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applesith said:
I thought that was the worst place to work and employees are treated terribly. Why would anyone ever line up to apply for a job there? Based on the NY Times article, it sounded like people are forced to work there against their will.

China is going through the same transformations that Europe and and US have already survived. The young people are abandoning the rural farm life for cities and factory work.

Working conditions will only improve for the Chinese workers band together and demand better conditions.
 
Are human lives worth you having a white iPhone 4S? You tell me, then live with your conscience.

Over 300 employees at Foxconn threatened suicide because they feared losing their jobs when XBox production dropped. So what do you think would happen if nobody would buy an iPhone anymore? How can you _not_ buy an iPhone 4S? Tell me, then live with your conscience.


I think you mean that you will never buy any cell phone or computer ever again. Or any piece of thechnology, for that mater. Especially, considering that Apple is doing the same or more than other companies to address working conditions at the companies that contract with for manufacturing. I hope you don't buy any product made in China.

Look at the number of working hours for hospital interns in the USA. There are suggestions now that the number of hours should be limited to 80 hours, averaged over four weeks (what the NYT published was taken from Apple's report that a significant number of people worked over 60 hours _at least once in thirteen weeks_). Sorry, but if Apple was auditing US hospitals that are used by US Apple employees, then not a single hospital would pass.


The production of every product in history has cost lives. The question that has to be asked is whether the production of one product costs more misery than it should and more than the alternative would.

Stop eating fish. And don't use any wood products. Absolutely, absolutely certainly don't take drugs. (Fishing and forestry have quite high death rates. And drug dealing is probably one of the most dangerous jobs you could have, with one statistics claiming that survival rate among drug dealers was lower than survival rate of inmates on death row in Texas).
 
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Quote: A Bloomberg report from last week indicated that the city of Zhengzhou is working to help Foxconn add 100,000 workers to the facility this year, and a production boost in line with that workforce increase could see the factory yielding over 350,000 iPhones per day, or nearly 32 million per quarter.

If Apple keeps the other factories going full tilt, could this mean that Apple could sell 70 million iphones a quarter (last quarter's sales were 37 million). Is the demand there for that many phones? I suspect there is that much demand as there are many places and networks that either still don't have the iPhone or are just getting it. Since iPhones make up half of Apple's revenue, does this factory size increase mean that Apple could improve its revenue by 50% over the course of this year?

Scary.
 
Suicide rates

First, I would love China to enact some laws to improve the labor conditions over there. That being said, the teenage suicide rate in THIS country (US) is higher than the factory workers over there. I'm not debating working conditions, etc. But I'm tired of people looking at the suicide rate as their main argument. There are many groups of people here in the USA (and I'm sure elsewhere...sorry I know this is a global forum.) with much higher rates. If you are appalled by people jumping off buildings, instead of boycotting Apple, volunteer at a hotline.
 
Are human lives worth you having a white iPhone 4S? You tell me, then live with your conscience.

Are human lives worth sending the ill to a hospital in the USA, knowing that 100,000 people were killed in hospitals because of infectious diseases they caugut there or miss-deliver perscriptions? I bet this does't keep you away when you need one.

Knowing that drunk drivers kill over 20,000 people in the USA each year prevent you from driving after you've had a drink?
 
Are human lives worth you having a white iPhone 4S? You tell me, then live with your conscience.

Absolutely. My conscience is great with the fact that my purchase perhaps helped lower the suicide rate of these workers to below the national average, and gave them a far better working conditions and pay than their alternatives for other currently available jobs in their country.

Better to improve things, than to ignore them and let them stay as bad as they currently are.
 
If Apple were to intervene in what are quite clearly unnacceptable practices at one of their key suppliers, they could do something far more valuable to the wider community than any iproduct, and that is raise the bar in employment standards for an exploited and under-valued workforce.

But then you also have to address the actual materials they use. I can't remember which material but one universal to all computers is attributed to a lot of bloodshed in Africa I believe (Unfortunately it was an article I read a few months back and I have no idea on how to find it again). Something similar to why the diamond trade causes evil (but with another material).

But it's cheaper to get that material there than anywhere else (and the demand for it causes a lot of killing each other to provide it).

Point being that you really would have to be the Unabomber (in how he lived) if you want to truly avoid all products that cause evil somewhere. Not that we shouldn't strive to be better. But also, be realistic, at this point in time, it's almost unavoidable except to live a lifestyle you are not going to convince enough people to live to actually make a difference to convince companies to do better.

