublepost]
Stephen, to try to frame this matter in terms of what is 'average', 'normal', 'acceptable' and 'sensible' is to miss the point completely. This is a human problem and cannot be solved by mathematical models.
These terms have no relevance whatsoever to your situation, because what others have done - or, what has worked for others - has no relevance here.
It has no relevance because even if you tried to argue percentages, citing words such as 'averages' and 'normal' - offering, say, a hypothetical case where 76% of US families are happy with a weekly visit from grandma and suggesting that this should apply to your wife's situation, and should guide her in reaching a conclusion, she is perfectly justified in saying that the average percentage of family visits have no application whatsoever in her own personal context.
Rather, she doesn't want to see your mother darkening her door, period, and she doesn't wish to be guided by what works for others. In fact, insisting on arguing on such grounds serves to further invalidate her concerns.
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That also sounds like a sensible possibility.
We generally visited our grandparents, not the other way round. That way, you're doing them a favour by doing the travelling, which makes sense as they're older.
I think once a month is ample. In your case, maybe start with that and then gradually reduce to once every couple of months or less.
Adults that can't adult together... I have little sympathy for people that act that way, on either side.
Unless YOU hate your mother cutting her out is not a real option. YOU need to deal with her and your feelings towards her. If that means sitting down and having a talk that makes her butt hurt then so be it. She is an adult and should be able to handle it.
I have had this situation between my grandma and an aunt. They are not the best of friends and don't get along all that well. This ended up causing issues were the aunt would come to Thanksgiving dinner and because she was there grandma would not show up. The second time that happened I had a talk with both of them, separately at first and then together. I will not play middle man in the fight but I will not sacrifice my time with either of them because they can not be in each others presence. Part of that talk was that if either of them decided to get belligerent towards each other they would be called out on it.
Since the talk, they have been at the family gatherings and while they typically don't talk to each other much they are in the same room and are not giving each other looks.
Unless YOU hate your mother cutting her out is not a real option. YOU need to deal with her and your feelings towards her. If that means sitting down and having a talk that makes her butt hurt then so be it. She is an adult and should be able to handle it.
I have had this situation between my grandma and an aunt. They are not the best of friends and don't get along all that well. This ended up causing issues were the aunt would come to Thanksgiving dinner and because she was there grandma would not show up. The second time that happened I had a talk with both of them, separately at first and then together. I will not play middle man in the fight but I will not sacrifice my time with either of them because they can not be in each others presence. Part of that talk was that if either of them decided to get belligerent towards each other they would be called out on it.
Since the talk, they have been at the family gatherings and while they typically don't talk to each other much they are in the same room and are not giving each other looks.
If this situation you have discussed applied to two individuals in a work situation, or with whom one was friendly, or relatives where the relationship was one of relatively equal distance (or closeness), I would tend to agree with you. Bang heads, negotiate, say neither gets to dictate or set boundaries.
However, a relationship with a spouse, especially a spouse who, as a mother, has recently given birth, is in an entirely different category to any, and all, of the others.
Here, stating that your spouse does not get to set boundaries serves to undermine her and invalidate her experience.
And, given the dynamics of the various relationships, over-riding, or disregarding her concerns would - in my mind - serve to put possible strain on the marriage. Actually, reading the OP's posts, my sense is that this is something of a red line for the wife, as she may already have compromised on so much else.
Based on what You've said in this thread, you Mom has issues, and you'd better side with you wife no matter how sad your mom says she is. In a spouseal relationship, it's a serious, possibly marriage ending matter when the spouse consistently chooses their parent(s) over their partner. There are cases where Grandparents are handed parental duties such as babysitting for working parents on a regular basis, but the key word is handed. They don't get that responsibility by default. And if that frustrates your Mom, she must accept that.
I assume if you trust your Mom (I assume she lives locally) there will come a time when your toddler will be visiting her?
If it makes you feel any better, you are not alone. I've seen how one person in a family can be a destructive force. In my case, I have a psycho daughter in law, who has single handedly destroyed not only our ability to have decent relationships with our Grand kids, but her relationship with everyone in our family. Disclaimer- no parallel is intended regarding your wife. There is no set rule on who the problem child may be.
