Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[CausticSoda]

Really? No one here? In this thread where they are talking about this specific issue, crying in rage whether they understand the details or not?

There are certainly pluses and minuses--for me included. But so many of things people are saying have surpassed parody level. Which is a shame, because Apple could use the feedback--but it just sounds insane half the time.

I would say Apple are getting the feedback loud and clear. I am sure that their marketing guys keep an eye on this sort of forum now and again, especially after new releases. 30 minutes browsing comments on recent articles will leave no doubt that there is a considerable strength of feeling that these machines are overpriced and disappointing to many of us. Check out the Microsoft Surface Studio Ad. The product and the ad look very Apple (when it was doing things right). What do we get from Apple now after years of waiting? Touch Bars, heralded as some great innovation.

 

[aUniqueName]

Everyone that is whining about this need to educate yourselves about how a computer works (not just apple computers but ALL PC's).

ALL motherboards have limited PCI lanes based on the Intel architecture/slot type. I built a Skylake i7 PC that had 2 PCI based M.2 SSDs running in raid 0. I also had a single GTX 1080. I would NOT be able to run 2 GTX 1080's in SLI in this system because I used up all the PCI bandwidth with the two M.2 SSDs and a single video card. If I wanted SLI, i would have to go back to a single M.2 or run the M.2 SSDs on the sata side (which would make it slower).

It is physics guys, its not something Apple skimped on, it is how the INTEL architecture works.

People make mountains out of mole hills due to lack of knowledge.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Really don't see why Moderators don't suspend some of these members or even explain to people that this isn't really an Apple issue.
These members clearly don't understand anything about PCI-Express lanes yet troll/whine just for the sake of it.

I don't see why the moderators don't suspend you for calling people "trolls" for having a different opinion. No wonder countries are so polarized in policy and politics when people can't stand letting others have an opinion of their own without calling for those people to be suspended for simply giving their opinion. Whining? Sorry sir, but you seem like you are the one whining to me, whining that you have to see other opinions other than your own.

 

[TMRJIJ]

Of course it's an "Apple issue". It's not about PCI-Express lanes... it's that Apple chose to put in four ports that it's not technically possible to support.

That's the sort of shoddiness that you don't expect from Apple (well, Apple as-was). A small amount of the poison on this forum wouldn't be here if it was two USB-A ports instead of 2 of these semi-ports. A sensible half-and-half for a world that's still 99% USB-A, and that USB-C transition will take years.

This is about the PCI-Express lanes and quite a few Apple Computers back in the day had met this limitation yet nobody notice it. Research Intel Architectures.

 

[citysnaps]

Yes but there is also the fact that you don't have to drive the touch bar or the t1 chip. I'm anxiously waiting for a review of this particular models battery life, than I'm pulling the trigger if it's 12 hours or more.

Apple claims 10 hours of "wireless web" or "movie playback." Apple's usually conservative on battery life. So 10 1/2 hours wouldn't shock me. Twelve hours would, though.

 

[Pootmatoot]

Everyone that is whining about this need to educate yourselves about how a computer works (not just apple computers but ALL PC's).

ALL motherboards have limited PCI lanes based on the Intel architecture/slot type. I built a Skylake i7 PC that had 2 PCI based M.2 SSDs running in raid 0. I also had a single GTX 1080. I would NOT be able to run 2 GTX 1080's in SLI in this system because I used up all the PCI bandwidth with the two M.2 SSDs and a single video card. If I wanted SLI, i would have to go back to a single M.2 or run the M.2 SSDs on the sata side (which would make it slower).

It is physics guys, its not something Apple skimped on, it is how the INTEL architecture works.

People make mountains out of mole hills due to lack of knowledge.

So you agree then - given what you say - Apple's choice to put in 4 ports was ill-advised and about symmetry rather than function?

 

[CausticSoda]

Really don't see why Moderators don't suspend some of these members or even explain to people that this isn't really an Apple issue.

Oh please! I don't know where to begin. That's actually quite funny. I've heard it all today.

 

[R3k]

That's it! Cancelling my order.

/s

 

[truettray]

It's all these hidden things that upset customers, and rightfully so. Much like the iPhone 7's different modems, iPhone 6s's A9 chips, etc.

I know the deal with the iP7 modems, but what's the deal with the A9?

