Tim Cook 'Deeply Offended' by BBC Documentary on Apple Factory Conditions

[groovyd]

The problem isn't with companies purchasing resources from wherever they are being sold at for whatever price they do, the problem begins in those places with the corruption of their political system, the general lack of education, and the unmotivated laissez-faire attitudes in those places to rise up above and change the environment they live in. Change is much harder then acceptance.

The easier path as a kid or even an adult in these places (I have personally been to all of them) is to accept the fate of your life and just dig the tin out by hand if that is how they do it earning the paltry income (which in fact is directly relative to paltry street prices for goods in their neighborhoods) that otherwise there is no opportunity for and there never will be. There is no opportunity for a higher education and their government isn't about to change anything to improve their situation since those people on top are already themselves ultra-wealthy and educated and well fed. By educating their masses it only risks weakening their position on top.

At the end of the day none of this is the responsibility of the consumer looking for a phone and while it does help for companies such as Apple to push for improved conditions around the world (which I believe they are doing more then any other company out there) it will never really change unless those people in those environments motivate themselves to step up and force the change from within from the bottom to the top.

I personally don't care where they source their tin.

 

[dollystereo]

It's really sad.

 

[autrefois]

It would be nice if Tim and more people were "deeply offended" by the conditions (improving, but still miserable) that these people have to work under.

Yes. I think Apple's factories are pretty much top of the list. But that list really is not hard to top.

The conditions are still absolutely appalling. I'm not saying don't buy anything from China. These days that's borderline impossible. What I am saying though is Apple have more retained profit than any company in the world and putting just a little of that aside to make their factories at least respectable would be a start.

I hope people read your posts and consider them (this is just a short selection, but I also agree with what you're saying elsewhere). Too many people don't view this is a very complicated, nuanced issue.

 

[Count Blah]

Didn't say it was OK. But it's ridiculous to expect Apple to need to deal with all of this.

So what you expect them to do, because 'they can afford it', is:

...

Uh yeah. You don't get to go around preaching political views and positions, when you empire is built upon slave labor. That's called being hypocritical. Apple moved manufacturing to third world countries because labor costs are so damn low, due to treating people like garbage.

Apple absolutely has a say, by building the workers terms into their contracts with the suppliers. Dictate the # of hours/days a worker can work in a row. Dictate the age restrictions, dictate the work conditions, etc... If the manufacturer wants make $$$ building Apple products, they sign and adhere, or pass on Apple for other business. Also put snap and undercover inspections into the contract. Do you think every manufacturer would decline to sign with Apple?

If Apple is so high and mighty enough to tell me how to live my life, and toot their own horn with their "green" computers, then they can devote a dozen or so employees to go undercover to inspect the plants/chain.

Maybe apples forgoes some $$$ to build in worker protections into the contracts. But in reality, $.05 per phone >>>>> humane working conditions for manufacturering employees.

Lip service means little. Photo ops of ole Timmy standing in a manufacturing plant means nothing, when the remaining 364 days and 23 hours of they year, the plant cares nothing for the employees.

 

[LordVic]

Indeed it does.

Tim would've earned a lot of respect from me if he had instead said, "You know what, you're right. We're appalled by this too and we're going to get serious about this issue." He would've even earned a little respect if he had said, "You know what? It's not our problem, and we won't be so in-your-face about saying how ethical we are over the rest of the industry." Instead, he took the predictable path of corporate denial.

Fail.

agree!

Apple is not the worst company in the world. We all know this. Cook has done quite a lot already to help improve conditions.

But the evidence of the report (if true) is still damnit. It means that they have not done enough.

Responding with "I'm deeply offended" isn't a response. It's a cop out. it's not a rebuttal or an argument. It is nothing more than an emotional appeal. "Listen to me, cause i'm offended! i'm hurt, my emotions have been attacked!". there's no evidence by cook to show that the allegations are in fact incorrect.

he should have come out humble. The best response would have been to showcase all they have done and to say they are appreciative of the work the BBC did to discovering these transgressions and that Apple would be striving to correct these.

Deeply offended? I'm deeply offended some people believe treating people next to slaves is still appropriate anywhere in this world

 

[Thunderhawks]

Indeed it does.

Tim would've earned a lot of respect from me if he had instead said, "You know what, you're right. We're appalled by this too and we're going to get serious about this issue." He would've even earned a little respect if he had said, "You know what? It's not our problem, and we won't be so in-your-face about saying how ethical we are over the rest of the industry." Instead, he took the predictable path of corporate denial.

Fail.

What Apple says officially and what they then do will never be made public.
You can bet that when these conditions where reported to Apple the first time, they took action.

