Tim Cook Insists Merging Mac and iPad Would Result in Compromises

[bluecoast]

The funny thing is, that if you use the iPad Pro with the apple keyboard, it’s pretty much like the device that Cook says that he DOESN’T want to make i.e. a touch screen PC.

I’d argue it needs some form of trackpad/mouse support so iPad Pro users with keyboards aren’t reaching up to peck at the screen, like the surface users that apple so likes to scorn!
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I kind of agree with Tim lol. I like that Mac OS is one thing and iOS is another thing. I use them ion two very different ways. Mac Os and iOS both have their places.

Look at the Surface/Windows 8 that some would call a "debacle". Microsoft tried to merge a mobile system and a desktop system (and don't for get the even crazier Windows 8 RT). From what I can gather most people hated Windows 8. The end result was arguably pretty terrible. I think Microsoft's compromise with Windows 10 was a step back into the right direction. I still can't figure out if the Surface is a better lap top or a tablet, because it does both pretty terribly. Only thing I could see Apple maybe doing one day is adding touch screen to the Mac, but only maybe time will tell. This is just my opinion and anyone can feel free to disagree with me if they love their Surface or even liked Windows 8.

Windows 10 is better but it’s still a real mess. Everyday I see two different styles of Windows 10 era UIs with windows 7 style UIs and programs still being predominant. Explore settings and after a while you’ll get thrown into the Windows 7 style control panel.

And don’t even get me started on the different styles of right click menus!

 

[skinned66]

I'm pretty sure there are people prepared to take those compromises Tim. I mean, you sell plenty of laptops with 13" screens, 8GB of RAM and Intel integrated graphics for close to two grand.

 

[fivetoedsloth]

The funny thing is, that if you use the iPad Pro with the apple keyboard, it’s pretty much like the device that Cook says that he DOESN’T want to make i.e. a touch screen PC.

I’d argue it needs some form of trackpad/mouse support so iPad Pro users with keyboards aren’t reaching up to peck at the screen, like the surface users that apple so likes to scorn!

Exactly! For purists who argue the iPad should only be touch input and the Mac should never be touch input, how do you explain all these add on accessories and apps that compensate for what’s missing? The lack of keyboard and stylus on the iPad is why I purchased a third party Bluetooth keyboard and stylus. The lack of touch and stylus on the Mac is why I bought a Wacom Intuos and the app Astropad. Those all “compromise the purity” of the interface by making it (gasp!) more useful. Even Apple recognized this need by finally adding stylus support and a rudimentary file manager to iOS.

And for you anti-hybridists, how do you justify the existence of the iPhone? It is the very definition of compromise and hybridization. And it is a much better and more useful device for having other built in tools besides a phone. Its camera is not better than a dedicated camera, its e-book reader is not better than a Kindle, and its phone is not better than a land line. Yet it is the device millions like me prefer because all it’s features are “good enough.” Convenience usually wins over purity.

If Apple were to finally acknowledge the convenience of having stylus support on a desktop, they would usurp much of Wacom’s business. The touch enabled Mac may never be better than a dedicated Cintiq, but it will absolutely be good enough for millions.

 

[69650]

The funny thing is, that if you use the iPad Pro with the apple keyboard, it’s pretty much like the device that Cook says that he DOESN’T want to make i.e. a touch screen PC.

Totally agree. I use my 12” iPad Pro + Keyboard as a laptop with a touch screen. The only difference is the OS.

I wouldn’t need a seperate laptop if they removed the iOS limitations and made a 15” iPad Pro.

 

[dirt_farmer]

I’m not talking about tablet mode. I’m talking about why I have three or four different windows for network settings... some are the tablet UI and some are the classic windows style. That’s the whole problem with Windows 10 now, the UI is a mess.

Windows 7 is what I want, it was perfect.... but sadly Microsoft decide to not put latest api support for it.

Transitions take time. One word: Rosetta.

Because Apple chose to support the enterprise, they can't just drop things willy nilly like Apple does.

How many tens of thousands of DisplayLink users just had their high-dollar hardware investment suddenly stop working because Apple unexpectedly dropped support?

Microsoft can't do that because of their commitment to industry. And yes, that includes continuing support for legacy interface elements.