 

[aUniqueName]

So you agree then - given what you say - Apple's choice to put in 4 ports was ill-advised and about symmetry rather than function?

No i don't agree, having 4 ports is great (giving me options as to where to plug in the power). I know through experience that I don't need to use max bandwidth on all of the USB-C ports, just 1 or 2. You don't need it either and if you do, why are you using a laptop anyway? get a mac pro

 

[Val-kyrie]

It's only 20 GB/s per port, if you saturate both ports. Otherwise it is up to 40 GB/s per port (the left ones at least on the 13" MBP) and the remaining bandwith to the other port. If the devices connected to both ports don't require the full bandwidth simultaneously, you'll even be able to use 40 GB/s on one port one minute and 40 GB/s on the other port another minute.

Apart from 5K displays, I don't think there is a single device that can even make use of more than 20 GB/s.


Yes, unless you use optical cables. Then there is also mode that has TB 1 (or TB 2?) speeds using a much cheaper passive cable (aka a standard USB-C cable).

Again, Apple is not informing its customers about the drop in bandwidth. This is an issue of transparency.

I don't doubt that, but it takes two to tango, ie, storage devices that actually exceed the 20 GB/s limit of his current MBP, much less devices that exceed the potential 60 GB/s limit on new 13" MBPs.

The 40 GB/s bandwith is today only really useful for (a) 5K monitors and (b) daisy-chaining of multiple devices (in particular if some of them are 4K or higher monitors). Look, the 'world's fastest external drive' just announced by LaCie peaks at 2.8 GB/s. You need quite a couple of them to exceed 20 GB/s let alone 60 GB/s.

You forgot external GPUs. I am going to assume that the reason I have only seen 1xTB3 port on notebooks from other manufacturers is that it is being used primarily for eGPUs and the full bandwidth is required for maximum performance. This is likely why Apple didn't even broach the topic.

I will wait for real world tests before I assume just how much bandwidth Apple is providing per port and in various use scenarios. To me, if TB3 isn't delivering full bandwidth at each port, then what is the point?

USB-C 3.1 can handle that LaCie drive you reference.

 

[yillbs]

Has anyone in the.. six pages here actually commented on WHAT they would use that much bandwidth for. Can someone share some insight with me, because I'm dying to know how not having 4 full speed controllers is going to hinder you in ANY way imaginable?

 

[lowkey]

This website has to be the most "whiningest" of any I frequent.
OMG the bottom of the range computer can't push full bandwidth out all 4 ports. The same ports people whine that the have nothing to connect to :/.
Seriously over entitled society of whiners.

 

[Blue Sun]

Its still got two full speed TB3 ports. Do you really need more than that?

 

[InfoTime]

Just goes to prove that Apple is dominated by a leftist culture.

 

[Andres Cantu]

I know the deal with the iP7 modems, but what's the deal with the A9?

The Samsung vs. TSMC as the manufacturer of the chip, with the TSMC one being bigger but faster (albeit very slightly).

 

[randyj]

- New MacBook Pro Has Better Keyboard Than 12-Inch MacBook, But It's Expensive and Lacking Ports
- New MacBook Pros Max Out at 16GB RAM Due to Battery Life Concerns
- Apple Says It's Out of the Standalone Display Business
- New MacBook Pros Don't Include Backlit Apple Logo or Power Extension Cable
- Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth
- Apple Continues to Sell Base Model 2015 MacBook Pros at Same Price Points (ty @Pentium)

When will the bad news stop?

You also forgot:
Thinner "PRO" computers for no reason. (Leave them the same and offer 2 day battery!)
The LG display Apple recommends that you plug in at your desk offers, wait for it, 3 more USB-C ports. Why doesn't it offer tonnes of backward compatible ports, gigabit Ethernet, USB-A plugs, old thunderbolt ports etc etc.
The prices are hiked way up. I spec up the max 15" in Australia and it came to $6500 AUD = $4950 US dollars.
They ripped the SD card slot. The amount of use mine SD port gets is nuts. My wife has a 200GB SD card permanently in her MacBook Pro that she uses to back up files and for extra space.
They left the headphone jack... How do you plug your 'New' lightning port headphones into your 'New' MacBook Pro.
Why didn't Apple use USB-C for the iphone 7?
I would steer well clear of lightning headphones as I am pretty sure Apple will ditch lightning next year in the iPhone.

