What the hell? Even when this was the popular opinion it wasn't actually true.
What the ****!? Good God!
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Thoughts on difficult family situation?
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Okay guys take it easy on him. I think everyone has pointed out some very valuable observations here worth considering, but let's not make him feel bad about this or pass judgement. Especially considering we're lacking details. Relationships are learning experiences and no two are ever quite the same.
This is really an archypical issue of men's bond with their mother and women's resentment to their motherly figures. Mothers tend to protect their children, especially sons. And scientifically speaking, as macho as men try to be, they usually are less capable and managing social issues and become more stressed out in the process. Stress promotes removing oneself from the situation, avoidance Generally the issue here is the wife feeling unsupported. Removing yourself from the conflict only hurts your wife more.
You married your wife and are the father of her child (may I ask which came first?). She expects commitment. Your mother is your mother- that will never change. She will always be there, regardless of her threats. Your wife on the other hand is not a permanent fixture. She can leave at any time.
Assuming you love her and want to be committed to her, I suggest in the meantime you listen to your wife and make her feel supported. And being committed to her should be considered independent of the fact you have a child with her. If you don't actually love her, you feel like you made a mistake, that's another issue.
Steve, I think it's important to remember you can't change your wife's behavior and you are even less likely to change your mother's. You can only change your behavior and your part in the relationship.
It would be easy for your wife to suck it up and put up with your mom. Or your mom to stop being so invasive. But the problem your wife is signaling to you is really NOT ABOUT YOUR MOTHER. It's about YOU and how your wife feels unsupported.
I suspect this issue is a sign much broader issues in play here than a simple chronic quarrel between wife and in law. I think your relationship with your wife is in question, and at the end of the day boils down to your own issues- doubts, insecurities, etc. These issues pop up all over if you look for them- look at your other relationships, past romances, experiences, etc. Have you lacked commitment in other aspects of your life?
I don't have the time to say much more, but the point I'm getting at all this stuff is connected. Commitment has a lot to do with self esteem. So does addictive/compulsive gambling.
This is really an archypical issue of men's bond with their mother and women's resentment to their motherly figures. Mothers tend to protect their children, especially sons. And scientifically speaking, as macho as men try to be, they usually are less capable and managing social issues and become more stressed out in the process. Stress promotes removing oneself from the situation, avoidance Generally the issue here is the wife feeling unsupported. Removing yourself from the conflict only hurts your wife more.
You married your wife and are the father of her child (may I ask which came first?). She expects commitment. Your mother is your mother- that will never change. She will always be there, regardless of her threats. Your wife on the other hand is not a permanent fixture. She can leave at any time.
Assuming you love her and want to be committed to her, I suggest in the meantime you listen to your wife and make her feel supported. And being committed to her should be considered independent of the fact you have a child with her. If you don't actually love her, you feel like you made a mistake, that's another issue.
Steve, I think it's important to remember you can't change your wife's behavior and you are even less likely to change your mother's. You can only change your behavior and your part in the relationship.
It would be easy for your wife to suck it up and put up with your mom. Or your mom to stop being so invasive. But the problem your wife is signaling to you is really NOT ABOUT YOUR MOTHER. It's about YOU and how your wife feels unsupported.
I suspect this issue is a sign much broader issues in play here than a simple chronic quarrel between wife and in law. I think your relationship with your wife is in question, and at the end of the day boils down to your own issues- doubts, insecurities, etc. These issues pop up all over if you look for them- look at your other relationships, past romances, experiences, etc. Have you lacked commitment in other aspects of your life?
I don't have the time to say much more, but the point I'm getting at all this stuff is connected. Commitment has a lot to do with self esteem. So does addictive/compulsive gambling.
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We had been doing better yesterday, but the minute we're in a better place again then I start to feel very anxious and like my wife is pushing my parents away and being unreasonable. Then I begin to talk to her about it and everything spirals backwards.
