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What would be the point if/when the UK loses access to the Single Market? Might as well move to the Cayman Islands.



Most member state governments are right wing, including Germany. Your strategic suggestion shows why you are not the CEO of anything. So much emotion and so little logic. Access to the Single Market is the key for Apple.
I don't think you know what RIGHT WING IS - sorry but EUROPE is a socialist paradise that lives off the protection of the USA. What countries do you think are RIGHT WING????
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Then that's Ireland's problem, because Ireland was the one who let Apple get away with the lower tax rates in the first place. Nobody forced the Irish government into doing so, they likely thought that the benefits of attracting so many multinational companies outweighed the drawbacks of collecting lesser tax revenue.

So after all these years of having multinational companies operate in their company, now they try to get the tax revenue back. Notwithstanding the possibility that had the higher tax rate been in place from day one, Apple may very well have opted to not set up shop in Ireland.

Get Ireland to cough up the missing tax dollars, not Apple.

That is 100% correct - Ireland gave a LEGAL deal to Apple - SCREW the overbearing big government socialist in Belgium
 
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The U.K. has not left the EU. They held a non legally binding referendum in which the majority voted to leave the EU.

The process of leaving the EU has not even begun and once it begins will take at least two years.

Also Apple's tax "scheme" only worked because the host country was an EU member. Which allowed them to divert profits to that subsidiary.

So there is no picking a non-EU country in this.

Well the sooner we leave the ****** EU the better, then our government can give Apple a good deal on our own terms, giving jobs to the UK.
 
Well the sooner we leave the ****** EU the better, then our government can give Apple a good deal on our own terms, giving jobs to the UK.
But they can't. What part of this do you not get?
Apple is in Ireland because they have access to the EU and a great tax rate! The UK - or England as it will be soon - will be no good to any company including the ones that are currently there! Lets see how well we do when the entire banking sector jumps ship and knocks 25% off of our GDP..
 
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In its ruling, the EC stated that Apple paid only a 0.005 percent tax on its European profits, but Cook affirmed that Apple is "subject to the statutory rate in Ireland of 12.5 percent," and that the company "paid $400m in taxes in 2014."

So, someone here is telling a massive, bare-face lie. Either the European Commission or Tim Cook.

Surely something as huge as $400,000,000 of tax payments would be very easy to prove?
 
So, someone here is telling a massive, bare-face lie. Either the European Commission or Tim Cook.

Surely something as huge as $400,000,000 of tax payments would be very easy to prove?
400M is not huge over 200B.

Nobody denies they payed that.
 
More like Orchard Inc.

Apple Operations International, the principal Irish holding company for foreign subsidiaries, was not always stateless for tax purposes based on the last filed accounts in Ireland. It stopped paying tax in Ireland from 2006, based on US Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations evidence.

Apple Operations International (AOI) was formerly known as Apple Computer Inc. Limited. The company was incorporated in 1980 as an offshore company with an address at the Cork, Ireland manufacturing facility.


Finfacts had reported in 2004 that Ireland was the world's most profitable country for US corporations, according to analysis by US tax journal Tax Notes. In a study by the journal's Martin Sullivan, it was found that profits made by US companies in Ireland doubled between 1999 and 2002 from $13.4bn to $26.8bn, while profits in most of the rest of Europe fell. In his analysis Sullivan termed Ireland a 'semi-tax haven' for US firms, because firms are involved in real productivity in contrast with locations such as Bermuda.

Src: http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=889957#p889957
Orig Src: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1027802.shtml
 
Well the sooner we leave the ****** EU the better, then our government can give Apple a good deal on our own terms, giving jobs to the UK.

Except Apple would not come without access to the single market. They are not in Ireland strictly for the weather and the low tax rate. The scam does not work without them being in the EU.
 
:rolleyes: Apple didn't make $200B profit in 2014 in Europe.

Who claimed that? Sure you read a good deal about the issue yourself so you know that they not only funnel ALL of their European profits through IrelandCork but also the Middle East, India, Africa, Asia and the Pacific.

In FY2012 approx. 61% of their revenue was generated internationally (meaning in foreign countries).
 
The person I replied to in the post that I quoted.

Where is this number 400M coming from? Is that overall taxes paid? Internationally taxes paid? Taxes paid for European profits? I read the Open Letter by TC and nowhere did he mention a specific number.

