Tile Decries Apple's iOS 13 Location Tracking Changes, Calls on Congress to 'Level the Playing Field' [Updated]

[Nuno Lopes]

It would be much easier for me to go android if I thought Apple wasn’t a company I wanted to do business with.

I think normal people want to do business, yet not at any price. The later is in constant evaluation and fluctuates across time. It's not an absolute fixed value. Not even marriage changes this reality if we leave questions of faith aside.

Notice that in this exchange I've never suggested how you should proceed with your businesses. That would be silly.. But it seams that you are inclined to do that when people don't quite agree with your point of view.

If you only want that out of Apple, it’s ok. I personally demand that out of anyone and anything. For that to happen, competition and the principles of mutuality of benefit are crucial. Probably you would not be such a strong Apple proclaimer if it did not host businesses of so many so successfully and so safely. That was the brilliance of the App Store right after the iPhone.

I guess not.

Apple reportedly scrapped plans to fully secure iCloud backups after FBI intervention

Apple’s iCloud loophole remains open.

www.theverge.com

 

[amnesia0287]

Hey I'm not debating if they are ethical with your privacy. Just stating a fact that having the app not being able to track you all the time hinders one of its primary features.

There is no one here making the argument not having always on data doesn’t hinder Tiles tracking ability, but I didn’t buy my iPhone to be leveraged as Tile’s free botnet without my consent.

Currently there is nothing stopping users from enabling always on location sharing with Tile beyond a customers unwillingness to do so. That IS NOT Apples problem. It’s Tile’s. The burden is on Tile to convince all their users to be Good Samaritans and share their location data with them to help users and their privacy policy which points out they use that data for advertising, share with Facebook and anonymize “when possible” and can deanonymize and use freely at their sole discretion doesn’t convince many people.

Apple has always given users the choice to enable location data as they choose, as my previous post shows their controls are extremely granular. Tile seems to feel they should be exempt from such a feature because previously they had the freedom to abuse user location data however they saw fit. Apple closed a loophole which limited Tile‘a functionality and now Tile is crying to the government “no fair” while forgetting Apple spent a whole lot more time money and effort building their devices and ecosystem and have every right to give users such choices whether app developers like it or not.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

There is no one here making the argument not having always on data doesn’t hinder Tiles tracking ability, but I didn’t buy my iPhone to be leveraged as Tile’s free botnet without my consent.

Currently there is nothing stopping users from enabling always on location sharing with Tile beyond a customers unwillingness to do so. That IS NOT Apples problem. It’s Tile’s. The burden is on Tile to convince all their users to be Good Samaritans and share their location data with them to help users and their privacy policy which points out they use that data for advertising, share with Facebook and anonymize “when possible” and can deanonymize and use freely at their sole discretion doesn’t convince many people.

Apple has always given users the choice to enable location data as they choose, as my previous post shows their controls are extremely granular. Tile seems to feel they should be exempt from such a feature because previously they had the freedom to abuse user location data however they saw fit. Apple closed a loophole which limited Tile‘a functionality and now Tile is crying to the government “no fair” while forgetting Apple spent a whole lot more time money and effort building their devices and ecosystem and have every right to give users such choices whether app developers like it or not.

Don’t think Tile is asking for exemption. What Tile wants is to be treated by the ecosystem in equal terms as all devs, and that includes Apple. I use Tile, and to be honest annoys me that I need to go about every now and than clicking OK on a dialog box warning that it had tracked me 12 times or so. Even after setting the Location to Always!!!!

The fact is, that is the expected behavior of Tile. Funny enough it does not do the same with Find My ... and other Apple stuff.

I do think there should be a compromise here. Say an option for the use to definitely agree “Really Always?”, or say after consistently choosing to proceed in a few notices the system to stop asking. Or in the dialog, have a check box “do not ask again” ...

 

[I7guy]

I think normal people want to do business, yet not at any price. The later is in constant evaluation and fluctuates across time. It's not an absolute fixed value. Not even marriage changes this reality if we leave questions of faith aside.

Notice that in this exchange I've never suggested how you should proceed with your businesses. That would be silly.. But it seams that you are inclined to do that when people don't quite agree with your point of view.

If you only want that out of Apple, it’s ok. I personally demand that out of anyone and anything. For that to happen, competition and the principles of mutuality of benefit are crucial. Probably you would not be such a strong Apple proclaimer if it did not host businesses of so many so successfully and so safely. That was the brilliance of the App Store right after the iPhone.

It's estimated there are 1.4B Apple customers, they each have their own line in the sand as to why they do business with Apple, not withstanding the commentary from a small percentage of forums responders on MacRumors.

