Thunderbolt 3 and USB Converge With New 40 Gbps USB4 Specification

[theluggage]

But no, TB 3 will not be compatible with USB 4. Different chipsets.

That would be a monumentally stupid and unlikely state of affairs. Intel announced they were going to open up the (currently proprieary) TB3 standard. Helping the USB consortium produce a competing but incompatible standard with the same connectors wouldn’t even be in Intels interest.

Unless the current announcements are way off-base, what they are saying is that USB 4 will be Thunderbolt 3 in almost all but name, and that other manufacturers (like AMD, manufacturers of ARM chips and the various companies already offering USB-x chipsets) will be able to make compatible chipsets.
[doublepost=1551738443][/doublepost]

USB-A to mini and micro USB-B cables, AFAIK, were never power-only, so why would a standard designed to be physically simpler introduce further complexity?

USB-C cables capable of 80-100W have to carry 5 Amps @ 20V - which means thicker wires. Leaving out the 4 pairs of high-speed data wires for USB 3/Thunderbolt probably makes the cable thinner/more flexible and cheaper - and most data cables simply don’t need to carry 100W.

The fallacy is that USB-C makes things simpler - the reality is that combining multiple, disparate functions into a single connector makes things more complex. The whole idea is driven by the growth of the phone/mobile market which wants to have everything in a single port to save space.

 

[thingstoponder]

got to keep the market moving and selling those externals....

one port, one standard, be done with it.

What do you think this news is?

 

[raghu8912]

Watch Apple will get confused and come out with another cable standard again.

Lightning connector is the only Apple proprietary connector now.
Apple was using Thunderbolt because it has after data transfer speeds compared to USB-C.
Competition is better for Customers.
[doublepost=1551743319][/doublepost]

can we just merge it and go one thing?

Then USB will not have any competition and they will sit on their ars for years with out advancing the performance.
if Intel didn't release thunderbolt & Apple didn't use them in MBP then I am sure USB would still be struck with USB 3.0.
[doublepost=1551743390][/doublepost]

No worries. Many on this forum just want good ol' USB-A on thick laptops.

I want VGA port on my laptop, I still use monitor with VGA port, its working fine, don't have any plans to upgrade.
[doublepost=1551743617][/doublepost]

Excellent, unless Apple's response is to introduce Lightning 2, to "enhance the user's experience".

If Apple didn't use Thunderbolt in MBP, USB would have still struck with ultrafast USB 3.0.

 

[4487549]

No... not four; I said three. No one's coming up with four. Three little chipmunks twirling on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' of gorgonzola when it's clearly bree time baby. Step into my office... cuz you're ****in' fired!

 

[MadDawg2020]

can we just merge it and go one thing?

$ - is the only reason why it has not happened.

 

[nordique]

To confuse matters even more,

This is NOT the same as USB 4.0

Who comes up with these names at the USB IF?

 

[KPandian1]

The port itself is USB C--already compatible.

For all the bitching about dongles, the MBP port situation is the most versatile.

If the MBP looked like this from the 2016 edition, yes. 2.5 years gone since the change and USB-C is still hurting the users and Apple.

(All of us can't be @AngerDanger)

 

[Stephen.R]

If the MBP looked like this from the 2016 edition, yes.

Versatile doesn't necessarily mean "includes the most single-use ports".

That laptop doesn't include DVI or VGA or ExpressCard or DisplayPort, or CF card or Memory Stick or eSATA or Fibre Channel or Ethernet or Firewire. So, should they bundle all those things in there too?

OR. Go with me here. Should they pick something that extends a PCI bus outside the computer, and allows you to use that for whatever I/O needs you have?

If we stop being hypothetical and talk in real terms: the 2016 model is crap from my point of view - I've literally never used or wanted or needed an SDXC slot or any other type of memory card slot, and I think I used HDMI out (via a TB1 adapter, no less) from my laptop... twice, in hotel rooms, in... 8 years? I've pretty much always had numerous external storage devices - and while USB3 would have been fast enough for most purposes when I bought my previous MBP (in 2011) these days USB3 simply isn't fast enough for my work needs.

This is the thing that "I want different ports" people never acknowledge - it is physically impossible to satisfy what everyone wants, but so long as they get their special port, **** everyone else.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Versatile doesn't necessarily mean "includes the most single-use ports".

That laptop doesn't include DVI or VGA or ExpressCard or DisplayPort, or CF card or Memory Stick or eSATA or Fibre Channel or Ethernet or Firewire. So, should they bundle all those things in there too?

OR. Go with me here. Should they pick something that extends a PCI bus outside the computer, and allows you to use that for whatever I/O needs you have?