This morning for example, I started telling her how I'm frustrated that when we visited my parents house, that she was in a cold/bad mood most of the time, and that part of accepting that my parents are going to be part of our life to some degree, and agreeing to go on such a trip, is making an effort to be happy once we're there. She said "I really despise your mom, I get in a bad mood when she's around. Do you want me to pretend I'm happy?"
I have this feeling that it is reasonable to ask her to try to be happy when my mom is around or when we visit my family. Is it not? Is her being willing to go/have her visit at all good enough? This is a very contentious point right now, and I currently feel absolutely horrible because I just made things worse in my marriage again bringing this up for her. She said in a bitter voice "I'll just do whatever you want!" I pleaded with her to not disconnect like that and that I want to connect and communicate and work things out, not just have either of us resign to something that doesn't work, and end up killing the marriage.
What are everyone's thoughts about this issue? If she says "I'm okay with your mom visiting once a month" but is then unhappy while she's here, was that deceptive on her part? Passive aggressive? She says she can't help how she feels.
This morning for example, I started telling her how I'm frustrated that when we visited my parents house, that she was in a cold/bad mood most of the time, and that part of accepting that my parents are going to be part of our life to some degree, and agreeing to go on such a trip, is making an effort to be happy once we're there. She said "I really despise your mom, I get in a bad mood when she's around. Do you want me to pretend I'm happy?"
I have this feeling that it is reasonable to ask her to try to be happy when my mom is around or when we visit my family. Is it not? Is her being willing to go/have her visit at all good enough? This is a very contentious point right now, and I currently feel absolutely horrible because I just made things worse in my marriage again bringing this up for her. She said in a bitter voice "I'll just do whatever you want!" I pleaded with her to not disconnect like that and that I want to connect and communicate and work things out, not just have either of us resign to something that doesn't work, and end up killing the marriage.
What are everyone's thoughts about this issue? If she says "I'm okay with your mom visiting once a month" but is then unhappy while she's here, was that deceptive on her part? Passive aggressive? She says she can't help how she feels.
You're not going to get the professional help both you and your wife need - individually and as a couple - in an internet forum.
You can't force someone to be happy around someone else. My wife has a cousin who is a complete bitch all of the time, yet expects everyone to be nice and cordial to her. My wife knows I will never have anything to do with her and if I interact with her in any way it will be as flat and neutral as can be. And my wife, would never ask me to act any differently because she knows how I feel and respects that.
And honestly reading through this thread, I feel like I have just watched a man completely throw away his marriage for the sake of his mother.
It almost seems like there is a Oedipus type relationship between your mother and yourself and you need to get that sorted out, and from the way it sounds your marriage is turning (from what we can gather from only hearing one side,) you need to get that sorted out fast.
My advice, quit thinking about your mother and how she feels about anything pertaining to your marriage.
Is she being unreasonable?
Answer: No.
Of course she was in a 'cold, bad mood most of the time' while visiting your parents when you had made it abundantly clear by your behaviour that your relationship with your mother took priority over your relationship with your wife.
Moreover, you made it equally clear that you see her concerns as irrelevant, and - above all - inconvenient. By your conduct it is manifestly clear that you don't respect her concerns, wishes and feelings. Not only are your wife's concerns not taken into account when you deal with your mother, but it is also clear to her, that your wife is of so little worth that she is not even paid the brief respect of having been consulted before you chose to do something (such as hand Baby over to Granny).
And, why does she have to accept your parents?
And why should she have to pretend to be happy? She can't stand them.
With respect, I think you ask too much of your wife, and far too little of yourself.
Are you sure you have your priorities straight, here? Shouldn't your priority as a young husband, and a young father, instead be along the lines of supporting your wife, and setting (and enforcing) strict boundaries on your mother? Instead of prioritising your relationship with your mother, and undermining your wife by dismissing her feelings as of no concern - other than a massive inconvenience to you.
I suggest that you re-read that sentence.
Your wife's chief task is to be a good mother for her young child. It is not her job to be 'happy' around a woman she detests and despises, and I fail to see why you are asking this of her.
Your disloyalty to her, and your profound lack of support and understanding of her position, your inability to give stable support to the family unit you have created together, and your conflicted feelings are not in any way helping her to achieve that.
