Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[Sedulous]

Rubbish, priority is given to marketability
The Hennessey Venom GT goes 270mph the Ferrari LaFerrari 217 mph, i.e. the Hennessy is about 20% faster.
the engineering is based on making it legal to use on the roads, cost (normal aspirated motor vs jet engine), manoeuvrability , etc etc, there are thousands of compromises that impacted the performance.

Give up, you sound silly. Of course an automobile manufacturer has to make compromises for the automobile to be usable as an automobile.

Here, I shall try another analogy: A pencil company can make pencils ever thinner. But at some point it becomes too thin to hold, easily broken, and cannot host an eraser. Is this new ultra thin pencil a better pencil? Sure, it might be better for a mechanical pencil user but it is useless for a customer looking to use a pencil. Products need to be fit for purpose. The MacBook Pro should NOT need to make compromises on performance so it can be as thin and light as an ultraportable. It is unfit for purpose. The inverse is equally true. A MacBook Air made extra thick and heavy to accommodate a dozen ports and a hot chipset would be equally unfit for purpose. Get it yet?

 

[LimerickRunner]

I think the base of the complaints are 100% accurate..... Is it really a "pro" machine if the ports are dumbed down?

yes it is, the very top end surface book can't drive 2x4k displays, these devices can drive 2x5k's.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Ferrari is the high end product line by Fiat/Chrysler. MacBook Pro is the high end product made by Apple... do you really not understand analogy? High end means NO compromises.

You're not convincing me that a MacBook is equivalent to a Ferrari. And I'd like to see you convince a Ferrari owner of the same. At best, the new 13" MacBook is a BMW 330i, HP is General Motors.

Do you buy a Ferrari at Best Buy or sitting in your underwear at 1am? High End means you either have $10M in the bank (to spend on a car), and know just the right people, in order to buy (a Ferrari).

 

[Sedulous]

When it comes down to it, mostly what the complainers want is a MBP that is cheaper and considerably more traditional and less aggressively forward looking. Well, to be frank, that isn't Apple, and hasn't been Apple since John Sculley decided to allow Mac clones in the early '90's. If that is the kind of computer you want, literally every other manufacturer on the planet caters to you.

You are mostly right. But the disappointment is not just about a device that is forward looking... it is too forward looking. I think people also do not like a "Pro" machine that keeps shedding features so that can be thinner.
[doublepost=1477876971][/doublepost]

You're not convincing me that a MacBook is equivalent to a Ferrari. And I'd like to see you convince a Ferrari owner of the same. At best, the new 13" MacBook is a BMW 330i, HP is General Motors.

Is it really that hard to understand an analogy? No, a MacBook is not a Ferrari.

 

[rye001]

Forget about it, the new pro is here: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

When it comes down to it, mostly what the complainers want is a MBP that is cheaper and considerably more traditional and less aggressively forward looking. Well, to be frank, that isn't Apple, and hasn't been Apple since John Sculley decided to allow Mac clones in the early '90's. If that is the kind of computer you want, literally every other manufacturer on the planet caters to you.

But John Sculley almost KILLED Apple Computer. Nice way to back up your opinion.

I don't want one cheaper, although that wouldn't hurt. I want one that is 'elegant', and 'USABLE'!

What do I use? USB. What else do I use? Ethernet. Hard wired ethernet. What else do I use? SD cards. What else? A dislike of hauling around scads of dongles/adapters.

I usually am either traveling, or hitting a client site. The former, I probably don't need all those things (USB possible). I hit a client site, and I have to be ready to slay their problem in as little time as possible. I am billed by the minute. I'm not cheap. Farting around with dongles and adapters, and other nonsense, and I'm wasting time, PLUS I have to cart around all that 'stuff'. Yeah, I'll love hauling around 'stuff' that I *might* need. Stuff that SHOULD BE BUILT IN TO BEGIN WITH.

There is 'flying in a different direction', and there is 'flying solo'.

Apple may be trying to lead the industry in a direction they aren't prepared to be dragged. Apple could be going in the wrong direction.

Sure, people were actually able to dump the floppy drive. Most people didn't use them much anyway. USB? Bridge too far...

 

[zhenya]

But John Sculley almost KILLED Apple Computer. Nice way to back up your opinion.

I don't want one cheaper, although that wouldn't hurt. I want one that is 'elegant', and 'USABLE'!

What do I use? USB. What else do I use? Ethernet. Hard wired ethernet. What else do I use? SD cards. What else? A dislike of hauling around scads of dongles/adapters.

