Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[KPOM]

Could someone explain what this means, please?

To the average consumer nothing. If you need to run an external GPU or RAID server on your 13" Pro plug it into one of the ports on the left.

 

[blackcrayon]

One side can do it, the other side can't. It's the stupidest thing I've heard this week in tech news.

No offense, but only if it's a stupid person (stupid is the wrong word, but let's say "underinformed") observing.
Was it stupid when the 6 Thunderbolt ports on the Mac Pro shared 3 Thunderbolt buses?

Ironically, the little 13" MacBook Pro has an incredibly adequate amount of i/o for a laptop even just counting the two "slow" ports! They're actually overkill for almost anything except a huge high bandwidth RAID Array or connecting an external video card. But of course, there are 2 other ultra fast ports on the other side...

 

[AxiomaticRubric]

Bet that they knew it long time ago during design stage.

In that case they should make those two slower ports just an USB3 ports - that would make everyone happy.

I agree. This is no different than the original MacBook Air release. It's a brand new hardware platform that will be improved over time. They are counting on fans to jump on this initial half-baked iteration right away. True professionals are better off waiting, staying with the last generation MacBook Pro for now, or purchasing a PC that can meet their needs.

 

[maflynn]

To the average consumer nothing.

Are you sure? I can imagine that they might be confused as to why their TB devices are running slower on one side then the other.

I'm not really sure why apple did this, seems kind of silly to me.

 

[KPOM]

Wow, gone are the days where Steve Jobs would take out a jewelers loupe and examine each pixel placement, now they're cutting corners and raising the price. Kind of sad if you think about it.

Is this the Apple, I want to send my limited funds too for a computer?

That seems a bit dramatic. More likely the thermal package of the 13" doesn't allow four ports to run at full tilt. Remember Steve Jobs put out a MacBook Pro in 2010 with Thunderbolt but only USB 2.0 because he didn't want to use a third party chip.

 

[mtsmike]

There is something really not right about this company. I'm a desktop user and switched to mac about 12 years ago. I use to love watching what new updates Apple came out with at their events. It use to get me excited and wanting to buy. This is no longer the case for me. Sold my mac pro about 4 months ago and moved back to a Window's PC because I was sick of Apple's neglect to the mac pro and their display line. Wanted to take a break from Apple. I do not regret doing this and this latest Apple event just confirmed my feelings even more. Every event for me lately has been disappointment after disappointment. This last event, Apple should have talked about upcoming desktop products, even if not ready to launch. Throw the costumers a bone once in a while. Apple clearly is no longer a pro user company and has no desire to be in the pro business and looks like they do not want to be in the desktop business either. Say what you will about Window's, but at least on the PC side, when new tech comes out, I can purchase it the next day and start using it. Really sad as I really like Apple's OS better than windows. Bottom line, I don't like the direction Apple is going with their desktop computers, so I wont be buying anymore Apple desktop computers. Hopefully I'm wrong and Apple puts out some amazing stuff next year.

 

[FreshBoy]

Look there's two full powered Tb3 ports that offer more speed than 90% of users will ever need maybe more but who cares. The bitchers and moaners represent 1% of Apple customers probably less but as I said who cares. Thunderbolt 3 and USB C is the future and that's that. It applies to both Apple and Microsoft...two companies dedicated to pushing the boundaries. In my opinion apples software is better and that's why I stick with them. Yeah they piss me off at times but I still crawl back into bed with them at night. FreshBoy out!

 

[KPOM]

Are you sure? I can imagine that they might be confused as to why their TB devices are running slower on one side then the other.

I'm not really sure why apple did this, seems kind of silly to me.

Probably because Skylake Alpine Ridge supports 2 Thunderbolt ports natively and adding support for more requires a second chipset. My guess is the thermal package of the 13" doesn't support four ports running at full tilt. Those who need full bandwidth will likely know to read the technical document. And I'm guessing the ports on the right go up to 20gbps. External hard drives are mostly USB 3.1, and really how inconvenient is it to plug a TB3 hard drive into the left instead of the right? Apple could have done what other PC makers do and ship devices with a mix of TB3 and USB-C 3.1 ports but took the extra step of adding TB3 to all 4.

 

[Cartossin]

The amount of unwarranted hate here is really annoying.

From a post I made on reddit:

As is widely reported, the 13" Macbook Pro has less Thunderbolt3 bandwidth on the right ports, and "full" on the left. the macrumors comment section blew up about how "this isn't the same Apple anymore" and "Steve never would've allowed this.

This kind of logic infuriates me. This is not an Apple limitation. Intel has no mobile chips with enough pci-express bandwidth to handle four 40 gbps thunderbolt ports. In 2016, there is simply no way to do this. Even though this is Intel's "fault", I wouldn't hate on them either. No one else is doing a better job.

