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Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
on the note of techs. i think all of you are missing the point entirely (perhaps this is why you werent abel to get a degree). i was saying the reason techs dont have degrees isnt because a degree is useless (as so many of you seem to believe) but that it is instead due to the fact people with degrees get better jobs. a tech job is pretty low on the ladder for someone with a technical degree. people with tech degrees are doing bigger and better things with their degrees than some tech position.

I can't bring myself to quote any post that long, so this first bit is just to let you know which post I am referring to.

I actually have a couple of different degrees... neither of which are computer related... and I work as a tech. Mostly I do this because my only other option is to teach.. which I would rather not do. Also, as a teacher in this state, I would have to have 15 years tenure to make the same money I do now, and the education field is so political it's painful to watch, let alone participate in.

Now, while Mr. Lemon is giving grief to people regarding education, some of it well deserved, some not.. he does it with the worst spelling and grammar I have seen on these boards in a long time... with the noted exception of some of the users who are not English speakers. Attacking someone's disdain for education/educated people/the educational process, whatever, while misspelling multiple words in each paragraph is kind of... well.. pathetic. If need be, use OmniWeb.. it meshes with the spellchecking features of OS X.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
on the note of techs. i think all of you are missing the point entirely (perhaps this is why you werent abel to get a degree). i was saying the reason techs dont have degrees isnt because a degree is useless (as so many of you seem to believe) but that it is instead due to the fact people with degrees get better jobs. a tech job is pretty low on the ladder for someone with a technical degree. people with tech degrees are doing bigger and better things with their degrees than some tech position.

does this mean that people with degrees would do a poor jb as a tech, i certainly dont think so. ive found that most techs rarely know more than i do, whereas my firends with degrees in cs ee and what not know a whole lot more than i do and will always be able to solve my problems. ive found that tech generally cant do any better than i can do. saying that a degreed person could not do a better job or (as many of you have said) culd not perform the job at all, is just plain ignorance. thats like saying a person with a phd could not work a job at mcdonalds.

most competent techs i know are college kids who quickly excel in the tech industry but take off to a better job once they get that degree. i find it shocking so many of you are so hostile toward people with degrees, frankly i think this is plain and simple jealousy. you guys need to get of this, if you are not smart enough to get that degree then accept that some people have skills that you dont have and get over it. if you are smart enough and you are still that bitter, maybe you need to ask yourself why you havent gotten that degree you are so jealous of. you guys sound like a bunch of high school kids who proclaim that all the kids who get "A"s are losers and will never succeed in life, and are simply not cool like the kids who fail their classes. serisously, for a bunch of old timers you guys sure are immature.



from what you say, i could tell you have not grown up in silicon valley or nearby like i did

the three people knocking degrees, all of us have a bachelor's degrees or more (unlike you) and two of us have certifications on top of those degree or degrees

i hate to spout it again... two degrees, one certification, one more degree and certification on the way, cs teacher, cs tutor in the college environment, three years in the field, and i am pro-education, for god's sake

but this field of IT in the san jose and surrounding areas is about talent and talent only and the ones who excel and get to the top do not have degrees

having a degree will not be bad for the field and a degreed person will reach the middle of the ladder, but like i said before, talent is it

now, i am almost about to blow my cover...my friend started sun microsystems (look it up) and i was a friend of david packard...and yes, for those of you who know about this stuff in san jose, i live near david packard's daughter and big sur, california and the whole region of locals are intimitately tied in with the valley and david packard, steve jobs, woz, ellison ,etc..

i would love to see you and mcrain tell me your theories of silicon valley in front of mr. packard if he were still alive

i mean, jesus christ, come on... do i try and speculate about where you two grew up without having been raised there...just because you may have come to northern california on vacation or atented school here does not make you a native

only a native could even know what i am talking about

if you want to push degrees, go into law, medicine, or accounting where a lawyer, physician, or cpa needs a degree to be in their field

