Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The grade is the outcome of someone's work effort.
"If you earn $100,000 however, then you didn't build that by yourself."

What makes you sure someone didn't earn the $100,000 without the aid of the government?

No one made their money in a vacuum. No one. Not one person has made their money without any outside influence of any sort. Whether that be the use of public infrastructure to move their product, other companies to provide them with the products and services they needed to be successful, or the employees to do the work. To say otherwise is to be intensionally obtuse.

Where to you get your info about the national debt?

Are you just tolling for fun or do you have some facts. I'd like to see the facts about the national debt not being at a new high.

Not sure what he's referring to, but it should be noted that that national debt in current dollars barely changed for over 30 years after WW2 until Reagan got into office. Then it started going up. And it doubled by the time he was out of office. It continued to grow through Bush 1. Clinton came in and it leveled off, then started decreasing. It started growing again under Bush, with a sharp rise at the end of his term. Since Obama came in, it has started leveling off. But yes, it does appear to be at its highest level. But it's not something that suddenly happened after Obama came into office.

usgs_line.php


Now, if you want to look at it as a percentage of GDP, the debt was indeed much higher in the mid 40s around WW2. It declined sharply until Reagan changed things and started increasing it sharply (up 20% during Reagan, and another 10-12% during Bush 1). It went down quite a bit during Clinton, rose sharply during Bush 2 (30%), and has leveled off since Obama came into office, and even gone down in the past year or two (topping off at about a 17% rise, as it was already sharply increasing when he started). In the past three years, the national debt is only up about 2% per GDP.

usgs_line.php



What was the poverty rate before the war on poverty?

This article shows the level dropping sharply after the war on poverty started in 1964. From 19% down to 11% in ten years (was previously well over 20%). Since then, the rate has fluctuated between 12-15.5%. According to this report by the US Census, the poverty level currently is about the same as it was in 2009. This report by the census has a much longer graph on page 12. The poverty rate rose somewhat during Bush, and has leveled off and started dropping under Obama.

We have a homeless crisis in LA, SF, NY, and HI. Several have declared a state of emergency.
I'd like to see your stats on homeless vets.

According to this report by end homelessness.org (who I wouldn't think would pad numbers in a positive light), homelessness has dropped almost every year for the past 7 years. And that's in real numbers. Add in population increases, and the rate drops more significantly. The numbers for vets show 74,050 homeless vets in 2009, and 49,933 now. That's a drop of over 30%. This report from HUD also has some data.

I wasn't aware that dropping the national homeless rate by 10% meant we were in a crisis. By the way, declaring a state of emergency in many areas is a maneuver to be able to use funds more easily, not necessarily that they are experiencing extreme homelessness. Homelessness is down some 30% in LA County in the last ten years, although up a few percentage points in the past five. In San Fran, it's stayed pretty much the same in the past ten years. NYC has indeed seen a large rise in homeless in recent years, but with the cost of living up there, you're going to see that. Hawaii has seen about a 20% rise, almost all attributable to Oahu. But seriously...you're on a small island thousands of miles from mainland. Unlike on the mainland US, people in search of work can't just go 100 miles to the next town, or head to another state with better opportunities. It requires an expensive flight, amongst other huge moving expenses, many of which aren't applicable to a mainland move.

So, yeah.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eraserhead
Okay I'll bite on your last question. Yes. If you are not responsible enough to control your reproductive habits, then guess what? When you show up for your welfare check you also get a depo shot. You also take a drug test. Welfare is to offer a hand up, not a hand out. The intent it to provide you with financial assistance until you can go it alone, not become a depend of the state.

Then, shouldn't all executives of corporations who receive handouts be sterilized as well? You know, let's be fair here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eraserhead
We really shouldn't worry too much about this. 75% of the people in American are paycheck to paycheck. All it'll take is one more bubble popping and it'll all come crashing down. The US debt load is too high, it'll never be paid back. The producers will use the TPP to setup businesses outside the US and any work needed to be done here will be done with robots. The value of human labor will be near zero.

Most of the world lives on less that $2/day, America is going to get a harsh dose of the reality of the system they've built.

Its going to be a tough lesson in economics.

