Time Capsule Not Using Server-Grade Hard Drive As Advertised?

[OldCorpse]

There is no question that Apple did this purely for marketing, and it's deceptive in that they wanted customers to believe they were getting something better than bog standard drives - otherwise, why mention with a big flourish "SERVER GRADE OMG!!!!!11ONE!UNO!!!" when it is just a consumer drive. And fact is, they are not getting anything better (in the 1TB version). I for one am disappointed. I actually assumed these drives were better than other backup solutions using drives out there... which was Apple's intention, and it made me consider the Time Capsule. Now that I know this, I'll just go with my original plan and roll my own with actual enterprise class HDD. What really disappoints me is that Apple would stoop to such tactics - it means I CANNOT trust them, and I must constantly be on the lookout for where they are trying to rip me off... I expect that when I walk into a used car lot and encounter a used car salesman, but I never expected that from Apple. Live and learn.

 

[dooyou]

But they're a business! What else should there slogan be? "Forget profits... we're friends!"?

That's not the point. Sure i buy what i want, thats my and everybody's decision. i'm only discuss here about a few points, not more!

and sorry, yes apple is a company and business is everything. but we are the customers, we are the people who are buying those goods.

that's only my opinion as a customer. 2 years warranty would be great. but they don't care.

i cannot understand why so many people are defending apple.

 

[KissStephanie]

Why is no one talking about the fact that Apple didn't actually put an Enterprise grade HD in the machine?

What makes it a server grade hard drive? According to the pdf of this drive from Hitachi's web site, it is in fact recommended for servers. This is the drive that I expected inside Time Capsule considering the price of it. The Apple base station costs $179, so what were people expecting for the extra $120 for a 500 GB hard drive? I personally expected a hard drive that is recommended for server use, and this drive is according to Hitachi.

 

[Smaugg]

A lot of over-reaction here. If Hitachi says it's suitable for a server, Apple is perfectly entitled to call it "server grade". End of story. Unless of course anyone can find a definition of "server grade" which contradicts this.

Right on! "server grade" doesn't actually mean anything. One should always read product literature critically.

 

[Wild-Bill]

Then don't.

What does that have to do with anything? By that logic, Hyundai makes better cars than Lexus. Are you going to really try to argue that?

Argue what???? That buying a peripheral that includes a hard drive with only a one year warranty is dumb?

What does Hyundai and Lexus have to do with anything? Anything less than a 3-year warranty on a hard drive is just plain unacceptable, IMO. How do I come to that conclusion? Well, most drive manufacturers offer a 3-year warranty on their drives, with some offering 5-year warranties.

But by all means, go ahead and buy your Time Capsule. Meanwhile I'll be storing my valuable data on drives that have a 3 or 5 year warranty.

 

[addicted44]

Yes, because Apple's target customer is engineers and (IT) product managers



Yes, yet another gold nugget: This product is targeted the IT product managers or engineers, not the average consumer.

You are misunderstanding me. All I am trying to say is that Apple has given an objective (and quantifiable) basis for why they consider these hard drives "server grade". The people who are saying that it is not server grade are not basing it on the qualities of the product itself, but rather on the basis of who Hitachi is marketing it to. My claim is that who the product is being marketed to does not determine the quality, or "server gradedness" of a product.

Additionally, I am claiming that Apple's criteria are not pulled out of the hat, but are based on standard industry metrics, i.e. probable life time. There is no way to predict or estimate the exact lifetime of any drive, so in any industry, so the probably lifetime of a drive is a very good way to objectively measure the grade of the hard drive, and by that good standard, these drives score better than most other drives, and are on par with a lot of drives that are installed in servers (excluding the Deskstars that are themselves installed in servers).

The military comparison was to illustrate that what market a product caters to (in my example, the military) in no way affects the inherent quality of the product, and so the fact that Hitachi sells these drives to consumers has no bearing on whether or not they are server-grade. It would, however, be reasonable to say, based on the fact that they are sold to consumers, that it is a consumer product. However, its being a consumer product does not either imply that it cannot be an industry grade product.

(Wow, that came out way more convoluted than I hoped. Blame all the caffeine!)

 

[OllyW]

Meanwhile I'll be storing my valuable data on drives that have a 3 or 5 year warranty.

If a drive does fail you will still lose the data, the warranty will only cover the replacement drive.