I usually am either traveling, or hitting a client site. The former, I probably don't need all those things (USB possible). I hit a client site, and I have to be ready to slay their problem in as little time as possible. I am billed by the minute. I'm not cheap. Farting around with dongles and adapters, and other nonsense, and I'm wasting time, PLUS I have to cart around all that 'stuff'. Yeah, I'll love hauling around 'stuff' that I *might* need. Stuff that SHOULD BE BUILT IN TO BEGIN WITH.

There is 'flying in a different direction', and there is 'flying solo'.

Apple may be trying to lead the industry in a direction they aren't prepared to be dragged. Apple could be going in the wrong direction.

Sure, people were actually able to dump the floppy drive. Most people didn't use them much anyway. USB? Bridge too far...

Uh, the fact that Sculley almost killed Apple was exactly my point. Because that's effectively what the complainers are asking to return to. When the new MBP is perfectly representative of the Apple that made them the most valuable company in the world.

Most people will be able to get by with 1, maybe 2 different adapters/tiny hubs in their bags to make every connection they need. If you travel to client sites regularly and make your living with your laptop, I'm sure you already have a bag of such things because you never know what you are going to need on-site. This really doesn't change anything except which adapters are in your bag.

On the floppy - I was a sophomore in college when the first iMac was released without a floppy. There was literally no other way most people had to move data between computers. None. My entire college life lived on floppy disks. Everyone used floppy discs in 1998.

 

[jm001]

Because for $2300, I'll be expecting a computer that is capable to distribute bandwidth equally to all four ports.

And what do you expect to be doing with all that bandwidth? Simply wait and get a Mac Pro when the newer version comes out. Laptops are always limited whereas desktops are the powerhouses i.e. more ports, more powerful graphics card, EXPANDABILITY, double the max. RAM, etc., etc.

 

[lowkey]

Give up, you sound silly. Of course an automobile manufacturer has to make compromises for the automobile to be usable as an automobile.

Here, I shall try another analogy: A pencil company can make pencils ever thinner. But at some point it becomes too thin to hold, easily broken, and cannot host an eraser. Is this new ultra thin pencil a better pencil? Sure, it might be better for a mechanical pencil user but it is useless for a customer looking to use a pencil. Products need to be fit for purpose. The MacBook Pro should NOT need to make compromises on performance so it can be as thin and light as an ultraportable. It is unfit for purpose. The inverse is equally true. A MacBook Air made extra thick and heavy to accommodate a dozen ports and a hot chipset would be equally unfit for purpose. Get it yet?

The MBP is not as light as an ultraportable. The 12" MB is 900 grams/ The MBP is double that.

And really? A portable laptop unfit for purpose because it is thin and light with port bandwidth of 160GB/s?

LOL you don't get it.

 

[citysnaps]

You are mostly right. But the disappointment is not just about a device that is forward looking... it is too forward looking. I think people also do not like a "Pro" machine that keeps shedding features so that can be thinner.
[doublepost=1477876971][/doublepost]
Is it really that hard to understand an analogy? No, a MacBook is not a Ferrari.

I hear ya, bro. Damn straight on that.

I think most people here want a couple legacy ports, SCSI and FW400, to get them through the transition. Then it would be a pro machine.

 

[lowkey]

But John Sculley almost KILLED Apple Computer. Nice way to back up your opinion.

I don't want one cheaper, although that wouldn't hurt. I want one that is 'elegant', and 'USABLE'!

What do I use? USB. What else do I use? Ethernet. Hard wired ethernet. What else do I use? SD cards. What else? A dislike of hauling around scads of dongles/adapters.

I usually am either traveling, or hitting a client site. The former, I probably don't need all those things (USB possible). I hit a client site, and I have to be ready to slay their problem in as little time as possible. I am billed by the minute. I'm not cheap. Farting around with dongles and adapters, and other nonsense, and I'm wasting time, PLUS I have to cart around all that 'stuff'. Yeah, I'll love hauling around 'stuff' that I *might* need. Stuff that SHOULD BE BUILT IN TO BEGIN WITH.

There is 'flying in a different direction', and there is 'flying solo'.

Apple may be trying to lead the industry in a direction they aren't prepared to be dragged. Apple could be going in the wrong direction.

Sure, people were actually able to dump the floppy drive. Most people didn't use them much anyway. USB? Bridge too far...

So because you need a physical ethernet port I have to have a thicker laptop?
No thanks

 

[sir1963nz]

But John Sculley almost KILLED Apple Computer. Nice way to back up your opinion.

I don't want one cheaper, although that wouldn't hurt. I want one that is 'elegant', and 'USABLE'!