With regard to the second paragraph that's hyperbole, but OK. I'm all for constructive discourse.

I guess not.

Apple reportedly scrapped plans to fully secure iCloud backups after FBI intervention

Apple’s iCloud loophole remains open.

www.theverge.com

Not really. That's a very effective slogan, because at the face of it, it's false. Dial a telephone number for example.

As far as icloud, if one doesn't want their digital life in the cloud, disable icloud backups or be selective as to what is backed up. There is certainly enough flexibility to satisfy those with the most of paranoia. But don't be under the misconception ones digital life is safe from the prying eyes of LE.
[automerge]1579660778[/automerge]

...The fact is, that is the expected behavior of Tile. Funny enough it does not do the same with Find My ... and other Apple stuff...

I don't even have an option for "always" for "find my" on my xs max running 13.3.1 b2.

 

[insomniac86]

There is no one here making the argument not having always on data doesn’t hinder Tiles tracking ability, but I didn’t buy my iPhone to be leveraged as Tile’s free botnet without my consent.

Currently there is nothing stopping users from enabling always on location sharing with Tile beyond a customers unwillingness to do so. That IS NOT Apples problem. It’s Tile’s. The burden is on Tile to convince all their users to be Good Samaritans and share their location data with them to help users and their privacy policy which points out they use that data for advertising, share with Facebook and anonymize “when possible” and can deanonymize and use freely at their sole discretion doesn’t convince many people.

Apple has always given users the choice to enable location data as they choose, as my previous post shows their controls are extremely granular. Tile seems to feel they should be exempt from such a feature because previously they had the freedom to abuse user location data however they saw fit. Apple closed a loophole which limited Tile‘a functionality and now Tile is crying to the government “no fair” while forgetting Apple spent a whole lot more time money and effort building their devices and ecosystem and have every right to give users such choices whether app developers like it or not.

There’s plenty of people on this very post complaining that tile shouldn’t need always on location services. “But why? It’s just to find my keys when I need it” So I was pointing out that the fact that actually, It should in order to use the crowd sourcing.

The other issue is that iOS 13 doesn’t allow an “Always Allow” for an app to track your location, which is a PITA. As there are apps I always want to allow.

Anyway, once the Airtags are out, you know that this won’t be an issue. And there will be a huge amount of end points looking for your lost item. Which is an advantage that Apple has over Tile. Hence why Tile feel like they have the right to complain. - which they don’t.
Tile should just focus on the Android user base.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Don’t think Tile is asking for exemption. What Tile wants is to be treated by the ecosystem in equal terms as all devs, and that includes Apple.

Apple is not the same as other developers, as they know what they are doing with your data, while they do not know for sure what other developers are doing with it. I trust Apple much more than most third parties and I am willing to improve my experience by letting them use UI that is not available to everyone else.

I use Tile, and to be honest annoys me that I need to go about every now and than clicking OK on a dialog box warning that it had tracked me 12 times or so. Even after setting the Location to Always!!!!

Maybe you are different than others, but most people do not read click-thru user agreements, nor do they read companies’ privacy policies. Unfortunately, when it comes out that a company with an app on the App store has violated customers’ privacy, even having lied to Apple and their customers, Apple takes a hit.

Most people say yes to the question “provide location data always” without really thinking about or understanding what that actually means. I am totally fine with that behavior. That many of these companies have seen a tremendous fall off in user acceptance since Apple changed its notification rules is no surprise.

The fact is, that is the expected behavior of Tile. Funny enough it does not do the same with Find My ... and other Apple stuff.

Expected to you, but there are many consumers who do not understand (maybe because they never read the privacy notice or tracking explanation, how much or how often they are back.

I do think there should be a compromise here. Say an option for the use to definitely agree “Really Always?”, or say after consistently choosing to proceed in a few notices the system to stop asking. Or in the dialog, have a check box “do not ask again” ...

I do not mind being reminded every so often that an app is tracking me, and I understand your desire to be able to allow constant tracking with no additional oversight. What I do not understand is the difference between our observed experience. Some (you included) have said that they are prompted often while I rarely get prompted at all, and I can not think of the last time I was asked to confirm tracking a second time. Wonder what the difference is.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

@I7guy

I'm an old rat, and have seen the unthinkable (hyperboles coming true). Billion dollar company's going bust in the turn of tech so on and so forth. Security details been splashed by tech companies with security experts in their team altogether. Mistakes happen.