 

[addicted44]

There is no question that Apple did this purely for marketing, and it's deceptive in that they wanted customers to believe they were getting something better than bog standard drives - otherwise, why mention with a big flourish "SERVER GRADE OMG!!!!!11ONE!UNO!!!" when it is just a consumer drive.

Just because a hard-drive is sold to consumers does not mean that it cannot meet the requirements of being server-grade. E.g. (and I have used a similar example before, which was misunderstood, so i hope this one isn't) OS X was certified as being military grade a few years ago (i dont know if this was a certification, but OS X was definitely recommended by the military. For the sake of argument lets assume that OS X was certified "military grade"). However, apple also sells OS X to regular Joe Schmoe consumers. The fact that it sells this to consumers does not mean that OS X is no longer military grade. It can be BOTH.

Essentially, you are conflating 2 different properties of the product. The server-grade is a measure of the inherent standards of the product (in this particular case, MTBF). However, the "consumer hard drive" you are referring to is a measure of whom the product is being sold to, and has no bearing on the quality of the product itself. If a non-server grade hard drive (based on MTBF being less than the 1 Million Hours, say 10000 hours) is sold to be used in IBM's bay servers, instead of consumers, it would not make the drive "server-grade". The product would be sold to be used in servers, changing the market, however, the quality of the product would not have changed at all.

 

[diamond.g]

Let's see. $299 for a 500 GB wireless network attached storage device. What else would that be if not entry level? I suppose it's possible to imagine someone foolish enough to think this is a high end enterprise storage device, but I can't imagine anyone believing that.

You were naming Routers. That was why I asked about how the TC is entry level. The price sure doesn't make it entry level.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Meh. Who cares. Its typical Apple marketing FUD. the concept of "server grade" is BS to begin with. Most "server grade" drives revolve around RAID and stupidly fast I/O via either SCSI or SAS. Neither of which are present in Time Capsule and other then RAID 1 would be wasted on such a device. MTBF is almost NEVER better then traditional hard drives because that is what the meaning, or the traditional meaning of RAID is. The disks are the same and the actuator heads are the same. More cache and better I/O. That's all.

I stopped giving a crap about Apple's marketing FUD with WWDC in '06 with the "hidden features" of Leopard that MS would steal. Thanks Apple but you can take your hyperbole and shove it.

Just because a hard-drive is sold to consumers does not mean that it cannot meet the requirements of being server-grade. E.g. (and I have used a similar example before, which was misunderstood, so i hope this one isn't) OS X was certified as being military grade a few years ago (i dont know if this was a certification, but OS X was definitely recommended by the military. For the sake of argument lets assume that OS X was certified "military grade"). However, apple also sells OS X to regular Joe Schmoe consumers. The fact that it sells this to consumers does not mean that OS X is no longer military grade. It can be BOTH.

Essentially, you are conflating 2 different properties of the product. The server-grade is a measure of the inherent standards of the product (in this particular case, MTBF). However, the "consumer hard drive" you are referring to is a measure of whom the product is being sold to, and has no bearing on the quality of the product itself. If a non-server grade hard drive (based on MTBF being less than the 1 Million Hours, say 10000 hours) is sold to be used in IBM's bay servers, instead of consumers, it would not make the drive "server-grade". The product would be sold to be used in servers, changing the market, however, the quality of the product would not have changed at all.

The difference being military grade traditionally means the hardware is hardened to withstand extreme environmental conditions and abuse. In this case server grade is a term Apple pretty much made up from scratch. Do a google search. See what you find. Its like me stating my sandwich is a class 4 sandwich. Nothing can touch my class 4 sandwich because it is the highest grade of sandwich out there and all other sandwiches must kneel before my sandwich. Its marketing FUD pure and simple. Which should not be a surprise to anyone who is familiar with Apple.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Meh. Who cares. Its typical Apple marketing FUD.

FUD means "fear, uncertainty and doubt." This technique is intended to cause buyer remorse in advance, to cause you to not buy a product now or at all because it might not perform up to the advertised specifications, or because the company who made it won't be around to support it, or because something better might be coming along tomorrow. I've never known Apple to practice FUD. In fact, if there's any FUD going around about Time Capsule...

 

[stevegmu]

If these drives are not really server-grade, and they are used in Xserves, does that mean Xserves really aren't servers?

 

[matticus008]

Is it a contradiction that Seagate says that the Barracuda consumer grade 500 GB drive is suitable for "low cost servers", and Apple chooses the Barracuda ES enterprise drive instead?