 

[bluecoast]

Transitions take time. One word: Rosetta.

Because Apple chose to support the enterprise, they can't just drop things willy nilly like Apple does.

How many tens of thousands of DisplayLink users just had their high-dollar hardware investment suddenly stop working because Apple unexpectedly dropped support?

Microsoft can't do that because of their commitment to industry. And yes, that includes continuing support for legacy interface elements.

Going off topic a little here, but I do wonder if at Build this year, MS might announce a fork in Windows where they’ll keep a slower track ‘legacy’ edition of Win 10 that prizes compatibility for corporates, Mom/Pop etc and introduces new UI features into windows very slowly.

The other would of course be a version where windows is aggressively pushed forward to adapting their new unified UI across the board and clears out the Windows 7 (and XP!) legacy cruft, targeting new and recent powerful machines (and new form factors). Surely also older Win32 apps could be made to run in VMs. This would also essentially be the ‘preview’ version for those running the legacy version day to day.

I think with their current approach, Windows 10 can’t be satisfying anyone.

 

[LordVic]

Going off topic a little here, but I do wonder if at Build this year, MS might announce a fork in Windows where they’ll keep a slower track ‘legacy’ edition of Win 10 that prizes compatibility for corporates, Mom/Pop etc and introduces new UI features into windows very slowly.

They tried this already with Win 10s, which turned out to be a resounding failure.

they've already changed tracks on this. Win 10s will now be an optional feature you can enable in standard win10should you wish to go 100% UWP.

I think with their current approach, Windows 10 can’t be satisfying anyone.

Not sure what you mean by satisfying? Win10 works exactly as expected and is a pretty decent platform. you may not like the UI, but Windows, (since 8) core and platform has been very stable and useful.

 

[bluecoast]

They tried this already with Win 10s, which turned out to be a resounding failure.

they've already changed tracks on this. Win 10s will now be an optional feature you can enable in standard win10should you wish to go 100% UWP.



Not sure what you mean by satisfying? Win10 works exactly as expected and is a pretty decent platform. you may not like the UI, but Windows, (since 8) core and platform has been very stable and useful.

They tried this already with Win 10s, which turned out to be a resounding failure.

they've already changed tracks on this. Win 10s will now be an optional feature you can enable in standard win10should you wish to go 100% UWP.



Not sure what you mean by satisfying? Win10 works exactly as expected and is a pretty decent platform. you may not like the UI, but Windows, (since 8) core and platform has been very stable and useful.

Thanks for the response.

I don’t mind the ideas in Windows 10 at all. I just wish that they’d hurry up and implement them throughout the system!

It’s strange and jarring going from - for example - the calendar app, to Win Explorer as they look like apps from two different generations of windows app (which essentially they are).

On the other hand, I totally get that there are others who prize the stability and compatibility of Windows 7 but who just wanted a few modern features attached to it.

That’s all I was getting at really and yeah I know there is an S mode (or that there will be) but you’ll still have to experience the win7 apps and shell that ms hasn’t yet updated.

As you say, others won’t care about this - they really loved Windows 7, as it ‘just worked’.

 

[dirt_farmer]

Going off topic a little here, but I do wonder if at Build this year, MS might announce a fork in Windows where they’ll keep a slower track ‘legacy’ edition of Win 10 that prizes compatibility for corporates, Mom/Pop etc and introduces new UI features into windows very slowly.

The other would of course be a version where windows is aggressively pushed forward to adapting their new unified UI across the board and clears out the Windows 7 (and XP!) legacy cruft, targeting new and recent powerful machines (and new form factors). Surely also older Win32 apps could be made to run in VMs. This would also essentially be the ‘preview’ version for those running the legacy version day to day.

I think with their current approach, Windows 10 can’t be satisfying anyone.

Could be...but in the end people are comfortable with what they use at work and statistically what they use at work is Windows 7 or 10 Professional.

Microsoft's customer for Windows is not the end user. Microsoft's customer is the reseller.

Keeping the resellers happy means keeping Windows as the de facto standard in the workplace and they have worked their butts off to do that.

Whether or not you find an "old style" control panel to be inconsistent with the new design language is absolutely irrelevant to them.