I would not like another MS in 90's..00's for Apple. I remember how innovation had a big dip in the Windows space and all tech people talked about was the next GPU and CPU year in and out. The way I see it this happened because the host became a predator after the business of its "guests" using tactics that were quite aggressive. They too thought they were the best, the most innovative, the most knowledgeable, secure, so on and so forth. Customers too, the horde.

Regarding the placard and your solution. The fact is most people, including me did not knew that Apple had the keys to decrypt any of my personal data regardless if it was on my phone or backed up in their servers. In fact, all the marketing spiel pointed otherwise. So as far as I'm concerned there was some info that was being obfuscated by Apple when delivering the message to the customer. Probably the people who wrote did not even knew about this technical detail. Backing up its an integral part of the system, in fact is quite often asked for.

I personally will continue to use iCloud backups, yet keeping an eye on this situation.

But we need to think about this beyond our own belly, because that is the all point. I understand you are American, so I for sure understand you don't mind that your own government and favorite company to have an access channel to your daily life and 1.5 billion people around the global. But Apple is a global company, and other people, in other contexts might not feel that confortable. In fact if Apple was Chinese and this issue raised in China, I wonder how you would feel. I wander how TC would feel using devices from such company, considering the sensitive data he might have on his business phone.

Temptations, temptations ... we are al humans. And companies do make mistakes, no person or organisation is exempt from making them. The more power one has, more impact have those mistake. A mistake by a small company as far less impact than a large one.

@Alan Wynn ,

Apple has my trust to for the moment. But it does not feel right that every business hosted by the Apple platform should be treated has potential "crooks". This harms devs business regardless of their best effort, intentions and security measures. You see, people are innocent until proven otherwise. Not guilty.

Tile is expected to "continuously" track your tagged belongings using your phone. Furthermore, Tile can only does that when the app is running, meaning open. So quite probably you have it closed if you are not getting this warning. This is indeed why I don't like Tile solution, as often I close apps, and need to remember not to close Tile if I want tracking to work efficiently.

Hey. But look at the suggestions presented. A checkbox of type "don't ask me again" is a common feature, and Apple use it in several instances in MacOS, so do Browsers.

Again, I'm an old rat. I've seen the unthinkable, take FB for instance ...

Apple is a great company and huge company indeed, but it needs to be scrutinised like any other, by customers and society as a whole. In and out of their ecosystem. As the business grows, its natural so their services and products. People tend to cast a blind eye in face of success. More so in case of huge success. So do I. But they can now be part of every single instance of your life and business, from what to see and read down to a simple transaction in a grocery shop, all one company. You, me ... totaling the sum of the population of several countries. This is not the same as dealing with a small to medium company, by any means. The ”light and time” bends due gravity with phenomena’s of this magnitude.

Don't understand why your guys are so resistant to this. It's because you trust them and no other? The way I see it, that is not a general principle.

You see, I too trust Apple to do the right thing.

Cheers.

 

[Alan Wynn]

The way I see it to this happened because the host became a predator after the business of its "guests".

These are not ”guests”, they are companies who are reliant on another company’s products for their success and that entails risks. That is just the way the world works. Let us go back to the origin of the term “sherlocked”. While they made a cool product, Apple’s integration of similar functionality improved macOS for all users, not just the small number who bought Sherlock. Is it your argument that platform companies should not improve their platforms? While I am sure you know of Visio (a company bought by Microsoft), and may know of Omni Graffle, but you probably have not heard of Diagram, the product from Lighthouse Design for NeXTSTEP that was the inspiration for both of them. Sometimes products and technologies created by small companies are copied by others and sometimes the companies are acquired.

Unless one has patented IP, there is not much one can do to prevent it, other than by being so well loved by one’s customers that they will not switch. That is just very rare.

The fact is most people, including me did not knew that Apple had the keys to decrypt any of my personal data regardless if it was on my phone or backed up in their servers.

Apple cannot decrypt data stored on your iPhone. They have offered a solution for encrypted backup (using iTunes, finder or iMazing to perform encrypted local backups) that is totally secure, but has its own set of trade offs (if one loses or forgets the key the data is gone, and if the device on which the backup resides fails the data is gone).

So as far as I'm concerned there was some info that was being obfuscated by Apple when delivering the message to the customer.

Apple has always been upfront about iCloud data being accessible to law enforcement. Tim Cook has said they would like to move to an end-to-end encrypted model, but until they have a better way to ensure that people will not lose all their data when they lose their devices, they cannot do so.

Backing up its an integral part of the system, in fact is quite often asked for.

A very large percentage of users does not backup their data at all, despite how easy it is. That said, Apple offer the option of encrypted local backups for those who want them.

