Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[Sedulous]

Apple has always used dual core chips in the 13" Pro. Why is it suddenly a problem now? They couldn't get 10 hour battery life with a quad core. And the new 13" has greater I/O bandwidth than the model it replaced.

I think it was a mistake to go with only USB-C when clearly even Intel wasn't ready for an all USB-C world yet. Apple should have maintained some transitional IO and then some of this debate would have been moot. In the bigger picture, the problem is what appears to be a trend of form over function. Making the computer thinner meant compromises like middling GPU, limited RAM, smaller battery, no MagSafe, etc.. Atop of that there is removal of iconic Mac features like the illuminated logo, startup chime... and the seemingly stingy exclusion of standard niceties like the extension cord and microfiber cloth.

 

[sir1963nz]

Yippee, so Apple fit 4 thunderbolt ports on a computer. Are you seriously arguing that Apple's ever-thinner philosophy has led to the best possible professional machine?

Well sounds like you should be buying a super computer then, no laptop can compete with them. How much money you go to throw at the NO COMPROMISE solution ?

 

[Feenician]

Yeah, is it not honest to preface uncertain statements with "not sure" or the equivalent? I've been around here for about as long as this site has existed and this is news to me.

For the record, I think the new MacBook Pro is a neat machine but it isn't the best Pro machine Apple could have made. I guess I don't view thinner devices with "less" as the direction for this product line.

I wasn't clear. It's perfectly honest and I applaud you for it and I do it myself (check my last post in my post history) it's just that I think when you have the self awareness to realize that then chucking around the kind of posts of yours I'm referring to in those threads (check your own post history, read them back and see if they truly reflect your thoughts. I think they might not. I could be wrong) then a bit of patience, reflectance and actually trying the thing you're posting about is probably in order.

I have split feelings on the ports. They will surely result in some short term pain and expense and I do not know for certain if this bet is the right one. I suspect it is but time (and either the rest of the PC industry falling in line or not) will tell. I am still baffled by the iPhone not either moving to USB-C for audio or the new Macs not having a lightning port. The latter seemed the most likely to me given the lighting transition is only 5 years out and most every hotel I go to still have 30 pin ipod connector devices in them.

Also the MagSafe thing. I consider it a loss. There is an argument that the machines are becoming so light that either MagSafe has to be so weak as to be an irritant but I don't think we're quite there yet for most mobile Macs. Magsafe was never in any iPad or iPhone because (i suspect) they truly always were so light and so mobile that it never made sense to even attempt the engineering for the the 30 pin or lightning ports. I don't think the Macs are quite at that point yet and I wish they had done the engineering work to combine USB-C with MagSafe, if such a thing is even possible or practical.

 

[sir1963nz]

Yes, i'm dying to buy extra dock and or dongles that i don't want or need. Excellent user experience.
[doublepost=1477879721][/doublepost]
How about stopping doing stupid compromises then? for a pound of weight and few millimetres.

Huh, I know people who appreciated the low weight.

Give it another year or so and USB-C will become the norm for high end peripherals and the user experience will be significantly better.

And, of course there is the alternative, but a Linux box or a windows box and live with a different set of compromises. No one is forcing you to buy anything from Apple, vote with your wallet, though I doubt anyone will notice.

 

[Sedulous]

There is nothing they could have done to provide 4 full bandwidth TB3 ports except use a quad-processor which they have never done in the 13" model since it would require a much bigger battery and a lot more than a few millimeters. This is more bandwidth than the outgoing model. A lot more. The old 15" had 2 Thunderbolt 2 at 20 Gbps and 2 USB 3.0 at 5 Gbps. The "compromised" ports on the 13" are both TB3 with 20 Gbps.

It is also far from the first time Apple dropped a port or accessory before everyone else did. The DVD drive. Ethernet. FireWire. All of those were dropped and generated the same level of complaints that this move did. And guess what. People got over it.

Of course newer ports are going to have more bandwidth. I too am looking forward to a single-connector-type future. But we aren't there yet. It isn't about just the IO bandwidth. It is about the overall philosophy that seems to be driving Apple. Thinner is nice as an after thought for the Pro machines but it is obvious these were built around "thinner!"™. Thus the middling GPU, smaller battery, nowhere for MagSafe, etc.
[doublepost=1477884049][/doublepost]

Apple has always used dual core chips in the 13" Pro. Why is it suddenly a problem now? They couldn't get 10 hour battery life with a quad core. And the new 13" has greater I/O bandwidth than the model it replaced.