"In 2011, for example (according to figures released at US Senate public hearings), Apple Sales International recorded profits of US$ 22 billion (c.a. €16 billion[1]) but under the terms of the tax ruling only around €50 million were considered taxable in Ireland, leaving €15.95 billion of profits untaxed. As a result, Apple Sales International paid less than €10 million of corporate tax in Ireland in 2011 – an effective tax rate of about 0.05% on its overall annual profits." Quote by the EU Ccommission
 
Where is this number 400M coming from? Is that overall taxes paid? Internationally taxes paid? Taxes paid for European profits? I read the Open Letter by TC and nowhere did he mention a specific number.

"In 2011, for example (according to figures released at US Senate public hearings), Apple Sales International recorded profits of US$ 22 billion (c.a. €16 billion[1]) but under the terms of the tax ruling only around €50 million were considered taxable in Ireland, leaving €15.95 billion of profits untaxed. As a result, Apple Sales International paid less than €10 million of corporate tax in Ireland in 2011 – an effective tax rate of about 0.05% on its overall annual profits." Quote by the EU Ccommission
Nice shift of the goalposts. None of that changes the fact that the post that I quoted was comparing 2014 tax payments to Apple's total foreign cash balance -- a decade or so of income.
 
No shifting! :D

Imo it goes back to the MR quote that stated "we paid 400M in 2014". Since I couldn't find that statement in TCs open letter i was just asking where it comes from since the rest of the argument is partly based on this.
 
No shifting! :D

Imo it goes back to the MR quote that stated "we paid 400M in 2014". Since I couldn't find that statement in TCs open letter i was just asking where it comes from since the rest of the argument is partly based on this.

First sentence of OP:
Apple CEO Tim Cook today spoke with Paschal Sheehy, the host of Irish radio showMorning Ireland
 
First sentence of OP:

Thx, but that's as unclear as the quote before. The part "[Apple is] subject to the statutory rate in Ireland of 12.5 percent," is correct of course - only that the profits arriving in Cork aren't all subject to that rate, from the quote it looks like he conveniently forgot about that little detail. See my post above about FY2011 for example. I don't want to listen to a radio show so it's still unclear what the $400m actually represent.

edit: I agree that cube eventually got the numbers mixed up. Although I still side with him ( :D) since from what I read of Cook it's all still quite vague when compared to the direct "accusations". Appl eis the biggest hitter worldwide - so $400M may sound like a huge number but it likely isn't (again, depending on what it is linked to, which at least the quote isn't specifying. The EU Commission was quite frank with some of the EU numbers (e.g. 2011) and I can't see anything what Cook said refute that claim one bit).
 
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I know the numbers were mixed up. 400M is 10% of 4B. Do you think their international profits in 2014 are that small?

A big part of the 200B would be an accumulated untaxed stash and the 400M did not adjust that, that was the point.
 
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Tim Cook has chops, and he's absolutely, 100% right.

If the EU commission has a problem with alleged Ireland state aids, then it should fine Ireland, not Apple.

Obeying the current law should never lead to punishment.
It also depends on how you obtained a state aid....

Are you telling me that if I point a gun at you and you without me asking give me your money i did not rob you?

After all it is legal to have a gun with me, and if the gun is registered, I did nothing illegal....it is you who gave me your money.
 
I know the numbers were mixed up. 400M is 10% of 4B. Do you think their international profits in 2014 are that small?
You are making up irrelevant numbers. We know exactly what their international operating income is by segment. For Europe, it was $14.771B in FY2014. The problem with using this number is that we know that Apple defers payment of taxes on a large percentage of these profits until the money is repatriated to the U.S.
 
Why do you always imply that Apple wants to repatriate said money? They openly and specifically stated otherwise.

I didn't follow the "case" in the last days but I think I read that Tim Cook probably had a possible change of mind lately - certainly that can't be taken into account when talking about what went on in the last decade.
 
Why do you always imply that Apple wants to repatriate said money?
Because leaving money sitting in a stateless corporation isn't a particularly productive use of money. And they've said they want to repatriate it.

They openly and specifically stated otherwise.
Well that's not true. What they said was that the didn't intend to repatriate it at a 35-40% tax rate.

And then more recently as you acknowledged -
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-repatriate-billions-to-us-treasury-next-year
 
Corporations don't pay taxes.... At least that's what I'm told in the US all the time. They scam their way out of taxes as much as they can (something ordinary people can't do, but the rich are really good at) and then they just raise prices so that consumers basically pay the rest.