...but unless you work the IT field and get paid, and live here, and most likely were raised here, your arguments are as ridiculous as me trying to solve the middle east crisis in five hundred words

again, when was the last time i tried to tell you what your hometown and area were like?

as forrest gump said, "stupid is as stupid does"

the more i hear, the more i can see you need to visit the area and just get a clue

:rolleyes:
 
indy thanks for pointing out that i made quite a few typos, that really was helpful. typing on an unfamiliar keyboard after being awake for over 50 hours sometimes mean i hit the wrong keys. so sorry.

and jef before you blow your top try reading my post. ill say it again simply so as not to tax your attention span.

the reason techs generally do not have technical degrees is because the people who have technical degrees get far better jobs than any tech position.

its quite simple actually. and if you know anyone who has received a technical degree forma reputable school you know that they are offered very lucrative job positions well before they graduate simple because educated people are so hard to come by.

and as far as degrees go, i think this might be another source fo confusion. im talking about real degrees from reputable schools. not ms certification or a degree from some "school" that advertises during day time tv. im talking about tier one schools. MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Stanford, etc. i dont consider a cs degree from cal state who cares worth much, and would agree that such a degree does the person littel good over someone who has has no such degree.

jef you are cleraly talking out of your ass. try reading my posts before you spout off about who you (may or may not) know. i never suggested that talent was not an integral part of teh equation, but people who do not have a knack for technology do not generally receive technical degrees from prestigious universities. you name a small handful of people who have been successful in technology but you seem to forget about all the people out there struggling with just as much talent that will never become the next bill gates. you also seem to forget about all the intelligient, talented, uneducated people who are stuck working for companies started by these guys you name who are unable to move up for the simple reason that they do not have a college education. hows that for irony?

but again my point was not that you must have a degree to work as a tech. i have stated this explicitly many times, but you seem to keep ignoring the fact. my point is that the people who do get degrees arent failing at tech positions but are instead achieving at higher levels. people with technical degrees from prestigious universities are being recruited very actively and if you are not aware of this then i would say you are out of touch with the industry.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
i dont consider a cs degree from cal state who cares worth much, and would agree that such a degree does the person littel good over someone who has has no such degree.

And I don't consider the opinion of someone from UC Berkeley worth very much.

Save your pompous opinions about the CSU system for someone who cares.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


but again my point was not that you must have a degree to work as a tech. i have stated this explicitly many times, but you seem to keep ignoring the fact. my point is that the people who do get degrees arent failing at tech positions but are instead achieving at higher levels. people with technical degrees from prestigious universities are being recruited very actively and if you are not aware of this then i would say you are out of touch with the industry.

ok, that is fair...so we don't disagree on the above quote

but the "handful" of people i mentioned are the kings of silicon valley...name a degreed tech/founder on the same level that i mentioned

btw...since you are such an expert of my life and my town/region...where were you raised?

and how many years do you have in the working world in general and in the IT field? after being in the real world, then tell me that i am talking out of my ass

i would love to put in several lenghty essays on your hometown and region and have you laugh your ass off;)

to be fair, tell me where you were raised and in all fairness, i will put my ass on a limb and speculate

ps - i am not trying to flame you since you are definitely one of my favorites, even though i could tell you are a teen or in your 20s...but i don't question your smarts, though...so don't take my statements as an attack
 
Good post jefhatfield....

AmbitiousLemon, how do you explain that my manager (would be a director in title if she was a man) doesn't have a cs degree??? She did get the m$ certifications years ago, but even she says that they are not worth much of anything in today's IT/IS field. She doesn't bring in tech's because they have degrees or certifications. She goes by actual real world experience. If the tech she brings in isn't able to do the job, he/she is gone in short order.

I had a hand in her hiring the current lead pc tech for our Boston site (I work out of Needham, MA). He doesn't have a bachelor's degree, nor does he have any of the m$ certifications. What he does have is real world experience and the ability to get the job done. All of us (especially those of us that are on staff, or want to be on staff) do whatever it takes to get the job done.