If we stop being hypothetical and talk in real terms: the 2016 model is crap from my point of view - I've literally never used or wanted or needed an SDXC slot or any other type of memory card slot, and I think I used HDMI out (via a TB1 adapter, no less) from my laptop... twice, in hotel rooms, in... 8 years? I've pretty much always had numerous external storage devices - and while USB3 would have been fast enough for most purposes when I bought my previous MBP (in 2011) these days USB3 simply isn't fast enough for my work needs.

This is the thing that "I want different ports" people never acknowledge - it is physically impossible to satisfy what everyone wants, but so long as they get their special port, **** everyone else.

The OP meant to say 2015 model, but yeah dead on re: TB3. There are also a fair amount of corporate MBP users who take their computer back and forth between home and work; having only one cable to plug in is really nice.

 

[handheldgames]

...enables thunderbolt 3 / usb4 on an Arm based macOs platform.

 

[tevion5]

I know that's kinda of a running joke but I can still connect over Thunderbolt to Firewire 400...At the end of the day, I can still connect to everything I've always connected to.

I joke but I've still got an original Firewire iSight camera hooked up to my Apple Cinema Display, hooked up to my 2011 MBP as part of my main workstation.

 

[theluggage]

So reading this there’s no difference to thunderbolt 3? Will thunderbolt 3 ports on Macs be compatible with usb4?

The port itself is USB C--already compatible. But no, TB 3 will not be compatible with USB 4. Different chipsets.

Just to put this one to bed:

From https://usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-02/USB_PG_USB4_DevUpdate_Announcement_FINAL_20190226.pdf

"compatibility with existing USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3 hosts and devices is supported;"
​

Of course, this is still in the vapourware stage, so "if"s and "but"s may well emerge when the devil turns up with the details. For the moment, though, it sounds as if "USB4" is, for most practical purposes, going to be a re-badging of Thunderbolt 3 (presumably with added USB 3.2 x2 - although with no 3.2x2 devices on the market yet, this announcement could be a nail in the coffin for that).

 

[Stephen.R]

I wondered if this was some weird USB-PG vs USB-IF thing (given how recently USB3.2 was spruiked by USB-IF, but the release announcement mentions both USB-IF and USB-PG, but also includes this little piece that maybe explains the timing (emphasis mine):

USB4 architecture is based on the ThunderboltTM protocol specification recently contributed by Intel Corporation.

Maybe just maybe someone at Intel realised that USB3.2 XYZ+Sprinkles is a ****ing terrible name and said "hey lets just use Thunderbolt and be done with it"

 

[theluggage]

hat laptop doesn't include DVI or VGA or ExpressCard or DisplayPort, or CF card or Memory Stick or eSATA or Fibre Channel or Ethernet or Firewire. So, should they bundle all those things in there too?

Would you like to add IEE-488, MIDI and 20mA current loop and a Shugart floppy disc interface to that list? I believe some straw men still use those every day and think that they should be built into every laptop as standard. As opposed to, say, USB A and HDMI which are still turning up in brand new consumer products (*cough* https://www.apple.com/iphone-xs/specs/)...

If we stop being hypothetical and talk in real terms:

In "real terms", nobody is suggesting that the MBP shouldn't have TB3/USB-C ports. The complaint is that it only had TB3/USB-C ports - and only 4 (or worse, 2 on the non-touchbar models) at that. Look at the images in the post you were responding to: its a 2015 MBP with 2 TB3 ports in place of the TB2 ports. That's what all the sensible posts are asking for - and its also what Apple have done with the 2017 iMac, iMac Pro and the 2018 Mini so its obviously not that stupid an idea.

I've literally never used or wanted or needed an SDXC slot or any other type of memory card slot, and I think I used HDMI out (via a TB1 adapter, no less) from my laptop... twice, in hotel rooms, in... 8 years?

Guess what - lots of people don't need 40 Gbps of i/o on a laptop and have never thought twice about plugging 2-3 cables in to 'dock' at their desk (when having a single cable might shave a whole second off that)... but maybe - just maybe - different people have different needs and priorities, and a laptop designed by a company with only 2 designs of "pro" laptop might need to represent some sort of compromise?

having only one cable to plug in is really nice.

Repeat - nobody is proposing that Macs shouldn't include TB3/USB-C ports.

 

[jimothyGator]

As opposed to, say, USB A and HDMI which are still turning up in brand new consumer products (*cough* https://www.apple.com/iphone-xs/specs/)...

The iPhone XS includes neither a USB A nor an HDMI port, so that's a strange example. I get it; iPhones come with a USB A to Lightning cable and not a USB C to Lightning cable, but either way, you're using a cable to connect an iPhone to a computer. You may need to buy an additional cable (until Apple starts including a USB C cable and charger, giving people something new to complain about), but you don't need to carry an additional cable.