And, sadly, most conservatives seem to want to make this system even worse than it is now instead of going back to the ideals that worked. Yeah, you lower most wages, send extreme wealth to a few people, cut taxes to the people who would pay the most...yeah, you've ****ed yourself, right in the ol' piehole.

America's economic system is a failure, but I bet it's for the opposite reasons you believe. I guess "The Greatest Country In The World" isn't really at all. Sadly, the ones who stand to benefit from the country crashing seem to support the idea. As in, guys who write routines for robots....
 
The point is that take from the system without even trying to give back. While some of us are ambitious, others are layabouts. We force the ambitions to pay the layabouts to layabout, yet we go to very expensive ends to offer equality of services. Some skip school and rob houses, while other study hard and have great ambitious have to pay for that.
We can't force people to do something with their lives, but why should we have to suffer because of their choices?
I didn't mind that others cheated on tests and wasted their lives, I do mind that their right to do so is costing others that want to do great things with their lives. They choose to become layabouts because they don't want to work.
These are the same people that use shame to make people feel bad about having worked hard.

The reason she had 15 kids is exactly the issue. She is using the kids to get money. How is that different from me becoming a pimp? She's a pimp, the kids are being used to game the system.

It's interesting that some see Apple as gaming the system, yet defend someone with 15 kids as just fine. It was her choice, if she gets away with it, others will do the same thing.

As to debt, you really don't understand economics. You say it would be irresponsible? Really? So it could be done and it would work?
We could print a 100 trillion dollar bill for everyone on earth every day and that would work? Do you know what happened to Zimbabwean dollar is printed with a face value of 100 trillion!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar

Do you even understand what you said? "Full faith and credit" ?? That means it's value is based on the perceived ability to repay or at least service the debt. Greece _CAN_ go back to it's own currency, it was clearly an option that was on the table.
Debt has at least two sides
1. access to credit (someone willing to loan you the money)
2. your ability to service the debt.

Printing your own money only takes care of one of those. Do you really think that China would be willing to buy 100 trillion dollars of US debt? Who's going to purchase these TBills? What would the rate be?

It's clear that you have the r selection gene and little or no frontal lobe development.

Did you even bother to read what I said about the "historically average interest rates" ??

This is simple math here. Take out a calculator, push the buttons, get the answer... What is the historic average interest rates?

Proper budgets from Washington ??

How much of the budget do you think is discretionary?

What kind of answer is "I don't know. That's up to Chicago to fix." Did you not read the part about Detroit? ... It's been 50 years... 50 YEARS and Detroit is STILL not fixed .... Clue: It's NOT FIXABLE... They're BROKE and it's getting worse all the time. They have NOTHING to offer the world, it's over for them.

Your theory is that the US can't go bankrupt because it's "too big to fail" and it currency is too widely used... complete hogwash. Do you not remember the global meltdown of 08?
The US paper dollar has whatever value people give it.

Do you not understand what the Fed does? Do you not understand why they don't raise interest rates back to normal? Do you understand hyper inflation?
How much US debt was wiped out in the 1867 reconstruction?

Fiat currency is just a way for people to store the results of their gains, they can use BitCoin if they wanted to, it's just a storage device. If it fails to hold it's value, people will dump it. This is why Greece didn't go back to their old currency, they didn't have the ability to support it.

Wow, it's hard for me to imagine that you actually think the way you do. Are you kidding or do you actually think that way?
If what you said were true, why wouldn't the government just print enough money to end poverty and give it to the poor people?

You've actually studied economics?

Paying taxes at this point really has little point, the ship is sinking, no need to paint a sinking ship. The US is the only nation on earth that double taxes it's people, the businesses see the writing on the wall and are preparing for the fail. That's why we have a global slowdown and it's not going away easy. You have a simplistic view of how things work, if it were so easy, why hasn't it worked. This has been the slowest recovery ever. This recover is worse at the 7 year mark when compared to the great depression and that was a crappy recovery that ended in WWII.

As far as splitting the nation, you seem to forget they would print their own money. The value of that money would be based on the ability to repay and service it. They would be starting with a functional system, meaning they already have a form of government and can collect their own taxes. It's really an issue of them generating work. States like California and Texas have a larger economy that most nations, they'd no longer pay federal taxes so they can not only print their own money but can tax at whatever rate they want.