As you may know, it's pretty easy to find the exact chip that Intel is using in each model. Apple lists the base clock, turbo clock, and gpu. This is enough information to find the chip on intel's Ark site. Once we do this, we find that the 13" Touchbar Macbook Pro has 28 watt i5 and i7 cpus. All of these have exactly 12 PCI-Express 3.0 Lanes. Each "lane" has 8gbps (or 1gByte/sec) of total bandwidth. Apple has stated that the SSD they're using is capable of about 3.1 GBytes/second. To achieve this, the SSD must be using 4 lanes. Now that's 8 lanes to divide among 4 Thunderbolt ports--and everything else. The sound and wireless may be using a lane or 2.

So let's say conservatively that the Thunderbolt ports have 6 lanes to work with. I believe the left ports may have 4 lanes, and the right one has 2. It could be a more complicated way of sharing bandwidth, but the fact remains, there's just not enough bandwidth to go around. One might argue apple shouldn't have had 4 ports then; but I disagree. If they had fewer ports like the non-touchbar, then you wouldn't have as many ports left for your lower bandwidth devices like mostly everything people use. How many of us really have multiple 40gbps devices hooked to our laptops let alone one?

The chips in the 15" MBP have 16 lanes. This laptop has more bandwidth and probably symmetrically feeds its ports, but it still can't max all 4 at once. To achieve full 40gbps on all 4 ports at the same time, you'd need 20 pci-express lanes to make up 160gbps of bandwidth. That's not doable on a skylake laptop.

So my problem is that people are criticizing apple for this compromise. I personally think this is a wonderful compromise. They are the only company to build a Laptop that can conceivably totally saturate all the pci-express lanes intel could muster. That's really impressive. the 15" Macbook Pro has 16 lanes or 128gbps of total Pci Express bandwidth, and with the right combination of expensive devices, you could actually put that much data... through a LAPTOP. This is absolutely incredible and we should be singing Apple's praises not bitching.

 

[wschutz]

I am sooooooooo glad and relieved that I bought the MBPr 13" with the memory maxed out a month before this keynote. This generation is, unfortunately, a somewhat experiment on the TouchBar and USB-C and adopters will pay the price.

Clearly, anyone who wants a new laptop from Apple or renew it... should try to get the previous generation or wait till the next one. There is nothing interesting in this revision besides the TouchBar and there is not even an upgrade on processor just because they came too late. Hence, it really makes sense either waiting... or if not, getting the ones from 2015.

Still... I expect my AAPL shares perform well Next year is going to be a good one for investors (a completely renovated iPhone and these laptops will have the proper specs they deserve at the price of today).

 

[Pootmatoot]

Look there's two full powered Tb3 ports that offer more speed than 90% of users will ever need maybe more but who cares. The bitchers and moaners represent 1% of Apple customers probably less but as I said who cares. Thunderbolt 3 and USB C is the future and that's that. It applies to both Apple and Microsoft...two companies dedicated to pushing the boundaries. In my opinion apples software is better and that's why I stick with them. Yeah they piss me off at times but I still crawl back into bed with them at night. FreshBoy out!

Netflix used to be a DVD postal company. They didn't drop that the day broadband became ubiquitous, there was a ten year transition.

USB-C is on about Day 3 of that transition.

 

[KPOM]

Bet that they knew it long time ago during design stage.

In that case they should make those two slower ports just an USB3 ports - that would make everyone happy.

How would that be an improvement? The way Apple did it you get better than USB 3.1 gen 2 experience on all 4 ports. The ports on the right are perfect for the Thunderbolt 2 adapter.

 

[Jack Burton]

How many actually need that bandwidth on even ONE port much less 3 to 4?

Apple did hype it as a device that can hook up 5k displays on either side. As long as that isn't compromised...

How many were truly planning to get the 13" and hook up 4 TB3 devices that need that bandwidth?

I would think a reasonable guess would be "not many". But surely if those people exist, this has to be uncharacteristically confusing for an Apple product.

 

[KPOM]

The amount of unwarranted hate here is really annoying.

From a post I made on reddit:

As is widely reported, the 13" Macbook Pro has less Thunderbolt3 bandwidth on the right ports, and "full" on the left. the macrumors comment section blew up about how "this isn't the same Apple anymore" and "Steve never would've allowed this.

This kind of logic infuriates me. This is not an Apple limitation. Intel has no mobile chips with enough pci-express bandwidth to handle four 40 gbps thunderbolt ports. In 2016, there is simply no way to do this. Even though this is Intel's "fault", I wouldn't hate on them either. No one else is doing a better job.