The sooner USB A, B, micro USB, and mini USB disappear, the better if you ask me. The more manufactures say "death to legacy ports," the sooner that will happen. In the meantime, there are compact and affordable USB C hubs that have virtually whatever combination of USB A, micro SD, HDMI, Ethernet, etc. ports you need in a single device. Yeah, it's one extra thing to buy and carry, but it's really not a big deal as an intermediate step.

 

[MacBH928]

I know the Thunderbolt technology is amazing, but I never heard someone use it in the PC world. Its only featured on Macs like Firewire, which again I say, hardly heard or saw people use it.

 

[theluggage]

Who comes up with these names at the USB IF?

Not clear whether "USB 4.0" is actually a thing yet - Googling for "USB 4.0" just shows a bunch of news sources that are citing the "USB4" announcement.

This document appears to be the official source and just talks about "USB4" (no space) Some committee clearly deliberated long into the night about that - my guess would be something technical about trademark law - its interesting that the document cites USB-C and USB-type-C as trademarks, but not "USB" itself.

According to this document there's going to be an updated USB-type-C specification too, so the not-even-wrong "USB-C is just a connector" thing won't be going away (a distinction without a difference for a smart connector that can't work without its own set of protocols - a 3.5mm jack, OTOH, is 'just a connector') Oh joy...

 

[KPOM]

I know the Thunderbolt technology is amazing, but I never heard someone use it in the PC world. Its only featured on Macs like Firewire, which again I say, hardly heard or saw people use it.

My work PC (HP) has a Thunderbolt port and we are gradually replacing the old HP docking stations with Thunderbolt docks.

 

[theluggage]

but you don't need to carry an additional cable.

If you want to be able to connect to a Mac and still be able to use the USB-A charger supplied with the iPhone, or the USB-A charge sockets in hotel rooms (or, any of the drawer-full of USB-A power supplies that you already have) then, yes you do. Its really an admission by Apple that the USB-A cable is the most useful one to have and has become a de-facto standard for DC power supplies.

Its only featured on Macs like Firewire, which again I say, hardly heard or saw people use it.

Firewire did have a 'niche' market as the standard interface for digital video cameras - that's the only reason I've ever used it on a PC. Maybe also as a high-end audio interface.

It really comes down to Apple's focus on thin laptops and small-form-factor systems: at least until recently, the vast bulk of PCs were desktop systems with PCIe (or its predecessors) and at least some internal expansion. If you wanted more storage and USB wasn't fast enough, you fitted it internally or plugged in an eSATA/SCSI/Fibrechannel/whatever interface (or, today, add a M.2 NVMe SSD).

The availability of fast I/O has been something of a selling point for Mac laptops (apart from the doldrums when FW800 was no longer hot and Macs hadn't got USB3) - but more recently its becoming a forced solution to the lack of credible "pro" desktops.

I "commuted" with a laptop for a long time, but mainly because, at a push, the laptop alone did everything I needed and the large displays etc. on the desk were just a convenience. If I found myself needing two 5k displays, a super-fast RAID array and an eGPU hooked up to my laptop to do my job I'd start asking whether there was anything useful I could do with the bare laptop and if a desktop system wouldn't make more sense (esp. today when there are phones for email, tablets capable of anything up to light in-the-field video editing and pervasive internet/cloud services for syncing files between locations).

 

[jimothyGator]

If you want to be able to connect to a Mac and still be able to use the USB-A charger supplied with the iPhone, or the USB-A charge sockets in hotel rooms (or, any of the drawer-full of USB-A power supplies that you already have) then, yes you do. Its really an admission by Apple that the USB-A cable is the most useful one to have and has become a de-facto standard for DC power supplies.

There will probably be people and hotels with USB A chargers and cords for the next decade or longer. Likewise, as others have pointed out, there are still offices with VGA projectors. This doesn't mean that MacBooks should still include VGA ports, so why does it follow that they should still include USB A ports? At some point, ports will be dropped, even USB A. When's the right time? Now? Next year? Five years? Twenty years?

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg. I've got tons of devices that charge with micro USB (even things that don't connect to a computer, such as rechargeable headlamps). Companies continue to release new devices that charge with micro USB. Perhaps irrationally, but I absolutely despise micro USB. For crying out loud manufactures, it's 2019, use USB C! But they probably reason, as you do, that people have tons of USB A-to-micro USB cords around, so they come out with new products that still use micro USB.

There are some things Apple does lately that boggle my mind, but I honest admire their "courage" to switch almost exclusively to USB C, and wish others would do the same. If I were to have one complaint, it would be that they haven't done this enough; as we both pointed out, they continue to include USB A chargers and cords, not to mention the Lightning connector itself.

Customers, Apple, and other companies should bite the bullet and switch exclusively to USB C. Let the morass of other connectors die. The sooner the better. During the transition, you've got adapters, but it's really not a big deal, and the more readily people embrace USB C, the less need there will be for adapters.