No, it is not reasonable. It is clear that you haven't taken in a single syllable of the advice that has been tendered in this thread so far. Instead, you are waiting for posts to tell you that this is not your problem, that it is your wife's, because she is unreasonable. That is what you want to hear.
What is 'reasonable' is to support your wife, and limit any sort of exposure to your mother. By asking her to be 'happy' you are actually making it clear that her feelings on the matter have absolutely no validity, or worth, or weight with you. You don't acknowledge them, accept, support them or respect them. And, in her mind, you neither support nor respect her, either.
"Deceptive"? "Passive aggressive?" Do you think your wife has the right to even express an emotion that you don't much like, because reading your post, I am beginning to think that you want a Stepford Wife, (even though that might prove 'deceptive' if it means suppressing, or masking, your true feelings).
Why do you expect your wife to echo faithfully your feelings about your mother?
And why shouldn't she be aggressive (nothing passive about it) when you have made it clear that not only will you not support her, but that you will do everything possible to frustrate her, and deny her feelings, and refuse to allow her to openly express them.
Indeed, by your response, you have made it abundantly clear that the only response you want from your wife is one where she meets your demands to 'be happy' around an emotional bully, whom she despises and detests.
Why did you bring it up again? Of course you should feel horrible (and, as always, this thread is all about you and your feelings, rather than the feelings of your wife who deserves and needs your support, instead of which you dismiss, and denigrate and undermine her concerns).
Once again, I will reiterate: The problem is not your wife's relationship with your mother. In fact, your wife is under no obligation whatsoever to be 'happy', (especially as she has made it perfectly clear that she despises your mother) or to admit your mother into her - or her child's life - and it is not 'reasonable' to expect this.
What is reasonable is for her to expect your unconditional support, which you are manifestly not giving her.
This is because the problem (although you insist on framing it as such) is not your wife's relationship with your mother. Rather, it is your relationship with your mother.
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OP.. there's two things:
1. There are issues and the people want to stay in issues because they actually get something from it.
2. There are issues and you want it resolved.
If it's #1.. good luck. If it's #2 it's a lot easier. Issues in relationships and communication a lot of the time occur when there isn't any personal growth happening and so no one has the tools to solve it. Maybe it's you, or you wife, or your mom or all three of you. There are some great communication courses out there. Weekend or week long courses. Things that get you out of your comfort zone and force everyone to grow - to see how you've been acting and communicating and how to grow beyond what you know. You can't solve the problem with same level of consciousness that created it.
1. There are issues and the people want to stay in issues because they actually get something from it.
2. There are issues and you want it resolved.
If it's #1.. good luck. If it's #2 it's a lot easier. Issues in relationships and communication a lot of the time occur when there isn't any personal growth happening and so no one has the tools to solve it. Maybe it's you, or you wife, or your mom or all three of you. There are some great communication courses out there. Weekend or week long courses. Things that get you out of your comfort zone and force everyone to grow - to see how you've been acting and communicating and how to grow beyond what you know. You can't solve the problem with same level of consciousness that created it.
It's not reasonable for your wife to love your mother or your mother to love your wife. A more reasonable expectation is tolerance, but sometimes that can not be achievable.
I'd suggest not talking badly about your mother. It will only fuel your wife's frustration and make her feel like your dishonest when you inevitably side with your mother over your wife.
Maybe it would be appropriate not to put your wife in situations where she has to be around your mother right now. Aka a visit to mom without your child. If your wife says no, then you might have to respect that to show you care. Relationships are not about words they're about actions. Maybe sacrifice your next scheduled visit with mom to show your wife she is being heard. Mom will be there next time.
Whatever your feeling about your wife are real, regardless of how you feel. You have to respect that, especially considering this is your wife.
This is a relationship issue and it's not like there is a single answer that will instantly "fix" this. No one can wave a magic wand or say a sentence or two like a spell to resolve this. It's going to take time, effort, commitment, an action, not just words.