Most conference room projectors are VGA. Should Apple support that? It's a given that you need an adapter since you can never be sure if the projector is VGA, HDMI, or some variant of DisplayPort.

Apple has never been a company that kept legacy ports in place "for transition." That's what adapters are for (to transition). Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C are not going the way of FireWire. The PC industry has signed on, so it's just a matter of time before we see more Windows PCs with only USB-C and Thunderbolt 3. Heck. HP ships the Spectre with only USB-C and Thunderbolt 3.

Except that Apple has usually kept transitional ports in recent years. There was always some variety of ports now it is USB-C or hit the adapter store... I mean Apple Store.

 

[bighype]

Folks, please sign the petition to replace Tim Cook before he completely destroys Apple:

https://www.change.org/p/apple-board-of-directors-remove-tim-cook-as-ceo-of-apple

 

[44267547]

Every article brings me bad news.

It must be really devastating that technology has this much of an impact on your life. Wow.

 

[sir1963nz]

I think it was a mistake to go with only USB-C when clearly even Intel wasn't ready for an all USB-C world yet. Apple should have maintained some transitional IO and then some of this debate would have been moot. In the bigger picture, the problem is what appears to be a trend of form over function. Making the computer thinner meant compromises like middling GPU, limited RAM, smaller battery, no MagSafe, etc.. Atop of that there is removal of iconic Mac features like the illuminated logo, startup chime... and the seemingly stingy exclusion of standard niceties like the extension cord and microfiber cloth.

Go back to when the first iMac came out.
No serial ports/Appletalk
No floppy drives
No ADB for keyboards/mice
No external floppy port
USB peripherals were not common and those that did exist did not have Mac Drivers.

The predication was Apple had gone too far and would go broke in months, instead they became the most valuable company in the world. Apple is on a lot of standards boards, it is privy to advanced notice of new technology and is adding to this advancement too. Apple has far greater knowledge of where the future is going than you by a large number of years and its making some VERY educated bets based on this knowledge as well as the usage metrics they gather from millions of users.

 

[bighype]

Except that Apple has usually kept transitional ports in recent years. There was always some variety of ports now it is USB-C or hit the adapter store... I mean Apple Store.

LOL @ Adapter Store!!!

By the way, on another forum, I saw this:


"After the Hello Again event, a friend sent me a vid in which SJ talks about Xerox and "Toner Heads" and how he thinks that Apple now suffers from the same disease:

I came across this pic today on twitter: all the dongles that Apple sells. A lot of the functionality that your computer used to be able to do has now been delegated to expensive dongles.

Apple's now run by "Dongle Heads".
"

LMAO at Dongle Heads!!!!!

 

[Sedulous]

I wasn't clear. It's perfectly honest and I applaud you for it and I do it myself (check my last post in my post history) it's just that I think when you have the self awareness to realize that then chucking around the kind of posts of yours I'm referring to in those threads (check your own post history, read them back and see if they truly reflect your thoughts. I think they might not. I could be wrong) then a bit of patience, reflectance and actually trying the thing you're posting about is probably in order.

I have split feelings on the ports. They will surely result in some short term pain and expense and I do not know for certain if this bet is the right one. I suspect it is but time (and either the rest of the PC industry falling in line or not) will tell. I am still baffled by the iPhone not either moving to USB-C for audio or the new Macs not having a lightning port. The latter seemed the most likely to me given the lighting transition is only 5 years out and most every hotel I go to still have 30 pin ipod connector devices in them.

Also the MagSafe thing. I consider it a loss. There is an argument that the machines are becoming so light that either MagSafe has to be so weak as to be an irritant but I don't think we're quite there yet for most mobile Macs. Magsafe was never in any iPad or iPhone because (i suspect) they truly always were so light and so mobile that it never made sense to even attempt the engineering for the the 30 pin or lightning ports. I don't think the Macs are quite at that point yet and I wish they had done the engineering work to combine USB-C with MagSafe, if such a thing is even possible or practical.

It's ok. Just hard to keep up with the deluge of messages. We likely are more in agreement than disagreement. For example, I think making a thinner pro device meant the loss of MagSafe also meant the loss of battery size, reduced range of GPU options, etc... just so the Pro device could be thinner. I just don't get that at all.
[doublepost=1477885138][/doublepost]

Go back to when the first iMac came out.
No serial ports/Appletalk
No floppy drives
No ADB for keyboards/mice
No external floppy port
USB peripherals were not common and those that did exist did not have Mac Drivers.