Because unlike Apple they understand that they are in business to Sell. Product.

 

[dk001]

At work, I have access to and use a Lenovo with a touchscreen (Yoga 920). Not my personal work laptop - that's a Thinkpad.
I am surprised at the number of times I find myself reaching out and touching the screen for some activity like I do on the pc or on my iPad Pro.
My MB could benefit from one immensely IMO.

 

[dirt_farmer]

They can keep the product lines separate. What I think they should do is make the products more competitive, by making them more usable.

They want the iPad Pro to replace a computer? Why not make a full-featured iMovie, rather than a neutered pos? Why not have a $50-200 FCPx app for iPad Pro? Have it interact well with the pencil and all that. Introduce MS-style control accessories designed just for editing and charge a stupid amount. And don't skimp on connectivity options, make it so that people can plug hard drives in and use media off them, like they would on a computer. It doesn't have to extend to the whole OS, but you should be able to work with video on hard drives. Have something that competes with Lightroom (the full powered one on desktop) and can easily work with SD cards or hard drives. Apply this logic to all "pro" or work-related apps. Make it so these work only on the "pro" iPads if necessary.

It's quite amazing what they've done with their SoCs. They charge an arm and a leg for upper end iPads. They should do what the hardware is capable of, and they should provide value according to the price they charge.

Paraphrasing a guy on youtube: Steve understood that you had to take away features but that you couldn't take away the features that are essential to using the device.

Apple has taken "try to guess what Steve would have done" to such an extreme that they now eliminate almost everything about the device.

The iPhone doesn't have a headphone connector.

The 12.9" iPad doesn't have a prop -- you have to buy that separately and attach it.

The Macbook is a too-small, too-slow, too-underpowered, overpriced computer that doesn't even have the ports you need to use it normally.

Meanwhile the Steve-era Macbook air is better, faster, more capable, with the correct ports, and costs less And is still for sale 10 years after it was introduced...probably because it is selling way better.

Again, stealing from the guy on YouTube: Apple has become a really good cover band of itself.

 

[Sevendaymelee]

Why do you think I have a Hackintosh?

I don't.

 

[albusseverus]

Then maybe he needs to stop pushing the iPad as a "computer". If he's adamant about keeping them apart, and they do have systematic benefits to themselves, then just stop with the nonsense of an iPad "What's a computer?" campaign. I use my iPad pro on the go and it has it's limitations that I wouldn't get on my MacBook, although, I love the versatility of my iPad Pro so it has its own benefits as well.

TOTALLY agree. Make iPad cheaper, lighter and better screens, but stop trying to make it a computer. It ain't. Put some wood behind Mac instead of letting it languish for 10 years, then put a pre-iPhone Touch Bar on it and sit in front of the steaming poo like a clueless puppy. Mac should be making iPad earn its place in the product line-up, but iPad has been given a free ride and Mac had it's foot nailed to the floor. I have no problem with iPad being for people that don't need a Mac. There's a lot more of them than Mac customers. But there's more Mac customers than ever, Apple is 10 times the size it was before iPhone and Mac should be running like a proper business, not the thing Apple needs to develop iOS apps!

I think Cook knows the difference, as we do. The rest is Marketing. Make iPad sound like a computer and people will pay more for it.

You come unstuck when you try to graduate to Mac. It's waaaaaay more powerful and more complicated. If there was a Launchpad mode "beginners switch" there might be a path of sorts, but you miss the power of Mac. Give Mac Pencil support and see where iPad fits, then!!!

Pundits doing amazing gymnastics to make iPad Pro their main device don't really help. On the surface, they're promoting the myth that iPad can replace Mac. Beyond the surface, WE see how hard it is to do the simplest things, like transfer video off an SD card, and how only a masochist would try - but the quick takeaway, unfortunately is… sure you can use iPad Pro and don't need a Mac.

I figured the way out, though. Pros need Pencil on Mac. That's the only chance we have for Apple to pay attention to Mac. Keep pushing Pencil and pro use of it should be on Mac, too. It's our only hope Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

[bladerunner2000]

I don't.

Well now that you do.... give it a thought.

 

[FriendlyMackle]

As funny as it sounds, I can't make out any other reason.