On the plus side, they are forcing people to use migrate to USB-C which offers up to 20v and 5 amps = 100 watts.
Vs old USB 5v and 3 amps = 15 watt max.
That 100w could be used for a standard power supply to charge/supply power to lots and lots of house hold items:
Scanners, toys, tools, appliances, chargeable vacuums, tablets, laptops, cameras, wireless hubs, routers etc etc.
I personally have a box full of power supplies from over the years.
They wouldn't even need to be smart/computer compatible, just that manufacturers adopt the 100w USB standard to power there low power product.
It could make the USB-C port be around for a very very long time...

Personally, I am too annoyed at this stage to hand over my money to Apple. I will wait till next year so there are more 'dongle' options and hopefully a processor update sometime in 2017...

 

[thekev]

because I'm dying to know how not having 4 full speed controllers is going to hinder you in ANY way imaginable?

When you plug something into a port, it shouldn't matter which port. That's a very bad compromise, and many people may not know the reason. It's not the first time they've pulled this kind of nonsense. Certain generations would draw heavily from AC power whenever discrete graphics were heavily used or during any kind of intense computation. This included FCP rendering, not that anyone has heard of that in a while. In both cases, it's unspecified behavior, which is garbage.

 

[ghost187]

Apple claims 10 hours of "wireless web" or "movie playback." Apple's usually conservative on battery life. So 10 1/2 hours wouldn't shock me. Twelve hours would, though.

They are quoting 10 hours for the Touch Bar version with 11% less battery. So that alone is 1.1 more hours. It has a MacBook Air processor, which is 15w vs 25w. Also, Apple is NOT always honest about battery life, sometimes in a good way. The iPad 2 had 13 hour battery life because the A5 chip was updated mid generation. The 12 inch MacBook Air had over 12 hour battery but they don't claim it so it doesn't make the other MacBooks look bad. 12 hour battery life is VERY reasonable expectation in my opinion so I am just waiting for a review confirmation.

 

[Lidar]

Let me guess... The sky now is now falling on hordes of trolls who will never notice any effect of this technical detail.

How many of the Chicken Littles actually need that bandwidth on even ONE port much less 3 to 4? And are actually in the market for the 13" Pro right now? How many were truly planning to get the 13" and hook up 4 TB3 devices that need that bandwidth? How many pay zero attention to far more significant positives, from screen quality to giant trackpad?

The melodramatic herd-weeping is quite entertaining

No troll here chief - just a concerned Apple fan wondering how far down this slippery slope we will slide before something changes at Apple.

To answer your question/statement regarding Chicken Little:
The problem that I have is that they are telling their customers that they have all of this "power" from these amazing 4 ports (subliminally telling you that you will need to buy extra adapters & cables to do most everything - even charge your iPhone!), then they say in the fine print that all is not what it seems to be. They could have used one side to keep USB-A, MagSafe & an SD card slot if the thing couldn't handle all of the amazing power of "4 USB-C Thunder-who gives a crap if I have 4 ports, if I have to use an adapter for everything." Why have the appearance of all of this power but you can't use it? They try to look innovative and compromise too much for THE LOOK.

 

[padmanan]

Apple has published a detailed support document highlighting the capabilities of the Thunderbolt 3 USB-C ports on the new MacBook Pro, unveiling some previously unknown details and outlining the different adapters that are needed to connect various accessories.

According to the document, while all of the ports on the 15-inch MacBook Pro and the 13-inch MacBook Pro without a Touch Bar offer full Thunderbolt 3 performance, only two of the four ports on the 13-inch MacBook Pro with a Touch Bar support Thunderbolt 3 at full performance.

The two ports on the right side of the machine have Thunderbolt 3 functionality but with reduced PCI Express bandwidth. For that reason, Apple recommends plugging higher-performance devices into the left-hand ports on that machine.As for USB, all of the USB-C ports on all MacBook Pro models offer USB 3.1 Gen 2 (10Gb/s) transfer speeds when connected to a USB accessory.

Other interesting tidbits in the document include the fact that six devices can be daisy-chained to each Thunderbolt 3 port on the MacBook Pro, and only one power supply can be used to charge the machine. You can attach multiple power supplies, but it's only going to draw power from the one that provides the most power.

