Tim Cook Calls Apple's Tax Avoidance Accusations 'Total Political Crap'

[Dmunjal]

The European Commission is a joke. Apple is a company that makes real products that people buy. Why not go after the banksters, hedge fund managers, and other financial parasites who produce nothing of value, ruin people's lives, and see themselves as above the law and paragons of virtue.

Because the banksters, hedge funds, etc. spend more on lobbying than Apple do.

Apple has done more for the US and global economy than any government has. They have created more wealth for their employees, shareholders, partners, and even customers than any government has.

The amount of jobs created, the amount of productivity and efficiency realized by workers and consumers, and the sales, income, corporate taxes paid completely outweigh any tax that is lost in these so-called "schemes."

And I'm in no way an Apple supporter. I think they make great products but are too expensive.

 

[1458279]

BTW, doesn't Apple have a legal obligation to their share holders to pay the lowest taxes?

The reality is that businesses are NOT started to pay taxes or hire people. They are either to serve their stock holders or the business owners.

Just wait till robots take over most of the jobs and all businesses are headquartered outside the US. That's when the US and it's workers will realize they're really screwed.

Sit back and watch as most people around the world are going to be put out of work by robots and all the governments are crushed under their own debt.

Notice how the government are always looking for more $$$$, they never consider how to do their job with less $$$.

 

[jmpnop]

I support Apple on this, I'm amazed people feel that greedy Government is entitled to 40% of Apple's profits. Apple isn't doing anything illegal and Government shouldn't just ask half of Apple's wealth in taxes, blame the Government before blaming Apple.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Apple avoid Tax in Australia through dodgy loopholes.

Of course its legal, but its not the right thing to do.

Then why don't they change the laws?

Apple will do exactly what the laws say.

But if there's anything extra you think Apple should do... you might wanna make that into a law in order to make them do it.

Otherwise... Apple is gonna do just what they have to do... and you'll be stuck complaining about it... thinking they should do more.

 

[Sheza]

Who decides what's moral? I can tell you right now I wouldn't want most of the people posting in this thread to decide that for me.

I think in the case of tax it's a very simple concept.
You sell stuff in one country you should pay the tax as if you were based in that country.

Because the only reason people came to your store was because the publicly funded road / train / bus etc took them there. The only reason you were able to move stock to your store was because the publicly built road allowed you to. You as an American corporation did not pay to build the road in the UK. Nor did your Irish subsidiary.

And the only reason people buy stuff from your store is because of the publicly funded education that their children get that means they have spare money to spend in your store (other examples are available for those without kids).

Simply put, if it weren't for the public investment, you wouldn't be able to sell and very few people would be able to buy from you even if you could. So do your bit and contribute to the public investment of the country you are in via tax.

Apple may talk about how their presence brings up the local economy wherever they are. Perhaps more shops around their stores get more customers. But what if those shops are paying their fair share of corporation tax? Apple is still in the greedy position.

Then why don't they change the laws?

Apple will do exactly what the laws say.

But if there's anything extra you think Apple should do... you might wanna make that into a law in order to make them do it.

Otherwise... Apple is gonna do just what they have to do... and you'll be stuck complaining about it... thinking they should do more.

'Apple will do exactly what the law says'
'Anything extra they should do'

Your terminology is crap here, mate. Apple doesn't do what the law says plainly and simply. They twist and bend it through a series of off shore subsidiaries and the like. You're acting as though Apple would need to invoke in some complex, additional work in order to pay more tax. That's not the case at all, in fact it would be much more traceable and easier for them to manage if they just paid tax properly, like it was intended, before people discovered loopholes.

Now herein lies the problem: Apple is a publicly traded company. They have a duty to their shareholders to maximise profits by using tax loopholes. We have unrestrained capitalist America to blame for that.

 

[pika2000]

I guess it's easy to paint a target on a hype-able company. I mean seriously, there are other companies that's been doing the same thing for ages. Oh, and don't even look at the politicians themselves, doing money laundering via their NGOs and foundations.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Your terminology is crap here, mate. Apple doesn't do what the law says plainly and simply. They twist and bend it through a series of off shore subsidiaries and the like. You're acting as though Apple would need to invoke in some complex, additional work in order to pay more tax. That's not the case at all, in fact it would be much more traceable and easier for them to manage if they just paid tax properly, like it was intended, before people discovered loopholes.

