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Except that pretty much nowhere on the web people blame Microsoft for any Foxconn-related problems even though their production line was associated with a specific incident and they haven't shown any sort of initiative that Apple has shown. Microsoft is in the more wrong than Apple and nobody talks about it, why?

Because Apple generates media hits and is a successful company...so people hate successful people and companies.

Funny how we're not hearing anything about these companies and their exploitation and lack of forcing change on Foxconn..many of these used Foxconn way before Apple did...and did nothing...but hey...they get a free pass.

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[27]
Apple Inc. (United States)[28]
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[29]
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[28]
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)[30]
Sharp (Japan)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[31]
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)
 
Because Apple generates media hits and is a successful company...so people hate successful people and companies.

Funny how we're not hearing anything about these companies and their exploitation and lack of forcing change on Foxconn..many of these used Foxconn way before Apple did...and did nothing...but hey...they get a free pass.

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[27]
Apple Inc. (United States)[28]
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[29]
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[28]
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)[30]
Sharp (Japan)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[31]
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

funnier yet is how personally you're taking that they haven't and that Apple has.
 
Because Apple generates media hits and is a successful company...so people hate successful people and companies.

Funny how we're not hearing anything about these companies and their exploitation and lack of forcing change on Foxconn..many of these used Foxconn way before Apple did...and did nothing...but hey...they get a free pass.

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[27]
Apple Inc. (United States)[28]
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[29]
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[28]
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)[30]
Sharp (Japan)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[31]
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

No because apple put a target on themselves. They posted their "Supplier Responsibility" then NYT made an article about them not following what they preach. Not only that on their apples own page they admit that they only have 74% compliance. Why not 90% or hmm 100% I mean its THEIR POLICY. Not ours, not amazons, not Sharp or Samsung.

And could someone please post information about other companies supplier labor practices over in china? Is it better or worse?
 
funnier yet is how personally you're taking that they haven't and that Apple has.

According to the media they haven't...otherwise we would have had a 3 part series on them right?
No because apple put a target on themselves. They posted their "Supplier Responsibility" then NYT made an article about them not following what they preach. Not only that on their apples own page they admit that they only have 74% compliance. Why not 90% or hmm 100% I mean its THEIR POLICY. Not ours, not amazons, not Sharp or Samsung.

Ah because Apple does the right thing and makes themselves transparent, that gives the other companies who hide or refuse to report it get a free pass. I guess your cool with Amazon, Sharp or others having no responsibility practices and are cool with it.

I see how your logic works.
 
funnier yet is how personally you're taking that they haven't and that Apple has.

You can visit those companies' websites and look at their labour outsourcing reports, etc. None of them is as transparent as Apple. It's not that hard to find that at least Apple is doing something and making information available.
 
According to the media they haven't...otherwise we would have had a 3 part series on them right?

Sorry - since when does the media have to be fair. They just have to be accurate. There's no law providing "equal time" for things like this. They just can't write anything libelous. And I'm guessing if what they reported was inaccurate or false - Apple would be suing the NYT. I can say this with certainty given Apple's litigious nature.

----------

You can visit those companies' websites and look at their labour outsourcing reports, etc. None of them is as transparent as Apple. It's not that hard to find that at least Apple is doing something and making information available.


Ask yourself why they are doing it. In response to what. Companies don't typically like to be transparent about anything. Unless there's a reason. Ask yourself what the reason is for their transparency.
 
Sorry - since when does the media have to be fair. They just have to be accurate. There's no law providing "equal time" for things like this. They just can't write anything libelous. And I'm guessing if what they reported was inaccurate or false - Apple would be suing the NYT. I can say this with certainty given Apple's litigious nature.

Considering all the unnamed sources, I think we all know that the media has been far from accurate for a long time. They are nothing more now then a business like Apple is and their bottom line is getting readers and hits.

Doesn't Obama keep preaching Fair Share on everything...

Shouldn't the Fair Share of blame be going to all those other companies.

That's right, the left-liberal media doesn't like doing that....
 
According to the media they haven't...otherwise we would have had a 3 part series on them right?


Ah because Apple does the right thing and makes themselves transparent, that gives the other companies who hide or refuse to report it get a free pass. I guess your cool with Amazon, Sharp or others having no responsibility practices and are cool with it.