I'd suggest not talking badly about your mother. It will only fuel your wife's frustration and make her feel like your dishonest when you inevitably side with your mother over your wife.
Maybe it would be appropriate not to put your wife in situations where she has to be around your mother right now. Aka a visit to mom without your child. If your wife says no, then you might have to respect that to show you care. Relationships are not about words they're about actions. Maybe sacrifice your next scheduled visit with mom to show your wife she is being heard. Mom will be there next time.
Whatever your feeling about your wife are real, regardless of how you feel. You have to respect that, especially considering this is your wife.
This is a relationship issue and it's not like there is a single answer that will instantly "fix" this. No one can wave a magic wand or say a sentence or two like a spell to resolve this. It's going to take time, effort, commitment, an action, not just words.
Lots of issues to work through on multiple levels and by by multiple people. There's no easy solution here, it's going to take hard work.
Well, today was finally her breaking point. After I again was bugging her about how she should make more of an effort to be in a good mood around my mom and get along with her, she decided we were done and said that she's leaving. She said seven months of feeling like I don't respect her or care about her feelings was more than enough, and that I better go call my mom and make sure she's ready to have me move back in with her, because I chose her over my wife.
I freaked out and pleaded with her over the course of two hours, with her giving me cold, snide remarks in return. I said that I can't lose her, and she said "You have lost me. It's over. That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's too late."
By the time I left for work (evening shift) I had convinced her to not go through with any ideas of leaving while I'm at work. I had also convinced her that this time, since she had threatened to leave, I am seriously going to get my act together and start putting her feelings first. Even having dubiously accepted that idea, she was still very upset about why it had to take her threatening to leave to finally get me serious about fixing this.
Anyways, on my way to work she texted me saying that we need to cut my mom out completely for six months, and that I need to learn how to give her the respect and compassion that I had been giving my mom for the past seven months. I replied that six months sounds good, and that I felt really good about the thought of being free of my mom for that long. I was on the phone with my uncle (my mom's brother) on my way to work as well, and he was supportive of the six-month ban idea, citing his observations of the way my mom raised me and my siblings.
My wife said she's still very hurt by the fact that it took a threat of divorce in order to get me to really care about this seriously. For months she had been telling me that she feels disrespected, ignored, her feelings dismissed, etc. She doesn't understand why I failed to listen to her or take her seriously for so long, and that it took a threat like that to really jar things properly.
Anyways, she feels greatly relieved now that the six month ban is in place. She says that after that time, and after I've gone through some therapy, she feels we'll be able to have an adult-to-adult conversation about my mom's visitation and what we each want and feel comfortable with.
Just now she was heading to bed and she gave me a hug and a kiss and said that she loves me and misses me. (Our sleep schedules are a bit divergent sometimes because of my work schedule and the baby).
Soooo.... it looks like things are going to work out, and I will save my marriage.
BUT.. What if..... she is manipulating me??? I know she probably isn't, but if that thought ever pops into my head, what should I do with it?
I freaked out and pleaded with her over the course of two hours, with her giving me cold, snide remarks in return. I said that I can't lose her, and she said "You have lost me. It's over. That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's too late."
By the time I left for work (evening shift) I had convinced her to not go through with any ideas of leaving while I'm at work. I had also convinced her that this time, since she had threatened to leave, I am seriously going to get my act together and start putting her feelings first. Even having dubiously accepted that idea, she was still very upset about why it had to take her threatening to leave to finally get me serious about fixing this.
Anyways, on my way to work she texted me saying that we need to cut my mom out completely for six months, and that I need to learn how to give her the respect and compassion that I had been giving my mom for the past seven months. I replied that six months sounds good, and that I felt really good about the thought of being free of my mom for that long. I was on the phone with my uncle (my mom's brother) on my way to work as well, and he was supportive of the six-month ban idea, citing his observations of the way my mom raised me and my siblings.
My wife said she's still very hurt by the fact that it took a threat of divorce in order to get me to really care about this seriously. For months she had been telling me that she feels disrespected, ignored, her feelings dismissed, etc. She doesn't understand why I failed to listen to her or take her seriously for so long, and that it took a threat like that to really jar things properly.