I understand you are American, so I for sure understand you don't mind that your own government and favorite company to have an access channel to your daily life and 1.5 billion people around the global.

I do mind, but I do not currently have a better alternative. I would be much happier were iCloud to be encrypted, and I hope Apple will figure out a solution for this.

In fact if Apple was Chinese and this issue raised in China, I wonder how you would feel.

I would not store my data there, just as I would not store my data on Russian systems.

I wander how TC would feel using devices from such company, considering the sensitive data he might have on his business phone.

My presumption is that he would not do it, just as I would not do it.

A mistake by a small company as far less impact than a large one.

It is not the size of the company, it is the size of its user base and the amount of data it stores.

But it does not feel right that every business hosted by the Apple platform should be treated has potential "crooks". This harms devs business regardless of their best effort, intentions and security measures. You see, people are innocent until proven otherwise. Not guilty.

Sorry, you are just wrong here. Apple had to earn my trust and every other company that wants my business needs to do the same. People are innocent until proven guilty, only in the criminal deals with the government, not in commercial transactions with other individuals. When someone calls you that you do not know do you provide them with all your personal data because they claim to want to help you? Obviously not. That is because you need them to earn your trust.

A checkbox of type "don't ask me again" is a common feature, and Apple use it in several instances in MacOS, so do Browsers.

These are common, but the issue that Apple has is that most people ignore all the warnings, until there is a problem and then they blame Apple even when it was not their fault.

Don't understand why your guys are so resistant to this basic principle. It's because you trust them and n to others? The way I see it, that is not a general principle.

Yes, I trust them because they have earned my trust. I do not trust Tile because even their current privacy policy makes them untrustworthy let alone their options to change that policy at will.

 

[I7guy]

@I7guy

I'm an old rat, and have seen the unthinkable (hyperboles coming true). Billion dollar company's going bust in the turn of tech so on and so forth. Security details been splashed by tech companies with security experts in their team altogether. Mistakes happen.

I would not like another MS in 90's..00's for Apple. I remember how innovation had a big dip in the Windows space and all tech people talked about was the next GPU and CPU year in and out. The way I see it this happened because the host became a predator after the business of its "guests" using tactics that were quite aggressive. They too thought they were the best, the most innovative, the most knowledgeable, secure, so on and so forth. Customers too, the horde.

Regarding the placard and your solution. The fact is most people, including me did not knew that Apple had the keys to decrypt any of my personal data regardless if it was on my phone or backed up in their servers. In fact, all the marketing spiel pointed otherwise. So as far as I'm concerned there was some info that was being obfuscated by Apple when delivering the message to the customer. Probably the people who wrote did not even knew about this technical detail. Backing up its an integral part of the system, in fact is quite often asked for.

I personally will continue to use iCloud backups, yet keeping an eye on this situation.

But we need to think about this beyond our own belly, because that is the all point. I understand you are American, so I for sure understand you don't mind that your own government and favorite company to have an access channel to your daily life and 1.5 billion people around the global. But Apple is a global company, and other people, in other contexts might not feel that confortable. In fact if Apple was Chinese and this issue raised in China, I wonder how you would feel. I wander how TC would feel using devices from such company, considering the sensitive data he might have on his business phone.

Temptations, temptations ... we are al humans. And companies do make mistakes, no person or organisation is exempt from making them. The more power one has, more impact have those mistake. A mistake by a small company as far less impact than a large one.

@Alan Wynn ,

Apple has my trust to for the moment. But it does not feel right that every business hosted by the Apple platform should be treated has potential "crooks". This harms devs business regardless of their best effort, intentions and security measures. You see, people are innocent until proven otherwise. Not guilty.

Tile is expected to "continuously" track your tagged belongings using your phone. Furthermore, Tile can only does that when the app is running, meaning open. So quite probably you have it closed if you are not getting this warning. This is indeed why I don't like Tile solution, as often I close apps, and need to remember not to close Tile if I want tracking to work efficiently.

Hey. But look at the suggestions presented. A checkbox of type "don't ask me again" is a common feature, and Apple use it in several instances in MacOS, so do Browsers.

Again, I'm an old rat. I've seen the unthinkable, take FB for instance ...

Apple is a great company and huge company indeed, but it needs to be scrutinised like any other, by customers and society as a whole. In and out of their ecosystem. As the business grows, its natural so their services and products. People tend to cast a blind eye in face of success. More so in case of huge success. So do I. But they can now be part of every single instance of your life and business, from what to see and read down to a simple transaction in a grocery shop, all one company. You, me ... totaling the sum of the population of several countries. This is not the same as dealing with a small to medium company, by any means. The ”light and time” bends due gravity with phenomena’s of this magnitude.