What do I use? USB. What else do I use? Ethernet. Hard wired ethernet. What else do I use? SD cards. What else? A dislike of hauling around scads of dongles/adapters.

I usually am either traveling, or hitting a client site. The former, I probably don't need all those things (USB possible). I hit a client site, and I have to be ready to slay their problem in as little time as possible. I am billed by the minute. I'm not cheap. Farting around with dongles and adapters, and other nonsense, and I'm wasting time, PLUS I have to cart around all that 'stuff'. Yeah, I'll love hauling around 'stuff' that I *might* need. Stuff that SHOULD BE BUILT IN TO BEGIN WITH.

There is 'flying in a different direction', and there is 'flying solo'.

Apple may be trying to lead the industry in a direction they aren't prepared to be dragged. Apple could be going in the wrong direction.

Sure, people were actually able to dump the floppy drive. Most people didn't use them much anyway. USB? Bridge too far...

Well I am guessing that Apple has the metrics to KNOW who the users are. You are an example of ONE.
Personally I am looking forward to having ONE cable hooked into my laptop that charges my laptop while everything else hangs off the hub, I then get to work and plug in ONE cable and BOOM ethernet, raid array, external keyboard/mouse, large screen instantly available, no need to even take my power supply.

As for your example of USB, Apples did this once before, dumped serial ports/Appletalk and ADP bus for USB. At that time there were few USB peripherals and man did people whinge about how their printer, scanner, mouse, joystick, etc etc etc would not work on USB and Apple was DOOMED, DOOMED I SAY. Turned out Apple knew a hell of a lot more about where technology was heading than a pack of whingers on the internet.

Yep there is going to be some short term pain, but long term we will wonder what the fuss was about.

 

[KPOM]

I think the base of the complaints are 100% accurate..... Is it really a "pro" machine if the ports are dumbed down?

Yes. They still operate at Thunderbolt 2 speeds, which is what the current Pros do. Plus there are two ports that run at full speed.
[doublepost=1477879162][/doublepost]

Because for $2300, I'll be expecting a computer that is capable to distribute bandwidth equally to all four ports.

For $2300 you do get that (in the 15"). It is not physically possible to do that with the 13". No one else is putting 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports in a 13" notebook.
[doublepost=1477879307][/doublepost]

Seems strange. If the current limit for Profile 5 at 20V is 5A, why would the MBP draw more than 5A and then damage itself? Shouldn't it be up to the device (MBP in this case) not to draw so much current as to damage itself?

It does. However since 100W is the limit of the USB spec a charger that supplies more than that might damage the limiter.

 

[Sedulous]

The MBP is not as light as an ultraportable. The 12" MB is 900 grams/ The MBP is double that.

And really? A portable laptop unfit for purpose because it is thin and light with port bandwidth of 160GB/s?

LOL you don't get it.

Yippee, so Apple fit 4 thunderbolt ports on a computer. Are you seriously arguing that Apple's ever-thinner philosophy has led to the best possible professional machine?

 

[KPOM]

You completely missed the point. Of course there are compromises but priority is given to performance.

And Apple has provided the maximum I/O performance it possibly can given the constraints of the Intel chip. No one has or can give more.

 

[Hanzu Lao]

But since they are full Thunderbolt 3 it's easy to attach a hub and get however many ports you need.

Yes, i'm dying to buy extra dock and or dongles that i don't want or need. Excellent user experience.
[doublepost=1477879721][/doublepost]

Have you even read the technical posts? It is not physically possible with the dual core CPUs to supply 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports with full PCIe bandwidth. There aren't enough PCIe lanes. So they did the maximum they could and supplied 2 ports with full PCIe bandwidth (capable of 40 Gbps) and 2 with reduced bandwidth (capable of 20 Gbps - fast enough for any legacy Thunderbolt 2 device).

How about stopping doing stupid compromises then? for a pound of weight and few millimetres.

 

[Sedulous]

And Apple has provided the maximum I/O performance it possibly can given the constraints of the Intel chip. No one has or can give more.

I guess it would have been an inferior professional machine if Apple used a CPU that could offer full bandwidth through all ports (as the 15" can).
[doublepost=1477880231][/doublepost]

I hear ya, bro. Damn straight on that.

I think most people here want a couple legacy ports, SCSI and FW400, to get them through the transition. Then it would be a pro machine.

And capacitance gel battery. Never mind that capacitance gel batteries don't exist yet. Surely Apple could have kept a few transitional ports (and none of the IO ports you mentioned have been common for over a decade.. unless you are transitioning from a TiBook, those wouldn't exactly be transitional ports). I like the future but let's be honest, we aren't in the USB-C future yet. Who has a conference room projector with thunderbolt? Good luck plugging in that brand new APPLE iPhone 7.

