Tim Cook Calls Apple's Irish Tax Avoidance Accusations 'Total Political Crap'

[twietee]

I think you are conveniently ignoring their actual actions and stated plans. The amount they've withdrawn for foreign operations is insignificant. (Has there been any?) And they've announced a significant repatriation next year.

Well, I was going on the released statement Apple made in 2014 when officially questioned. To my understanding they made two statements what they are actually doing with said money (no specific figures were made): a)finance their international operations b)not repatriate said money.

Curious question: what will they do with that pile of money in the US then?

In general: parkin money over that long period of time I'd say one loses all credibilty about what future plans I have regarding taxation. But thats just IMO.

 

[BaldiMac]

Well, I was going on the released statement Apple made in 2014 when officially questioned. To my understanding they made two statements what they are actually doing with said money (no specific figures were made): a)finance their international operations b)not repatriate said money.

...at the current 35-40% rate.

It was a conditional statement. I think that is important to the context of what they said.

 

[tgara]

Curious question: what will they do with that pile of money in the US then?

They will likely pour it into Research & Development. That's what they've done with it historically.

 

[BaldiMac]

They will likely pour it into Research & Development. That's what they've done with it historically.

Probably dividends and stock buybacks in the near term. The make plenty in the Americas to fund R&D.

 

[cube]

You are making up irrelevant numbers. We know exactly what their international operating income is by segment. For Europe, it was $14.771B in FY2014. The problem with using this number is that we know that Apple defers payment of taxes on a large percentage of these profits until the money is repatriated to the U.S.

Ireland does not collect the profits just from Europe, but from around the world.

That's why it seems Australia is helping the EU.

 

[BaldiMac]

Ireland does not collect the profits just from Europe, but from around the world.

That's why it seems Australia is helping the EU.

So?

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either we look at sales from Europe or we look at sales that end up in a stateless corporation. Picking an arbitrary stopping point along the way is meaningless.

Plus, we still don't know what the $400M refers to.

 

[cube]

So?

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either we look at sales from Europe or we look at sales that end up in a stateless corporation. Picking an arbitrary stopping point along the way is meaningless.

Plus, we still don't know what the $400M refers to.

No, it's the US who's trying to eat the cake.

At least a good part of the sales belong to the EU.

And I imagine if somebody else manages to claim something, it will be easier to get it from Ireland than from the US or Apple.

At the worst, Ireland wins this time a lot of needed money thanks to globalization rules. It is easier for USA to have a thriving economy.

 

[tomwvr]

So, someone here is telling a massive, bare-face lie. Either the European Commission or Tim Cook.

Surely something as huge as $400,000,000 of tax payments would be very easy to prove?

Apple took a deal that Ireland gave them - the EU just wants to tell each nation what tax they must charge and then go back years and years to make money they need to try to keep afloat.
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Corporations don't pay taxes.... At least that's what I'm told in the US all the time. They scam their way out of taxes as much as they can (something ordinary people can't do, but the rich are really good at) and then they just raise prices so that consumers basically pay the rest.

Just how much do we pay? We pay it out of our income taxes and yet again out of sales taxes. Then we have property taxes (which mean you never really own your land as the moment you can't afford to pay the property tax which can shoot up overnight, you lose it). Have enough money and they'll tax gifts and inheritance yet AGAIN with the gift/estate tax (basically the grubby governments wants to take your money any way they can. They do almost NOTHING for you (can't even keep the roads in good repair) and then effectively take about ONE HALF your income. You don't make $60,000 a year. You make less than $30,000 when all is said and done and sale taxes aren't figured into quoted prices so you still have the balance to pay. Now toss in the cost of health care and the corporate THIEVES working that racket plus insurance costs that pay you nothing and raise your rates just for the hell of it (a speeding ticket finally came off my car insurance, for example and my rate didn't drop $50 a half like it should have; they just raised some others bits so it effectively stayed the same anyway because it's all a LIE. Heaven forbid you ever made an actual claim. They'd still jack your rates up even if you had that "accident forgiveness" clause; they'd just hide it somewhere else).