Don't understand why your guys are so resistant to this. It's because you trust them and no other? The way I see it, that is not a general principle.

You see, I too trust Apple to do the right thing.

Cheers.

I remember watching tv on oblong black and white picture tubes where the tv was in an ornate cabinet.

Some people don't care about privacy and some do. Facebook is the ultimate abuser. As far as 3rd party apps like tile you are putting your trust in them, or not, that they are treating your data with some respect. Some apps proved they are not.

We trust Apple is handling our data the exact opposite of Facebook. I knew for a while Apple was able to hand over iCloud data given an appropriate warrant. What I didn’t know was that Apple was thinking about encrypting end to end, which means Apple could not help and resurrect a phone where the password was forgotten.

MS, google, amazon and Apple all in the same boat. One would hope that proper procedure of law is followed to get to our data.

But we have no choice unless we want to get off the grid.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I remember watching tv on oblong black and white picture tubes where the tv was in an ornate cabinet.

I do remember when my family got our first color TV. The 19” set was premium from the bank where my grandmother opened a CD.

Some people don't care about privacy and some do.

The more serious problem for companies like Apple are the people who do not care about privacy right up until they do. They give away their data to people like Facebook with no limits and then something happens and they shout: “Why didn’t you protect us!”

Facebook is the ultimate abuser.

I think Facebook has always been pretty clear that they are all about selling their users’ information.

We trust Apple is handling our data the exact opposite of Facebook. I knew for a while Apple was able to hand over iCloud data given an appropriate warrant. What I didn’t know was that Apple was thinking about encrypting end to end, which means Apple could not help and resurrect a phone where the password was forgotten.

Until they have a pretty solid way to resolve that issue, they do not really have a good option here.

 

[Abazigal]

I think Facebook has always been pretty clear that they are all about selling their users’ information.

In all fairness, people were right when they asserted that Facebook had no incentive to sell our data because it would be more profitable to sell targeted ads based on our profiles.

What they didn’t account for was Facebook’s willingness to trade the data they did have for data that they lacked (and which other companies had). And that their misguided desire to build a platform meant exposing our data to whichever developer willingly used their APIs.

Facebook may not have openly hawked our data, but their utter disregard in this area is no less heinous a crime, IMO.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

@I7guy,

Personally I have no issue giving the proper authorities access to my information upon due diligence according the law in a democracy, case in case in my country. Or any other country in a multinational effort where my country is part of (multinational police etc etc)

I do have problem with being a private company holding the keys to access such data with no supervision.

Technically there are solutions to deal with this (multi key solutions). And are not very expensive. All it’s needed is the will of private and public sector to make that happen.. This cannot be dealt just by which company we trust and which we don’t.

I find it perplexing how companies talk about backdoors for governmentolice access as terrible. Yet owning all the keys is not terrible. What is a backdoor? A key specific to an individual / organization secured in some high security volt whose access is granted/warranted only by judge? A key that not even the private company hosting the service knows? What is the problem of that? Not enough time to hide the books?

I think this is crucial for the Internet to move forward.

 

[amnesia0287]

Don’t think Tile is asking for exemption. What Tile wants is to be treated by the ecosystem in equal terms as all devs, and that includes Apple. I use Tile, and to be honest annoys me that I need to go about every now and than clicking OK on a dialog box warning that it had tracked me 12 times or so. Even after setting the Location to Always!!!!

Apple DOES treat all app developers the same. What you are missing is the Find My app DOES NOT use Always Track, it’s not even an option for the app, because they are leveraging core Operating System functionality (Which Apple still gives you control over). Tile wants access to the same core OS functions despite not having anything to do with the OS. That is an exemption. The device itself puts its location into iCloud. Find My simply lets you view the locations that have been uploaded.

Tile wants to mimic this function, which is fine, but that doesn’t mean it should be tied to the core OS Location Services as when I enable location services, my only intention is my location is shared with Apple.

I will agree that the “you have been tracked x times” pop up should have a “don’t warn me again option” simply to appease users who get annoyed, but that’s not going to solve tiles problem of users choosing only while using the app.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Tile does not want to mimic anything regarding Find My. .Tile simply wants to be able to execute its service while the app is not running/open ... as per user decision. This would improve greatly the user experience, just that. According to Tile, even though the tiles may be transmitting its location, if the app is not running, it cannot receive the “call” and process the location of the tile. Even if the users agrees with it. No data needs to be transmitted to the Tile cloud unless you want the tiles to be located by your other devices, or shared with other users. This is totally different from how Find My works today. The device being tracked needs to be connected to the Internet, Tiles do not as they connect to the phone via Bluetooth. It’s the app on the phone that calculates its location. The app needs location services in order to establish its location to then calculate the relative location of the tile. It does not need the Internet to do that, just GPS. Now it will need the Internet to translate coordinates into a position on a map (a query much like you do with Apple Maps and Google Maps), but only when you open the app.