See, that's the thing. With any other manufacturer on earth, you get to choose. If you're happy with using your phone as a modem, you just don't order the version with LTE.

I for one hate to drain my phone battery just to access the internet, so I'd get the version with the modem on board. Apple would be able to sell me the necessary LTE parts with a good $90 markup and we'd both be happy.

Now, I don't even want to get into the fact that ubiquitous internet should be a thing nowadays and hence, a cellular modem would be a basic inclusion, just like keyboard and trackpad. I highle doubt the entire BOM would be more than $10 for Apple. But even for all the money in the world it can't be had. That I can't understand.

It would for sure be a $200 markup (at minimum!) on a mac laptop. Look what they charge for additional RAM. I get it - yes, more choice would be great for consumers like you. I think Apple's concern might be the small number of users who would opt to purchase this additional SKU (which would be a costly add-on for Apple in manufacturing terms). Also, laptops don't get great battery life right now...adding an LTE modem would probably take at least an hour off of the total wireless life. That's why I'm fine using my iphone as a modem - I get at least 8 hours+ using the phone just as a modem. And I can connect a tiny battery (to the phone) to double that easily. Vs. a much larger external battery for a laptop in case of travel.

 

[Cesar Battistini]

That was true during the Ballmer era but it is definitely not true now.

Try it out and surprise yourself. Windows is really, really good now. It's stable, secure, performant, smart, manageable, and stays out of your way.

Meanwhile OS X recently is buggy, has very "un-Apple" security issues, and is still stuck in the 17-year-old UX paradigm with a bunch of gimmicks layered on top to make it feel modern.

As a 19-year mac fanatic I never thought I would be typing these words...but here I am.

I deal with windows every single day, I have from 3 to 5 problems EVERY DAY that require at least 30 minutes each of troubleshooting.

I use a Mac for my personal use in the company and I have 1 issue a month, when i have any.
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I work for a company with 33,000 employees. All our work is done using Windows 7 and 10.
You have to grow up some time to the real world. The business world is run on Windows PC and Windows Applications.

I know! I am part of the IT team in a company and I have issues every day with windows!!!

I use my Mac for the same work and i get zero issues!

Printers lose configuration out of nowhere, outlook stops working, I get a random crash everyday.

All computers are new and with latest software.

If it wasn't for price, my company could use Macs and we would have zero problems.
[doublepost=1524669698][/doublepost]

Worst Mac I've owned. I switched back to my 2014MBP - developers need keyboard that work.

I guess i'm lucky because I have mine since launch and have ZERO issues.
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Yeah that argument is about two versions outdated. Windows 10 is and has been rock solid. Which is more than I can say for the latest offerings from Apple.

Not for the 12 machines in my company that require constant support.

 

[dirt_farmer]

I deal with windows every single day, I have from 3 to 5 problems EVERY DAY that require at least 30 minutes each of troubleshooting.

I use a Mac for my personal use in the company and I have 1 issue a month, when i have any.
[doublepost=1524669641][/doublepost]

I know! I am part of the IT team in a company and I have issues every day with windows!!!

I use my Mac for the same work and i get zero issues!

Printers lose configuration out of nowhere, outlook stops working, I get a random crash everyday.

All computers are new and with latest software.

If it wasn't for price, my company could use Macs and we would have zero problems.
[doublepost=1524669698][/doublepost]

I guess i'm lucky because I have mine since launch and have ZERO issues.
[doublepost=1524669737][/doublepost]
Not for the 12 machines in my company that require constant support.

In my nearly two decades of managing both platforms, this doesn't ring true.

If what you say is truly accurate, you need to look at how you are managing them.

Sounds like you have a problem with your image, your DC, your WSUS, could be lots of things done wrong.

My extensive experience is precisely opposite to yours: Have personally configured and deployed thousands of machines into enterprise (everything from manually customizing shrinkwrapped hardware to bulk imaging) from W2000 through W10Pro.

Have done the same for ~100ish Macs give or take. And been a personal Mac user the entire time, starting with a Cube and TiBook.

The Macs in enterprise almost without fail were a nightmare when it came to updating, domain joining, printing, networking, and user account control.