How many nations have had a revolution? I'd be willing to bet that it could end up like when Nixon left the White House, he did it because he knew he didn't have the votes. People in the US have NEVER bought more guns, race relations haven't been worse in decades, people have had enough. 75% think we're on the wrong path, look at the election, they wan't anyone that can offer any kind of real change.

Judges rule based on how they see things. We as a nation have had many discussions about the law and what it means, it's an ongoing process. Judges only give opinions, they've changed over the years. They ruled against same sex marriage, then for it. The changed the constitution over alcohol, then changed it back.

They young people have no future here, much like France or Greece. People come here because other nations are doing worse than we are and that's our only strength.

Poverty numbers:
The problem is the shear number of people on these systems. Some 100 million is a sign of a failed system. How can 100 million people not find a way to make things work? It's a failed system.

Remember, people can only be ruled if they choose to be ruled. If it gets too bad, the can choose revolution. Humans have a long history of revolution.

Actually one could say that some have already started in some cities. Look at the riots in LA in the 80's and look at modern riots. At some point, they can tip the whole thing over.
 
And, sadly, most conservatives seem to want to make this system even worse than it is now instead of going back to the ideals that worked. Yeah, you lower most wages, send extreme wealth to a few people, cut taxes to the people who would pay the most...yeah, you've ****ed yourself, right in the ol' piehole.

America's economic system is a failure, but I bet it's for the opposite reasons you believe. I guess "The Greatest Country In The World" isn't really at all. Sadly, the ones who stand to benefit from the country crashing seem to support the idea. As in, guys who write routines for robots....

What will you do when ISIS is writing the routines for robots? China is spending 180 billion on industrial robots and Japan is probably the most advanced. Wait till they master AI.
Can't hang on the the old VCR and 8Track player forever.

As far as wealth goes, a persons current value is based on 2 things:
1. the ability to perform something of value
2. the control over something of value (gold, money, IP, etc)

If a person can do anything other than pump out 15 babies for the world to support, she needs to rethink her place in the world.
 
And, sadly, most conservatives seem to want to make this system even worse than it is now instead of going back to the ideals that worked. Yeah, you lower most wages, send extreme wealth to a few people, cut taxes to the people who would pay the most...yeah, you've ****ed yourself, right in the ol' piehole.

America's economic system is a failure, but I bet it's for the opposite reasons you believe. I guess "The Greatest Country In The World" isn't really at all. Sadly, the ones who stand to benefit from the country crashing seem to support the idea. As in, guys who write routines for robots....

If its so bad here are you moving?
 
If its so bad here are you moving?

Uh, no. Only because I have an established career that took forever to build up and I don't want to be that far from family. But I do vote for people who want to change it. I certainly do not see patriotism in supporting an obviously-failing system.
 
What will you do when ISIS is writing the routines for robots? China is spending 180 billion on industrial robots and Japan is probably the most advanced. Wait till they master AI.
Can't hang on the the old VCR and 8Track player forever.

What, exactly, is your point and how does it relate to what you quoted?

If a person can do anything other than pump out 15 babies for the world to support, she needs to rethink her place in the world.

You are nothing if not random.
 
Uh, no. Only because I have an established career that took forever to build up and I don't want to be that far from family. But I do vote for people who want to change it. I certainly do not see patriotism in supporting an obviously-failing system.

So when you vote for someone that decides that established career of yours is worth half what it is today because "it's better for everyone" you're good to go?
 
Okay I'll bite on your last question. Yes. If you are not responsible enough to control your reproductive habits, then guess what? When you show up for your welfare check you also get a depo shot. You also take a drug test. Welfare is to offer a hand up, not a hand out. The intent it to provide you with financial assistance until you can go it alone, not become a depend of the state.

How many kids does one have to have as a welfare recipient before being sterilised? How do you handle cases where people who have kids they could afford go on welfare for a short time after losing a job? Do they get sterilised too?

I presume if you are against handouts you are also in favour of a 100% tax on inheritance.
 
The issue above was about limits, is there any limits to how much the government should collect?