Tile was fine with this solution until Apple decided to compete for the same use casss. Because this is something that Apple solution will be able to do without the need for Find My to be running as it will be able to inject a light weight event handler in the scheduler to receive the “buttons” calls,. Tile wants access to this specific ability so it can offer an equal user experience. To register an event handler to receive “calls” from its tiles.

Why can Apple do that and Tile not, you need to ask Apple. But people go from this to trust and privacy ... madness.

Apple uses these constraints by policy all the time when entering new businesses. It used against Spotify, NFC based payments (banking), now Tile, and other businesses. So it’s kind suspicious that there is another motif rather than business being business. And as business it should be treated.

You see. iOS is it’s no longer just an OS. It services a population of the size of several countries. Meaning that it became a business host. Apple is proud of that and so it should. It’s good for customers, it’s good for Apple device sales, it’s good for their services as customer needs are varied. Yet I think Apple is pushing the envelop a bit far with some practices.

But hey. It is just my opinion. I may né wrong ...

 

[amnesia0287]

If tile wants deep OS level integration... they should make their own OS or use an open source one and fork it. How the current find my app works is no different than it has since the find my iPhone app first launched years ago before tile even existed.

Tile should be able to leverage background app refresh just like any other app to “receive the call” that’s literally the entire idea behind push notifications:

Pushing background updates to your App | Apple Developer Documentation

Deliver notifications that wake your app and update it in the background.

developer.apple.com

If you select always allow, the app is always able to access location services and request the current location. They are also able to access Bluetooth in the background like any other app: https://developer.apple.com/library...ormingTasksWhileYourAppIsInTheBackground.html

I’m not sure what the basis of your statements above are but they aren’t based on facts.

All Apple changed was they made open access to location services opt in per app.

Tile currently has 3 issues, the first I believe is the always allow option is only available in the settings and not when the app first requests permissions. Apple has already said they plan to change this. The second is that it warns periodically when it is checking location with no way to disable the warnings. Apple has not yet made a statement regarding that which I’m aware of. The third is most people are not choosing to enable always allow no matter how many pop ups tile hammers them with. That is entirely tiles issue and has nothing to do with Apple.

You should do more than just read what Tile claims before you form such opinions.

 

[I7guy]

Tile does not want to mimic anything regarding Find My. .Tile simply wants to be able to execute its service while the app is not running/open ... as per user decision. This would improve greatly the user experience, just that. According to Tile, even though the tiles may be transmitting its location, if the app is not running, it cannot receive the “call” and process the location of the tile. Even if the users agrees with it. No data needs to be transmitted to the Tile cloud unless you want the tiles to be located by your other devices, or shared with other users. This is totally different from how Find My works today. The device being tracked needs to be connected to the Internet, Tiles do not as they connect to the phone via Bluetooth. It’s the app on the phone that calculates its location. The app needs location services in order to establish its location to then calculate the relative location of the tile. It does not need the Internet to do that, just GPS. Now it will need the Internet to translate coordinates into a position on a map (a query much like you do with Apple Maps and Google Maps), but only when you open the app.

Tile was fine with this solution until Apple decided to compete for the same use casss. Because this is something that Apple solution will be able to do without the need for Find My to be running as it will be able to inject a light weight event handler in the scheduler to receive the “buttons” calls,. Tile wants access to this specific ability so it can offer an equal user experience. To register an event handler to receive “calls” from its tiles.

Why can Apple do that and Tile not, you need to ask Apple. But people go from this to trust and privacy ... madness.

Apple uses these constraints by policy all the time when entering new businesses. It used against Spotify, NFC based payments (banking), now Tile, and other businesses. So it’s kind suspicious that there is another motif rather than business being business. And as business it should be treated.

You see. iOS is it’s no longer just an OS. It services a population of the size of several countries. Meaning that it became a business host. Apple is proud of that and so it should. It’s good for customers, it’s good for Apple device sales, it’s good for their services as customer needs are varied. Yet I think Apple is pushing the envelop a bit far with some practices.

But hey. It is just my opinion. I may né wrong ...