Now herein lies the problem: Apple is a publicly traded company. They have a duty to their shareholders to maximise profits by using tax loopholes. We have unrestrained capitalist America to blame for that.

Do you hate loopholes? THEN GET RID OF THE LOOPHOLES. Eliminate the reason that thousands of companies set up offices in Ireland or whatever.

You can't blame the wild animals for entering your house when you left the door open.

Also... if Apple broke laws... why aren't they being punished? That's what usually happens.

I have seen enough movies to know that the CEO can be taken away in handcuffs for breaking the law.

 

[mikecorp]

I'm pissed off I have to pay 20% Tax on Apple Products. Where does go 20% ? Goverment spends it on total crap, Government should have business like model, So they earn their own money. I hate elections because nothing changes.
Im paying Tax on House, All connections, anything I buy, Road Tax, CO2 Tax, and If somebody earns more than 100 000 euro a year they tax you additional 20% more. They call it solidarity Tax. Socialists are the worst Santa Claus on the planet.

Who would pay 40% tax to bring money home? You better spend it and make even more money. 800 000 000 for Tax?

Do you hate loopholes? THEN GET RID OF THE LOOPHOLES. Eliminate the reason that thousands of companies set up offices in Ireland or whatever.

You can't blame the wild animals for entering your house when you left the door open.

Also... if Apple broke laws... why aren't they being punished? That's what usually happens.

I have seen enough movies to know that the CEO can be taken away in handcuffs for breaking the law.

Apple pays Tax already here, so why would anyone pay twice?

-Same as if I go shopping to USA, buy a macbook, pay tax in USA, and after in Europe I would have to pay again because of that. All **** comes from China anyways.

 

[AxoNeuron]

Can't really blame Apple for this, they're in a very complicated situation.

My opinion is that if you sell a product overseas, and pay that country's income tax, you should only have to pay a small token tax to repatriate that cash, since you've already paid taxes on it once.

 

[thekev]

Can't really blame Apple for this, they're in a very complicated situation.

My opinion is that if you sell a product overseas, and pay that country's income tax, you should only have to pay a small token tax to repatriate that cash, since you've already paid taxes on it once.

That's similar to the way it works. Companies pay taxes on the difference between taxes paid in another country and their marginal rate. There are additional details related to filings in other countries and exchange rates and other annoying things, which may affect this.

It gets a little more complicated with larger companies. They can afford to play shell games. Starbucks was scrutinized for this a while ago, specifically because they were playing with their transfer pricing. They were overpaying subsidiaries for IP and coffee beans so that their operations in certain countries would operate at a loss on paper.

It's not always as straightforward as it seems.

Amazing how many feel entitled to the labors of others. I dare any of you to earn a fortune and then hand over 40% to the Fed when there are tax loopholes that will help you avoid it. It's unreasonable and you'd be daft not to exploit those loopholes. Any of you would do the same.

You already know those numbers are fabricated and incorrect, so why are you using them? The top marginal rate is 35%. Assuming it was taxed in another country, it should be (roughly) 35% - tax paid in other country. They should never pay anything above that percentage. Some countries have lower corporate rates but credit fewer things. Next time try not to spread bad information. The internet already has enough nonsense.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

There is no such thing as an immoral and legal tax strategy. There are no "morals" involved in paying your taxes legally.

There are in the UK, and there is now a moral dimension to the legality of tax schemes.

We have aggressive tax avoidance, which is deemed illegal. That means that if a person or business takes advantage of a legal means to avoid tax that is against the spirit of the law, he or it may be prosecuted. Ideally, those legal loopholes wouldn't exist, but this is a compromise.

Just think how many times in a day we, on a personal level, make decisions that can be legal but morally wrong. It is often up to us to police ourselves. But when corporations lose their sense of moral compass, it is necessary for the government to step in, as they are effectively being defrauded to the tune of billions of dollars by big business.