Unfortunately there are too many nitwits who do not understand that you can only police what you know about and see.

Say, Apple audits a place, talks to workers etc. etc. and forces Foxconn to abide by Apple guidelines, regardless of costs. Then they'll monitor the changes for a while and then Foxconn does what they always do, until the next audit etc.
A cat and mouse game.

The problem with China is much deeper than just Foxconn workers. Nobody has managed yet to stop them from making child after child. Despite the attempt to limit children to 2 per family, they are still overpopulated and will continue to be.

There are not enough well paying jobs for everybody in this world.

As for slave labor, forcing employees etc. these are great buzzwords, but when one sees how many stand in line to get hired when there are openings, I beg to differ.
Applying western standards to the way other cultures think or behave never works.

Apple is great to attack for publicity.

I am waiting for the documentary about DELL, Lenovo and Microsoft factory sweatshop conditions, but won't hold my breath.

None of them order 50 million of anything.

 

[H2SO4]

The only real solution would be to move all manufacturing to the United States or other country with more stringent working rights but then all the kids won't be able to afford their nice shiny new $2000 phone (according to some experts if made in the USA).

The outrage will only go as far as the how much the masses can afford the device.

Personally, I'm not sure what Apple can do in terms of telling Foxconn how to run it's business in China. I suppose you could threaten pulling your business to somewhere else to which the Chinese would give a hearty laugh about the threat due to the huge profits made by employing Foxconn.

If Apple wants to claim moral superiority in the supply chain, then they best start directing more money that way to make the change to actually own the superiority or move it all to the USA.

I honestly don't think Apple can force Foxconn to do anything if they don't threaten to move away from them. Worker's rights in China is almost nil there (for a worker's paradise..heh).

Dont’ be ridiculous.
It’ll only be $2000 because of the margin they want to apply. We have times in my business where we have different margins.
Hell some business we turn down because we won’t drop it. Not can’t, won’t.

 

[doelcm82]

Apple's already been double-downing, IMO.

How about some media fire to get other companies to double-down like Apple has been doing, instead of saying "Apple's not doing enough... they should quadruple-down"?

Tell that to the media. Tell them you want more stories about how the products we use are made.

 

[keysofanxiety]

Apple absolutely has a say, by building the workers terms into their contracts with the suppliers. Dictate the # of hours/days a worker can work in a row. Dictate the age restrictions, dictate the work conditions, etc... If the manufacturer wants make $$$ building Apple products, they sign and adhere, or pass on Apple for other business. Also put snap and undercover inspections into the contract. Do you think every manufacturer would decline to sign with Apple?

Yep, I can immediately see you didn't watch the documentary as your very points were addressed in it. If you don't know what you're discussing there's no point in starting a debate.

 

[ozziegn]

Is it really a choice when your only options are work a ****** job or don't work at all?

Yes, everything in life is about choices. Whether a person makes a good or bad decision (aka "choice") is up to them.

Take myself as an example. I'm a paraplegic with zero education other than a high school diploma which now in days doesn't mean zilch. But yet I still consider myself to be lucky because I have a good job that pays well which means I don't have to feel sorry for myself and live off the system like millions of people that do.

Again, it's my "choice" to live the way I do based on the morals I learned from my parents and knowing the difference between right and wrong. People can feel sorry for me all day long because I'm in a wheelchair. But at the end of the day, the pity I could receive will not pay my bills. I "choose" to live a decent life and that's exactly what I do.

Walmart employees do have choices. Therefore they get zero sympathy from me. Same as anyone else that's stuck in those types of work forces.

 

[Rogifan]

Curious as to why when others criticize Apple, you're usually front and center defending them yet it's OK when you do it with all the threads you create? Are your criticisms the only valid ones?

It depends what the criticism is for. if I criticize Apple for something that means I can't defend them over anything else?

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Do you have factual evidence that the claim is either correct or incorrect?

I'm not making the accusations it's not up to me to prove them factual or not.

 

[ItWasNotMe]

As a public service broadcaster rather than a corporation, the BBC isn't a profit led organisation. However, from where I'm sitting I can see both sides of this argument. Apple do appear to be trying to make improvements in ethically sourced materials and worker conditions and the BBC did focus on Apple when there are clearly wider issues for the tech industry as a whole to look at.

The main, undeniable point of all this is that there are clearly people working in poor conditions in these factories and everyone who has an interest (Apple, other tech companies and Government) need to get a grip and do something about it. If that means not screwing down suppliers to cheap contracts that ultimately means less profit (or higher prices) then that's exactly what should happen.

Whenever I see things like this, I can't help feeling that we're all a little to blame really - consumers are the ones wanting top quality products for sod all cost.