One compromise people could strive to do is to use less. Consume less. Use stuff until they really are not useful (vs. throwing it away cause it's not the newest thing). And I'll admit that's still a lot to ask of people (Specially us tech junkies who like having new gadgets ;) ).
 
China is going through the same transformations that Europe and and US have already survived. The young people are abandoning the rural farm life for cities and factory work.

Working conditions will only improve for the Chinese workers band together and demand better conditions.

Precisely. Welcome to the Industrial Revolution.
 
I know most apple fans will do almost everything to protect whatever comes out of the apple brand.
Just face that for example samsung and nokia have major plants in their homelands and suceed to beat apple when it comes to quality.
For example my nokia n9 is made in Finland and has superior quality compared to iphone. Samsung make big profits without sending their production to china.

it is possible to stay in america, apple just want to maximise their profit.

Sad but true story, especially with the current economy.
 
Are human lives worth you having a white iPhone 4S? You tell me, then live with your conscience.

Most people on this forum are doing exactly that. I sleep fine at night... and I don't consider myself a bad person and neither do my friends and family.
 
It's because it's one of only a few products that supply cannot meet demand with and Apple makes LUXURY items - no matter how you spin it, we can all live without iWhatevers.

Are human lives worth you having a white iPhone 4S? You tell me, then live with your conscience.

So you don't have any Apple products, right?

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What's the purpose of this article exactly?

Oh, I know, to make it seem like it's "not that bad" at Foxconn.

Classy.

That's because it's not that bad.

----------

- Don't like working conditions in China? Stop buying Apple. And pretty much everything else...

- Everyone else? Move to China. Say hi to the brown smog cloud for me.

I think you forgot the other option -- just buy Apple stuff and support the factory that all these people want to work for. It's a win-win. Booyah.
 
I know most apple fans will do almost everything to protect whatever comes out of the apple brand.
Just face that for example samsung and nokia have major plants in their homelands and suceed to beat apple when it comes to quality.
For example my nokia n9 is made in Finland and has superior quality compared to iphone. Samsung make big profits without sending their production to china.

it is possible to stay in america, apple just want to maximise their profit.

Sad but true story, especially with the current economy.

Honest question: in what way is your Nokia "better quality"?
 
The saddest thing about this is the posts by people here who have NO CLUE about anything at Foxconn whatsoever, and only spew the liberal talking points.

I've been there. Seen the working conditions. Spoken with employees.

It's nothing like the bleeding heart hypocrites who send in their articles and commentary would have you believe.

Nothing.

Get over it.

China is a manufacturing giant, with conditions that are not only good for workers today, but are improving all the time.

You want to build product in the US again? You could learn something from a visit to China.

Don't take this wrong, I am not flaming you. Since you have been to Foxxconn and have seen first hand the working conditions, I would like to know more of what you experienced. thanks!
 
There was a time . . . . .

when scenes like this were commonplace in the Western World. Back in the old days when countries like America and England had booming industrialization the conditions were no better, and probably much much worse that those at Foxconn. People still lined up to get a job because that was the kind of skill level you needed. You were not paid to go to college to learn your job, you learned it on the job as an apprentice.

There is a reason trade unions existed, and it was not just to get Free Viagra on the healthcare plans. It was because working conditions in industry were, and still are, tough.

Sure, we have moved on slightly from those days, but do not ever be fooled in to thinking that the Foxconn "conditions" as we shall call them, and depending on who you ask, do not exist in the United States and Europe, or elsewhere in the world. Life is often tough in the field of manufacturing and heavy industry, and mining.

Many many years ago, before I started my PhD, I worked at a company called Metal Box in Sutton-in-Ashfield near nottingham. To get the job I went to the factory and asked for a job. I then went to work in the morning for the day shift and evening for the night shift, stood at a machine stamping metal shapes out of huge sheets of printed steel that would soon become cookie tins and pill boxes, and pencil cases and so on. I stood there keeping my fingers away from the press until the 15 minute tea break was called and then I went back and stood there until "lunch." I remember getting a promotion to the machine that made hinges because I then got a seat. I also remember getting cuts from sharp edges a couple of times and the foreman (actually forewoman) yelling at me when I did not use the machine just right and the tool setter had to come out and re-align it. There is nothing quite like doing this kind of job and working night shifts to give you an appreciation for the fluffy life that many of us have now (and still complain about).