No. How is it a contradiction that one drive exceeds what is advertised by using an unannounced enterprise-grade drive? How does the drive in one have any impact on the rating of the drive in the other?

Given that the OEM price difference between the 500GB ES and the 1TB Ultrastar is greater than the price difference between the two Time Capsule models, it's unrealistic to expect that hardware here, particularly given that enterprise-grade hardware was never promised or implied. Before the stupid product launched, Apple said it would use the same drives as their xServes, which, of course, are Deskstars. Those Deskstars are used in servers all over the place and are marketed for all servers except enterprise-class servers.

Only on the Internet would someone complain about getting more than promised on one model and use it as a reason to complain about getting only what was promised on another.

 

[BenRoethig]

Apple is putting desktop-grade drives in their server line, and thereby claiming that they are putting server grade hard drives in the time capsule.

Instead of putting everyone's mind at ease I think Apple just told everyone that they're really cheap.

 

[blackstone]

FUD means "fear, uncertainty and doubt." This technique is intended to cause buyer remorse in advance, to cause you to not buy a product now or at all because it might not perform up to the advertised specifications, or because the company who made it won't be around to support it, or because something better might be coming along tomorrow. I've never known Apple to practice FUD. In fact, if there's any FUD going around about Time Capsule...

IJ Reilly, thank you for pointing out the malapropism that's been running through this thread and bothering me! Call it "puffery," "exaggeration," or "deception," but not FUD!

 

[Tosser]

FUD means "fear, uncertainty and doubt."

I didn't know that, being a non-native english speaker and all. Thanks for the explanation

 

[MacFanBoyIIe]

I don't even care because:

Why buy a backup harddrive that is in a sealed case that you cannot access if it goes bad, but have to send to Apple, meanwhile you don't have your data and have to either have cloned it, need another drive, or not have cloned it and hope that it comes back in tact?

Bottom line, save your friggin money, go online, and buy a $150 RAID1 enclosure, then put 2 discount HDs in it (whatever brand, quality, and size you decide) and don't worry if one of them craps out on you because a) you have a mirror image, and b) you can just buy another cheap HDD and drop it in.
The Time Capsule is NOT a good NAS consumer choice.

 

[IJ Reilly]

IJ Reilly, thank you for pointing out the malapropism that's been running through this thread and bothering me! Call it "puffery," "exaggeration," or "deception," but not FUD!

Right. I probably should have said before, I'm not trying to say that SiliconAddict is wrong, except in using the term FUD to describe Apple's marketing. It's all marketing in the end, given that "server-grade" is nothing more than a marketing term anyway. I don't understand why it causes so much controversy, excitement, and anger.

 

[AidenShaw]

The case for calling it "deceptive marketing"

After all these posts, let me make one more argument to support the camp that feels that Apple is being deceptive in using consumer drives in a device marketed as having "server-grade" drives.

o Apple never describes what "server-grade" actually means in the product documentation - we merely have one interview where an Apple talking head says that it means "more than 10^6 hour MTBF"

o Many of the disk drive manufacturers provide SATA drives in two reliability levels - the "good" drives for consumer use, and the "better" drives for more demanding server use.

• HGST has the "Deskstar" for consumer/entry server, and the "Ultrastar"
• Seagate has the "Barracuda" line for consumer/low-cost server, and the "Barracuda ES" (Enterprise Storage) for higher reliability server use. (Note that Seagate's website has the Barracuda under the "Desktop Storage" link, and the Barracuda ES under the "Server & Enterprise Storage" link in the nav pane.)
• Western Digital separates drives into "Desktop Drives (home/office/high-performance computing)" with 3 year warranty and "Enterprise Drives (servers/SAN/NAS/Surveillance)" with 5 year warranties (all Raptors are 5 year)
• Samsung separates drives into "Consumer Electronics" and "Enterprise RAID" categories
• Fujitsu only makes server-grade SCSI/SAS/FC drives

o It is not unreasonable to assume that Apple's term "server-grade" would refer to one of these variously named higher reliability offerings - people who carefully purchase disks know that disks come in two flavors, and for Apple to brag about the flavor used in the TC would lead reasonable buyers to expect the "better" flavor of drive in the TC

o Arguments about Deskstars shipping in XServes are irrelevant - that only shows that Apple is using desktop drives in its entry-level server (don't kid yourself that the XServe is "server-grade" )

o "Enterprise" vs "Server" is also not relevant. Drives come in "good" and "better", with various names for the two. Saying that "server-grade" does not mean "enterprise" is a hollow argument when Apple does not define "server-grade".

o Arguments about Hitachi claiming that Deskstars are suitable for low-cost servers are also irrelevant as to the point of deception - any of the consumer drives are suitable for low-cost servers, but that doesn't put them in the higher tier of "server grade" drives. (It also doesn't help that Hitachi does not publish MTBF info for Deskstar drives, we only have Apple's claim that they are 1 million hour.)