I started working at 11, saved enough for a car before I was old enough to drive. Started living on my own at 17, spent the next 8 years in college and worked all but 1 month of that. The 1 month was because a business closed and I had to find other work. I actually did apply for welfare, but they wouldn't take a student, thankfully a job came thru soon enough.

None of the schools were private. Most of the education came from buying my own computer and many books, the school was only for getting a piece of paper that I thought I might need someday, otherwise it had almost no marketable value.

BTW, the whole college system is yet another scam. They control the supply, greatly oversell the value, cause massive debt. The whole thing can be replace with online learning like Kahn or iTunesU. The vast majority of my education didn't come from college.

The 15 kids might be extreme but having kids for money isn't. This is about personal responsibility.
If she doesn't have the IQ to function in society, she needs to get help. Why gives the government the right to force others to pay for her actions?

Why does the rights of 35% of the nation to hold back the rest of the nation override the rights of the rest to move forward?

How are her rights greater than my rights?

This is exactly why we need to split this nation up, let the welfare states have their own states, let the producers have their rights. The producers didn't cause these problem, no more than I caused Greece to go broke. Greece made it's own problems, the woman with 15 kids made her own problem, forcing others to pay for someone else's mistakes is just wrong.

If you went to public school you didn't "pay for it all yourself". You got a subsidy.
 
The point about programming robots is that it will happen. IIRC, there's been a HUGE spike in automated warfare. The use of drones to fight battles. Much like the A bomb, once people know it can be done, it's only a matter of time before it is done.

Same thing with robots, we've talked about how things change over time, the print media is nearly gone, mobile has taken over most of the world, cars can drive themselves, robots will take your order and cook your food because humans are too expensive.

This will either happen here in the US or it will happen in China or Japan, but it will happen.

With the vast majority of humans dependent on selling their labor to earn their keep, they will be at a huge disadvantage when they find their labor has no more value.

Although it's been talked about for decades and we've made things work, this time it's different. Innovation is valued based on a number of factors, one is how universal the innovation is. Once robots implement standardization in both design and how they are programmed, they will become very universal.

Much like how the Internet changed so many things because of standardization, so to will manufacturing. No longer will you have to get a robot that can only do a few limited things, they will be reprogrammable and be used in so many different things.

When the Internet started, it was text, email type stuff. Now, it's becoming like what Larry Page said it would, invisible. That means it's like plumbing in your house, you don't see it, but it's there and you just use it.

What can a human do that I can't program a robot to do? What are we going to do with all humans. Most of them are low IQ humans with little social and economic value. Most live in areas with little food or water and no jobs, what will we do with them?

Yet we keep producing more and more without any thought about how will we feed them. We've already proven that we can't educate them at any cost, they don't have a high enough IQ to do anything of real economic value.

So the only answer is a massive war, which seems to be right on target as all these low IQ humans are invading the higher IQ nations. Look at a map of the average IQs and look at where people are invading. They are coming from nations with high population and average IQs of 85.

That's barely above mental retardation.

Meanwhile, the high IQ nations are debt ridden and being invaded with low IQ humans that have no economic value.

All the producers need is one more bubble to crash the whole system. A simple eoconomic slowdown and all the paycheck to paycheck people are done. They got no bail out last time, they'll get no bail out this time. When they go asking for a job, the producers will see no value in them because a robot will be doing the work.

The debt ridden government will have reached the end of the credit card because no other nation will have any credit left to loan them. Look at Germany after WWI, massive hyper inflation. The fiat currency will drop in value so fast it'll be a joke.

Enjoy the ride, you've earned it.
 
If you went to public school you didn't "pay for it all yourself". You got a subsidy.

All the producers pay taxes. I didn't pay for all the schools, but I've paid a lot more than what I got out of it.
The public school system is a joke, if people want an education, all they need to do is learn to read. The public school system is nothing but a way to brainwash people into an agenda.

Look at the people in college today, they see racism in food, they've shut down debate. It's not about education, it's about brainwashing people into thinking they don't have to work because they are entitled to other people's stuff.

You seem to be a pretty good example of the output of this system.

People on one side have been brainwashed into allowing their nation to be destroyed.

