Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[1129846]

All you seem to be saying here is that the "fix" you want implemented exists on the Android platform, and that it has almost zero effect. If your fix has next to no effect, which is proven overwhelmingly on the android platform, then I wonder at the real purpose of all of this. Are you just wanting your preference to be law while my preference is outlawed? As it stands, your preference exists (Android) and my preference exists (Apple).

Not the same thing. You have to think of iOS and Android more like cities as the cost to switch between them is pretty high. More so leaving Apple. Apple has insanely expenisve lock in cost to leave. Easy to get in hard to leave.

So, your choice is valid and mine isn't. So much so that you're wanting a huge government agency to enforce, by law, your preference, and veto my preference by law. So, not really about "choice," right?

No it allows you to use Apple but not have the hard lock in. You can choose to not use side loading. It have zero affect on you if other use it.

You could "choose" to develop it on the Android platform. That's a choice, no?

That statement alone proves how little you understand anything about software development. Lets see if friends and family use only iOS then Android is not an option. That is even before you get into the fact that swapping over is not that easy in terms of skills and time. I for example have a decade of knowledge in iOS developlent. Swift and objective-c knowledge and very little in terms of Android. Could I learn it yes but it it is a slower process.
That is like asking a brain surgeon to go heart surgery. It is just surgery. They could choose to do it. Not the same thing. It is a specialized skill set.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Not the same thing.

All you're doing here is dismissing my preference and inserting your own.

You have to think of iOS and Android more like cities as the cost to switch between them is pretty high. More so leaving Apple. Apple has insanely expenisve lock in cost to leave. Easy to get in hard to leave.

Why do I "have to think of IOS and Android more like cities?" That's your preferred way of thinking about them. Not mine. In my preference, the benefits of choosing IOS outweigh the costs of choosing IOS. You have a different prefernce, a different cost-benefit analysis than I do. Why is your preference more valid than mine, such that you'd force me, by force of law, to choose your preferred choice?

No it allows you to use Apple but not have the hard lock in. You can choose to not use side loading. It have zero affect on you if other use it.

I disagree. So now what? I'm not saying you shouldn't get your choice; you can choose Android, for all the reasons that matter to you. Only one of us is trying to eliminate choice, and that is you.

That statement alone proves how little you understand anything about software development.

So, your choice must be mandated by law because you're smarter than I am? BTW, I understand software development quite well; why would you assume I don't? In fact, in my choice, software developers make a lot more money.

Lets see if friends and family use only iOS then Android is not an option.

Huh? I have a lot of friends and family who use Android, despite the fact that I use IOS.

That is even before you get into the fact that swapping over is not that easy in terms of skills and time.

I don't want to swap over. I've made my choice. But even if I did, I'm well aware of the costs. I made a choice.

I for example have a decade of knowledge in iOS developlent. Swift and objective-c knowledge and very little in terms of Android. Could I learn it yes but it it is a slower process.

Or Windows. Or Linux. Or any number of coding platforms. So, I shouldn't be able to choose a closed platform because you find it slightly more difficult to code for Android? I honestly don't understand your point here. Are you saying there should, by law, only be one platform? Is that even being proposed in the EU or anywhere?

That is like asking a brain surgeon to go heart surgery. It is just surgery. They could choose to do it. Not the same thing. It is a specialized skill set.

Huh? I don't understand at all what this has to do with sideloading and 3rd Party App stores. But hey, you are free to choose an open or a closed platform, and learn to code for that which you prefer. Or, you could learn both, neither of which is remotely as difficult as becoming a surgeon.

 

[RodThePlod]

The picture of the two of them looks like an episode of Black Mirror.

That picture actually looks AI-generated to me...

 

[Timo_Existencia]

For the "it's about choice" crowd...

Should the law force all software to be hardware agnostic?

Should the law force Apple to build their OS such that it can be loaded on any hardware platform?

 

[jgdeschamps]

I don't think "other" or "third party" stores would be successful. These regulations would just let the developers sell their application(s) directly from their website+payment networks to allow the user download an installer to his/her iPhone or iPad, like with the Mac. No need for other companies or "stores" to control how developers sell their software. When I buy licenses for my Mac applications, I don't use a re-seller website, not even if they have attractive discounts.
However, apps for iPhone are not the same experience as with a Mac and even iPads now, so I think this is overreach from behalf of governments anyways.

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

I cant wait until the iPhones become the ultimate game emulation device.