Anyways, she feels greatly relieved now that the six month ban is in place. She says that after that time, and after I've gone through some therapy, she feels we'll be able to have an adult-to-adult conversation about my mom's visitation and what we each want and feel comfortable with.
Just now she was heading to bed and she gave me a hug and a kiss and said that she loves me and misses me. (Our sleep schedules are a bit divergent sometimes because of my work schedule and the baby).
Soooo.... it looks like things are going to work out, and I will save my marriage.
BUT.. What if..... she is manipulating me??? I know she probably isn't, but if that thought ever pops into my head, what should I do with it?
Dismiss it. Bury it. Suppress it. Exactly the way you dismissed your wife's feelings for the past six to seven months.
Why is it that the only feeling you are capable of acknowledging is that you feel your wife might have been manipulating you? And why is the only feeling you have ever been prepared to accommodate is your mother's?
Again, and for this entire thread, you have made this about you. Rather than your wife.
While it is clear you have not heard a single solitary syllable of the excellent advice that has been given to you by almost everyone on this thread, it is equally clear that it has taken the threat of the nuclear option in a marriage - namely, your wife's threat to leave you - for you to even accept that she feels very strongly about this.
Seriously, I am not sure that you are even capable of being married.
You appear to be utterly, and completely, and entirely tone deaf to what your wife has been saying for months, and not only unable to hear it, but have been busy denying her the right to even articulate it, or say it because you don't want to hear it.
Just read your first sentence again - the one where you announced that you were 'bugging her' to make more of an effort "to be in more of a good mood around your mum".
Are you capable of accepting that she has the right to express emotions, or feelings, that you don't like? Is she permitted to express emotions that inconvenience you, or make your life uncomfortable? The 'final' argument was sparked by your complete inability and total reluctance to accept that she had the right to express an emotion (the fact that she cannot stand your mother) that inconveniences you.
Now: To answer your question: No, I don't think for one minute that she was manipulating you.
Rather, I think she had reached a red line where detonating the marriage was far preferable to a situation where she was willing to tolerate any further erosion of her self respect.
Re-read your own post, and then, re-read it again. She has made it clear that she feels that you do not respect her in the marriage. She has also made quite clear what needs to be done to retrieve the marriage, and that is that you show her respect. One form that this respect should take is to prioritise your wife's needs - and be seen to do so - over those of your mother.
Now that this has come up - and, make no mistake, this is a red line issue for her, and I find it astounding that you have been unable to accept and see that, or allow her to express it, it is not that she has hidden it, - you must respect the boundaries she has set.
This means that the price of saving your marriage is that you respect your wife's wishes - and be seen to respect your wife, and her stated wishes - on the role your mother is to play in your lives.
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This is the key as S pointed it out.
This type of complication in the micro-environment of life is not a novum.
When one decides to marry, it means a new stage in life and last but least new priorities in relations as well as responsibilities, especially when you become a parent.
(In classical psychology it is considered that one becomes an adult (in reality) when loses his/her parents).
I love this juxtaposition. You are bloody clueless. No, you didn't save your marriage. No, things aren't going to work out.
I hope your poor wife takes your child and runs for the hills.
Well, I think we all have said many times if you don't begin to start recognizing your wife's feelings she's not going to be happy. "Bugging her" to suck it up and act happy is not empathy. Minimizing feelings doesn't make anyone feel loved.
Manipulating you? She's your wife I would hope you know if she's just there to manipulate you at this point. Is she a sociopathic vixen whose only purpose is to ruin your relationship with your mom? Probably not.
Again, I think her response highlights again this is not a wife vs mom issue. It's a you vs wife issue.
Manipulating you? She's your wife I would hope you know if she's just there to manipulate you at this point. Is she a sociopathic vixen whose only purpose is to ruin your relationship with your mom? Probably not.
Again, I think her response highlights again this is not a wife vs mom issue. It's a you vs wife issue.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. But we are going to be cutting my mom out for six months, and things will be just fine. We went into the city today and had a great time at the market.