 

[jdiamond]

And since USB 4 will mandate the 40Gbps and Thunderbolt 3, it means there is certain quality assurance to USB 4 cable.

This finally explains why the USB consortium came up with the bizarre idea to call all prior versions of USB "USB 3.2" - because what they really mean is "if it says USB 3.2, don't buy it!"

 

[Stephen.R]

As opposed to, say, USB A and HDMI which are still turning up in brand new consumer products

So?

DisplayPort still turns up in new devices, so does Ethernet and optical audio and card readers, some even have ****ing optical and floppy drives still.

All of which do essentially one thing, and if you have no use for that one thing, well tough luck.

The only one that’s “adaptable” is USB-A and all the moaning about card readers and hdmi and vga and what not would clearly not be silenced by USB-A ports.

At least with tb3 ports you have the option to run all those things, all at once, with relatively cheap adapters in most cases.

and only 4

This much I agree with. I can make 4 work because they can do multiple things (eg run an eGPU and provide power back on one port) but 6 would be a better setup.

That's what all the sensible posts are asking for

And I already said even the example given is a **** deal IMO: A dedicated port for hdmi in a laptop makes zero sense for most people - or do you think it’s better that the guy using cheap ass vga projectors at offices uses a hdmi to vga adapter rather than a USB-c to vga adapter? And a card reader? Who is using so many cards they want a built in trader (as opposed to just plugging the camera in like practically everyone does) but also happens to use the format chosen by apple?

its also what Apple have done with the 2017 iMac, iMac Pro and the 2018 Mini

Since when do any of those include card readers? What iMac supports HDMI?

One has hdmi and they all have type-a ports. So let me ask again, how many of the complaints about lack of ports would be satisfied by just adding USB-A? How many need to be added, and how many TB3 ports are lost in the process? Forcing actual professionals to use USB-3 for storage or Ethernet or whatever because the machine has fewer tb3 ports and they’re chewed up for video out in alt mode so that some guy with a USB printer can plug it in without a hub or new cable is the sort of **** that will cause more of the “apple is abandoning professionals” claims.

 

[Bustycat]

If the MBP looked like this from the 2016 edition, yes. 2.5 years gone since the change and USB-C is still hurting the users and Apple.

(All of us can't be @AngerDanger)

View attachment 824683

Apple’s decision on keeping bundling the USB-A to Lightning cable with iPhones and iPads hurts users, not USB-C.

 

[deconstruct60]

Just to put this one to bed:

From https://usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-02/USB_PG_USB4_DevUpdate_Announcement_FINAL_20190226.pdf

"compatibility with existing USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3 hosts and devices is supported;"
​

Of course, this is still in the vapourware stage,

It isn't really vapourware. In terms of shippable hardware maybe that is fair, but in terms of a standard if it queued up for passage in the next 6-10 months, it basically exists now. It has bugs and things to clean up, but the notion or implication that it is close to just being talk is more than bit of over the top. (this is closer to a book being finished by the author and being checked for typos , spelling errors, relatively minor revisions on clarity. The characters, the plot , the story is basically done. ). There is a difference between a standard being basically finished and a standard being formally approved by a vote. The fundamental fact is have to finish before folks can check the standard and then vote.

Most standards committees don't set up a call for a vote to pass until they have already taken a "straw poll" where have a general consensus that the standard is basically complete. If a significant majority of the committee members were still mostly in disagreement over the feature set then they wouldn't have announced a vote. To pass standard that is governed by a relatively large committee you have to get a group of folks with competing agendas to agree. That is grossly different process from shipping a hardware (or software) product out of a single company.

although with no 3.2x2 devices on the market yet, this announcement could be a nail in the coffin for that).

There have been no physically complete controllers until now. Part of the issue is where is the huge demand pulling this to come faster. 3.2 still isn't as fast as Thunderbolt v3. It is faster, but what needs faster. USB keyboards and mice. No. Single HDDs? No. Thumb Flash Drives? Largely no. SATA SSD? No.


a PCI-e SSD have far higher affinity for a Thunderbolt v3 which can natively encode and transport the PCI-e back to the system. Pushing into USB protocol is actually a hinderance for a native PCI-e device.

USB 3.2 is useful. It just probably isn't useful for 100's millions of folks who are highly impatient to drive very rapid adoption.

USB4 is probably in the same boat as probably 2-3 years past passage until see controllers hit the market in high volume and highly validated broad interoperability among the implementations. That gives 3.2 a 2-3 window to get traction. And frankly 3.2 devices will be compatibly with USB4 for sales will continue well past when USB4 starts shipping.

 

[0924487]

can we just merge it and go one thing?

The problem is who owns and who pays