I see how your logic works.

The NYT piece is about apple, why do you keep bringing other companies up? Why isnt apple following their own rules? Again these are not rules samsung, sharp or amazon have levied.. Apple did this.
 
Tim says "We will continue to dig deeper, and we will undoubtedly find more issues. What we will not do -- and never have done -- is stand still or turn a blind eye to problems in our supply chain. On this you have my word. "

Umm, Apple already did when there were suicides at Foxxconn before.

Unsurprising that Apple have gone into PR overdrive, but they are a business which is in the business of lowering costs and making profit. To act as if they give a rats behind about the low paid, overworked people in China is just pathetic. They use those factories because it keeps costs down, productivity high and profits equally high.

That's capitalism, driven by consumerism, wrapped up in feel good marketing.

Apple are not the only one's guilty of using such factories and endorsing by default the practices in them, but they do go out of their way to make out that they'll actually do something about it. So when they don't, the criticism is justified.
 
No because apple put a target on themselves. They posted their "Supplier Responsibility" then NYT made an article about them not following what they preach. Not only that on their apples own page they admit that they only have 74% compliance. Why not 90% or hmm 100% I mean its THEIR POLICY. Not ours, not amazons, not Sharp or Samsung.

They didn't put a 'target' on themselves, it would be far easier for them to have a meaningless PR blurb on their website about how they 'care', with some touchy feel stock photos.

What percentage is realistically achievable at any given point in time, I'll leave that for more experienced people to discuss. Keep in mind that these are separate companies, not Apple divisions. At any given point in time there will be companies trying to cut corners to make more money, the important thing is Apple's response- do they drop them, demand rapid improvements, or lightly slap their hand?

And could someone please post information about other companies supplier labor practices over in china? Is it better or worse?

That Apple has a public policy at all and conducts audits and makes public reports available (summarized or not) probably means that their suppliers have better labor practices than other companies.
 
Considering all the unnamed sources, I think we all know that the media has been far from accurate for a long time. They are nothing more now then a business like Apple is and their bottom line is getting readers and hits.

Doesn't Obama keep preaching Fair Share on everything...

Shouldn't the Fair Share of blame be going to all those other companies.

That's right, the left-liberal media doesn't like doing that....

So easy to sling the "left-liberal" crap around. ZZZZZZzzzzz.

Pretty much all you wrote is irrelevant to my post.

Again - the New York Times is not obligated to write a story that speaks about every company. The article was about Apple. For better or worse. Life's not fair.

And again - if there were LIES or falsehoods there - Apple would be all over them. I'm not a big fan of Roger Moore's documentaries. But it's pretty telling that he's never been found guilty of slander.

Are you suggesting that the NYT should have profiled every company that uses Foxconn? The what? Why shouldn't they write articles about every Chinese factory American companies use? And where does that end. Why shouldn't they write articles about every company and every factory around the world that American companies use.

Understand? They aren't obligated to be fair. They are obligated to report news accurately.
 
Besides, I think all of these articles have always explicitly mentioned that almost all major electronics/computer companies manufacture in China.

Not sure what 'liberal bias' would have to do with specifically pointing out Apple anyway, vs. Dell/HP/Samsung/etc.

So easy to sling the "left-liberal" crap around. ZZZZZZzzzzz.

Pretty much all you wrote is irrelevant to my post.

Again - the New York Times is not obligated to write a story that speaks about every company. The article was about Apple. For better or worse. Life's not fair.

And again - if there were LIES or falsehoods there - Apple would be all over them. I'm not a big fan of Roger Moore's documentaries. But it's pretty telling that he's never been found guilty of slander.

Are you suggesting that the NYT should have profiled every company that uses Foxconn? The what? Why shouldn't they write articles about every Chinese factory American companies use? And where does that end. Why shouldn't they write articles about every company and every factory around the world that American companies use.

Understand? They aren't obligated to be fair. They are obligated to report news accurately.
 
They didn't put a 'target' on themselves, it would be far easier for them to have a meaningless PR blurb on their website about how they 'care', with some touchy feel stock photos.

What percentage is realistically achievable at any given point in time, I'll leave that for more experienced people to discuss. Keep in mind that these are separate companies, not Apple divisions. At any given point in time there will be companies trying to cut corners to make more money, the important thing is Apple's response- do they drop them, demand rapid improvements, or lightly slap their hand?



