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How do you define or determine what is expected? Expected means what? It seems to me you think what Apple is doing should be illegal. If that's the case your beef should be with politicians not Apple. Apple's responsibility is to its shareholders not public governments.

How on earth do you do your taxes mate? You don't know how much tax you should pay? I really hope you know what tax rate your on, based on your salary! I assume you have done a tax return....soooooo....you know what is expected, as its based on earning, and the tax rate your fall under, minus any tax free threshold, and deductions/losses etc.

No, don't twist it, I never ever said its illegal, ever. Its Tax AVOIDANCE - Legal. My whole issue is Tim being a Hypocrite, first to support Gay rights, Environment, Equality, in the work place etc etc, always having the morally right opinion supporting these causes. These social issues/Agendas need funding, he can shove his free advice!

Apple can avoid tax, like many corporations do, its for the law makers to close these loopholes, tax enforcement is a cat and mouse game. My beef here is Tim and the faithful followers on MR, that cant even accept that Apple is involved in Tax Avoidance. If it was Microsoft or Google etc, and it is, you all would be bashing them. The Hypocrisy mate....the hypocrisy.

I'm not a US citizen, buy find it really funny how the Americans are defending Apple on this forum, money back to "your" infrastructure and communities "you are" missing out on. lol

Still can bring your self to Accept Tax Avoidance exits eh..... cause Apple is implicated in it.... wow!
 
I think @thewitt lives in Malaysia or something so he certainly knows the situation there.

But even in the UK it sounds like you have to file your taxes by mid-June even with an extension and interest from April, even though you can't realistically fill in your self-assessment for tax in the UK until around the end of June.

That link was just an example. Plenty of US citizens on this thread have explained the scenario, they are all required to lodge tax returns, but will not be Taxed twice on the same earnings, you may need to pay the difference. The double tax agreement means US and other countries share data, so you cannot hide your earnings.
 
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it seems you concept of moral is for some reason connected with what other people and companies do. its not a complicated concept that if you or your patrons make use of public services/utility that you pay your share. going to these lengths (obviously exposing lack of foresight or possible negligence in the law) to avoid paying your share is immoral in my mind.

so lower the tax rate for profit, repatriated profit and all will be well? if the tax burden shifts entirely to the employees (thats how i get your post) their cost of living goes up quite a lot and there will always be some country/people willing to work for less.

this race to the bottom thinking only suits those with extreme wealth and pandering to them is a lost cause.

Hummm.... it's the same thinking I use when I do my personal taxes? Minimizing your taxes and taking all deductions possible within the law is hardly immoral.

There's not a company out there that does not try and reduce their corporate income taxes as much as possible.

Also... yes... lower the tax rate on corporations for profit... so they can invest their profit in more business... more jobs. It's not a race to the bottom... it's a way to grow the economy. Yeah... does it shift the tax revenue to the employee? Sure... but each of those income tax paying employees are buying things, and living a productive life.
 
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Little side note. Basically no other country in the world attempts to tax overseas income as aggressively as the U.S. Under the tax rules of other countries, if your China subsidiary produces a product which then gets shipped to Japan and sold there for a profit, then you only pay taxes in China and Japan. You don't pay taxes again when you bring the profit home to the the headquarters company. But the U.S. is different.

However avoiding or delaying the payment of these U.S. taxes isn't necessarily a sophisticated scheme. In many ways it is just ordinary business which Congress clearly expects U.S. companies to do. The IRS audits Apple in detail every year and probably has a team of auditors who do nothing but audit Apple on an ongoing and continuous basis. If Apple missteps it will be caught. But it hasn't done anything afoul of the rules so far. I don't believe the team of IRS auditors have missed anything.
 
This arguments saying Apple is wrong here are just stupid and if you think Apple is immoral or doing something illegal, or trying to cheat the system, you need to go take some economic and business finance courses.

Bottom line.... Companies are in the business of making money and keeping as much as they can within the laws out there. All companies do this. Also... these "greedy" companies are the same companies that creates jobs and keep the economy churning. Taxing the hell out of corporations just reduces their ability to invest in new products, or more employees.

Personally, I'm trilled the "greedy little company" I work for did a great job in generating record sales this year. Now I'm getting over 100% payout on bonus this year because of it and a nice raise. It all trickles downhill right into my pocket
 
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How do you define or determine what is expected? Expected means what? It seems to me you think what Apple is doing should be illegal. If that's the case your beef should be with politicians not Apple. Apple's responsibility is to its shareholders not public governments.

So, blame the teacher if students are cheating? Blame the refs if a football team does something behind the scenes? Got it.

If the government closed loopholes, you'd see the right rioting about "punishing success".

That being said, I can agree that 35-40% is too high for corporate tax, but I'm flabbergasted at how many people, who portray themselves as brilliant economic masters, don't understand that these companies do not get double-taxed fully by both countries. Just as state taxes I pay to another state get deducted from my home state taxes.
 
