Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[Timo_Existencia]

Regarding being "locked in." I'm probably as Apple Fan Boy as you'll find. I bought my first Mac in 1986. I've never owned a computing device other than an Apple device (excepting my phones prior to the iPhone).

I just did an inventory of the most important Apps I have on my phone, and whether I could find the equivalent on Android. And at least for the top 20 or so apps I use the most, there's is a 1-1 equivalent on Android. Moving from an iPhone to an Android phone is nowhere near "impossible" as many have claimed. I'm guessing that even where I need to export and transfer data, it would cost me about 40 hours of work, at the most. And all the important apps I use are actually free, or are subscription based with a service that works whether I'm on IOS or Android.

As for my Mac, it's a very similar situation. The bottleneck is less the OS than the individual Apps. But, for example, instead of Final Cut pro I'd use Adobe Premier Pro and other Adobe apps like Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. All of which I've used in the past extensively and transferring to them wouldn't be a big deal. And like on the iPhone, It might take me 20-40 hours to convert documents and transfer file systems.

The point is, I think this "problem" is exaggerated.

I've spent way more money on accessories and parts for my BMW Motorcycle. Much of which I'd lose and have to start from scratch if I changed motorcycles. Or jobs. Or changing countries, which Ive done. Or changing families.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

My understanding is that you will still be able to use your Apple devices just as you use them now, in their “protected mode”. The DMA will just offer us a choice to install something bypassing App Store, as we can do on a Mac.

Which fundamentally changes the way Apple operates, and fundamentally changes the OS.

But also, it sets a precedent that the EU will now dictate business practices, rather than the market deciding. So, what's next? Will the EU mandate that IOS must be executable on any hardware developed by any company? Will they mandate that the iPhone must run Android?

Having worked in politics and government most of my professional life, every campaign I ran, every victory I had, was always a first step to a larger goal.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I'll be honest, I don't really know what to do. I just feel like tech companies (not Apple, as much) are putting everything in front rather than the user and leaving us to fight for our privacy and such.

Just feeling a bit helpless, you know?

Honestly, I think this is under much of the feelings in the EU. And I don't mean this lightly; I think it must be scary to know that nearly all of the power in the digital realm is developed and regulated outside of the EU. It must feel like a clear and present danger to know that your country is not a player in the digital realm.

I keep taking steps every year to strengthen my privacy. I've taken rather extreme steps to change the way I live; I left the US, for example, because I don't like the culture there anymore, and wanted to live differently. If I could drop off of the grid entirely, I'd love to do it. Little by little. And this goes for tech as well. I'm removing myself as much as I can from data tracking.

 

[1129846]

My preference doesn't need to be explained to you. Or justified to you. The point is I disagree with you. I grant that your preference is valid for you. Can you grant me the same? Or is your preference the only "right" way to think about this issue?

On this case no because YOUR PREFERENCE affects me. In my case my preferences has ZERO affect on you. There is a huge difference there.

 

[1129846]

Regarding being "locked in." I'm probably as Apple Fan Boy as you'll find. I bought my first Mac in 1986. I've never owned a computing device other than an Apple device (excepting my phones prior to the iPhone).

I just did an inventory of the most important Apps I have on my phone, and whether I could find the equivalent on Android. And at least for the top 20 or so apps I use the most, there's is a 1-1 equivalent on Android. Moving from an iPhone to an Android phone is nowhere near "impossible" as many have claimed. I'm guessing that even where I need to export and transfer data, it would cost me about 40 hours of work, at the most. And all the important apps I use are actually free, or are subscription based with a service that works whether I'm on IOS or Android.

As for my Mac, it's a very similar situation. The bottleneck is less the OS than the individual Apps. But, for example, instead of Final Cut pro I'd use Adobe Premier Pro and other Adobe apps like Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. All of which I've used in the past extensively and transferring to them wouldn't be a big deal. And like on the iPhone, It might take me 20-40 hours to convert documents and transfer file systems.

The point is, I think this "problem" is exaggerated.

I've spent way more money on accessories and parts for my BMW Motorcycle. Much of which I'd lose and have to start from scratch if I changed motorcycles. Or jobs. Or changing countries, which Ive done. Or changing families.

It is not just the apps that cause the lock in.