The Windows machines (mostly whitebox, Dell, HP, and Lenovo enterprise hardware) were almost without fail rock-solid, set-and-forget, don't-touch-from-one-year-to-the-next, manage-via-group-policy-from-another-city gold standard.

You mentioned a significant price differential from Mac to Windows: If you are doing it right you should be paying give or take 80% as much for PC hardware as you would for Mac. You need to buy enterprise-grade gear from a tier-1 vendor that is suited to the rigours of corporate deployment.

If you are buying $500 Asuses from CostCo and wondering why they crash, you are the answer that you are seeking.

 

[homegrownhero]

Well, they were originally against the stylus too, so... it's still possible.

does the iPhone run on stylus? I like how people just take **** out of context in an attempt to drop an overused dead meme one-liner.
"hurr but the ipad pro and now the ipad.." stop. if you're drawing or similar creative works, would you like to sketch with your fat fingers? no? ok. And the stylus remains optional and the operating the ipads without stylus is perfectly fine.

To reiterate: when you design a mobile device and its operating system that *NEEDS* a stylus for the user operate it competently then thats a no. but the iOS and its devices are designed for your fatty fingers and thumb to work precisely so there you have it.
[doublepost=1524694889][/doublepost]If what they are trying to do is put create a space that lets the tablet fulfill its role to the fullest without the making itself or the Mac redundant then push the MacOS and its devices further in terms of performance or functionality. especially the devices. Make them A LOT faster, like start squeezing GTX xx60 tier GPUs in there. Start competing with max-q gaming laptop levels of performance if possible. Start justifying your price with performance. And we actually have space in our ****ing backpacks since 2012 for ****s sake, stop compromising speed for space just to impress the clueless normies in your investor panels. Give us ports! Compatibility! SPEED! AND x86 PROCESSORS. PLEASE. *insert MacMini joke here as I stare emptily at mine*
As for the tablet, its probably the best tablet experience out there. iOS 11 brought its full potential to bear and now with styluses and buttery fast processors etc we get it, tablets are cool. Now push the Mac and what a computer can do.

 

[Neirin]

Well, they were originally against the stylus too, so... it's still possible.

The apple pencil is not a stylus

 

[Apple Fritter]

The apple pencil is not a stylus

No idea where you get your definition, both are point-shaped tools mostly used for writing, but pencils contain a solid marking substance while styli leave impressions or marks.

So in reality, the Apple Pencil isn't a pencil.

That said, it's probably silly to argue on the definitions anyways because they never played a role in the tech world. It's all marketing babble.

 

[dk001]

The apple pencil is not a stylus

Since when? Apple placed the functionality into the stylus and locked it to a device that supports it.
Others place the functionality predominately into the device and you can use the stylus across multiple devices that’s support it.

 

[scaramoosh]

Transitions take time. One word: Rosetta.

Because Apple chose to support the enterprise, they can't just drop things willy nilly like Apple does.

How many tens of thousands of DisplayLink users just had their high-dollar hardware investment suddenly stop working because Apple unexpectedly dropped support?

Microsoft can't do that because of their commitment to industry. And yes, that includes continuing support for legacy interface elements.

Well now I’m a mac user.... so wel dine Microsoft.

 

[oyabroch!]

You felt the need to tell us this AGAIN, MacRumors? This is rhetoric, it's been said YEARS AGO. Even a BLIND MAN can see macOS and iOS merged is a ridiculous compromise. Quit wasting time fabricating "news", and post something intelligent.

 

[TAJones99]

It's already watered down, the Ipad isn't a computer.

Yes you are right. I don't like that commercial when the little girl on her iPad says " what's a computer "
[doublepost=1525023726][/doublepost]I have been making it a point to use my PC's and MacBook Pro more, they are far superior. I just don't like that computer tech is being push back instead of being pushed forward. I know they have been switching to SSD's, but now we are paying for less space and you most of the time can upgrade it. Apps are cool but programs are better.

 

[paul.j.nelson]

It's already watered down, the Ipad isn't a computer.

The literal definition of a computer is "an electronic device which is capable of receiving information (data) in a particular form and of performing a sequence of operations in accordance with a predetermined but variable set of procedural instructions (program) to produce a result in the form of information or signals."

Which pretty much describes exactly what the iPad does, so it is a computer.