Small wonder people HATE the government that only listens to lobbied interests (as they pay for their campaigns to stay in power), then when on top of unbelievably wasted spending (let's start another pointless war and give no bid contracts to Haliburton so DICK Cheney's stock can go up some more while our infrastructure crumbles and Congress sits there and does NOTHING all year long and then goes on unbelievably long "breaks" and votes themselves another pay raise while they're at it). And to think that we rebelled against Britain because of a tax on tea? Holy freaking HELL Batman! What the "replacement" government does to us today by comparison would make that tea look like it was free by comparison! It's funny because I didn't see any roads anywhere near as bad as in the US when I was in Britain this year. Prices had taxes already figured in so it was no surprise at the cash register in a given town (some towns in the US have >10% taxes). (take a look at what Europeans really pay compared to the "myths" we have: http://jacksonville.com/interact/bl...care_what_do_people_really_pay_in_europe_f_0#)

So the only real difference between the US and UK is that the US lets our infrastructure rot and spends all that money attacking foreign countries instead and lets the debt pile up. Even with Obamacare (as screwed up as it is), we still don't come close to covering 100% of people like the UK does. Prescriptions are through the roof here. Property taxes are through the roof. And yet we still have this national debt that threatens to destroy the country and "Free Trade" with China with huge imbalances is OK. We don't want a trade war...we just want REAL wars....

I think Apple is probably guilty of everything they say they are because the European Union, as imperfect as it is still sticks up for the consumer while our government has sold us out to the corporate interests completely. Screw Apple. They won't bring money back to the US because they don't want to pay the taxes on it! I have to pay MY taxes whether I like it or not! Why the hell should Apple get the protections of the US without paying their taxes? They use every lobbied loop hole to avoid it (and trying to strike deals with farming countries like Ireland that badly want industrialization are just another method of avoiding them). Of course they're guilty of avoiding taxes. Whether it's "legal" or not is neither here nor there in my mind. The point is that an "honest" person doesn't pay lawyers to find wiggle ways out of paying taxes and shore up money in the Bahamas, but that's what MOST RICH PEOPLE DO and even they are starting to get taken to task for it, but not corporations. They pay nothing (http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/StreetTalk/Fortune-tax-corporate-GE/2015/04/14/id/638367/).

There should be FLAT taxes and NO loop holes. Apple makes ungodly amounts of money by using "sweatshop type" labor in China and then selling the goods back here. Now they want a free trade agreement with Asia so they can avoid any taxes on bringing those goods back. It's ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous that politicians pretend those trade agreements are GOOD for our countries. The concept of FAIR TRADE is utterly beyond them and that's because the people that own stock in the corporations make out like bandits with these agreements while the people in the middle and bottom get screwed by them.

So do I feel sorry for poor richer-than-god Apple? Of course not. Listening to Tim Cook whine about it as if he were paying it out of his own pocket (gee his bonuses might be slightly less so no wonder he's so bitter!) just makes me want to puke. Watching Apple avoid US labor and then push for free trade with China....(excuse me while I hurl).

The only one talking flat tax in the USA is RAND PAUL. But no one listens to him because he makes too much sense.

Our government is owned by big business, and the only reason that is - the government has way too much POWER and no longer follows the rules set up in the constitution.

 

[twietee]

Our government is owned by big business, and the only reason that is - the government has way too much POWER and no longer follows the rules set up in the constitution.

Hmm, can you help me understand that? How can the government be owned when it became too powerful?

Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that either the government got too weak or, and that would be my understanding, big businesse got way too big so that they can dictate have a strong say in basically everything relevant?

 

[k995]

Apple took a deal that Ireland gave them

Its more likely that apple demanded the deal.

- the EU just wants to tell each nation what tax they must charge and then go back years and years to make money they need to try to keep afloat.

Total and utter BS, EU does not set taxation levels it doesn't even have the power to do this, and the EU will not get a penny of this money to ireland.

 

[BaldiMac]

No, it's the US who's trying to eat the cake.

Because the US is where the value was created. The Apple subsidiaries in various countries are glorified retailers, like Target or Walmart. Do you think that Walmart makes the same profit on an iPhone sale that Apple does?

 

[cube]

Because the US is where the value was created. The Apple subsidiaries in various countries are glorified retailers, like Target or Walmart. Do you think that Walmart makes the same profit on an iPhone sale that Apple does?

The EU competition commisioner clarified that less profit might be assigned to Ireland if the US courts determine the price paid for IP licensing was not fair.

 

[tomwvr]

Its more likely that apple demanded the deal.


Total and utter BS, EU does not set taxation levels it doesn't even have the power to do this, and the EU will not get a penny of this money to ireland.

THE EU said that they must charge a 12.5 percent tax - and that Brussels will get the money not IRELAND that didn't tax apple high enough - what is BS about that?
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Hmm, can you help me understand that? How can the government be owned when it became too powerful?

Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that either the government got too weak or, and that would be my understanding, big businesse got way too big so that they can dictate have a strong say in basically everything relevant?

When the GOVERNMENT acquired far too much power over what it is actually allowed to do under the CONSTITUTION - BIG Business went in and paid off the LAW makers with "donations" to their campaign funds to actually write the laws. If the Government had not ignored the Constituiton business would not have had lawmakers to buy off to write rules that they want.

Look at our senators and congress people they get 2-5 million a year to pay salaries for staff members - these staff members are put in place by big business /lobbyist and they write the laws - our representatives don't write the laws - the staff does.

Then a few years later they go back to the business and make a ton more.

 

[cube]

THE EU said that they must charge a 12.5 percent tax - and that Brussels will get the money not IRELAND that didn't tax apple high enough - what is BS about that?

The EU does not collect taxes.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Look at our senators and congress people they get 2-5 million a year to pay salaries for staff members - these staff members are put in place by big business /lobbyist and they write the laws - our representatives don't write the laws - the staff does.

Then a few years later they go back to the business and make a ton more.

And until we get daily protests against this that garners news attention like BLM or the like, NOTHING will EVER change. Bernie can whine and protest all he wants. Obama is going ahead with the Pacific Trade deal and then Hillary will just say she doesn't have the votes to repeal it in Congress (since let's face it most Republicans LOVE free trade as their money is tied up in the stocks of companies that profit from it while the Middle Class just loses jobs and the country loses taxes). I don't believe for one second Trump or Hillary will do one thing to stop free trade. The concept of FAIR Trade is utterly UTTERLY beyond the politicians concept to grasp (as in letting companies freely bring back goods they make in other countries for a fraction of the labor costs here causes jobs to move wholesale to that other country. The top brass and stockholders make more money (saved labor costs) and we lose jobs and don't even get an import tax on the goods. Worse yet, companies that stay here then have to compete against that country's entire export industry being DUMPED on us below costs (see any articles on Chinese Steel) to put us out of business. It's HORRIBLE.

And yet any economist will tell you Free Trade is GREAT for our country. NO, it's great for corporations that make use of it. It destroyed our manufacturing base and entire industries (e.g. textiles) when we refused to put import duties on those products to make our products competitive. Everybody loves to shop cheap at Walmart, but no one outside the small businesses WalMart puts out of businesses seems to care the destruction they reap. And from what I've seen, WalMart is NOT that much cheaper for groceries than union stores, particularly for name brands (e.g. just try and find Pepsi and Coke on sale at WalMart. They don't put them on sale often because they want you to buy WalMart brands). Service is meaningless these days. They expect you to check your own products out everywhere from WalMart to Home Depot. I avoid these stores when possible. They're not giving me a discount to check my own groceries out. They don't pass along savings from free trade. They keep the prices the same and keep the increased profits and then pat themselves on the back for being the richest people on the planet (e.g. The Waltons) at the cost of everyone else (we have to subsidize those low wages at WalMart with food stamps and other tax giveaways because they can't live on those wages and since all the mom and pop grocery stores are out of business, there's not much else in many towns).

 

[tomwvr]

And until we get daily protests against this that garners news attention like BLM or the like, NOTHING will EVER change. Bernie can whine and protest all he wants. Obama is going ahead with the Pacific Trade deal and then Hillary will just say she doesn't have the votes to repeal it in Congress (since let's face it most Republicans LOVE free trade as their money is tied up in the stocks of companies that profit from it while the Middle Class just loses jobs and the country loses taxes). I don't believe for one second Trump or Hillary will do one thing to stop free trade. The concept of FAIR Trade is utterly UTTERLY beyond the politicians concept to grasp (as in letting companies freely bring back goods they make in other countries for a fraction of the labor costs here causes jobs to move wholesale to that other country. The top brass and stockholders make more money (saved labor costs) and we lose jobs and don't even get an import tax on the goods. Worse yet, companies that stay here then have to compete against that country's entire export industry being DUMPED on us below costs (see any articles on Chinese Steel) to put us out of business. It's HORRIBLE.