This is so bizarre, anyone writing out this whole family drama on an internet site which is focused on technology -- i.e., Apple computers and other products. Speaking of manipulation, actually I see some manipulativeness going on with regard to the OP, too.....
If I were the OP's wife I would not have tolerated the reported situation and would have already left, baby in arms, quite a while ago. Clearly the OP has "Mom issues" and those need to be resolved before there can be any meaningful, true relationship with anyone else.
If I were the OP's wife I would not have tolerated the reported situation and would have already left, baby in arms, quite a while ago. Clearly the OP has "Mom issues" and those need to be resolved before there can be any meaningful, true relationship with anyone else.
Whatever your mom's faults, don't blame her for your current behavior. You own it. Break the emotional umbilical chord with her. You have a 6 month separation plan; make it longer if necessary. Don't get into a he said, she said discussion with your mom about the turmoil induced separation, or your view of her. Tell her that you (yourself, not her) need to grow up and that you need to honor the contract you made with your wife, and by extension your child. Your mom will probably understand that, eventually. That's up to her.
Whether she is or not, how could you possibly know? You have all this crap going through your head, real and imagined, can't you see that she could too? Because of this clash, haven't you unsuccessfully tried to manipulate the situation for a "please let it stop" moment?
Live up to your contract with her. Part of that is continually developing your 'self' while allowing her to do the same. You can assist each other a little by words, but mostly by actions. The main source of growth will come from consistently applied introspection (whether you go to counseling or not) and seeking knowledge. Might have to do it daily at first. Looking for truth and working to be a 'good' human is a choice. Think of anything you're skilled at, whether it be work, hobby or sport. You might've been born with a natural ability at whatever that is. But, did it not take a choice on your part to work ever harder at improvement to approach or achieve excellence? You have the same choice here but for higher rewards. Don't expect immediate (but you might get it) feedback from your wife. Again, it's your actions, your behavior, that will be judged.
She married and declared her love for you for some reason; give her more reason. And by example, give your child a reason to thank you and love you for teaching her/him how a healthy, happy self can be had, and for teaching her/him to be independent.
Get to work. Good luck.
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This thread is absolutely beyond belief. I am sure this is a dream and that next time I log on here, there will not be a trace of this anywhere.
Execution stayed. This is far from over. Good luck to your wife.
Right now she is saying that my job is to convince her that she didn't make a mistake in marrying me. This is good. She's staying with me, making a commitment herself to feel close to me again, to feel completely happy with me. She's not saying "I'm done, I'm leaving." She's saying "help me feel confident in my choice of marrying you." My job does seem pretty clear cut now. Only one option = no anxiety.
There seems to me to be a vast difference of degree between convincing someone that they 'did not make a mistake in marrying' you, to persuading them that they are 'completely happy' with you.
The steps between the two positions are what you will have to navigate over the coming months.
And, quoting from your post: She's saying "help me feel confident in my choice of marrying you."
Well, that is the immediate task facing you. Make that your mantra. Indeed, when you next feel the urge to try to persuade your wife to 'be happy' around your mother, you might endeavour to recall this key sentence.
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Yes. Great. She's telling you what she wants (as she has been but whatever). Now listen to her and convince her. And I will reiterate, words mean nothing. Once you've betrayed your words they have no value. Only actions do.
I hope you're not wiping your hands and think everything is solved here because she's agreed to try and make things work. These things don't usually just fix themselves in a day. You will need to demonstrate continuous support and empathy. Make her feel heard and appreciated. There's nothing worse than someone sweeping your feelings under the rug and ignoring your thoughts.
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Based on other threads I'm assuming somewhere around 26.
My question, again, (Like DT not to be invasive but we've already made it to this point)... Which came first the marraige or the pregnancy?
Very good post, and your excellent point, that this will not be be readily resolved with sweet and soft words in a day are worth paying close heed to.
Actually, the prehistory - or backstory - is rather more nuanced than that. Some of the previous threads where he described this relationship at an earlier stage are - perhaps - worth taking a look at.
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