As you may know, it's pretty easy to find the exact chip that Intel is using in each model. Apple lists the base clock, turbo clock, and gpu. This is enough information to find the chip on intel's Ark site. Once we do this, we find that the 13" Touchbar Macbook Pro has 28 watt i5 and i7 cpus. All of these have exactly 12 PCI-Express 3.0 Lanes. Each "lane" has 8gbps (or 1gByte/sec) of total bandwidth. Apple has stated that the SSD they're using is capable of about 3.1 GBytes/second. To achieve this, the SSD must be using 4 lanes. Now that's 8 lanes to divide among 4 Thunderbolt ports--and everything else. The sound and wireless may be using a lane or 2.

So let's say conservatively that the Thunderbolt ports have 6 lanes to work with. I believe the left ports may have 4 lanes, and the right one has 2. It could be a more complicated way of sharing bandwidth, but the fact remains, there's just not enough bandwidth to go around. One might argue apple shouldn't have had 4 ports then; but I disagree. If they had fewer ports like the non-touchbar, then you wouldn't have as many ports left for your lower bandwidth devices like mostly everything people use. How many of us really have multiple 40gbps devices hooked to our laptops let alone one?

The chips in the 15" MBP have 16 lanes. This laptop has more bandwidth and probably symmetrically feeds its ports, but it still can't max all 4 at once. To achieve full 40gbps on all 4 ports at the same time, you'd need 20 pci-express lanes to make up 160gbps of bandwidth. That's not doable on a skylake laptop.

So my problem is that people are criticizing apple for this compromise. I personally think this is a wonderful compromise. They are the only company to build a Laptop that can conceivably totally saturate all the pci-express lanes intel could muster. That's really impressive. the 15" Macbook Pro has 16 lanes or 128gbps of total Pci Express bandwidth, and with the right combination of expensive devices, you could actually put that much data... through a LAPTOP. This is absolutely incredible and we should be singing Apple's praises not bitching.

It's nice to get a factual case here from someone who can translate the technical into plain English.

 

[aristobrat]

Are you sure? I can imagine that they might be confused as to why their TB devices are running slower on one side then the other.

The "average consumer" doesn't own any TB devices, IMO.

And if they did, it'd be some cheap-ass external drive that couldn't keep up anyways.

If you read the quote in the post above this one, it explains why.

 

[FreshBoy]

Netflix used to be a DVD postal company. They didn't drop that the day broadband became ubiquitous, there was a ten year transition.

USB-C is on about Day 3 of that transition.

Thankfully there's amazons very affordable dongles and adapters to tide us over. Poor comparison of companies there chap.

 

[smacrumon]

No offense, but only if it's a stupid person (stupid is the wrong word, but let's say "underinformed") observing.
Was it stupid when the 6 Thunderbolt ports on the Mac Pro shared 3 Thunderbolt buses?

Ironically, the little 13" MacBook Pro has an incredibly adequate amount of i/o for a laptop even just counting the two "slow" ports! They're actually overkill for almost anything except a huge high bandwidth RAID Array or connecting an external video card. But of course, there are 2 other ultra fast ports on the other side...

Two fast ports one side, two underperforming ports the other side. And that's Macbook Pro 2016.

Yes, not stupid. Under informed or information neglected.

 

[BootsWalking]

You put your right port in
You take your right port out
You put your right port in and your peripherals run a bit south
You look for the magsafe charger but your MacBook has no spout
That's what higher margins are all about

 

[KPOM]

Will the "Steve Jobs would never have done this" crowd now defend his decision in 2010 to release MacBook Pros with Core 2 Duo chips and USB 2.0?

 

[citysnaps]

The user experience is still there, but it is an experience that is getting poorer and poorer with each product release.

People should voice their concerns, hoping that Apple might sit up and take notice—as it has done in the past.

If everyone accepts what Apple puts out without question, Apple will go the same way as VHS, MySpace, Blackberry, 35mm film, etc, etc, etc.

The offering today is increasingly muddled and compromised and inconsistent. That might be good enough for you and for some people, just as some people still walk around today with old Nokia and Blackberry phones, but it isn't good enough for the people who can see all the flaws and the cheapness and the rip-off pricing.

Apple can afford to lose some of its geek customers, but it can't afford to lose many of them, because the dissatisfied geeks here on MacRumors and other forums are the people who shape the buying decisions of the people that surround them. I can point to thousands of sales in the last ten years that have come from my recommendation of Apple products to friends, family, and clients I have advised. If I cut away the clients, my influence has still impacted on hundreds of sales for Apple, and if I withdraw that support for Apple, the people around me will follow my lead when they next change their computers, phones, and tablets.

And I am not alone. A lot people you speak to on here are people who carry purchasing influence for their friends and families.

Ditching the headphone jack on one device but then using it in the next is inconsistent, expensive, and frustrating for users.