The predication was Apple had gone too far and would go broke in months, instead they became the most valuable company in the world. Apple is on a lot of standards boards, it is privy to advanced notice of new technology and is adding to this advancement too. Apple has far greater knowledge of where the future is going than you by a large number of years and its making some VERY educated bets based on this knowledge as well as the usage metrics they gather from millions of users.

True, but the iMac wasn't a professional machine. I had a tangerine model (if memory serves it did have ethernet). Desktops (powermacs) of that same era mostly had expansion slots (except for oddballs like the G4 Cube... which I still have) with built in common IO options, several BTO options (I was thrilled to get an internal a Zip drive on my Quicksilver), and the PowerBooks (I still have parts of my Titanium PowerBook) of that same era had serial port, Ethernet, VGA out, s-video out, USB, express card slot, user serviceable parts... all while being comparatively powerful and shockingly thin (at the time).

 

[KPOM]

I think it was a mistake to go with only USB-C when clearly even Intel wasn't ready for an all USB-C world yet. Apple should have maintained some transitional IO and then some of this debate would have been moot. In the bigger picture, the problem is what appears to be a trend of form over function. Making the computer thinner meant compromises like middling GPU, limited RAM, smaller battery, no MagSafe, etc.. Atop of that there is removal of iconic Mac features like the illuminated logo, startup chime... and the seemingly stingy exclusion of standard niceties like the extension cord and microfiber cloth.

Apple has never maintained "some transitional IO" since Steve Jobs' return. Heck, he's the one who adopted USB-A in the first place and released the iMac without ANY legacy ports, back when there were literally only a handful of USB devices.

32GB is not a realistic option in a mobile chipset because Intel didn't add LPDDR4 support (only the much more power hungry DDR4).

 

[Sedulous]

LOL @ Adapter Store!!!

By the way, on another forum, I saw this:


"After the Hello Again event, a friend sent me a vid in which SJ talks about Xerox and "Toner Heads" and how he thinks that Apple now suffers from the same disease:

I came across this pic today on twitter: all the dongles that Apple sells. A lot of the functionality that your computer used to be able to do has now been delegated to expensive dongles.

Apple's now run by "Dongle Heads".
"

LMAO at Dongle Heads!!!!!

Wow, that interview is like, wow. It sounds like Jobs is talking about Timmy.

 

[KPOM]

Of course newer ports are going to have more bandwidth. I too am looking forward to a single-connector-type future. But we aren't there yet. It isn't about just the IO bandwidth. It is about the overall philosophy that seems to be driving Apple. Thinner is nice as an after thought for the Pro machines but it is obvious these were built around "thinner!"™. Thus the middling GPU, smaller battery, nowhere for MagSafe, etc.
[doublepost=1477884049][/doublepost]
Except that Apple has usually kept transitional ports in recent years. There was always some variety of ports now it is USB-C or hit the adapter store... I mean Apple Store.

Except since USB-C is an industry standard, there are plenty of third party adapters and hubs. And no, Apple has not kept transitional ports in recent years. They dropped FireWire as soon as Thunderbolt came out (selling adapters to connect old equipment). They dropped Ethernet (selling USB and Thunderbolt adapters). They dropped DVD (selling an external drive).

 

[Sedulous]

Apple has never maintained "some transitional IO" since Steve Jobs' return. Heck, he's the one who adopted USB-A in the first place and released the iMac without ANY legacy ports, back when there were literally only a handful of USB devices.

32GB is not a realistic option in a mobile chipset because Intel didn't add LPDDR4 support (only the much more power hungry DDR4).

See my previous post regarding legacy ports. A: iMacs were not pro products, and B: yes, there was always a variety of ports on pro products. One of the first things Jobs did was throw out every product line Apple had at the time and made two very clear divisions of products: consumer / Pro. Consumer products were limited by comparison to the pro products in notable ways. So let us focus on the Pro products since we are talking about PRO products (although the Jobs instituted dilineation is less clear now).
[doublepost=1477885987][/doublepost]

Except since USB-C is an industry standard, there are plenty of third party adapters and hubs. And no, Apple has not kept transitional ports in recent years. They dropped FireWire as soon as Thunderbolt came out (selling adapters to connect old equipment). They dropped Ethernet (selling USB and Thunderbolt adapters). They dropped DVD (selling an external drive).