Lets go down Apple services, iCloud photos (lock to app and hamstrung on non apple)
Airplay only works with Apple devices that can cast to them. I do not even believe the Apple TV supports chrome cast.
iCloud as a whole hardly works on non Apple devices.
Apple speakers again hardly work if no Apple device to cast with them.
Sign in with Apple is heavily limited to only iOS device for the most part but is more on Apple SSO being garbage to set up and by far the hardest to get to work and test. It is only a think because Apple demands it for the App store other wise most places would dump it because the dev hate getting it to work.

That is just a subset. It is not just the Apps but the entire eco system. Compare this to Google it has zero issue jump across boundaries and pretty much everything works just as well on an Apple base network as it does an Android based system.

The cost to leave Android minor the cost to leave Apple is very high and harder to do. Hell Android makes it pretty easy to move everything over with the Account. This is a far cry from Apple where it takes some real effort to migrate things over.

 

[gk_brown]

I'm unlikely to use side loading on my iPhone but the feature should be there.

Couldn't agree more. Should be no different from the Mac. Although I wish the Mac app store was half as good as the iOS one...

 

[Boeingfan]

Why don’t they just call it what it is, legal jailbreaking. Warranty voided. Install Nissan software on your shiny new Tesla and see if Tesla will honour your warranty.

 

[Boeingfan]

It is not just the apps that cause the lock in.

Lets go down Apple services, iCloud photos (lock to app and hamstrung on non apple)
Airplay only works with Apple devices that can cast to them. I do not even believe the Apple TV supports chrome cast.
iCloud as a whole hardly works on non Apple devices.
Apple speakers again hardly work if no Apple device to cast with them.
Sign in with Apple is heavily limited to only iOS device for the most part but is more on Apple SSO being garbage to set up and by far the hardest to get to work and test. It is only a think because Apple demands it for the App store other wise most places would dump it because the dev hate getting it to work.

That is just a subset. It is not just the Apps but the entire eco system. Compare this to Google it has zero issue jump across boundaries and pretty much everything works just as well on an Apple base network as it does an Android based system.

The cost to leave Android minor the cost to leave Apple is very high and harder to do. Hell Android makes it pretty easy to move everything over with the Account. This is a far cry from Apple where it takes some real effort to migrate things over.

Why is why people looking for something easy should stick with Android, it’s easy, it’s open, it’s bloated, it’s susceptible to viruses, and it’s cheap. Fabulous!

 

[Jim Lahey]

Anyone would think people were being forced to buy, or keep, Apple products. The DMA ruse is the EU flexing its muscles in a bid to gain even more power. And I don’t see anyone complaining about their desire to backdoor encryption, which comes next after they have Cook over a compliance shaped barrel.

Careful what y’all wish for 👍

 

[SFjohn]

I hope Apple creates an iOS skin for android and installs it on all the iPhones sold to the EU. Problem solved! 😉

 

[Jim Lahey]

Which fundamentally changes the way Apple operates, and fundamentally changes the OS.

But also, it sets a precedent that the EU will now dictate business practices, rather than the market deciding. So, what's next? Will the EU mandate that IOS must be executable on any hardware developed by any company? Will they mandate that the iPhone must run Android?

Having worked in politics and government most of my professional life, every campaign I ran, every victory I had, was always a first step to a larger goal.

100%

This whole charade is a power play. Is Apple too powerful? Maybe. Probably, even. But anyone not asking the same questions of a meddling state is walking into a trap and will sooner or later rue the day they welcomed ever more regulation from mummy & daddy government.

 

[Onelifenofear]

We have a right to do anything with the hardware WE buy. Apple is too over-controlling over the things we can and cant do.

Xbox.
PlayStation.
Tesla.
Apple.

They developed the hardware and software. They can do what they want with it.

You open it and you have zip all control of the experience and reliability. You have android on any device with no real customer support. Why should they… you installed something stupid and now you data has been stolen… who’s fault is that.

You don’t want that fallback… go get and android. That’s the truth whether you like it or not. It’s not a monopoly. Because android exists.

 

[Onelifenofear]

100%

This whole charade is a power play. Is Apple too powerful? Maybe. Probably, even. But anyone not asking the same questions of a meddling state is walking into a trap and will sooner or later rue the day they welcomed ever more regulation from mummy & daddy government.

No. It’s 1/5th mobile phone market share overall.

 

[Onelifenofear]

For a long time defenders of Apple have been stating that sideloading apps has the potential to be extremely problematic because apps would be hosted by a 3rd party who may not do their own checks to see if what they are hosting is legitimate or a virus/malicious app. The thing is, that could well be the case BUT the point that keeps on getting missed is when it comes to consumerism, the EU is all about customer choice, let the customer decide what is best for them, not the manufacturer. The problem the EU see's with Apple is that Apple is the one that gets to decide what is and is not good for the customer, the customer not being able to make their own choice(s).