Virtualization on iPad too maybe? 😊

Let me sideload MacOS on my iPad, and iOS on my Mac! 🤣

 

[1129846]

All you're doing here is dismissing my preference and inserting your own.

No I am not

Why do I "have to think of IOS and Android more like cities?" That's your preferred way of thinking about them. Not mine. In my preference, the benefits of choosing IOS outweigh the costs of choosing IOS. You have a different prefernce, a different cost-benefit analysis than I do. Why is your preference more valid than mine, such that you'd force me, by force of law, to choose your preferred choice?

You can choose that does mean way of viewing it is correct.

I disagree. So now what? I'm not saying you shouldn't get your choice; you can choose Android, for all the reasons that matter to you. Only one of us is trying to eliminate choice, and that is you.
The law here is about pushing side loading. Something if goes out in the wild will not affect you if you choose not to use it.

Since this was on the side loading point saying you disagree with it affecting you. You are welcome to be wrong. Keep pretending that otherwise.
I am willing to bet you think it is for security. If you think the apple app store keeps you safe from security then I have some magic beans to sell you. Give you a hint it doesn't add as much security as you think. Gives you some nice feel good but still holes. Hell side loading if anything would force Apple to up their game at making sure the OS stays secure as the feel good protection is gone.

So, your choice must be mandated by law because you're smarter than I am? BTW, I understand software development quite well; why would you assume I don't? In fact, in my choice, software developers make a lot more money.

I didnt say I was smarter than you. What I said is you know very little about software development and the process and the skills set in it.
I am saying I understand software development a lot better than you.

Huh? I have a lot of friends and family who use Android, despite the fact that I use IOS.

Cool story that was not my point but thank you trying to dance around it and avoid it. I more think you are avoiding the point.

I don't want to swap over. I've made my choice. But even if I did, I'm well aware of the costs. I made a choice.

I am not sure you do understand the cost. You made the choice to live in the Apple town now if you want to leave it is near impossible.

Or Windows. Or Linux. Or any number of coding platforms. So, I shouldn't be able to choose a closed platform because you find it slightly more difficult to code for Android? I honestly don't understand your point here. Are you saying there should, by law, only be one platform? Is that even being proposed in the EU or anywhere?

Again you dont understand software development. You keep proving that point.

Huh? I don't understand at all what this has to do with sideloading and 3rd Party App stores. But hey, you are free to choose an open or a closed platform, and learn to code for that which you prefer. Or, you could learn both, neither of which is remotely as difficult as becoming a surgeon.

You dont understand it because you are breaking it up into little pieces but this goes back to you you dont understand software development and just goes on top of that growing pile of proof you dont have a clue but instead of admit it you break things up to hide the fact you do not understand.


and with that I am done with you as clearly you dont want to understand the details other than it goes against Apple. Would you be the saying the same thing if it was going after Google? My guess is no. I would be repeating the same points as I also feel like Google should be looked at as well and even think the rules on the play store should have some changes as well and they already are looser than Apple.

 

[klasma]

Sure, but that's not Apple's fault, nor Apple's responsibility.

I didn’t say that it is. I responded to the question “Can’t they just jailbreak it?”, to which the answer is “no, not really”.

 

[MNGR]

I'm OK with that as long as the iPhone owner bears responsibility for any adverse consequences that comes to them personally, or their iPhone, as a result.

You realize that from a cyber perspective all these API/interface changes the EU insists on provides another avenue for hackers to attack you. Whether or not YOU use it, the attack surface is there.
And if anything goes wrong, it is Apple that will get blamed and sued.
This is not for me..

 

[MNGR]

For the "it's about choice" crowd...

Should the law force all software to be hardware agnostic?

Should the law force Apple to build their OS such that it can be loaded on any hardware platform?

NO!

 

[Corefile]

Cook should have been summoned to The Hague like other crooks. The EU chief shouldn't go kowtowing to Cupertino on the taxpayer's euro.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

I assume Tim will be there grovelling for clemency.

 

[Mescagnus]

Matching haircuts. Good start!

I'm wondering how much Timmy's tailored suit is worth. Vestager appears to be wearing a bag.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

Cook should have been summoned to The Hague like other crooks. The EU chief shouldn't go kowtowing to Cupertino on the taxpayer's euro.

Cook should be attending the meeting in Nuremberg given the severity of his crimes.

