Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[MNGR]

You realize? What a condescending way to engage in a conversation.

Of course. That's why I'm personally against side-loading. However... if someone wants to roll the dice side-loading an app (assuming that side-loading capability somehow became mandated), they should be made aware of potential privacy/security risks and press an Acknowledge button before proceeding - as I posted earlier. And accept responsibility for any adverse consequences that may occur.

As I have been in the IT/security world for decades I am aware. Are you?
As I tried to point out the mere fact that the EU. may force companies to open interfaces to their hw/sw means that there is another way hackers could potentially affect you, whether or not you sideload.
I expect it is obvious to you that I do not want this.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Which fundamentally changes the way Apple operates, and fundamentally changes the OS.

Sideloading will not.

You can download today: just download an app from any website, trust the (enterprise) developer's certificate and install.

But also, it sets a precedent that the EU will now dictate business practices, rather than the market deciding. So, what's next? Will the EU mandate that IOS must be executable on any hardware developed by any company? Will they mandate that the iPhone must run Android?

Having worked in politics and government most of my professional life, every campaign I ran, every victory I had, was always a first step to a larger goal.

I keep taking steps every year to strengthen my privacy. I've taken rather extreme steps to change the way I live; I left the US, for example, because I don't like the culture there anymore, and wanted to live differently. If I could drop off of the grid entirely, I'd love to do it. Little by little.

It's just perplexing how you claim to strengthen your privacy - but are so much opposed to (EU) "government dictating business practices". Seems so contradictory.

👉 Free-market U.S. capitalism and has created the most comprehensive data collection, mining and profiling industry in human history. And probably no ("free-world") government has undertaken more to regulate and curtail these practices than the EU - which at least tries to give some control back to the consumer by, yes, dictating companies (some) of their business practices.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Sideloading will not.

You can download today: just download an app from any website, trust the (enterprise) developer's certificate and install.


It's just perplexing how you claim to strengthen your privacy - but are so much opposed to (EU) "government dictating business practices". Seems so contradictory.

👉 Free-market U.S. capitalism and has created the most comprehensive data collection, mining and profiling industry in human history. And probably no ("free-world") government has undertaken more to regulate and curtail these practices than the EU - which at least tries to give some control back to the consumer by, yes, dictating companies (some) of their business practices.

If you're happy with the actions of the EU, I'm fine with that. It's not my country and I recognize that all countries have the right to dictate who can sell what products and how in their country. I wish you the best.

 

[AppliedMicro]

But in the end there’s absolutely no way that being able to install completely unvetted software from absolutely anywhere doesn’t increase the chances of nefarious app activity on their devices exposing information about me

Installing unvetted software from anywhere is possible today.
Maybe not absolutely anywhere - but it's not as if they're checking much on use of their enterprise developer certificates.

The EU is not a smart as they think they are...

They might have pressured Apple into changing port to USB C... but they forgot to insist on full USB 3.1 speeds.

They didn't pressure Apple - they mandated it by law.
And it was never about USB speeds or data transfer - it was about a charging port.

Wonder what would happen if Apple just said "no" and pulled sales of items for a while?
Perhaps the public might revolt against the EU...
Maybe Apple could just sell items online from the UK and grant EU citizens access to AppStore as if they were in the UK?

Apple would be shooting themselves in the foot - and their shareholders would revolt for losing business.
Why you they want to leave billions on the table - when they can just comply and rake them in?

Keep in mind that Apple's phones are premium products in the E.U. - they don't enjoy the same "Apple is the best - Android is for the poor who can't afford it" status they may have elsewhere.

Maybe Apple could just sell items online from the UK

Your store being located outside of the European Economic Area doesn't make you escape regulation - especially not if you're targeting your sales towards the EU market.

 

[AppliedMicro]

If you're happy with the actions of the EU, I'm fine with that. It's not my country and I recognize that all countries have the right to dictate who can sell what products and how in their country. I wish you the best.

I'm unhappy with a lot of things about the E.U.
But the installation of mobile apps on smartphones should not be gatekept by a duopoly of U.S. companies.

Edited.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I'm unhappy with a lot of things about the E.U.
But the installation of mobile apps on smartphones should be gatekept by a duopoly of U.S. companies.

So maybe the EU should subsidize/support the develolpment of an alternate mobile system. Give EU citizens a tax break for buying it, and using.

 

[ifxf]

Another thing for folk to consider is that the iPhones of your friends and acquaintances almost certainly contain potentially sensitive information about you. Specifically their contacts, calendars, emails, messages and backups. Still okay with aunt Delores being able to install basically anything on her iPhone? 🤔

ETA I guess the same could be said if those people own an Android device, so I concede this is probably already a risk.

yes, it is her choice. They could have an Android with your same info. Any of your emails are sent through multiple systems any of which can be cracked.