Power supplies that exceed 100W have the potential to damage the Macbook Pro, and accessories like the USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter or the USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter can only provide up to 60W of power, which will offer slow or delayed charging in the 15-inch MacBook Pro. Apple recommends charging the 15-inch model with the power supply it ships with.

Apple also outlines powering attached devices with Thunderbolt 3 ports. The 15-inch MacBook Pro and the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar can power two devices that use up to 15 watts and two additional devices that use up to 7.5 watts. The 13-inch MacBook Pro with no Touch Bar and two Thunderbolt 3 ports can power one device that uses up to 15 watts and one device that uses up to 7.5 watts.

If you're planning to purchase a new MacBook Pro and are confused about which adapters you're going to need so it will work with your existing equipment and accessories, Apple's support document is a good reference to check out.

Article Link: Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[doublepost=1477710333][/doublepost]We miss Steve Jobs!

 

[eco7777]

buying a 2016 mac, just not the "new" mac

 

[cult hero]

The 13" keeps looking more unappealing, especially at the price points. I don't think this is a real issue for most users (who is going to generally max out their Thunderbolt 3 connector?).

There's probably some legitimate technical reason.

I feel like the 13" MBP has really been the "also ran" product since its introduction though. Anyone remember the original 13" aluminum MacBook in 2009? They'd add FireWire 800 a year later and release a gimped laptop with a Core 2 Duo due to Intel not licensing chipsets to the likes of nVidia. Rather than just put a GPU in it they kept the Core 2 Duo and the nVidia chipset. And Jobs totally defended the move too (Google "killer graphics" if you don't remember). The story was the same when the 13" rMBP was released.

No options for quad core, no dedicated GPU, etc. There's a reason I moved from a 13" Pro to an Air on my previous upgrade. I prefer the form factor but I'd like fewer compromises. The Air was just a better machine in almost every way.

My 12" Aluminum PowerBook is the last small pro Apple laptop that didn't feel like unnecessarily nerfed. (That might just me being nostalgic.)

The point? People talking about the issues with this machine like they're new or freak out about how this is all Cook and Jobs never would have done this either are new to Apple or are VERY revisionist in their memories.

With all that said, the size reduction on the 15" model is making it look more appealing. For the price point the 15" seems like a way better value.

 

[Kobayagi]

You also forgot:
Thinner "PRO" computers for no reason. (Leave them the same and offer 2 day battery!)
The LG display Apple recommends that you plug in at your desk offers, wait for it, 3 more USB-C ports. Why doesn't it offer tonnes of backward compatible ports, gigabit Ethernet, USB-A plugs, old thunderbolt ports etc etc.
The prices are hiked way up. I spec up the max 15" in Australia and it came to 5,948.57€ AUD = 4,530.06€ US dollars.
They ripped the SD card slot. The amount of use mine SD port gets is nuts. My wife has a 200GB SD card permanently in her MacBook Pro that she uses to back up files and for extra space.
They left the headphone jack... How do you plug your 'New' lightning port headphones into your 'New' MacBook Pro.
Why didn't Apple use USB-C for the iphone 7?
I would steer well clear of lightning headphones as I am pretty sure Apple will ditch lightning next year in the iPhone.

On the plus side, they are forcing people to use migrate to USB-C which offers up to 20v and 5 amps = 100 watts.
Vs old USB 5v and 3 amps = 15 watt max.
That 100w could be used for a standard power supply to charge/supply power to lots and lots of house hold items:
Scanners, toys, tools, appliances, chargeable vacuums, tablets, laptops, cameras, wireless hubs, routers etc etc.
I personally have a box full of power supplies from over the years.
They wouldn't even need to be smart/computer compatible, just that manufacturers adopt the 100w USB standard to power there low power product.
It could make the USB-C port be around for a very very long time...

Personally, I am too annoyed at this stage to hand over my money to Apple. I will wait till next year so there are more 'dongle' options and hopefully a processor update sometime in 2017...

All very valid points. They completely lots it for the sake of a thinner laptop. I'll be getting a 2015 15".

 

[smacrumon]

HOW STUPID IS APPLE BECOMING? THESE ARE NOT INDUSTRY LEADING PRODUCTS. SO UPSET WITH APPLE. AND SO AFRAID FOR ITS FUTURE VIABILITY.