It seems so hard for humans to use their brain to figure out how to use their brain, yet so easy for them to be brainwashed. Jim Jones brainwashed a bunch of people into killing themselves, the government has brainwashed 1/2 the nation into thinking the national debt doesn't matter and they don't have to work.

Like I said, enjoy the ride, you've earned it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost
How many kids does one have to have as a welfare recipient before being sterilised? How do you handle cases where people who have kids they could afford go on welfare for a short time after losing a job? Do they get sterilised too?

I presume if you are against handouts you are also in favour of a 100% tax on inheritance.

It's not being sterilized. It's simply birth control while you are having the government fund your life.

100% tax on inheritance? You think inheritance is a hand out? Laughable. What warped universe is it you're from?

If you went to public school you didn't "pay for it all yourself". You got a subsidy.

My kids go to private schools and I pay taxes for your kids to go to public school. I'd say I've given enough considering the abject failures that the public school system is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1458279
It's not being sterilized. It's simply birth control while you are having the government fund your life.

Is that for all benefits recipients? Or just those with lots of children?

100% tax on inheritance? You think inheritance is a hand out? Laughable. What warped universe is it you're from?

Inheritance is basically the definition of a hand out. It's free money you didn't earn.

I'd say I've given enough considering the abject failures that the public school system is.

State runs schools aren't always the best but they aren't failures. If they were people wouldn't be able to read.
 
All the producers pay taxes. I didn't pay for all the schools, but I've paid a lot more than what I got out of it.
The public school system is a joke, if people want an education, all they need to do is learn to read. The public school system is nothing but a way to brainwash people into an agenda.

Look at the people in college today, they see racism in food, they've shut down debate. It's not about education, it's about brainwashing people into thinking they don't have to work because they are entitled to other people's stuff.

You seem to be a pretty good example of the output of this system.

People on one side have been brainwashed into allowing their nation to be destroyed.

It seems so hard for humans to use their brain to figure out how to use their brain, yet so easy for them to be brainwashed. Jim Jones brainwashed a bunch of people into killing themselves, the government has brainwashed 1/2 the nation into thinking the national debt doesn't matter and they don't have to work.

Like I said, enjoy the ride, you've earned it.

Actually people need a few more skills than learning to read to survive in the modern workplace. Reading is just the bare minimum. Most people need more than that.
 
The point about programming robots is that it will happen. IIRC, there's been a HUGE spike in automated warfare. The use of drones to fight battles. Much like the A bomb, once people know it can be done, it's only a matter of time before it is done.

Same thing with robots, we've talked about how things change over time, the print media is nearly gone, mobile has taken over most of the world, cars can drive themselves, robots will take your order and cook your food because humans are too expensive.

This will either happen here in the US or it will happen in China or Japan, but it will happen.

With the vast majority of humans dependent on selling their labor to earn their keep, they will be at a huge disadvantage when they find their labor has no more value.

Although it's been talked about for decades and we've made things work, this time it's different. Innovation is valued based on a number of factors, one is how universal the innovation is. Once robots implement standardization in both design and how they are programmed, they will become very universal.

Much like how the Internet changed so many things because of standardization, so to will manufacturing. No longer will you have to get a robot that can only do a few limited things, they will be reprogrammable and be used in so many different things.

When the Internet started, it was text, email type stuff. Now, it's becoming like what Larry Page said it would, invisible. That means it's like plumbing in your house, you don't see it, but it's there and you just use it.

What can a human do that I can't program a robot to do? What are we going to do with all humans. Most of them are low IQ humans with little social and economic value. Most live in areas with little food or water and no jobs, what will we do with them?

Yet we keep producing more and more without any thought about how will we feed them. We've already proven that we can't educate them at any cost, they don't have a high enough IQ to do anything of real economic value.

So the only answer is a massive war, which seems to be right on target as all these low IQ humans are invading the higher IQ nations. Look at a map of the average IQs and look at where people are invading. They are coming from nations with high population and average IQs of 85.

That's barely above mental retardation.

Meanwhile, the high IQ nations are debt ridden and being invaded with low IQ humans that have no economic value.