But then if a customer installs a virus riddled app and gets all the money stolen who’s to blame?

For Apple the way round this is…on the first page on install do you want an open phone, if so these are the services Apple pro side that won’t work.

Wallet
Passwords
Siri
iMessage
FaceTime
Apple Maps
iCloud apps
Photos
AppStore
Security
Others I can’t thing of…

Tick the box to continue and you have the iPhone 1.

Install away however you see fit.

 

[CarAnalogy]

Matching haircuts. Good start!

Seriously this reminds me of the spider man doppelgänger picture. I swear I can see Tim’s lips starting to say “we look just alike!”

 

[Jim Lahey]

Another thing for folk to consider is that the iPhones of your friends and acquaintances almost certainly contain potentially sensitive information about you. Specifically their contacts, calendars, emails, messages and backups. Still okay with aunt Delores being able to install basically anything on her iPhone? 🤔

ETA I guess the same could be said if those people own an Android device, so I concede this is probably already a risk.

 

[Shirasaki]

I suggest you spend some time looking at some of the apps available in Apple's App Store. Look under the sections that show the "Data Used to Track You" and "Data Linked to You" (data that's collected and linked to you) for each app.

If Apple is truly looking out for our privacy, these apps either wouldn't be allowed onto the App Store or they wouldn't be allowed to collected all this data and link it to us.

But this is what we get:

View attachment 2335687

The dark side of Apple protecting user privacy, the side apple fanboys refuse to admit.
I find such strong belief terrifying.

 

[lartola]

Can't you just jailbreak the phone? As I understand it, in the US at least, that is legal. But Apple isn't required to do it for you.

It might not be illegal, but it does breach apple’s ToS. They expressly prohibit jailbreaking devices on all the agreements you accept when you use their products and services.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I'm unlikely to use side loading on my iPhone but the feature should be there. Call it 'installing' or something new aged like that. The place I *really* want this though is on the iPad.

Just agree to these new Terms of Service where you the user take full responsibility towards exposing your phone at a more insecure state. Oh and, it will severely limit your Apple Care coverage. Or it should.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I suggest you spend some time looking at some of the apps available in Apple's App Store. Look under the sections that show the "Data Used to Track You" and "Data Linked to You" (data that's collected and linked to you) for each app.

If Apple is truly looking out for our privacy, these apps either wouldn't be allowed onto the App Store or they wouldn't be allowed to collected all this data and link it to us.

But this is what we get:

View attachment 2335687

That's a generic full list of possible categories:

Pixelmator actual App Privacy information:

Here's the link on Pixelmator's Site to what they link against:

Legal - Apple Privacy Policy - Apple

www.pixelmator.com

 

[1129846]

Another thing for folk to consider is that the iPhones of your friends and acquaintances almost certainly contain potentially sensitive information about you. Specifically their contacts, calendars, emails, messages and backups. Still okay with aunt Delores being able to install basically anything on her iPhone?

ETA I guess the same could be said if those people own an Android device, so I concede this is probably already a risk.

Multiple iOS apps gain access to all those things.

Also Android just like iOS the apps have to ask permission to access all those items so either way not a good argument.

Same privacy issue no matter the is there.

 

[frenchcamp49er]

So Walmart can now sell their goods at Target, nice

 

[frenchcamp49er]

Apple should pull out of the EU.

 

[Isengardtom]

Apple should pull out of the EU.

Yeah pull out of a market of 450 million
Brilliant idea 👏👏👏

 

[Jim Lahey]

Multiple iOS apps gain access to all those things.

Also Android just like iOS the apps have to ask permission to access all those items so either way not a good argument.

Same privacy issue no matter the is there.

Fair points I guess. But in the end there’s absolutely no way that being able to install completely unvetted software from absolutely anywhere doesn’t increase the chances of nefarious app activity on their devices exposing information about me. And let’s be real, there’s also no chance at all that iOS is bulletproof against such potential attack vectors.

It’s a minor point in the grand scheme perhaps, but for me it would still be a factor of concern. For example I don’t use iCloud messages or iCloud backup, but my messages are already compromised in my contacts’ iCloud backups if they don’t have advanced protection enabled. And that’s with Apple’s own fabled (alleged) security focus.