If enabled by the owner find my works offline also.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

If tile wants deep OS level integration... they should make their own OS o

What is deep level OS integration? We are talking application level API to simple stuff. This a well known studied subject. It's not like Tile would like to change the OS scheduler, drivers or any of such sort.

You see, the issue is not location service access, never was. But I'm sure if that was not available would be due to deep OS level integration challenges right?

People use tech punch words and phrases with no clue about what they are talking about.

have fun

 

[amnesia0287]

What is deep level OS integration? We are talking application level API to simple stuff. This a well known studied subject. It's not like Tile would like to change the OS scheduler, drivers or any of such sort.

You see, the issue is not location service access, never was. But I'm sure if that was not available would be due to deep OS level integration challenges right?

People use tech punch words and phrases with no clue about what they are talking about.

have fun

im a full time software engineer. I understand these apis just fine. Nothing you have said tile can’t do is true I can find the apis to do all those things well documented.

Tile wants to go back in time to when they got location services access when it was enabled for the device. Your argument seems to be that users shouldnt have control of this and Apple shouldn’t be allowed to bake features into their os to leverage with only their apps.

that is ridiculous they are Apple devices with apples os. Apple is the only one who has a right to decide what to expose and what not to expose. You keep acting like Apple and app developers are comparable and equal existences. They are not. No one requires people to support iOS. If Apple wanted to they could straight up remove the App Store. It was NOT one of the features of the original iPhone. Apple CHOSE to open their platform to developers.

was this beneficial to them sure, but as the os and device designer that was their freedom.

What is the specific technical limitation in iOS you believe is preventing Tile from working as designed when always track is enabled? Don’t be general? Background WiFi? Background Bluetooth? Background push? Background location services? Cause tile like any other app can leverage all of those things.

you mention using the scheduler. But they can do that: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/backgroundtasks

so what is it?

Deep OS integration is how Apples FindMy app is able to track locations of things without always on location services. Because as shown in this image I posted before, those settings are managed at a device and not an app level for iOS and Apple:

Do you see that Find my iPad option? That is what would be considered Deep OS level integration. Same with Share my Location.

If you don’t understand the difference it is you who is lacking the technical depth to discuss such things. Not me.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I understand these apis just fine. Nothing you have said tile can’t do is true I can find the apis to do all those things well documented.

Well put.

Tile wants to go back in time to when they got location services access when it was enabled for the device. Your argument seems to be that users shouldnt have control of this and Apple shouldn’t be allowed to bake features into their os to leverage with only their apps.

Exactly. When users get to choose to enable or disable background location share, most choose not to do so. This is problematic for Tile, but clearly what users want.

that is ridiculous they are Apple devices with apples os. Apple is the only one who has a right to decide what to expose and what not to expose.

This seems to be a common misconception. “It is my device, I should be able to do what I want with it.” However, the software is only licensed to me as a user, and I know upfront what Apple restrictions are. If I do not want to live with them, I can return the device and buy something else.

You keep acting like Apple and app developers are comparable and equal existences. They are not. No one requires people to support iOS. If Apple wanted to they could straight up remove the App Store. It was NOT one of the features of the original iPhone. Apple CHOSE to open their platform to developers.

Creating billions in revenue for those developer.

was this beneficial to them sure, but as the os and device designer that was their freedom.

It also benefited the developers and end users, but Apple has made it very clear that they can and will restrict developers that do things they do not like.

If you don’t understand the difference it is you who is lacking the technical depth to discuss such things. Not me.

Well explained. Thanks!

 

[Nuno Lopes]

im a full time software engineer. I understand these apis just fine. Nothing you have said tile can’t do is true I can find the apis to do all those things well documented.

Tile wants to go back in time to when they got location services access when it was enabled for the device. Your argument seems to be that users shouldnt have control of this and Apple shouldn’t be allowed to bake features into their os to leverage with only their apps.

that is ridiculous they are Apple devices with apples os. Apple is the only one who has a right to decide what to expose and what not to expose. You keep acting like Apple and app developers are comparable and equal existences. They are not. No one requires people to support iOS. If Apple wanted to they could straight up remove the App Store. It was NOT one of the features of the original iPhone. Apple CHOSE to open their platform to developers.

was this beneficial to them sure, but as the os and device designer that was their freedom.

What is the specific technical limitation in iOS you believe is preventing Tile from working as designed when always track is enabled? Don’t be general? Background WiFi? Background Bluetooth? Background push? Background location services? Cause tile like any other app can leverage all of those things.

you mention using the scheduler. But they can do that: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/backgroundtasks

so what is it?