 

[zhenya]

I guess it would have been an inferior professional machine if Apple used a CPU that could offer full bandwidth through all ports (as the 15" can).

The vast majority of 'Pro' computers the MBP competes with in the Windows realm use 15w processors to the the 28w part in the 13" MBP. You are saying they should now move to a 47w part in the 13" form factor?

 

[Santabean2000]

This is an excellent point, so many people complain here that haven't even touched the new product, I'm glad the glowing logo is gone cos it is different to the old MBP, people will identify I have the latest MBP

Wow, really? Personally, I don't care in the slightest whether other people know if I have something or not. Call me crazy, but I base my buying decisions on what I need and what the product can do...

 

[Sedulous]

The vast majority of 'Pro' computers the MBP competes with in the Windows realm use 15w processors to the the 28w part in the 13" MBP. You are saying they should now move to a 47w part in the 13" form factor?

I'm not sure. But perhaps it wasn't a great idea to go all-in on thunderbolt-3/USB-c. Even Intel apparently wasn't ready for it. Some of the ire about the new MBP has to do with the lack of any other ports. I could be wrong here, but usually Apple has maintained some transitional ports. These could have occupied the right side if Apple didn't decide to make the computer thinner. Likewise, MagSafe could still be used freeing up that precious USB-c port.

 

[Feenician]

I'm not sure

I could be wrong here

And yet you have 13+ posts s**tting on them in two threads on this very topic. Perhaps some consideration is in order.

 

[KPOM]

I guess it would have been an inferior professional machine if Apple used a CPU that could offer full bandwidth through all ports (as the 15" can).
[doublepost=1477880231][/doublepost]
And capacitance gel battery. Never mind that capacitance gel batteries don't exist yet. Surely Apple could have kept a few transitional ports (and none of the IO ports you mentioned have been common for over a decade.. unless you are transitioning from a TiBook, those wouldn't exactly be transitional ports). I like the future but let's be honest, we aren't in the USB-C future yet. Who has a conference room projector with thunderbolt? Good luck plugging in that brand new APPLE iPhone 7.

Apple has always used dual core chips in the 13" Pro. Why is it suddenly a problem now? They couldn't get 10 hour battery life with a quad core. And the new 13" has greater I/O bandwidth than the model it replaced.

Most conference room projectors are VGA. Should Apple support that? It's a given that you need an adapter since you can never be sure if the projector is VGA, HDMI, or some variant of DisplayPort.

Apple has never been a company that kept legacy ports in place "for transition." That's what adapters are for (to transition). Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C are not going the way of FireWire. The PC industry has signed on, so it's just a matter of time before we see more Windows PCs with only USB-C and Thunderbolt 3. Heck. HP ships the Spectre with only USB-C and Thunderbolt 3.

 

[Sedulous]

And yet you have 13+ posts s**tting on them in two threads on this very topic. Perhaps some consideration is in order.

Yeah, is it not honest to preface uncertain statements with "not sure" or the equivalent? I've been around here for about as long as this site has existed and this is news to me.

For the record, I think the new MacBook Pro is a neat machine but it isn't the best Pro machine Apple could have made. I guess I don't view thinner devices with "less" as the direction for this product line.

 

[Pootmatoot]

Wow, really? Personally, I don't care in the slightest whether other people know if I have something or not. Call me crazy, but I base my buying decisions on what I need and what the product can do...

I've always clad mine in an opaque Incipio shell... the light looks pretty gaudy and gauche and teenage, like have giant brand names on your clothes.

It going is the only part I like!

 

[KPOM]

Yes, i'm dying to buy extra dock and or dongles that i don't want or need. Excellent user experience.
[doublepost=1477879721][/doublepost]
How about stopping doing stupid compromises then? for a pound of weight and few millimetres.

There is nothing they could have done to provide 4 full bandwidth TB3 ports except use a quad-processor which they have never done in the 13" model since it would require a much bigger battery and a lot more than a few millimeters. This is more bandwidth than the outgoing model. A lot more. The old 15" had 2 Thunderbolt 2 at 20 Gbps and 2 USB 3.0 at 5 Gbps. The "compromised" ports on the 13" are both TB3 with 20 Gbps.

It is also far from the first time Apple dropped a port or accessory before everyone else did. The DVD drive. Ethernet. FireWire. All of those were dropped and generated the same level of complaints that this move did. And guess what. People got over it.