That Apple has a public policy at all and conducts audits and makes public reports available (summarized or not) probably means that their suppliers have better labor practices than other companies.

Wow, couldn't have said it better myself! Then again, I'm not a native speaker of English by any means. :D
 
So easy to sling the "left-liberal" crap around. ZZZZZZzzzzz.

Pretty much all you wrote is irrelevant to my post.

Again - the New York Times is not obligated to write a story that speaks about every company. The article was about Apple. For better or worse. Life's not fair.

And again - if there were LIES or falsehoods there - Apple would be all over them. I'm not a big fan of Roger Moore's documentaries. But it's pretty telling that he's never been found guilty of slander.

Are you suggesting that the NYT should have profiled every company that uses Foxconn? The what? Why shouldn't they write articles about every Chinese factory American companies use? And where does that end. Why shouldn't they write articles about every company and every factory around the world that American companies use.

Understand? They aren't obligated to be fair. They are obligated to report news accurately.

Some of us believe that they have an obligation to be fair and accurate.

And yes, I think the title of the piece should have accurately been something to the effect of "In China, Human Costs Are Built Into Your Technology"

Why isn't the Xbox brought up? I mean there are hundreds of millions of those things out there made at Foxconn (and those were the Xbox workers who threatened suicide). Why isn't the Kindle talked about...there are millions of those things out there also. So Apple isn't just the only client in there with a huge bit of the manufacturing pie at Foxconn. They are the most visible and bring the best web-hits..that's why the NYT did a piece on it. MS doesn't sell news. Neither does Amazon. Apple gets you hits.

So that's a pretty big set of technology companies to leave out of the condemnation of practices and makes the NYT look like an amateur paper.

And how do you know Apple won't be over them...I guarantee you Apple is pressing them for the unnamed sources...because if they have a non-compete or disclosure, those people will be litigated against.

It's already been pointed out also that the writer is trying to win a Pulitzer with this set of articles...so lets over dramatize.

Besides, I think all of these articles have always explicitly mentioned that almost all major electronics/computer companies manufacture in China.

Not sure what 'liberal bias' would have to do with specifically pointing out Apple anyway, vs. Dell/HP/Samsung/etc.

No...these articles usually mention in a single line of text that other manufacturers use Foxconn. Then move right back to focusing the target on Apple.

If they made the article and issues at Foxconn and broke it down say by 1/4 about Apple, 1/4 MS, 1/4 Amazon and 1/4 HP then the article would be fair and wouldn't just be singling out Apple. All of these other tech companies have major stakes in Foxconn with the Xbox, Kindle, and HP computers being produced there.

That's the difference in fair, accurate and balanced reporting.

The NYT achieved exactly what they wanted. They knew there is a huge Apple following and it would generate buzz. They are doing nothing more then trying to profit from this article on Apple. And they are getting some flak about it not focusing on other tech companies in the article.
 
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You know...Apple has done a metric sh-t ton in improving the working conditions for these people. From where they were 4 years ago to now, it's an absolute night and day comparison...and in a COMMUNIST country.
Apple isn't bound to continue sourcing their components and assembled products from China. The simple fact is that if Apple really wanted to put their nearly 100 billion dollars where their mouth was, they could start moving their production lines to another vendor.

I want you start going to all the factories in America right now that have some sort of labor violation and start your bickering there...because god forbid...no labor violations should EVER occur in the USA.
I am sure their are violations on some scale in the US, but there are also federal labor laws in place to investigate and resolve issues.

Because there are PLENTY of places in America that have working conditions that are pretty rough and worse then the Foxconn lines..whether its shrimp lines or crab lines or recycling lines and so on.
Yes, and the pay scales to the job. Hell I have a friend who goes up to Alaska during salmon season specifically to work on the lines because the pay is fantastic. All the federal labor laws also apply, on top of union collective bargaining agreements. It might be boring, tedious work, but the pay is reflective of that.