Dissing the function keys and then launching a new MBP with function keys just a few minutes later is utter madness—showing how disjointed Apple’s thinking is.

The issues over RAM specs, RAM limits, battery life, missing power cables, incompatible devices, the need for dongles, etc, etc, etc are further evidence of a company that no longer knows what it is doing and no longer cares to provide the best user experience it can.

Yes, some people—like you—are happy with what Apple is churning out. And some people are very unhappy at seeing a once-great company come out with half-baked over-priced products that offer a half-hearted and underwhelming user experience. If half-hearted and underwhelming are good enough for you, that's great—for you.

Sure, Apple might have moved on. Perhaps it doesn't want the geeks any longer. Perhaps it thinks fashion and celebrities can keep it afloat. Time will tell. But I think the writing on the wall is pretty clear: Apple is haemorrhaging support. The evangelist geeks made Apple what it is today. I really don't think it can afford to lose them, so I’m thrilled to see people posting their frustrations and ideas out in public. The people who take action are the people who change the world. The people who accept things blindly are the ones who waste their lives on mediocrity.

If you think everything is perfect, that's good for you. Don't be upset by other people who have greater dreams, higher expectations, and the determination not to be cheated in life.

I agree 1,000%.

And the absolute best way to do that, getting Apple's full attention, is to open your wallet and actually purchase a competitor product that meets/exceeds your needs, offering a better 13" laptop. If enough people do this I'm certain Apple will take notice and adjust their strategy.

ACTIONS do speak louder than words. Especially in the world of business.

And it really is easy. Simply find a better 13" laptop with the latest CPU, four TB 3 full-bandwidth ports (because two is not enough), 32 GB of RAM (because 16 is not enough), a high-performance color-accurate DCI-P3 display, a great oversized trackpad with haptic feedback, fast SSD, 10 hour battery, excellent sound, all in a 3 pound compact design. And with excellent customer support.

Times a wasting. Be bold!

 

[KPOM]

Two fast ports one side, two underperforming ports the other side. And that's Macbook Pro 2016.

Yes, not stupid. Under informed or information neglected.

Name a Windows 13" notebook that has more than 2 fast-performing Thunderbolt 3 ports. Many ship with a mix of Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C (HP Spectre is one), which is even more confusing.
[doublepost=1477756285][/doublepost]

Apple did hype it as a device that can hook up 5k displays on either side. As long as that isn't compromised...



I would think a reasonable guess would be "not many". But surely if those people exist, this has to be uncharacteristically confusing for an Apple product.

Reduced performance probably means Thunderbolt 2 speeds. And if Apple said you can power a 5K display from either side I'm sure you can.

Read the technical post a few posts above. The alternative would have been a mix of Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.1 gen 2, which would be even more confusing. There just isn't enough bandwidth in the dual core Skylake chips to support 4 TB3 ports running at full speed.

 

[Pootmatoot]

Thankfully there's amazons very affordable dongles and adapters to tide us over. Poor comparison of companies there chap.

It's nothing to do with companies, it's about smooth, considerate transition vs designing a laptop for aesthetic symmetry over function.

You might be fine with a wonderful computer line being turned into an octopus dongle mainstream joke. I'm not.

"It just works" has lurched to absolute other end of the spectrum of "You need an adapter to plug in every single thing you own".

 

[galahan]

I suspect that answer is no because the battery will have a max electrical input that it can take, but would like someone with better understanding to confirm: Could you plug more than one C connector into wall chargers and have the laptop charge more quickly?

 

[bLooded]

What's wrong with you people? Kabylake is out a few Weeks. The Macbooks are in development for a long time. After developing, it has to be tested. The OS has also to be adjusted for a new CPU. This process takes a very long time, so there was no chance to release a Macbook with Kabylake in 2016.

As alternative we had to wait until 2017 for new Macbooks. But that was no solution!

So the Macbook Pro with Skylake is a Macbook with the newest possible CPU available. So why you People are crying?

You couldn't be more wrong. For example the console devs give the companies to test and to develop games for their product many moths (years) before release. I don't think the processors are different in that matter.

 

[KPOM]

Netflix used to be a DVD postal company. They didn't drop that the day broadband became ubiquitous, there was a ten year transition.

USB-C is on about Day 3 of that transition.

The MacBook came out 18 months ago. There are lots of third party cables and external batteries that use USB-C, not to mention many Android phones. And Apple has many accessories out now.
[doublepost=1477756560][/doublepost]

You couldn't more wrong. For example the console devs give the companies to test and to develop games for their product many moths (years) before release. I don't think the processors are different in that matter.

Remember all the issues with graphics in the original Surface Book? It turned out to be an Intel issue as it affected many early Skylake devices.