 

[makitango]

I'm unhappy with a lot of things about the E.U.
But the installation of mobile apps on smartphones should be gatekept by a duopoly of U.S. companies.

No it should not. As an EU citizen, I am against that and as the regulations go, your dirty business practices are uninvited here.

So maybe the EU should subsidize/support the develolpment of an alternate mobile system. Give EU citizens a tax break for buying it, and using.

We will not do any such ridiculous government OS thing.

Any companies trying to sell their stuff here have to abide rules, just as you have to when you visit foreign countries.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

No it should not. As an EU citizen, I am against that and as the regulations go, your dirty business practices are uninvited here.

We will not do any such ridiculous government OS thing.

Any companies trying to sell their stuff here have to abide rules, just as you have to when you visit foreign countries.

I think you misunderstood two different people in the same post.

 

[makitango]

Another thing for folk to consider is that the iPhones of your friends and acquaintances almost certainly contain potentially sensitive information about you. Specifically their contacts, calendars, emails, messages and backups. Still okay with aunt Delores being able to install basically anything on her iPhone? 🤔

ETA I guess the same could be said if those people own an Android device, so I concede this is probably already a risk.

Your aunt Dolores is probably already doing a better job at protecting your contact details than so-called industry professionals like LinkedIn or Adobe, and the pile just keeps on growing.

All the data your contacts have on you, companies have more of that and fail consistently with having it leaked or play funnily with you over „lrgitimate interest“.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

Apple should have even shown up, just a formal letter with a simple “No” written

 

[Sebalto]

We have a right to do anything with the hardware WE buy. Apple is too over-controlling over the things we can and cant do.

If this was a big enough issue for you then you would go to a competitor that offered you this freedom.

 

[Sebalto]

The EU trying to justify their own existence again. If sideloading was of such a pressing concern then consumers would defect to Android, which would meet their consumer requirements perfectly in that respect.

 

[Sebalto]

For a long time defenders of Apple have been stating that sideloading apps has the potential to be extremely problematic because apps would be hosted by a 3rd party who may not do their own checks to see if what they are hosting is legitimate or a virus/malicious app. The thing is, that could well be the case BUT the point that keeps on getting missed is when it comes to consumerism, the EU is all about customer choice, let the customer decide what is best for them, not the manufacturer. The problem the EU see's with Apple is that Apple is the one that gets to decide what is and is not good for the customer, the customer not being able to make their own choice(s).

"The EU is all about customer choice"

If that were true, they would have observed the revealed preferences of millions of consumers and realise that if sideloading was huge deal people would have moved en masse to android years ago.

 

[AppliedMicro]

No it should not. As an EU citizen, I am against that and as the regulations go, your dirty business practices are uninvited here.

Sorry - accidentally forgot the (most crucial) word „not“ in my post above. 😅

If sideloading was of such a pressing concern then consumers would defect to Android, which would meet their consumer requirements perfectly in that respect

Sideloading isn’t the only fact I consider when buying my smartphone.

If that were true, they would have observed the revealed preferences of millions of consumers and realise that if sideloading was huge deal people would have moved en masse to android years ago.

It’s not only about about end consumers - it’s also about developers (who are also customers of Apple).

When developers can offer their apps elsewhere cheaper than through Apple’s App Store (or through Apple‘s App Store at competitive commission rates rather than unilaterally set ones) that in turn benefits consumers.

You could argue that a duopoly of mobile operating systems has some benefits to consumers (app developers focusing on them and rather than split between a dozen operating systems). But monopolies on distribution of compatible „accessories“ (or apps in this case) hardly ever benefit consumers. Especially when they’re only working with (on) core products of which there is a lack of choice and barriers to switch in the first place.

 

[makitango]

"The EU is all about customer choice"

If that were true, they would have observed the revealed preferences of millions of consumers and realise that if sideloading was huge deal people would have moved en masse to android years ago.

It is not about making sure that just one offering abides the law, it is about that every entity follows the law. Tim‘s attempt to buy the commissioner will not work, we are a free market as well but not *that* free.

The EU expects a bike to be able to have its training wheels removed if people want to, but people have all the choice they want by keeping them on. Not everyone of us just wants to show off their shiny bikes, some of us actually want to get somewhere with it.

Apple should have even shown up, just a formal letter with a simple “No” written

He‘s the one begging to please the board.

I think you misunderstood two different people in the same post.

There was an edit for exactly that reason but you are kind enough to ignore that I reckon.
On top of that, a commissioned OS is not what the EU citizens want but I guess you enjoy ignoring that fact as well.

The EU is executing its citizens‘ wishes here and there is nothing that Apple‘s social media squad lurking on MR can do about it.

 

[AppliedMicro]

"The EU is all about customer choice"

If that were true, they would have observed the revealed preferences of millions of consumers and realise that if sideloading was huge deal people would have moved en masse to android years ago.