The Asian labor force willing to work harder, for longer hours, in more onerous conditions and for considerably less pay than Americans. The American worker is not. That's the American workers problem. If another countries population wants to work hard to get the jobs, then more power to them. Just like Americans don't want to work the fields, the Mexican/Latino workers have no problem doing the labor.
No. You've made that statement several times and it is wholly untrue. As you pointed out just above, there are factories in the US that have similar expectations (long hours, tough work) and if the business supports it, they rarely have a difficult time finding unskilled labor. The problem isn't the type of work, it's what Apple is willing to pay for that labor. If Apple opened a plan in New Mexico assembling say, Apple TV's and paid $15/hr plus benefits, they would have no problem filling positions.

American blue-collar workers for the most part are lazy. So stop blaming Apple for Americans uneducated and unmotivated work force. It been a problem for over the last decade. An entitled population.
A lack of motivated workers isn't the problem. It's that companies like Apple can source products assembled overseas by overworked and underpaid people in factory cities who live bunked up with strangers in dormatories and have a generally low standard of living. Americans and the majority of the rest of the modern countries of this world have much higher standards of living, and as such higher associated costs of living, which results in them demanding greater pay. The work force doesn't drive the industry, the industry drives the workforce. Supply and demand economics apply in the same way to employers as they do to consumers. If there was the demand for process engineers in the US, and the pay was scaled appropriately, we would see an increase in people becoming educated to fill those jobs. The US doesn't have a shortage of labor, the US has a shortage of jobs.

The crux of your argument is that the average unskilled Chinese laborer is willing to work long shifts for little pay. Just because they're willing, doesn't make it right.
 
Some of us believe that they have an obligation to be fair and accurate.

And yes, I think the title of the piece should have accurately been something to the effect of "In China, Human Costs Are Built Into Your Technology"

Why isn't the Xbox brought up? I mean there are hundreds of millions of those things out there made at Foxconn (and those were the Xbox workers who threatened suicide). Why isn't the Kindle talked about...there are millions of those things out there also. So Apple isn't just the only client in there with a huge bit of the manufacturing pie at Foxconn. They are the most visible and bring the best web-hits..that's why the NYT did a piece on it. MS doesn't sell news. Neither does Amazon. Apple gets you hits.

So that's a pretty big set of technology companies to leave out of the condemnation of practices and makes the NYT look like an amateur paper.

And how do you know Apple won't be over them...I guarantee you Apple is pressing them for the unnamed sources...because if they have a non-compete or disclosure, those people will be litigated against.

It's already been pointed out also that the writer is trying to win a Pulitzer with this set of articles...so lets over dramatize.



No...they mention in a single line of text that other manufacturers use Foxconn. Then move right back to focusing the target on Apple.

If they made the article and issues at Foxconn and broke it down say by 1/4 about Apple, 1/4 MS, 1/4 Amazon and 1/4 HP then the article would be fair and wouldn't just be singling out Apple. All of these other text companies have major stakes in Foxconn with the Xbox, Kindle, and HP computers being produced there.

That's the difference in fair, accurate and balanced reporting.

Who are you to dictate how they should write the article. If you don't like how they wrote it - send a letter to the editor.

Did you read the full article. I mean really. The full article. For one - it's not ONE author - there are two. And just because someone on here is convinced they (both authors) are gunning for a pulitzer makes it fact? Ok - I'll just get my news from web forums from now on. Forget the NYT>

And I have no doubt Apple is pressing the NYT for their sources. One - they'll never reveal them and Two - the ones culpable (legally) would be those that violated any NDA - not the NYT. So there's be no lawsuit over the information presented. If anything - they might get brought into court over revealing sources. Very difference.
 
Who are you to dictate how they should write the article. If you don't like how they wrote it - send a letter to the editor.

Did you read the full article. I mean really. The full article. For one - it's not ONE author - there are two. And just because someone on here is convinced they (both authors) are gunning for a pulitzer makes it fact? Ok - I'll just get my news from web forums from now on. Forget the NYT>

And I have no doubt Apple is pressing the NYT for their sources. One - they'll never reveal them and Two - the ones culpable (legally) would be those that violated any NDA - not the NYT. So there's be no lawsuit over the information presented. If anything - they might get brought into court over revealing sources. Very difference.

Who are you to dictate how Apple should run their business and practices. Because that is what you all are doing here.

Who are you to dictate how China should run their business and practices. Because that is what you all are doing here.

It's an American bias that they think they know what is best for everyone in the world. They don't.

If you don't like how they do business - send a letter to Tim Cook or don't buy their products.