So, the core argument for claiming deception is that Apple used an undefined term "server-grade" that aware purchasers would reasonably assume to mean the upper tier of drives provided by many of the disk vendors. Had Apple put a footnote on the page saying that "server-grade" meant "at least 10^6 hour MTBF" then there would be no case for deception - but they haven't.

If it comes to a class-action suit - the question will be "would a reasonable buyer expect a drive named 'Desk' in a device advertised as having a 'server-grade' drive?" The answer is "no", and Apple will have to pay. All the arguments of the Apple apologists won't mean anything, the question is whether reasonable people will feel that they have been deceived.

If these drives are not really server-grade, and they are used in Xserves, does that mean Xserves really aren't servers?

No, it just means that you should be sure to use RAID on your XServe because it's using cheap Desktop drives

 

[Whistleway]

Bravo post, AidenShaw.

It clearly is not for me though I was tempted to get the base model

 

[tony-in-japan]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... is this the most boring thread ever?

The originator of this thread should rename it to ‘Time Capsule 1TB uses Xserve drives (Hitachi Deskstar) and the Time Capsule 500GB uses Seagate Barracuda ES enterprise drives. Now, ladies and gentlemen, please get on with your lives...’

Apple marketing TC with ‘server-grade’ drives is, personally, no problem with me. In fact, I have already ordered the 500GB one and am happy with my purchase. You already know the drives used now, so my advice is to do your research on them and then let rationality dictate your choice.

If you are not happy with Apple’s marketing of the Time Capsule, then don’t buy it. Why get so emotionally wrapped up in something so trivial?

 

[AidenShaw]

If you are not happy with Apple’s marketing of the Time Capsule, then don’t buy it. Why get so emotionally wrapped up in something so trivial?

If you're comfortable with Apple using deceptive marketing, then go ahead and buy.

If you expect more from Apple, then you are one of the disappointed.... And there seem to be more and more people who are disappointed in Apple lately.

 

[Wild-Bill]

Excellent post, AidenShaw.

After going back through the thread I am amazed at the amount of Apple apologists and the lengths they go to in order to come to Apple's rescue and use argumentative semantics when they have no leg to stand on.

It's the apologists that give normal Mac users a bad name. I don't know if these people have their life savings sunk in Apple stock or they are truly bamboozled by Steve's RDF. This thread proves that, among those apologists, common sense is never a common virtue...

If a drive does fail you will still lose the data, the warranty will only cover the replacement drive.

m.o.t.o.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Excellent post, AidenShaw.

After going back through the thread I am amazed at the amount of Apple apologists and the lengths they go to in order to come to Apple's rescue and use argumentative semantics when they have no leg to stand on.

It's the apologists that give normal Mac users a bad name. I don't know if these people have their life savings sunk in Apple stock or they are truly bamboozled by Steve's RDF. This thread proves that, among those apologists, common sense is never a common virtue...

Nonsense. The entire debate is about semantics.

 

[tony-in-japan]

If you're comfortable with Apple using deceptive marketing, then go ahead and buy.

If you expect more from Apple, then you are one of the disappointed.... And there seem to be more and more people who are disappointed in Apple lately.

Sorry, I need to rephrase your sentence to:

‘If you're comfortable with Apple using deceptive marketing, in my opinion, then go ahead and buy.’

Geez. I really think you are making ‘a mountain out of a mole hill’. I, personally, think the marketing is fine. Others, like you, will think it is ‘deceptive’. Fine. At the end of the day, it is just a mass of opinions and over-analysis over marketing words.

As posted, I have already bought it and am happy with my purchase. If you are unhappy with your ‘non-purchase’, fine. I honestly don’t believe Apple were being ‘deceptive’. But hey, that’s not truth... just my opinion.