Since when has Apple provided any hardware at "sod all cost"?

 

[bawbac]

Yet any cell phone you buy that isn't Apple most likely has the same, or more likely - worse working conditions.

The difference is Apple is one of the very few companies doing something about it.


Edit: here's the official email:

It's all saber rattling to make good drama for the news but NOTHING is improving at a fast pace.
Apple has sat in an ivory tower so long they can not longer empathize with people which they classify as low class disposable laborers.

 

[rdowns]

It depends what the criticism is for. if I criticize Apple for something that means I can't defend them over anything else?

That is not what I said but don't let me interrupt your confusion.

 

[hobo.hopkins]

Apple can insist that the companies that assemble the product with Apple's brand on them comply with certain standards, or they'll take their business elsewhere. If it costs Apple more to have their products made ethically, Apple has the choice. It's Apple's image that is being hurt here, and rightly so.

Thanks for pointing out the problems with labor that produces other goods, but right now, we're talking about how Apple products are made.

There is a limit to what Apple can do, but they're nowhere near that limit, by their own choice. There is also a limit to what they can do to protect their intellectual property when they put that IP in the hands of these factories that aren't really a part of Apple. But when there's an unauthorized leak of a new apple product, don't you think Apple makes phone calls and threatens consequences for the company that allowed the leak to occur? If they don't give as much weight to the conditions under which their products are made as they do to the security around those products, the I will judge Apple harshly for "doubling down" on a truly messed-up set of priorities.

Do you really think that there are viable alternatives to factories like Foxconn that are more ethical? Apple already has issues fulfilling demand for their products and they're using the largest manufacturing company in the world. Even if they invested heavily in factories someplace like the United States how exactly would that help the very people you are so concerned about? The reality is that doing something is better than nothing, and I've seen very little action by anyone else in the industry except Apple to improve the lives of their suppliers.

For some people that's not enough, and never will be enough. But to berate a company for trying is to criticise the very same ideals that you seem to stand for.

 

[Gutwrench]

On a separate note - can someone tell me what Jeff Williams' MacBook Air is sitting on?

 

[Poisonivy326]

Wow at reading some of these posts. Empathy really isn't a learned quality.

 

[Crosscreek]

This is shocking reality but not surprising manipulation of people that have no choice in order to survive.
That's what corporations have done through history. A sad reality by Apple and all electronic manufacturers.

 

[Iconoclysm]

So tin mined by children ends up in iPhones - undisputed fact.

But this is okay because there are some middlemen? And Apple themselves are trying to brand it "artisan tin", like some upper-middle-class fancy rustic bread product.

Maybe Apple, who can afford it, could source their tin from elsewhere, as their efforts to make Indonesian tin mining better are clearly not really working.

That tin ends up in virtually every consumer electronics manufacturers products - undisputed fact. Yet you're calling out Apple here as if they're the ones that need to clean up the entire industry. The Apple hate has become quite a joke.

 

[GigabitEthernet]

This won't last much longer. China is becoming more and more expensive to build products in and the US is starting to become cheaper.

Apple products will be made in America again within 10 years and with that working conditions will be better.

 

[dannyyankou]

Hey BBC, keep promoting that show from an iPad

 

[Iconoclysm]

Do you really think that there are viable alternatives to factories like Foxconn that are more ethical? Apple already has issues fulfilling demand for their products and they're using the largest manufacturing company in the world. Even if they invested heavily in factories someplace like the United States how exactly would that help the very people you are so concerned about? The reality is that doing something is better than nothing, and I've seen very little action by anyone else in the industry except Apple to improve the lives of their suppliers.

For some people that's not enough, and never will be enough. But to berate a company for trying is to criticise the very same ideals that you seem to stand for.

Also worth noting that Apple was the last of the US PC manufacturers to move operations to China after fighting tooth and nail to compete with US built products.

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Hey BBC, keep promoting that show from an iPad

Image

How much should those workers in China get per phone anyway? If they're going to pay more, may as well move that stuff back to the US.

 

[Rogifan]

That is not what I said but don't let me interrupt your confusion.

What's your point? I've never argued that my criticisms of Apple are the only valid ones.

 

[Zxxv]

Hey BBC, keep promoting that show from an iPad

Image

Factories spend only about $5 putting them together. Thats the factories choice not apples. Someone at the factory is pocketing the rest and it aint the floor workers.

 

[Rogifan]

This won't last much longer. China is becoming more and more expensive to build products in and the US is starting to become cheaper.

Apple products will be made in America again within 10 years and with that working conditions will be better.

Great. Then the BBC can run a story on the millions of Chinese workers displaced by Apple and forced back to the fields where they make 1/10 what they were making at Foxconn.