In our case, the daughter in law is bi-polar, insecure, and very self oriented. She has always been threatened by our presence when we infrequently visit them (out of state).
Look as someone with an overbearing mother, I appreciate your problem. I can even appreciate coming here to ask for advice, but none of us can tell you whether a specific action or amount of time 'sounds reasonable.' The fact is we have very little knowledge of the situation, and what little information we do have comes filtered through you. Those of us who are trained therapists should know better than to dispense professional advice in this medium, and those of us who aren't shouldn't be relied on too much. You clearly have a difficult situation, and I can empathize. However, if you want more specific reccomendations on what precise actions you should take (or precise ways to 'set boundaries' and 'be firm') then you really should talk to a therapist.
Okay, here it is: normal people remove negative influences from their lives. If your mother is causing you (or your wife) grief, then put your goddamn foot down and tell her to either straighten up or stay away. Period. It's not that hard.
My mother and I are cordial, but not close. I see her once a year or so, sometimes twice. We'll exchange a text or two once every few weeks or so. She's married to a guy I can't stand, and while she shows a passing interest in me she shows somewhat less interest in my wife or child. I don't need to kowtow to such a person, blood relative or not.
Only you can answer that.
For me personally, my mom would give my sister and I the guilt trip if we see her less than once a week.
If your wife says once every three or four weeks, then you should respect that and go along with her wishes (this seems like a reasonable request to me, and it is pretty close to how often we see both my parents and my in-laws). Over time as the baby gets older things may change and she may be willing to allow visits more often, or your mother may want to visit less often, etc. Let it work out over time, but like the others have said you should respect your wife's wishes, especially this soon after having the child.
Another thing that may help is to let your wife take that day and go do something by herself or with some of her friends, while you and your mother stay at home with the child. This way your mother gets to spend time with the child without your wife having to be around her. This may work out well enough that your wife would be willing to let your mother visit more often if she knows that she won't have to spend all that time with her. You should stay with your mother and child to make sure that she does not do anything that you or your wife would disapprove of.
Another thing that may help is to let your wife take that day and go do something by herself or with some of her friends, while you and your mother stay at home with the child. This way your mother gets to spend time with the child without your wife having to be around her. This may work out well enough that your wife would be willing to let your mother visit more often if she knows that she won't have to spend all that time with her. You should stay with your mother and child to make sure that she does not do anything that you or your wife would disapprove of.
Thank you for all the replies.
To clarify a couple things, since my wife was 13 years old she has wanted to be a stay at home mom. She could not be happier with anything involving me, the baby, our house, etc.
My mom just drives her crazy, and she doesn't want her around very much. And as I said, I can't say I don't understand why she feels the way she does. And she has made several attempts to connect with my mom, be friendly, strike up conversations, etc. After a while she gave up trying to enjoy spending time with her.
The fact that my mom has an unusually strong attachment to our baby, and has an inappropriate amount of influence over my feelings, make her all the more reluctant to have her around. This last problem will hopefully be solved after I undergo some therapy.
As of now my parents are not on the very short babysitting-approved list. But when our child is two or three I can imagine times where I could spend time with her and my mom while my wife does something else. Though she is first and foremost a mom, and I can't think of much she would rather do than be around her daughter.
To clarify a couple things, since my wife was 13 years old she has wanted to be a stay at home mom. She could not be happier with anything involving me, the baby, our house, etc.
My mom just drives her crazy, and she doesn't want her around very much. And as I said, I can't say I don't understand why she feels the way she does. And she has made several attempts to connect with my mom, be friendly, strike up conversations, etc. After a while she gave up trying to enjoy spending time with her.
The fact that my mom has an unusually strong attachment to our baby, and has an inappropriate amount of influence over my feelings, make her all the more reluctant to have her around. This last problem will hopefully be solved after I undergo some therapy.
As of now my parents are not on the very short babysitting-approved list. But when our child is two or three I can imagine times where I could spend time with her and my mom while my wife does something else. Though she is first and foremost a mom, and I can't think of much she would rather do than be around her daughter.
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