However, we have to remember that someone still needs to make stuff under these conditions to fill the gap left as we educate ourselves to better jobs. When I have had a bad day in my current job I think back to what my life could have been like if I were still working that job; particularly as they built a shopping center on the site where the factory used to be. Hmmm, isn't there a Kinks song along those lines?

If you want to think about another tough job with some of the hardest conditions, consider the role of migrant farm workers. Man, you got hand it to those men and women who move from farm to farm picking the things we stuff in our faces.
 
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I know most apple fans will do almost everything to protect whatever comes out of the apple brand.
Just face that for example samsung and nokia have major plants in their homelands and suceed to beat apple when it comes to quality.
For example my nokia n9 is made in Finland and has superior quality compared to iphone. Samsung make big profits without sending their production to china.

it is possible to stay in america, apple just want to maximise their profit.

Sad but true story, especially with the current economy.

Nokia is also a Foxconn client. You really cannot buy anything not made by Foxconn or one of it's competitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers
 
voluntary leadership

I just don't think human dignity, or personal safety / environmental responsibility are mutually exclusive to a competitive, highly successful, profit based company. Its possible to have both, and the most successful companies should set the example. Not wait to be charged, criminally. And yea, how they treat their employees does matter. Whether they are Chinese, American or any other nationality. They are people.
Apple, being the most successful of these companies should lead the way TO human dignity, less pollution, not just "do what all those other companies do" as some sort of justification.
 
Hey Apple, How about you open factories in the US? And hire 100,000 Americans?

Hmmm...

Because no one here wants to solder the same joint 5000 times in a day. And the only way to get them to do it would be to pay them a ridiculous wage that was unrelated to the skill required. And it's not just an issue of workers. Chinese factories can re-tool and reconfigure on a dime. The capabilities Apple needs do not exist in the US nor will they ever. When will you people wake up and stop beating your useless drums? Unskilled, factory jobs are gone from the US forever. The only way low end manufacturing is coming back is if it is done by robots. But hey, they would be American robots (but probably made in China).
 
I think Apple and the U.S. of A. should put together a work for welfare program. Especially for the Welfare families several generations in. You want to be on welfare? Great! Now assemble these iphones. Industry moves back into the country, and people are doing things to earn the money that the working americans are giving them. Problem solved.


There. I said it.
 
The iPad is the perfect device to read about Foxconn and the people that feel better ptetending they can.
 
Are you making the LUDICROUS argument that people outside of China have the pick of any job they want that interests them? Even in the USA one could safely say that just about everyone wishes they had a better, easier job. That is, unless you seriously believe all those people bringing you food in restaurants, mowing your lawns, taking your inane customer service calls, stocking your shelves, and driving your goods around just plain love it.

Really? No seriously, really? Never thought anyone would have the audacity to even say that working at a "undesirable" job in the USA would be comparable to working at Foxconn, where people commit suicide and the company fails to acknowledge it until the world finds out and they put a safely net around parts of the building as their response.
Being a server in a restaurant, working at Walmart, working as a janitor may not be desirable jobs in North America. But that's not the point. The point is the despicable working conditions that leads people to commit suicide regularly at Foxconn.
 
Really? No seriously, really? Never thought anyone would have the audacity to even say that working at a "undesirable" job in the USA would be comparable to working at Foxconn, where people commit suicide and the company fails to acknowledge it until the world finds out and they put a safely net around parts of the building as their response.
Being a server in a restaurant, working at Walmart, working as a janitor may not be desirable jobs in North America. But that's not the point. The point is the despicable working conditions that leads people to commit suicide regularly at Foxconn.

The suicide rate at Foxconn, with 1 million workers, is lower than the national rate
 
The point is the despicable working conditions that leads people to commit suicide regularly at Foxconn.

Question, what are these conditions that lead people to commit suicide? Do the reports ever say (or just point out the high suicide rate)? Just asking cause I've only heard about the reports but never read the news stories, just hear people talking about it (and no one ever mentions specifics, they just stay vague like you.. despicable conditions that lead people to commit suicide... ok, what conditions though? I'd like to know what the conditions actually are rather than just a vague description).

Do they actually mention what the conditions are or do they just point out that it must be horrid due to high suicide rates? And if the latter, how do they know there's not something else going on (could be a cultural different in viewpoint for example)?

I'm not trying to outright refute the reports, I just think sometimes you can't take news media at face value. They have agendas (if nothing else to get views to attract advertising and finding shocking stories do that) and even if they are truthful it is easy to leave out facts/pieces of quote/stuff that doesn't support their agenda.
 
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