Just how much do we pay? We pay it out of our income taxes and yet again out of sales taxes. Then we have property taxes (which mean you never really own your land as the moment you can't afford to pay the property tax which can shoot up overnight, you lose it). Have enough money and they'll tax gifts and inheritance yet AGAIN with the gift/estate tax (basically the grubby governments wants to take your money any way they can. They do almost NOTHING for you (can't even keep the roads in good repair) and then effectively take about ONE HALF your income. You don't make $60,000 a year. You make less than $30,000 when all is said and done and sale taxes aren't figured into quoted prices so you still have the balance to pay. Now toss in the cost of health care and the corporate THIEVES working that racket plus insurance costs that pay you nothing and raise your rates just for the hell of it (a speeding ticket finally came off my car insurance, for example and my rate didn't drop $50 a half like it should have; they just raised some others bits so it effectively stayed the same anyway because it's all a LIE. Heaven forbid you ever made an actual claim. They'd still jack your rates up even if you had that "accident forgiveness" clause; they'd just hide it somewhere else).

Small wonder people HATE the government that only listens to lobbied interests (as they pay for their campaigns to stay in power), then when on top of unbelievably wasted spending (let's start another pointless war and give no bid contracts to Haliburton so DICK Cheney's stock can go up some more while our infrastructure crumbles and Congress sits there and does NOTHING all year long and then goes on unbelievably long "breaks" and votes themselves another pay raise while they're at it). And to think that we rebelled against Britain because of a tax on tea? Holy freaking HELL Batman! What the "replacement" government does to us today by comparison would make that tea look like it was free by comparison! It's funny because I didn't see any roads anywhere near as bad as in the US when I was in Britain this year. Prices had taxes already figured in so it was no surprise at the cash register in a given town (some towns in the US have >10% taxes). (take a look at what Europeans really pay compared to the "myths" we have: http://jacksonville.com/interact/bl...care_what_do_people_really_pay_in_europe_f_0#)

So the only real difference between the US and UK is that the US lets our infrastructure rot and spends all that money attacking foreign countries instead and lets the debt pile up. Even with Obamacare (as screwed up as it is), we still don't come close to covering 100% of people like the UK does. Prescriptions are through the roof here. Property taxes are through the roof. And yet we still have this national debt that threatens to destroy the country and "Free Trade" with China with huge imbalances is OK. We don't want a trade war...we just want REAL wars....

I think Apple is probably guilty of everything they say they are because the European Union, as imperfect as it is still sticks up for the consumer while our government has sold us out to the corporate interests completely. Screw Apple. They won't bring money back to the US because they don't want to pay the taxes on it! I have to pay MY taxes whether I like it or not! Why the hell should Apple get the protections of the US without paying their taxes? They use every lobbied loop hole to avoid it (and trying to strike deals with farming countries like Ireland that badly want industrialization are just another method of avoiding them). Of course they're guilty of avoiding taxes. Whether it's "legal" or not is neither here nor there in my mind. The point is that an "honest" person doesn't pay lawyers to find wiggle ways out of paying taxes and shore up money in the Bahamas, but that's what MOST RICH PEOPLE DO and even they are starting to get taken to task for it, but not corporations. They pay nothing (http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/StreetTalk/Fortune-tax-corporate-GE/2015/04/14/id/638367/).

There should be FLAT taxes and NO loop holes. Apple makes ungodly amounts of money by using "sweatshop type" labor in China and then selling the goods back here. Now they want a free trade agreement with Asia so they can avoid any taxes on bringing those goods back. It's ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous that politicians pretend those trade agreements are GOOD for our countries. The concept of FAIR TRADE is utterly beyond them and that's because the people that own stock in the corporations make out like bandits with these agreements while the people in the middle and bottom get screwed by them.

So do I feel sorry for poor richer-than-god Apple? Of course not. Listening to Tim Cook whine about it as if he were paying it out of his own pocket (gee his bonuses might be slightly less so no wonder he's so bitter!) just makes me want to puke. Watching Apple avoid US labor and then push for free trade with China....(excuse me while I hurl).
 
Corporations don't pay taxes.... At least that's what I'm told in the US all the time. They scam their way out of taxes as much as they can (something ordinary people can't do, but the rich are really good at) and then they just raise prices so that consumers basically pay the rest.

Just how much do we pay? We pay it out of our income taxes and yet again out of sales taxes. Then we have property taxes (which mean you never really own your land as the moment you can't afford to pay the property tax which can shoot up overnight, you lose it). Have enough money and they'll tax gifts and inheritance yet AGAIN with the gift/estate tax (basically the grubby governments wants to take your money any way they can. They do almost NOTHING for you (can't even keep the roads in good repair) and then effectively take about ONE HALF your income. You don't make $60,000 a year. You make less than $30,000 when all is said and done and sale taxes aren't figured into quoted prices so you still have the balance to pay. Now toss in the cost of health care and the corporate THIEVES working that racket plus insurance costs that pay you nothing and raise your rates just for the hell of it (a speeding ticket finally came off my car insurance, for example and my rate didn't drop $50 a half like it should have; they just raised some others bits so it effectively stayed the same anyway because it's all a LIE. Heaven forbid you ever made an actual claim. They'd still jack your rates up even if you had that "accident forgiveness" clause; they'd just hide it somewhere else).