While it is true that you have to have a mind that can handle the kinds of issues that computers present, and how to troubleshoot them, you don't have to be a superbeing to be a well respected, non-degreed tech.

As for people with degrees in CS, or whatever you are referring to, being in higher positions, not true. All the people that I know with cs degrees are developing software, or supporting one application (typically the one they wrote or the company that they work at created). True tech's support multiple applications on the systems (and the better tech's support multiple platforms such as Mac and pc :D ). I would much rather be a tech where I can leave work at the office then a software developer/programmer that takes their stuff home.

Oh yeah, and I don't have a degree from one of your 'tier one' schools. But I am a very successful tech. :p As I have stated before, I do have a BFA in graphic design, as well as my first Apple certification (desktop), and working towards getting the porable certification as well.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
And I don't consider the opinion of someone from UC Berkeley worth very much.

hey rower sorry if i disparaged your school or something, didnt mean much by it. i just wanted to make it clear that i was referring to universities that are among the world leaders. the california public universities are quite simply and unarguably the best in the country so i wasnt trying to say that the cal state schools were crap or anything. i just meant to say that they are not in the same category as the schools i was referring to. i will mention though that UC berkeley's academic standings have been in the top 3 for many years and are currently at number 2 in the country (second to harvard) so you dont need to insult me [usnewsandworldreports].

jef, good to see you have calmed down a bit. as i havent slept in some 60 hours ill try to keep it short [as the typos as indy pointed out pile up if i try to think too much on this little sleep]. silicon valley is not the center of the universe. i never once mentioned silicon valley so id ont see why you are so hung up on it. you seem to agree with me [according to your last post] but seem caught up on the fact that i didnt grow up in northern california. silicon valley actually has very little to do with what i am discussing as the computer industry is not alone in the high tech field. [o and since you asked i grew up in huntington beach, ca]. people i know who are being or have been recruited are not only being recruited by computer companies but by the government, aerospace, biotech, and many other industries that require advanced degrees in science. the computer industry is just another cog in the wheel and silicon valley is only a tiny part of teh bigger picture. but again my point was that people with advanced degrees are being recruited into other positions that are much better than any tech job. this is why techs dont generally have degrees in science, it is not that degrees somehow make someone a bad tech as many of you were previously stating. so jef i would encourage you to look beyong your own small part of teh world and realize that there are other things going on outside northern california.
 
the software side techies do often have degrees more often than not...and they are often techie degrees

the hardware side techies often do not have techie degrees or certifications...but there are those hardware side techies who have non cs degrees

the cs degree tends towards the developers more than the on site techs and network admins

and actually both the software and hardware side need each other...but there is a real rivalry...but it is friendly in silicon valley

thank god for all non degreed and degreed techs...the IT field needs us all and i am glad that we are all in this field, or will be in this field, together

also the cal state and uc systems are both very good, and certainly both acceptable for the IT field...go mustangs...go bears...he he

peace,

jefrhatfield;)
 
hm. i think we are all talking about very different things. reading alpha's posts makes that pretty clear. im talking about teh very high end while you guys seem to be thinking much more narrowly. how many times do i have to say im not saying a tech needs a degree? will you people get over your i know so and so and he/she doenst have a degree crap? my posts are no longer than yours so please actually read them before commenting on them. you will notice that i am talking about schools and positions that are unrelated to what you are talking about. and this is my point. these areas are where your degreed people are going. they are going here because the pay is better and the work is more interesting [to them] not because they cant cut it in your field. as i said before making such a claim is like saying an person with a degree couldnt work at mcdonalds. its not that they cant its simply that they are moving toward greener pastures. honestly i think most of you are too close to the issue. you are illiciting emotional responses that undermine your thinking.
 