Yes, maybe so but they did not drop every IO option simultaneously (on pro products).

 

[iBug2]

Except that Apple has usually kept transitional ports in recent years.

Really? Which ones? My 2012 MBP has only Thunderbolt, USB and HDMI. Same as my 2013 Mac Pro. None of them were transitional ports in 2012-2013, they were the standard.

 

[KPOM]

See my previous post regarding legacy ports. A: iMacs were not pro products, and B: yes, there was always a variety of ports on pro products. One of the first things Jobs did was throw out every product line Apple had at the time and made two very clear divisions of products: consumer / Pro. Consumer products were limited by comparison to the pro products in notable ways. So let us focus on the Pro products since we are talking about PRO products (although the Jobs instituted dilineation is less clear now).

And the PRO product has the most powerful and versatile IO port while the consumer-oriented MacBook has basic USB-C 3.1 Gen 1. And no, Apple did NOT maintain legacy ports on the MacBook Pro. Firewire was dropped as soon as Thunderbolt was available. That was in 2011 when Steve Jobs was still around.

Adapters are nothing new in the world of MacBook Pros.

 

[manu chao]

I don't know what a DS is. The point, now long lost in this thread, is that Fiat doesn't make a Ferrari that over compromises on performance. The Ferrari product line is about performance and customers expect that PERFORMANCE takes priority. Is this analogy too hard to understand?

DS is to Peugeot/Citroën what the Lincoln brand is to Ford, except not quite as upscale simply because the Citroën models used as the base are smaller and less fancy.

Your analogy assumes that whatever the highest product line is, it has to offer among the best performance within its very broad product category. Thus since you don't know the DS brand (and didn't feel compelled to look it up) let's rephrase it using the Lincoln brand. Should a Lincoln car be focussed on performance only since Lincoln is the high-end model line of Ford?

The bigger point here is that your phrase "PERFORMANCE takes priority" is largely meaningless because whatever one person considers as fulfilling this statement another person might consider not to be adequate. Take Volkswagen, their brands start with Seat and Skoda at the bottom, continue with VW itself, then Audi, then Porsche, then Bentley and finally Bugatti. How is it for you to decide that the MBP should be the equivalent of Bugatti, just because it has the word 'Pro' in its name and sits above the MacBook line?

 

[KPOM]

See my previous post regarding legacy ports. A: iMacs were not pro products, and B: yes, there was always a variety of ports on pro products. One of the first things Jobs did was throw out every product line Apple had at the time and made two very clear divisions of products: consumer / Pro. Consumer products were limited by comparison to the pro products in notable ways. So let us focus on the Pro products since we are talking about PRO products (although the Jobs instituted dilineation is less clear now).
[doublepost=1477885987][/doublepost]
Yes, maybe so but they did not drop every IO option simultaneously (on pro products).

There isn't anything you could hook up to the old MacBook Pro that you can't to the new one. Yes, it requires adapters or new cables, but that is inevitable and is a one-time investment. USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 aren't going away anytime soon.

 

[smoking monkey]

I think it was a mistake to go with only USB-C when clearly even Intel wasn't ready for an all USB-C world yet. Apple should have maintained some transitional IO and then some of this debate would have been moot. In the bigger picture, the problem is what appears to be a trend of form over function. Making the computer thinner meant compromises like middling GPU, limited RAM, smaller battery, no MagSafe, etc.. Atop of that there is removal of iconic Mac features like the illuminated logo, startup chime... and the seemingly stingy exclusion of standard niceties like the extension cord and microfiber cloth.

PORTS:
There is an argument to be had for HDMI, USB and SD slots, but that would have impacted other things inside the computer and the amount of USB-C slots.

Weight/Size:
Thinner and lighter is not just form over function. Many people carry their computer every day. This decrease in size and weight IS important.

GPU:
You can upgrade to a pretty decent GPU on the 15.

RAM:
16gigRam is enough for most and if you want 32 and say you'll keep it plugged in all the time, then why not just get a desk top? I do think they should have offered it though only in the high end machine. I'm assuming it's to keep assembly costs down.

BATTERY:
this battery lasts 3 hours longer than my 2013 rMBP 15 according to documentation.

LOGO:
Others have put forth a very credible theory for this due to new thinness. Things change. So be it.

CHIME:
YESSSSSSSSSS!!!! About bloody time they got rid of that. That chime has interrupted meetings and woken people up. Best. Thing. Ever.