Small wonder people HATE the government that only listens to lobbied interests (as they pay for their campaigns to stay in power), then when on top of unbelievably wasted spending (let's start another pointless war and give no bid contracts to Haliburton so DICK Cheney's stock can go up some more while our infrastructure crumbles and Congress sits there and does NOTHING all year long and then goes on unbelievably long "breaks" and votes themselves another pay raise while they're at it). And to think that we rebelled against Britain because of a tax on tea? Holy freaking HELL Batman! What the "replacement" government does to us today by comparison would make that tea look like it was free by comparison! It's funny because I didn't see any roads anywhere near as bad as in the US when I was in Britain this year. Prices had taxes already figured in so it was no surprise at the cash register in a given town (some towns in the US have >10% taxes). (take a look at what Europeans really pay compared to the "myths" we have: http://jacksonville.com/interact/bl...care_what_do_people_really_pay_in_europe_f_0#)

So the only real difference between the US and UK is that the US lets our infrastructure rot and spends all that money attacking foreign countries instead and lets the debt pile up. Even with Obamacare (as screwed up as it is), we still don't come close to covering 100% of people like the UK does. Prescriptions are through the roof here. Property taxes are through the roof. And yet we still have this national debt that threatens to destroy the country and "Free Trade" with China with huge imbalances is OK. We don't want a trade war...we just want REAL wars....

I think Apple is probably guilty of everything they say they are because the European Union, as imperfect as it is still sticks up for the consumer while our government has sold us out to the corporate interests completely. Screw Apple. They won't bring money back to the US because they don't want to pay the taxes on it! I have to pay MY taxes whether I like it or not! Why the hell should Apple get the protections of the US without paying their taxes? They use every lobbied loop hole to avoid it (and trying to strike deals with farming countries like Ireland that badly want industrialization are just another method of avoiding them). Of course they're guilty of avoiding taxes. Whether it's "legal" or not is neither here nor there in my mind. The point is that an "honest" person doesn't pay lawyers to find wiggle ways out of paying taxes and shore up money in the Bahamas, but that's what MOST RICH PEOPLE DO and even they are starting to get taken to task for it, but not corporations. They pay nothing (http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/StreetTalk/Fortune-tax-corporate-GE/2015/04/14/id/638367/).

There should be FLAT taxes and NO loop holes. Apple makes ungodly amounts of money by using "sweatshop type" labor in China and then selling the goods back here. Now they want a free trade agreement with Asia so they can avoid any taxes on bringing those goods back. It's ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous that politicians pretend those trade agreements are GOOD for our countries. The concept of FAIR TRADE is utterly beyond them and that's because the people that own stock in the corporations make out like bandits with these agreements while the people in the middle and bottom get screwed by them.

So do I feel sorry for poor richer-than-god Apple? Of course not. Listening to Tim Cook whine about it as if he were paying it out of his own pocket (gee his bonuses might be slightly less so no wonder he's so bitter!) just makes me want to puke. Watching Apple avoid US labor and then push for free trade with China....(excuse me while I hurl).
That is a classic MagnusVonMagnum "wall of text" rant! Haven't seen one of these in years! :D :D
 
Because leaving money sitting in a stateless corporation isn't a particularly productive use of money. And they've said they want to repatriate it.

Well that's not true. What they said was that the didn't intend to repatriate it at a 35-40% tax rate.

Nope - that was what they were implying. What they officially said was that they use said money to invest in their foreign operations. Real estate and such. Makes sense too since they earn about 60% of their profit not in the US. TBut we two had the very same exchange already - so it seem we can call it a day just as well. :)
 
That is a classic MagnusVonMagnum "wall of text" rant! Haven't seen one of these in years! :D :D

It's not really a "wall" when it's neatly broken up into paragraphs...well unless you compare it to the wall on our Southern border that's broken up into giant holes with a bit of wall here and there. :D
 
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Nope - that was what they were implying. What they officially said was that they use said money to invest in their foreign operations. Real estate and such. Makes sense too since they earn about 60% of their profit not in the US. TBut we two had the very same exchange already - so it seem we can call it a day just as well. :)
I think you are conveniently ignoring their actual actions and stated plans. The amount they've withdrawn for foreign operations is insignificant. (Has there been any?) And they've announced a significant repatriation next year.
 
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