AmbitiousLemon, get some sleep, then think about what you are saying before you type. Also, try using at least something close to grammer that my 7-1/2 year old niece knows about (and uses).

When you refer to tech's, people (generally) think of the people that maintain/repair their systems. I hope you are not talking about us. Yes, PROGRAMMERS, do need degree's but they are NOT considered to be 'techs'. Hardware developers are also NOT considered techs. Server admins, desktop support, people in the IT/IS field ARE considered techs... get your terms correct next time.

Oh, and GET SOME SLEEP before you post again.
 
Why so personal? Can you all try to keep your posts on point without resorting to personal attacks. Not cool.
 
ok this is my last post, gonna try to grab a couple hours sleep. all this talk about my grammer is worrying me as i think im too far gone to notice it.

but one quick note to alpha, although my posts might seem a bit rambling and grammatically challenged i hope you can still see i am not talking about the it/is fields but looking at all areas in which science majors go.

as this conversation is getting as stale as my mind i think ill catch a lil shut eye now.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
ok this is my last post, gonna try to grab a couple hours sleep. all this talk about my grammer is worrying me as i think im too far gone to notice it.

but one quick note to alpha, although my posts might seem a bit rambling and grammatically challenged i hope you can still see i am not talking about the it/is fields but looking at all areas in which science majors go.

as this conversation is getting as stale as my mind i think ill catch a lil shut eye now.

sorry, ambitiouslemon, i thought we were talking IT/IS 9i jumped in mid stream)...now if we are talking high technology in general...biotech, aerospace, engineering, architecture, etc... then i would agree that degrees are needed in most cases i could think of

but please come visit san jose before you call it small or insignificant...there are 2600+ high tech companies in the region and apple, oracle, hp, sun, and many others are based here while dell, ibm, and microsoft have a major presence here so silicon valley is not a narrow view...not in IT/IS but in the general picture of science in general, sure, we are a small cog in a big wheel

these arguments are not fair mostly because it is three degreed IT/IS people in the field against one college student...i admit, when i was a college student working toward my ba twenty years ago, i thought i had it all figured out, too

and that is probably normal...actually, i would trade in my old body and 40 years of wisdom for being an idealistic teen/21 year old like you and the young generation today will have to carry the torch when us baby boomers retire and pass on

don't take what i am saying as a personal attack, which would be impossible anyway, since i do not know you personally...for all i know, you could be the world weary larry ellison joining here for a voyeruristic ride:p
 
my attempt to jump in here...

I don't care what anyone says...

I think one of the best things a person can do for themselves is to get an education....whether it be formal or not...

but in my experience as a graphic artist...the best education I've received is real world experience...actually working in the field and seeing what really goes on as opposed to textbook study...

I don't think education warrants a person's natural intelligence...and while it can have a significance on their career...there are some very well known exceptions (as pointed out by jefhatfield)...

my big wake-up call to this is the fact that I'm returning to college after having dropped out 4 years ago...sure I have a meager Associate's Degree in Graphic Design...nothing at all in tech...but still...I do have somewhat of a college degree...

but I've also interned for an NBC affiliate doing news graphics...I've done a ton of contract work for design firms locally...plus I'm the guy all of my Mac friends call whenever they have a problem with their systems...and in every attempt I've been successful and have learned something...I even call upon the help of people I know with much more knowledge than I (Alpha u reading this?? ;))...

would I consider myself tech-material...probably not...do I care? not really...

what I do I do for me...and that's what's most important...I want to become Apple Certified for me...not so I can qualify to be "high tech material" or whatever it's been called here...

I often wish I were one of those who could shun all formal forms of education just because I have a vision and that "gift" that the silicon valley heros seem to possess...

this is getting too damned long...so I'll stop it here...but I shall be back...he he he ;)
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Apple has actually been a little schizophrenic about product announcements.