 

[jvchappy]

What changes do they want of Facetime? Apple will never open it up to other platforms. It's made by apple for apple products. I don't get the disconnect

 

[Mescagnus]

I suggest you spend some time looking at some of the apps available in Apple's App Store. Look under the sections that show the "Data Used to Track You" and "Data Linked to You" (data that's collected and linked to you) for each app.

If Apple is truly looking out for our privacy, these apps either wouldn't be allowed onto the App Store or they wouldn't be allowed to collected all this data and link it to us.

But this is what we get:

View attachment 2335687

Is that facebook?

 

[gsurf123]

We have a right to do anything with the hardware WE buy. Apple is too over-controlling over the things we can and cant do.

Excellent point, except you do not own the software that runs on the phone. You only you only have a license to use it.

If you’d like to do whatever you want with your phone, then write your own operating system.

 

[citysnaps]

You realize that from a cyber perspective all these API/interface changes the EU insists on provides another avenue for hackers to attack you. Whether or not YOU use it, the attack surface is there.
And if anything goes wrong, it is Apple that will get blamed and sued.
This is not for me..

You realize? What a condescending way to engage in a conversation.

Of course. That's why I'm personally against side-loading. However... if someone wants to roll the dice side-loading an app (assuming that side-loading capability somehow became mandated), they should be made aware of potential privacy/security risks and press an Acknowledge button before proceeding - as I posted earlier. And accept responsibility for any adverse consequences that may occur.

 

[toobravetosave]

I understand this point of view, but I don't wholly agree. Don't game developers have to pay Sony & Microsoft a fee to list games on their digital marketplaces? I can't make a game for a console and distribute it on the street, just like I can't an iOS.

The concept is the same in my head. I don't see Apple, Google, PlayStation, and Xbox as Gatekeepers to their respective marketplaces. I crossed off Google because I believe they do have third party app stores on Android?

because those are for games and phones are general computing devices that billions of people rely on to function economically in the modern world. and yes google allows third party app stores and side loading.

 

[lovehateapple]

Its simple result, who has the more power/money will win

Unfortunately the government has both more power and more money under the current system.

 

[Xiaojohn]

Success is a crime in EU.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

So, your individual choice should be powerful enough to trump how Apple chooses to do business? How is that feasible? Because I have a different individual choice. So, you and I would cancel each other out, leaving Apple free to operate their business as they choose.

Let's apply your preferece to Spotify. Do you think Spotify should be forced to open their platform? To allow any artist to list their music on Spotify, but use a different payment processor or be able to direct buyers to an alternate store?

I'll be honest, I don't really know what to do. I just feel like tech companies (not Apple, as much) are putting everything in front rather than the user and leaving us to fight for our privacy and such.

Just feeling a bit helpless, you know?

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I am willing to bet you think it is for security.

My preference doesn't need to be explained to you. Or justified to you. The point is I disagree with you. I grant that your preference is valid for you. Can you grant me the same? Or is your preference the only "right" way to think about this issue?

I am saying I understand software development a lot better than you.

OK. How does that invalidate my preference for the Apple Eco System, as is?

Would you be the saying the same thing if it was going after Google?

If the EU were trying to force Google to change their business model to a closed, walled garden approach, I'd be on the side of Google. I understand that there's room for both methods.

 

[coolfactor]

We have a right to do anything with the hardware WE buy. Apple is too over-controlling over the things we can and cant do.

That would be fine in a non-connected world, but when devices are "logged in" to Apple's network, users can't be allowed to do "whatever they want to do".

If a user loads up a malicious app that begins sending out spam through the registered iCloud email address, would that be acceptable?

It's the internet/networking aspect that adds complexity here. Connected devices need to be held to an entirely different standard for security and privacy. Apple's tight control has ensured that such malicious apps are caught before they make it onto user's devices. That's GOOD for us!

Not everybody is as knowledgable and skilled with technology as you might be, so Apple needs to accommodate all types of users. Maybe they need to add an opt-in "Expert" mode to iOS that allows sideloading, with a big flashing message stating the risks.

iOS is about to get messy.

 

[one more]

I bought multiple Apple devices BECAUSE they are not open. I want Apple to lock it down, I had multiple android devices and I have a windows computer. I want to be able to choose Apple.

My understanding is that you will still be able to use your Apple devices just as you use them now, in their “protected mode”. The DMA will just offer us a choice to install something bypassing App Store, as we can do on a Mac.