EXCLUSIONS:
We've all got so many of these cables and clothes at this point. IF you don't, then you can buy them. They are cheap. I'm glad not to get anymore personally.

DONGLES:
There will be some pain with this. Some a lot more so than others. It's pushing us to move into the future possibly too early considering the Apple line isn't yet in sync. But come this time next year I think you'll find everything will be in sync across all apple lines.

MAG SAFE:
I do like Mag Safe a lot, but at the same time, I'm on the go a lot. It has been a constant source of frustration to only plug in the power on the left. Less cable lying around is always a good thing in my books.

VALUE FOR MONEY:
They ain't cheap! But they have been redesigned and have new tech. That costs money.

Personally, I think this is a great computer from what I've seen. I'll be very interested to see the reviews when they come out. The touch bar has me excited. Upgrading a laptop has pretty much followed the same patter forever... lighter, thinner, more powerful, a few different ports. Retina in 2012 was the big change up and now we might have another.

 

[manu chao]

Except that Apple has usually kept transitional ports in recent years.

Apple has done so very rarely with the video ports (at least on laptops). It has never done so with the charging port. It hasn't done so with the 30-pin to Lightning transition.

A USB-C to USB-A adapter is also a pretty cheap and compact affair as with the transition from FW400 to FW800, it is just a rerouting of wires, no electronics needed. And compared to previous transitions, the new port can fully simulate the older port, something that was never possible with FW.

 

[skellener]

For f u c k ' s sake already! Apple really doesn't understand their Pro users at all anymore.

 

[2010mini]

Folks, please sign the petition to replace Tim Cook before he completely destroys Apple:

https://www.change.org/p/apple-board-of-directors-remove-tim-cook-as-ceo-of-apple

Seriously? Apple has been making money hand over fist since he took over.

 

[Sedulous]

DS is to Peugeot/Citroën what the Lincoln brand is to Ford, except not quite as upscale simply because the Citroën models used as the base are smaller and less fancy.

Your analogy assumes that whatever the highest product line is, it has to offer among the best performance within its very broad product category. Thus since you don't know the DS brand (and didn't feel compelled to look it up) let's rephrase it using the Lincoln brand. Should a Lincoln car be focussed on performance only since Lincoln is the high-end model line of Ford?

The bigger point here is that your phrase "PERFORMANCE takes priority" is largely meaningless because whatever one person considers as fulfilling this statement another person might consider not to be adequate. Take Volkswagen, their brands start with Seat and Skoda at the bottom, continue with VW itself, then Audi, then Porsche, then Bentley and finally Bugatti. How is it for you to decide that the MBP should be the equivalent of Bugatti, just because it has the word 'Pro' in its name and sits above the MacBook line?

I'm afraid this is some misunderstanding here. Lincoln automobiles were/are not in the performance racing market... they are in the "luxury" market. So Lincoln makes vehicles where performance is a measure of "style" with speed/handling/power as secondary concern. Ferrari is a line of products made with a focus on racing. Here, performance is measured by "how fast". That is why you won't find Ferrari selling a vehicle with a huge trunk/boot, a tow ball, or often even comfortable seats. The market for MacBook Pro machines isn't putting a priority on thin, performance here is measured in power. And yeah, TB3 has high bandwidth but the rest of the machine is middling spec for the price range/market and sacrificed too much for "thinner!™". The MacBook Air market should be focused on "thinner!™" while the MacBook should be focused on price point.
[doublepost=1477887873][/doublepost]

Seriously? Apple has been making money hand over fist since he took over.

It takes a long time to stop a big ship. Like everyone else here (hopefully) I want to see Apple do well and continue to make products that are both profitable and useful. The accumulating evidence suggests Apple does not understand what people want. Their blurred product lines are evidence of this. Confused products confuse customers. Confused customers do not buy.

 

[tjleonard]

Seriously? Apple has been making money hand over fist since he took over.

I hope that clown didn't write the whole thing, going on and on about having to wait 4 weeks on an order as a point to replace Tim Cook.

 

[lowkey]

Yippee, so Apple fit 4 thunderbolt ports on a computer. Are you seriously arguing that Apple's ever-thinner philosophy has led to the best possible professional machine?

Um...you said "unfit for purpose".
Now when you're shown it's fit for purpose you suddenly need it to be "the best possible professional machine" LOL.

I guess for you bulky and heavy is "best". Perhaps buy a PC?