But again make sure you keep the hypocrisy to the max and make sure you buy nothing and use nothing that is made in Asian countries.

Obviously the ones that are culpable are the ex-employees who have the NDA. Tell us something we don't know.


The crux of your argument is that the average unskilled Chinese laborer is willing to work long shifts for little pay. Just because they're willing, doesn't make it right.

Again, you are taking your values and morals and placing them on a society and people you have nothing to do with. Why aren't you up in arms about Asia's 6 day work week and the high suicide rates in Japan due to stress from school and working and succeeding. It sounds like you know what is best for everyone in the world.
 
Regarding this point- it's actually not that simple to just move production to another vendor in another country, in fact it would be impossible to do in a short period of time- Steve Jobs said it himself:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all

But this particular aspect has nothing to do with workers condition, it is about the massive manufacturing infrastructure in China (well treated or not.)

Moving to another country wouldn't eliminate the problem either, there would still be companies trying to cut costs and governments willing to overlook it for the 'greater good'.

Apple isn't bound to continue sourcing their components and assembled products from China. The simple fact is that if Apple really wanted to put their nearly 100 billion dollars where their mouth was, they could start moving their production lines to another vendor.
 
Regarding this point- it's actually not that simple to just move production to another vendor in another country, in fact it would be impossible to do in a short period of time- Steve Jobs said it himself:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all

But this particular aspect has nothing to do with workers condition, it is about the massive manufacturing infrastructure in China (well treated or not.)

Moving to another country wouldn't eliminate the problem either, there would still be companies trying to cut costs and governments willing to overlook it for the 'greater good'.

You can't explain facts to them Max...it has already been brought up a ton of times that the infrastructure in China and their ability to make quick changes cannot be done here.
 
Who are you to dictate how Apple should run their business and practices. Because that is what you all are doing here.

Who are you to dictate how China should run their business and practices. Because that is what you all are doing here.

It's an American bias that they think they know what is best for everyone in the world. They don't.

If you don't like how they do business - send a letter to Tim Cook or don't buy their products. But again make sure you keep the hypocrisy to the max and make sure you buy nothing and use nothing that is made in Asian countries.

Obviously the ones that are culpable are the ex-employees who have the NDA. Tell us something we don't know.




Again, you are taking your values and morals and placing them on a society and people you have nothing to do with. Why aren't you up in arms about Asia's 6 day work week and the high suicide rates in Japan due to stress from school and working and succeeding. It sounds like you know what is best for everyone in the world.

Well for one - I am a stockholder. So I believe that gives me the right to question how Apple runs their business.

I never said anything about how China should run their businesses

I never said I knew what was best. I said that I would like Apple to keep good on their "manifesto"

I already have sent a letter to Tim Cook.


Thanks for the drama though.
 
Regarding this point- it's actually not that simple to just move production to another vendor in another country, in fact it would be impossible to do in a short period of time- Steve Jobs said it himself:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all

But this particular aspect has nothing to do with workers condition, it is about the massive manufacturing infrastructure in China (well treated or not.)

Moving to another country wouldn't eliminate the problem either, there would still be companies trying to cut costs and governments willing to overlook it for the 'greater good'.

You can't explain facts to them Max...it has already been brought up a ton of times that the infrastructure in China and their ability to make quick changes cannot be done here.

You mean impossible to do if they want to keep making money hand over fist? But then again, no one is suggesting they move out of China either.
 
If they made the article and issues at Foxconn and broke it down say by 1/4 about Apple, 1/4 MS, 1/4 Amazon and 1/4 HP then the article would be fair and wouldn't just be singling out Apple. All of these other tech companies have major stakes in Foxconn with the Xbox, Kindle, and HP computers being produced there.

Apple is one of the only companies where people are waiting out the door to buy their products, so there is tremendous effort by manufacturers to fulfill those orders. No one is rousing workers at the crack of dawn and asking for double shfts because we need more Dell STREAKS pronto!!!

I'm not blaming Apple by the way on this. But Apple's popularity and legendary fandom makes them a logical entry point into an article about where all this stuff is made.

I do agree that it needs to be explicitly clear in all of these articles that its not just about Apple, all companies contract out to Chinese manufacturers. Whether said articles are clear enough, is debatable.
 
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