Deep OS integration is how Apples FindMy app is able to track locations of things without always on location services. Because as shown in this image I posted before, those settings are managed at a device and not an app level for iOS and Apple:

View attachment 890461

Do you see that Find my iPad option? That is what would be considered Deep OS level integration. Same with Share my Location.

If you don’t understand the difference it is you who is lacking the technical depth to discuss such things. Not me.

The fact is that if the app is not open, either in foreground or the background than it’s not able to receive Bluetooth “beams” from Tiles . So all those well documented APIs ... Let’s see if Find My will need to be open either in the foreground or background for it work with Apple buttons ... I know I know low level access ... just like NFC for Apple Pay.

Maybe you should work for Tile or be a consultant. Because obviously they don’t know how to make it work well without the app being opened by the user and kept running by the user in the background.

Send them these links, because you have found the solution

The fact is that these limitation are defined by Policy, not technology.

Now you may belong to the camp that an organization regardless of its size has the right to exercise whatever policy over their products or services. But you see, that is not how the law and justice works. Just because you own something it does not give the right to use it in whatever ways to harm others. The company can exercise whatever they want according to the law. And the law moves beyond one particular company needs or wants. Without law , we would be nothing but savages.

Cheers.

PS: Yeah. Tile wants location services enabled all the time without the user consent, you know like it was. Not only they are incompetent (Don’t read the docs) and they seam to want to pry on users.

For me, this is a ridiculous stance!!!

I have seen this “stuff” in the Windows space and ... anyway it’s not my problem.

Have fun.

 

[I7guy]

The fact is that if the app is not open, either in foreground or the background than it’s not able to receive Bluetooth “beams” from Tiles . So all those well documented APIs ... Let’s is if Find My will need to be open either in the foreground or background for it work.

Apple's servers does the searching, from what I can gather. The owner gets a notification on their device, which makes sense because, at least on my iphone, find my doesn't have an "always" option. Makes no sense to keep find my open 24x7 waiting for an offline device to be crowd sourced.

Maybe you should work for Tile or be a consultant. Because obviously they don’t know how to make it work well without the app being opened by the user and kept running by the user in the background.

Send them these links, because you have found the solution

Cheers.

PS: Yeah. Tile wants location services enabled all the time without the user consent, you know like it was. Not only they are incompetent (Don’t read the docs) and they seam to want to pry on users.

I have seen this “stuff” in the Windows space and ... anyway it’s not my problem.

Have fun.

Maybe Tile doesn't know what changes to make because of ios 13. They probably wouldn't be the first or last.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Apple's servers does the searching, from what I can gather. The owner gets a notification on their device, which makes sense because, at least on my iphone, find my doesn't have an "always" option. Makes no sense to keep find my open 24x7 waiting for an offline device to be crowd sourced.

Tile use P2P on top of Bluetooth because it’s Tiles do not have access to the Internet. It has nothing todo with Find My app.

I believe Tile is in this commission as a preemptive measure for upcoming similar service from Apple. If Apple is to proceed with the policies that it used in the past when getting into new services, than Tile will have deep business problems.

You see see the concept of deploying trackers, pairing, all as per user discretion and than forget about it until you need to find your things it’s transformative. All can be done within the boundaries of your phone. Of course if you say pickup you iPad or other device to find the same items, than you need middleware in the Cloud to synch settings.

Personally I believe that unless Apple uses standard comm solutions for its service, Tile is still in big s*. You see, Bluetooth is very energy inefficient. And Apple it’s expected to use a custom solution requiring a different protocol and hardware created by them. A bit like what they did with AirPlay. In that case I’m of the opinion Tile has little basis to complain for several reasons . But they can try.

I like Apple solutions. But as a customer still I would like they were a bit more open, like they did with AirPlay. You see, my all my audio devices are AirPlay enabled. AVR, TV and a couple of speakers, even though I have HomePod. The reason is simple, HomePod is not a good solution for everything audio. By allowing third parties to embed AirPlay (through licensing) it was a good move for Apple customers.

The same they did with HomeKit but it’s kind of stuck because standard protocols already existed in place and Apple has chosen to ignore them. It’s very hard to find HomeKit enabled blinders, I need to resort to kind of a hack to get them on board. Entering a consortium aiming to forge more interop between protocols will be good for Customers as more devices may potentially inteiro with HomeKit without resorting to hacks.

The same with this. Imagine devices coming with the ability to be paired as per upcoming Apple buttons. Say cars, wallets ... so on and so forth ... coming already with the chip integrated. This can all be licensed. Tile could than even offer an hibrid solutions, like speaker manufacturers do, by support AirPlay as well as others.