All the producers need is one more bubble to crash the whole system. A simple eoconomic slowdown and all the paycheck to paycheck people are done. They got no bail out last time, they'll get no bail out this time. When they go asking for a job, the producers will see no value in them because a robot will be doing the work.

The debt ridden government will have reached the end of the credit card because no other nation will have any credit left to loan them. Look at Germany after WWI, massive hyper inflation. The fiat currency will drop in value so fast it'll be a joke.

Enjoy the ride, you've earned it.

Are you saying Hitler was good?
 
Inheritance is basically the definition of a hand out. It's free money you didn't earn.


State runs schools aren't always the best but they aren't failures. If they were people wouldn't be able to read.

It's something the parent's earned and give to their kids. Just like a bike for Xmas. Or in some cases crack cocaine, depending on which area your from.

The point is that you didn't earn it, they did, it's freedom to choose. Should the government stop a parent from buying their kid a bike for Xmas, after all, the kid didn't earn it, the parents did?

Awesome statement about schools, as long as people can read, that's all that matters. Whatever you do, don't compare the output of public schools to the output of private schools. As long as they can read, it's NOT a failure, no matter how much government money is spent, it's NEVER a failure.

They'll need to read to know how much their welfare checks are :D
 
It's something the parent's earned and give to their kids. Just like a bike for Xmas. Or in some cases crack cocaine, depending on which area your from.

The point is that you didn't earn it, they did, it's freedom to choose. Should the government stop a parent from buying their kid a bike for Xmas, after all, the kid didn't earn it, the parents did?

Awesome statement about schools, as long as people can read, that's all that matters. Whatever you do, don't compare the output of public schools to the output of private schools. As long as they can read, it's NOT a failure, no matter how much government money is spent, it's NEVER a failure.

They'll need to read to know how much their welfare checks are :D

They do compare state and private schools. Private schools are educationally better (but are socially worse) but the difference isn't usually enormous.

Probably 95% of kids at a good private school get good GCSEs vs 70% at state school. But good private schools select their kids.

The percentage of kids from an equivalent background and intelligence getting those results is probably the same.
 
Are you saying Hitler was good?

BINGO!

... and there you have it folks, all summed up in ONE word. HITLER.

The goto tag line for someone that can't use logic in their argument. The final attempt at self justification, pull out the HITLER card :D

Only took 770 posts to get to the HITLER card, it must be slow night for the logic challenged.

Ok, you got me. I _AM_ Hitler. I hid in the tunnel and waited for just this moment to once again save the world but this time I'm using robots :D

Now if you'll excuse me, I have "something cooking" :eek:
 
They do compare state and private schools. Private schools are educationally better (but are socially worse) but the difference isn't usually enormous.

Probably 95% of kids at a good private school get good GCSEs vs 70% at state school. But good private schools select their kids.

The percentage of kids from an equivalent background and intelligence getting those results is probably the same.

What's this comparison say about the cost? How much of California's budget goes towards private schools vs how much of it goes to public schools?

Do the people going to private school get refunded by the state for the education they didn't get because they went to private school?
 
It's something the parent's earned and give to their kids. Just like a bike for Xmas. Or in some cases crack cocaine, depending on which area your from.

The point is that you didn't earn it, they did, it's freedom to choose. Should the government stop a parent from buying their kid a bike for Xmas, after all, the kid didn't earn it, the parents did.

Still a handout. You're the one who has projected that I'm against inheritance.

I'm just pointing out its an unearned handout.
What's this comparison say about the cost? How much of California's budget goes towards private schools vs how much of it goes to public schools?

Do the people going to private school get refunded by the state for the education they didn't get because they went to private school?

Do people without kids get a tax rebate too?
 
BINGO!

... and there you have it folks, all summed up in ONE word. HITLER.

The goto tag line for someone that can't use logic in their argument. The final attempt at self justification, pull out the HITLER card :D

Only took 770 posts to get to the HITLER card, it must be slow night for the logic challenged.

Ok, you got me. I _AM_ Hitler. I hid in the tunnel and waited for just this moment to once again save the world but this time I'm using robots :D

Now if you'll excuse me, I have "something cooking" :eek:

You're the one saying a large percentage of the population is completely redundant.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.