Sheza's comment above was excellent. It is easy to get frustrated with the Machiavellian tax laws and demand that loopholes are closed, but I suspect that if it were that easy, it might have already happened. The structure of the EU is to blame, I feel, in treating the whole of the EU as one block, yet preserving national tax laws. This is a fundamental flaw; you cannot have a single currency without a federal state. Hence, the abuses we see by Apple and other corps. I don't believe England will ever want to be part of a federal state, which is why we want to leave the EU, as that is the only successful outcome of the EU. As it is made up of so many different countries, I don't think they will ever agree to a federal union, which dooms the EU to failure.

Cook's hypocrisy is especially risible, as he claims Apple want to leave the world a 'better place than they found it'. We all know he's talking about his petty and pointless social activism, yet his hypocrisy is double: he freely does business with China and Russia because he 'follows the money' as he likes to say in the quarterly earnings, despite their support for social mores wholly opposed to Cook's. And he gets on his high moral stance about accessibility—'It's not about the bloody ROI'—when it suits him, but not when it suits the welfare of countries.

In other words, blind people are worth paying more tax for, but government isn't.

All of this could have been avoided if Apple chose to pay tax for the countries in which their products were purchased, which is where their huge profits were really made, and if Cook had not made Apple a vessel for his personal political views. We can see how Jobs was wise to keep focused on Apple and almost never be distracted by political matters. He would have still had the problems of tax, but I feel sure he would have dealt with this matter in a better way.

 

[Juicy Box]

The US corporate tax should be reduced to stay competitive in the world. The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, if it was lower, more corporations would want to stay in the US, and by doing so, that revenue would stay in the US.

It is the same reason people in the US get pissed off when members of their favorite sports team goes to teams in states with lower taxes.

 

[Eraserhead]

So let me get your point. Apple is 67% international and you are saying they should act accordingly.

I agree.

From a US perspective - yes. But they should also pay their fair share of taxes everywhere else they operate.

Immoral is subjective and based on perspective of the world.

Apple isn't breaking the law - they are doing their very best to make as much money within the laws for shareholders as possible. As a USA company - that is their responsibility - you guys understand that right?

Most of you don't realize you're just in your feelings like woman.

No large company breaks the law. But when (say) Facebook pays less UK tax than I do you know something's wrong.

 

[odedia]

No, their offsea account is a shell account. They use this account only to say they earned money there to take advantage of the lower tax rate. It's legal but they are not paying their fair share.

I (unbelievably) watched the entire testimony before congress. All money that is made in the US is paid for 100%. All money that is made overseas is registered under the Irish subsidy. I think it's fair. Apple is a global company, more global than American for a long time now. If the American people want the international money they should provide incentives just like any other country. I can tell you that in my country Intel is paying 0% tax as an incentive to setup a new factory here. The benefits are greater than the cost.

 

[Eraserhead]

I (unbelievably) watched the entire testimony before congress. All money that is made in the US is paid for 100%. All money that is made overseas is registered under the Irish subsidy. I think it's fair. Apple is a global company, more global than American for a long time now. If the American people want the international money they should provide incentives just like any other country. I can tell you that in my country Intel is paying 0% tax as an incentive to setup a new factory here. The benefits are greater than the cost.

How is that fair on, say, China?

I can tell you that in my country Intel is paying 0% tax as an incentive to setup a new factory here. The benefits are greater than the cost.

If moved to your country but promised to spend all my money on goods produced there could I pay 0% tax as the benefits would be greater than the cost?

 

[bingeciren]

Let's put it this way:

You're an American citizen who works and lives in another country. You pay income tax to that country because you live there. The US government also wants to tax you on that income because you're an American citizen. That's for real and they try to apply it to corporations in the same situation. You EARNED that income from working in another country and paid their income tax so why is the US trying to tax you again???? It's just wrong.

That is a fact, and most US citizens, unless they have been informed because they live and work outside the US, are unaware of. In fact, at a personal level, it is worse than Apple's case because whether you bring your money back to US or not, you are still being taxed both at the country where you earn your money and the US as well.

There are many advantages of NOT being a US citizen from a tax point of view, especially if you do business outside the US. People should read about the reason behind Facebook's co-founder Eduardo Saverin renouncing his US Citizenship.