And yet any economist will tell you Free Trade is GREAT for our country. NO, it's great for corporations that make use of it. It destroyed our manufacturing base and entire industries (e.g. textiles) when we refused to put import duties on those products to make our products competitive. Everybody loves to shop cheap at Walmart, but no one outside the small businesses WalMart puts out of businesses seems to care the destruction they reap. And from what I've seen, WalMart is NOT that much cheaper for groceries than union stores, particularly for name brands (e.g. just try and find Pepsi and Coke on sale at WalMart. They don't put them on sale often because they want you to buy WalMart brands). Service is meaningless these days. They expect you to check your own products out everywhere from WalMart to Home Depot. I avoid these stores when possible. They're not giving me a discount to check my own groceries out. They don't pass along savings from free trade. They keep the prices the same and keep the increased profits and then pat themselves on the back for being the richest people on the planet (e.g. The Waltons) at the cost of everyone else (we have to subsidize those low wages at WalMart with food stamps and other tax giveaways because they can't live on those wages and since all the mom and pop grocery stores are out of business, there's not much else in many towns).

Bernie is just as bad as the rest of them - will he invite us to his 600,000 dollar home Hillary paid him off with?

And in the grocery business (I manage a union shop) we make 2 cents per dollar of sales - if we run a good store, Employee takes a fake 100 and that means the next 20000 in sales pays for that - and in my store we have taken 5 this year. Cant fire the cashiers, the Union keeps their jobs. The only people that lose these jobs are people that steal or stop showing up for work. Oh and WALMART pays the employees at their stores MORE then the UNION employees make - as new hires..

Also to make money the only thing you can control are labor and self check outs keep the prices from going up because you would need 4 more cashiers making 10 dollars and up an hour to check out the same volume of business, so you are saving on the self check outs. Now I don't like them because all studies show they increase shrink (loss) in the store with improper use and theft

The biggest problem today is CORP taxes - highest in the world and regulations. All this keeps prices high and does not allow american companies any aid in trade. There has to be a balance
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The EU does not collect taxes.

They are collecting the "penalty" for not paying enough taxes ....

 

[cube]

They are collecting the "penalty" for not paying enough taxes ....

The EU is collecting no penalty.

 

[k995]

THE EU said that they must charge a 12.5 percent tax - and that Brussels will get the money not IRELAND that didn't tax apple high enough - what is BS about that?

No thats simply the same BS, EU said apple has had an unfair advantage compared to others. For no reason (like being almost bankrupt) that the EU could see. Ireland can appeal, lower others taxes or yes tax apple the amount it taxes others.

And no the EU WONT GET A PENNY of this. I don't know why this is so hard for some o understand the EU DOES NOT levy taxes on coorporations , it gets most of it funding (fixed amount set years in advance)directly from the EU states.

When the GOVERNMENT acquired far too much power over what it is actually allowed to do under the CONSTITUTION - BIG Business went in and paid off the LAW makers with "donations" to their campaign funds to actually write the laws. If the Government had not ignored the Constituiton business would not have had lawmakers to buy off to write rules that they want.

Pointless rant, ireland agreed to this conditions upon entering the EU and voting for all changes ever since.

Again without taxes we cannot support our society and apple couldn't even do business. Corporations that try to not pay any taxes seem all to have forgotten this.
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The biggest problem today is CORP taxes - highest in the world and regulations. All this keeps prices high and does not allow american companies any aid in trade. There has to be a balance

No its not, its that larger corporations pay less taxes. The avg effective tax rate is around 25% not close to 40% after you deal with all deductions.

They are collecting the "penalty" for not paying enough taxes ....

Wrong again. Apple didn't do anything wrong, no fines.

 

[dewski]

As the old cliche' says, profits are the cost of staying in business. Necessary, I think we are agreed.



It can be. It is certainly gross to love wealth.



No.

I wouldnt s

As the old cliche' says, profits are the cost of staying in business. Necessary, I think we are agreed.



It can be. It is certainly gross to love wealth.



No.

I certainly strive to provide for my family and want to give as little as possible to the government. I don't know why i should expect someone else to act differently. No one but me has a claim to my money because they feel that I have more than someone else.

 

[mazz0]

Except in this case, they are paying the obvious straightforward upfront amount that Ireland asks for.


Gotta love when you demonize people for following the law.

U.S.: If you bring that money to the U.S. you have to pay 35% in taxes.
Apple: Okay, it makes more financial sense for us to keep it overseas until we need it here.

What's the problem?

Gotta love when people think legal and moral are the same thing.

They were not paying the obvious straightforward upfront amount - that's the whole point. They had a special deal. Now I'm not saying they knew it was illegal (at least not at the point the agreement was made - they may have known later that it became illegal), but they worked it out in a deliberate attempt to minimize the amount of tax they pay. Not even Apple denies that.