MWNY '01 - Quicksilvers, and iMac update (double release)
MWSF '02 - the new iMac needed to have sole ownership of the spotlight, speed bumped QS came later
MWTokyo '02 - Updated iPod, new Cinema HD, Bluetooth capapbilites; technically a multiple release (though not of the major hardware)

As usual, if you try to discern a logical pattern in Apple's release scheme you're going to wind up with a headache.

Bah...you are wrong!

I went to MWSF 01 and all they had was L3 Cache, 733 MHZ g4, G4 Ti Powerbooks, but NO quicksilvers!
 
Originally posted by MacAztec


Bah...you are wrong!

I went to MWSF 01 and all they had was L3 Cache, 733 MHZ g4, G4 Ti Powerbooks, but NO quicksilvers!

I didn't say anything about what they released at MWSF '01...but you provide another example of how unpredictable Apple can be.
 
Rower....

My bad man...

I thought you said MWSF '01, but you really said MWNY '01. Hehe,

I believe that MWSF 01 has been the greatest MacWorld in the past 3 years. This years SF was horrible. Everyone knew what was going to be released, and it was all over the internet! Even before we got there, there were signs everywhere with pics of the new iMac from Apple.

WHen I went in 01, they release the new Powerbook, Superdrive, L3 Cache, and I believe the Cinema Display? It was so cool! I remember that some guy that was demonstrating the Powerbook saw that I was so interested, he gave me a T-Shirt!

Another super duper cool thing that I swear I aint lyin about.

My dad had been going since like 96, and knew the place very well. He told me to stay here (next to the stage) and said he was going to the bathroom.

He came back and told me that one his way up the escalator, steve jobs was talking to someone on the rail. I didn't have much knowledge of steve jobs, but I noticed my dad was out of breath. I think he was excited :D!

Best macworld ever!
 
Damn Straight

Talk about the most irritating thread I've ever read.

But it can happen when people get onto something they're passionate about.
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
When you refer to tech's, people (generally) think of the people that maintain/repair their systems. I hope you are not talking about us. Yes, PROGRAMMERS, do need degree's but they are NOT considered to be 'techs'. Hardware developers are also NOT considered techs. Server admins, desktop support, people in the IT/IS field ARE considered techs... get your terms correct next time.

Ok, I've kept quiet for a while, but I have to address one point. My earlier point was that anyone who wanted to really make it in the computer industry either had to have real talent or vision (a la the people who founded apple, hewlett packard, even W$) or an education.

I then get attacked by "techs" who don't have degrees with the argument that in the Silicon Valley most successful types like the people who founded apple, hewlett packard, et. al don't have degrees. Their argument implies that I was arguing that in order to be a successful "tech" you must have a degree.

Let me clarify. (edit--> I don't mean to assume I know everything about Silicon Valley, only the following appears to be factually correct based upon everyone's arguments so far) In order to be successful in the computer industry, and have upward mobility into positions of management, ownership, or major development, you have to have either real talent/vision (e.g. Jobs, Woz) or an education.

Now, if you want to "maintain/repair systems" or work in the "server admins, desktop support, in IT/IS" as a tech, most likely you don't need a degree, all you need is the ability to actually keep the computers up and running.

Most support staff in most fields don't require degrees, but rather practical skills. A secretary with a degree isn't worth crap compared to a secretary who can type and take dictation.
 
thanks, i did get a little off topic with the education thing and people's attempts to tell me what the industry and region of my birth was all about because they read an article or watched a low budget tv movie ...only to find out i attacked someone thinking this was the case when it wasn't so i am the idiot who took my adversary here on this thread out of context...so sorry for that, mr citrus

and to mr taxman, he he, all three techs who attacked you have 4 year degrees and two are certified on top of that

but our speculations about apple products here, while we do not work at apple (most of us), seem to keep me going here

the tibook and ibook are the two products that i am interested in, but since this thread has been up so long, we already know that there are not "new tibooks in a few weeks";)

the thread to be changed to "new tibooks when apple feels good and ready"
 
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