I may criticize Apple for many things, but in this case I absolutely agree with Tim.

 

[FieldingMellish]

Cook, all the while making public statements where he and Apple stand in the world politically, unhappy with exposure of Apple's dirty underbelly, stands there with hands on his hips, declaring, "Total political crap!"

 

[jaymzuk]

Right because we know our government would totally do the right thing.

So basically Government is to blame?

They can't win if they close loopholes because that's effectively a tax increase
They can't win if they don't close the deficit

Yet the widespread assertion that I get from US politics is that taxes are bad and low taxes means everyone will prosper and pay their fair share. Good luck with that BS

 

[FieldingMellish]

So basically Government is to blame?

They can't win if they close loopholes because that's effectively a tax increase
They can't win if they don't close the deficit

Yet the widespread assertion that I get from US politics is that taxes are bad and low taxes means everyone will prosper and pay their fair share. Good luck with that BS

Not "everyone will prosper", but more people will be employed, some earning more than others, and the entirety by its nature leads to more taxes being collected by the multiplicity of means inherent in American taxation across the board.

 

[numlock]

This is total gibberish. I have no idea what you are trying to say or what concept you are attempting to portray.

interesting. you repeat something that a lot of people do. i asked if you knew of a clear example of company executives that faced consequences for not using every possible method of maximising shareholders value. its a very clear and concise question.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

These loopholes were legal bribes, by corporations to convince/coerce the Congress to add them into the tax codes. They know they are designed to dodge taxes they like any other ``Person'' is obligated to pay. They bribed/lobbied Congress as a Personhood [thanks Supreme Court in the 30s] to get this done.

They did the same with the EU and elsewhere. In short, these companies are nation-less factions that pay zero to no taxes as much as possible, globally. It's criminal, but legal.

Congress has no spine to undue the damage, until the GOP is out of power.

 

[MH01]

Yeah, yeah. Nice cop out.

Took 10 seconds. Seriously there are so many articles explaining it , choose any.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway...bout-apples-tax-avoidance-how-ordinary-it-is/

 

[numlock]

The issue of repatriation is a very good one, but I think the focus on Apple is the wrong way to approach it. If there is one company that actually honors their tax commitment to the intent of the law, it's Apple. They are an easy target (and most likely PR target of Oil/Gas companies) because they have a ubiquitous product.

I'm more interested in what war-machine companies pay in corporate taxes while also receiving US government tax dollars. Halliburton was the tip of the iceberg in this regard. Boeing, Koch, etc are war-profiteering companies that collect government subsidies AND government contracts AND refuse to repatriate oversea tax dollars -- all the while causing death and destruction and pollution around the globe.

Apple also seems to be the most transparent in terms of human rights/labor and environmental impact. Of course, they can always do better and should. However, the focus on Apple in these issues seems absurd when you have companies double and triple dipping the US economy while causing unrecoverable havoc to peoples and the environment.

I also think a closer look at tax loopholes by big Pharma should be examined. These companies get away with so much R&D tax evasion while generating huge profits on the backs of sick people is truly immoral.

now you are confusing multiple issues that are not related (not that i disagree with any of them). although not on the scale of the companies you mention apple has some contracts with the defense department. then you could ask ponder is it right for apple to sell to those that are double and triple dipping?

how is apple most transparent in terms of labour and environmental impact?

 

[RobertMartens]

Immoral?

Screwing your brother's wife is immoral.
Stealing money from your child's piggybank is immoral.
Strangling your sister is immoral.

This is far from immoral.

I beg to differ on the third example. She had it coming. She only had herself to blame
If you'd have been there, if you'd have heard it. I betcha you would have done the same.

 

[numlock]

The US corporate tax should be reduced to stay competitive in the world. The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, if it was lower, more corporations would want to stay in the US, and by doing so, that revenue would stay in the US.

It is the same reason people in the US get pissed off when members of their favorite sports team goes to teams in states with lower taxes.

it dosent work like that. there is no way in competing with a delaware or an ireland or even replicating that on a larger scale especially if you want taxes to provide for something.

the problem becomes even bigger when you realise that wealth is being hoarded and dosent move through the economy.