So, blame the teacher if students are cheating? Blame the refs if a football team does something behind the scenes? Got it.

If the government closed loopholes, you'd see the right rioting about "punishing success".

That being said, I can agree that 35-40% is too high for corporate tax, but I'm flabbergasted at how many people, who portray themselves as brilliant economic masters, don't understand that these companies do not get double-taxed fully by both countries. Just as state taxes I pay to another state get deducted from my home state taxes.

Companies do get double-taxed if they return their foreign earnings to America.
 
I think @thewitt lives in Malaysia or something so he certainly knows the situation there.

But even in the UK it sounds like you have to file your taxes by mid-June even with an extension and interest from April, even though you can't realistically fill in your self-assessment for tax in the UK until around the end of June.
i filed both UK and US taxes for many years and you get Federal tax credit for any tax paid in the uk. You do not get state credit but then if you are living overseas you do not file state returns. In my case i was living in the US but filing both UK and US tax returns because I had income in both places.
 
Cook: “It would cost me 40% to bring it home, and I don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to do."

Tim wouldn't bring it home at 30%, at 20%, probably even at 15%.

---- FROM HERE: http://www.cultofmac.com/391316/apple-dodges-tax-bill/ ----

Apple is holding more cash overseas than any other corporation in the U.S. and it’s paying off big time by helping the company avoid an estimated $59.2 billion tax bill.

Of course, Apple’s not alone in holding massive amounts of cash overseas. A new study released today found that the 500 largest companies hold more than $2.1 trillion in profits offshore to dodge paying U.S. taxes. Collectively, the companies would owe an estimated $620 billion if they repatriated the funds.

Apple currently holds $181.1 billion offshore in three overseas tax havens. The study says the iPhone maker would owe an estimated $59.2 billion.

Other companies holding massive amounts of cash offshore include Microsoft with $108.3 billion in five tax haven subsidiaries. General Electric has $119 billion in 18 tax havens, while drug company Pfizer has $74 billion in 151 subsidiaries.

Instead of bringing the cash back to the US and paying taxes, Apple has repeatedly decided to borrow money to pay for things like its stock buyback program. Tim Cook has publicly commented on the high US tax rate saying it’s not a viable option for businesses, and that the US needs to restructure its corporate tax code.​
 
No large company breaks the law. But when (say) Facebook pays less UK tax than I do you know something's wrong.
That's a fallacy. The base tax rate is about the same, but the behavior is quite different. They reinvest in servers, people, facilities and expendables. You spend your income on daily living expenses that do not have tax deductions. It is fair because the behavior they have is good for the economy generally, and others besides themselves. Your behavior is largely self-centered.
 
That's a fallacy. The base tax rate is about the same, but the behavior is quite different. They reinvest in servers, people, facilities and expendables. You spend your income on daily living expenses that do not have tax deductions. It is fair because the behavior they have is good for the economy generally, and others besides themselves. Your behavior is largely self-centered.

Are you seriously trying to justify a profitable $100 billion company paying the same amount of UK tax as a single person at roughly the 10th percentile? Seriously?

That also means the company my management company pays to do our communal gardening pay more UK tax than Facebook - that's outrageous.
 
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Are you seriously trying to justify a profitable $100 billion company paying the same amount of UK tax as a single person at roughly the 10th percentile? Seriously?

That also means the company my management company pays to do our communal gardening pay more UK tax than Facebook - that's outrageous.
Of course! For the reasons I stated, they reinvest in servers, people, facilities and expendables. You spend your income on daily living expenses that do not have tax deductions. Apparently the taxing authorities agree with that and not with you. :D

You want those benefits? Start a small business and discover all the wonderful deductions you will receive. It works. Or deposit the maximum amount of your retained earnings in tax favored investments such as low income housing and qualified plans. It works.
 
Of course! For the reasons I stated, they reinvest in servers, people, facilities and expendables. You spend your income on daily living expenses that do not have tax deductions.

All of which come before profits which companies are taxed on.

Apparently the taxing authorities agree with that.

I don't think they do actually, just they can't afford to pay their staff as much as Facebook.
 
You want those benefits? Start a small business and discover all the wonderful deductions you will receive. It works.

The people I know who run small businesses pay a similar amount of tax I do.

Or deposit the maximum amount of your retained earnings in tax favored investments such as low income housing and qualified plans. It works.

I'm not really clear on how I can stop paying PAYE income tax by doing that...
 
Amazing how many feel entitled to the labors of others. I dare any of you to earn a fortune and then hand over 40% to the Fed when there are tax loopholes that will help you avoid it. It's unreasonable and you'd be daft not to exploit those loopholes. Any of you would do the same.

If the top 1% can avoid paying their fare share of taxes, why can't corporations? Congress can change both but won't!
 