Who says they haven’t observed that? 🤷🏻‍♀️

People in Europe have in fact moved en masse to Android: Android has more than twice he number of iOS users in the EU - it’s about 70% market share for Android compared to only about 30% for iOS.

👉 If sideloading was the real reason for that, the EU can‘t mandate sideloading on iOS quickly enough! To ensure that iOS will be a viable alternative to Android and prevent an Android monopoly. How else would the maintain competition and consumer choice in mobile operating systems?

 

[lartola]

The EU trying to justify their own existence again. If sideloading was of such a pressing concern then consumers would defect to Android, which would meet their consumer requirements perfectly in that respect.

Consumers do defect to Android in the EU and most of the world, Apple’s market share everywhere except the US is no more than 30%. However, that’s certainly not due to sideloading, it’s mostly for budget reasons.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

Yall think big gov is cares about “the customers” and that’s why they want to be able to side load software into iOS??


El o el

 

[Sebalto]

Who says they haven’t observed that? 🤷🏻‍♀️

People in Europe have in fact moved en masse to Android: Android has more than twice he number of iOS users in the EU - it’s about 70% market share for Android compared to only about 30% for iOS.

👉 If sideloading was the real reason for that, the EU can‘t mandate sideloading on iOS quickly enough! To ensure that iOS will be a viable alternative to Android and prevent an Android monopoly. How else would the maintain competition and consumer choice in mobile operating systems?

Erm, they haven't observed that because it hasn't happened. iOS use has grown in the EU, not declined - their is no identifiable trend in anyone moving to Android, and certainly not because of anything like sideloading.

What you appear to be doing is projecting your niche consumer needs onto millions of other people. If a product does not meet your requirements, purchase one that does. Apple is the biggest selling phone brand in the EU, and having a supranational entity mandate that it incorporates a feature that will be utilised by about 0.003% of it's user base isn't going to alter that.

 

[Sebalto]

Consumers do defect to Android in the EU and most of the world, Apple’s market share everywhere except the US is no more than 30%. However, that’s certainly not due to sideloading, it’s mostly for budget reasons.

Do some research before you post nonsense.

iOS use has grown in the last 6 years. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone has defected in any meaningful numbers. In any case, users switching from Android to iOS would cancel this out.

Plus, there are many countries where Apple has 50%+ market share (Japan has 70%), which is quite an achievement considering there is only one iOS device on the market and many brands of Android devices.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I for one would like the EU to force Tesla to let me run Game Boy Advance OS as their self-driving car’s OS. Why are they deciding what OS or AI my own car self-drives on? I want choice.

Then I want the EU to force all piano manufacturers the option for consumers to remove or add any keys of their choice. I just hate G#. They all gotta go.

Last but not least, I demand EU to force publishers to allow me to pick how a book is written and published. I don’t like punctuations. I have right to the choice to remove that in all books I buy.

Thank you 😌

How to demonstrate you don’t know what the difference is between the word you use 😂.

1. You are free to do that, nothing stopping you from inventing the first Game boy Tesla os
2. You can also already do that, nothing stops you from removing G#
3. And you can already do that. You can publish your own book without punctuation if you want 😂

Apple on the other hand is actively in your way to do what you want with your lawfully acquired property

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I think Apple is slowly, but surely, moving away from the Mac model.

The question is who decides. Most who support the EU here keep saying "it's about consumer choice."

And yet, if a music artist wants to use a 3rd party payment system, or direct listeners to their own store, the EU doesn't force Spotify to open up their platform.

I mostly say this is a matter of preference, and agree that the EU can set whatever rules they want. But I become suspicious when the rules are selectively applied. I start to doubt that the motivation is "consumer choice."

The thing is on the AppStore you have in app purchases and direct consumer access. You purchase things.

In Spotify you don’t purchase anything, there nothing to sell as it’s a streaming platform you pay ether a monthly fee to access or use advertising to access the music library.

Spotify isn’t a store anymore than a radio station or Apple Music is a store.

The iTunes/app store is one tho.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Right. So, you want the app store to be controlled with a tighter fist.

I'd like that too.

In fact, I want to whole OS to be controlled with a tighter fist. In the era of privacy and data, I want to be able to buy a device that is as closed as possible, while still providing a great choice of software applications.

I don't think the EU has my best interest at heart.

There multiple android phones that offer you that.

 

[AppliedMicro]

their is no identifiable trend in anyone moving to Android, and certainly not because of anything like sideloading.

Certainly not because of sideloading.

"The EU is all about customer choice"

If that were true, they would have observed the revealed preferences of millions of consumers and realise that if sideloading was huge deal people would have moved en masse to android years ago.

Consumers may (and mostly do) choose their smartphone brand and/or operating system for reasons other than sideloading. Still, 30% is a large share of the market.

And the E.U. - being about about customer choice and competition - will enable these consumers the choice of where to download and install their apps from.