 

[Huntn]

This is not applicable, but I'll say it anyway. Despite the morality we'd hope the biggest and best companies have, their primary goal is making money , the more the better. If society gives them the loop hole, 99% of the time, they will take it. However, I am 100% against corporations shielding their profits over seas avoiding the responsibility of supporting the society that allowed them to have their great success. It's up to our government, supposedly representing the people to enforce this.

As far as Apple and Ireland, I think the primary issue here is national sovernty as compared to being overruled by the EU. It shows why we have to be very careful when it comes to the idea of any world wide government.

The UN is a great idea, a way for the world to coordinate and interact with each other, but national sovernty is a line that should not be crossed. But I'm ignorant, and assume that part of being a member of the EU is that your country must turn over economic decisions and interpretations of tax law to the authority of the EU?

 

[BaldiMac]

Gotta love when people think legal and moral are the same thing.

I don't think anything of the sort. But with taxes the the amount that you are legally required to pay is the only moral standard. If you disagree, what moral standard are you referring to?

They were not paying the obvious straightforward upfront amount - that's the whole point. They had a special deal.

Once again, there was no special deal. Ireland doesn't tax money made in other countries which gives Apple a convenient place to hold profits that it intends to repatriate to the U.S. They will pay taxes on the money at that point. It's that simple. The profits were never Irish profits. Ireland just allows Apple to defer payment on taxes owed to the U.S. per U.S. law.

Now I'm not saying they knew it was illegal (at least not at the point the agreement was made - they may have known later that it became illegal), but they worked it out in a deliberate attempt to minimize the amount of tax they pay. Not even Apple denies that.

Apple does actually deny that there was a special deal. See Tim Cook's letter.

 

[samcraig]

I don't think anything of the sort. But with taxes the the amount that you are legally required to pay is the only moral standard. If you disagree, what moral standard are you referring to?


Once again, there was no special deal. Ireland doesn't tax money made in other countries which gives Apple a convenient place to hold profits that it intends to repatriate to the U.S. They will pay taxes on the money at that point. It's that simple. The profits were never Irish profits. Ireland just allows Apple to defer payment on taxes owed to the U.S. per U.S. law.


Apple does actually deny that there was a special deal. See Tim Cook's letter.

All I'm going to say is - legal, illegal - to me it matters less than the fact that these laws don't do the American economy many favors. Or maybe it does and I'm not aware of all the nuances. Clearly business get helped by not having to pay these taxes in Ireland - so on one hand, they might thrive (more) with these incentives. However, as a taxpayer in this country - it would quite nice to know that businesses were also contributing their fair share. And by fair - I don't mean what these businesses are doing is illegal. I think you know what I mean.

 

[BaldiMac]

All I'm going to say is - legal, illegal - to me it matters less than the fact that these laws don't do the American economy many favors. Or maybe it does and I'm not aware of all the nuances. Clearly business get helped by not having to pay these taxes in Ireland - so on one hand, they might thrive (more) with these incentives. However, as a taxpayer in this country - it would quite nice to know that businesses were also contributing their fair share. And by fair - I don't mean what these businesses are doing is illegal. I think you know what I mean.

I agree that the U.S. laws aren't helping the American economy. A tax code that makes it more beneficial to do nothing with foreign earnings than to invest it in the U.S. is just silly.

I think I read somewhere that Apple and Samsung pay about the same effective tax rate on foreign income. The difference is that Samsung can bring that money home for nothing. Apple would have to pay 35%. That's ridiculous.

 

[mazz0]

I don't think anything of the sort. But with taxes the the amount that you are legally required to pay is the only moral standard. If you disagree, what moral standard are you referring to?


Once again, there was no special deal. Ireland doesn't tax money made in other countries which gives Apple a convenient place to hold profits that it intends to repatriate to the U.S. They will pay taxes on the money at that point. It's that simple. The profits were never Irish profits. Ireland just allows Apple to defer payment on taxes owed to the U.S. per U.S. law.


Apple does actually deny that there was a special deal. See Tim Cook's letter.

Corporate Tax rate in Ireland: 12.5%
Rate Apple paid: 0.005%

If Ireland doesn't tax profits made elsewhere in Europe then Apple should be paying that tax elsewhere in Europe, but it's not.

Morally, and this is just my personal opinion, as I've said they should simply pay that up front amount. 12.5% in Ireland, but they also shouldn't be locating themselves for legal purposes in the place with the lowest rate. They should be paying most of it in California.