Amazing how many feel entitled to the labors of others. I dare any of you to earn a fortune and then hand over 40% to the Fed when there are tax loopholes that will help you avoid it. It's unreasonable and you'd be daft not to exploit those loopholes. Any of you would do the same.

I don't think they do actually. I certainly take advantage of the things governments make easy (like tax free savings) but I don't think everyone pretends to live in Jersey.
 
You are a political agitator not a factual thinker, thus I am done with that. I have posted the actual facts the best I see them and experience them as a business owner. YMMV.

What's your businesses profit then for FY14? And what's the change in the value of your assets from the start of FY14 to the end?

And how much corporation tax did you
pay?
 
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Apple employs thousands in Ireland. What do you think they do? Try some research. If it was a shell, and not their Operations for the region, then the offices would be empty. They do real work, and you are insulting those hard workers by claiming otherwise with ZERO evidence

apple.jpg
 
I'm going to have to side with Apple, Inc. on this one. Why let America TAX apple for all their revenues? Screw that. All those billions will just fill up those snake politician wallets. America cannot even understand how to budget anything financially. Trillions in debt and it just gets worse. Why let the USA have all that cash money. It's like throwing money in the lake.

I prefer the analogy of burning money in a garbage can to stay warm, but I concur
 
I prefer the analogy of burning money in a garbage can to stay warm, but I concur

I'd have thought the majority of US government spending goes on the wages of teachers, policemen, soldiers etc or on direct benefits like social security. That money generally isn't wasted.
 
And yet I bet you complain about the local facilities, state of the roads and probably don't even think twice about your daily comute to work , and how much of the services and infrastructure is funded by taxes. So care to explain why YOU should pay less than those others that subsidise your life style? Cause you are special ? Why should your next door neighbor pay his share for the same services you use , and you dodge your share.... Cause morally you use it less, knowing you avoided some taxes.....no! It's all about me , me, myself , and I eh?

People who avoid tax and lecture others on morals are the biggest hypocrites.

Go ahead, do it for greed, and to benefit yourself but don't BS how it's morally right !

The universal issue in this debate is selfish people who pretend tax avoidance is thier right cause they are educated and have the resources to exploit it.... And that the whole problem is the government. First world problems!

Call a spade a spade!

I stated earlier, I don't care that apple is using tax avoidance , thier choice to maximize profit, I care about Tim Cook pretending he and apple care about injustice, social issues , sexism , racism etc, and the hypocrite avoids tax that would find government initiatives to support these issues. Just shut up, stop pretending, and focus on shareholder revenue , cause that's what it's all about.

Wow! What a load of BS. Your argument that avoiding excessive taxes somehow makes someone's efforts to help better social issues is a typical liberal non-sequitur. Like somehow the government is going to suddenly start using money wisely to fix issues it hasn't fixed in over 50 years using more and more of its citizenry's money. The government "initiatives" you speak of to support issues such as "injustice and social issues" have been in place for decades, and in most cases the government's involvement has made the issues worse than they are now.

You come from the very naive place of believing that those taxes are actually being put to good use. Let me clue you in: They're not.

As far as my "local facilities" and "state of the roads" I have no major complaints. If the money were spent on that, and police, fire and garbage it would be fine. But I also know that a large percentage of my tax dollars are spent by government bureaucrats who have no clue how to use the money efficiently.

I understand the benefits of taxation, when managed correctly. And I have no problem with paying my fair share. But the fact is that over 40% of my annual income goes toward taxes in some form or another. We're talking about an amount in excess of $50,000 annually.

And the IRS, Congress and the Administrations of various president have, through political cronyism, power hungry greed and ineptitude developed a completely perverted system over the decades, in which the only way to protect yourself from never ending and ever increasing government taking is to familiarize yourself with their absurd and twisted set of rules, use them to protect yourself when possible.

And your casting some sort of moral judgment on my using my own intelligence and diligence to legally maximize my return on my money is ridiculous, if not infuriating. Do you feel the same liberal guilt about your having educated yourself and worked hard to make your lot in life better than your neighbor's, so that you can have a bigger house or better car?

If governments, all governments would be willing to toss out the giant perverted mess that our "progressive" taxing systems have become, and tax everyone at a flat rate no matter how much money they make I would gladly write my check and "do my part." But that will never happen, because there is no political motivation to do so. So until then I will use the laws as they're written to protect my interests. If you choose not to do that out of some sense of obligation to your masters, be my guest.

I'll give you credit, though. At least you're not hiding your true beliefs. At least you're clear that you are a complete, unapologetic socialist, and you're not hiding behind the cloak of lies that most socialists hypocritically put in front of themselves. There's no doubt where you stand. You would just as soon the government get to tell me what and how much I need to live on, and take the rest. "Damn the rule of law. I decree you have too much money, and you need to be more generous to those around you. So I declare you a cheat and will fine you."
 
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