Tips on tipping (pun intended)

[MarkCollette]

Come on - how long does it take to train a person to make a cup of coffee?! Are you really going to tell me that making my girlfriend's overpriced strawberry iced mochichina or steamed whatever takes anything more then 15 minutes of training and using a blender?

Actually, yes. I've dated a barrista, and had a few friends who were, and I can tell you that there's a lot to know. First off, even if we followed your assumption of 15 minutes (which is wrong), we'd still have to multiply that by the 10 or so drinks that any barrista would have to know to make. Then we'd have to account for the fact that there's a physical technique to it. You see, it's not a matter of simply pouring together ingredients, but of doing it in a quite specific way, which requires experience and practice.

Admittedly, it's probably learnable in a matter of weeks. But, that still requires the person to actually care, and to be tought by someone who does as well. And I doubt that's altogether common. Especially if the clientel is under the illusion that it's an unskilled job, and treats them accordingly.

 

[Poseidon]

Actually, yes. I've dated a barrista, and had a few friends who were, and I can tell you that there's a lot to know. First off, even if we followed your assumption of 15 minutes (which is wrong), we'd still have to multiply that by the 10 or so drinks that any barrista would have to know to make. Then we'd have to account for the fact that there's a physical technique to it. You see, it's not a matter of simply pouring together ingredients, but of doing it in a quite specific way, which requires experience and practice.

Admittedly, it's probably learnable in a matter of weeks. But, that still requires the person to actually care, and to be tought by someone who does as well. And I doubt that's altogether common. Especially if the clientel is under the illusion that it's an unskilled job, and treats them accordingly.

Having gone into Starbucks or Barnes/Nobles and watched these folks make the drinks my girlfriend orders, I have a hard time believing it takes "weeks" to learn how to put together crushed ice, a few shots of flavoring, whipped cream and whatever else is tossed in.

Maybe the more expensive and complicated drinks do take more time to learn and I certainly don't claim to have any evidence to dispute you MarkCollette.

It's just hard to accept that answer in view of what I've seen.

 

[MarkCollette]

Having gone into Starbucks or Barnes/Nobles and watched these folks make the drinks my girlfriend orders, I have a hard time believing it takes "weeks" to learn how to put together crushed ice, a few shots of flavoring, whipped cream and whatever else is tossed in.

Maybe the more expensive and complicated drinks do take more time to learn and I certainly don't claim to have any evidence to dispute you MarkCollette.

It's just hard to accept that answer in view of what I've seen.

None of these girls worked at Starbucks, and I don't know how much standards differ from place to place.

 

[kosmo]

[And if you really believe that a waiter/bartender/et al is entitled to a tip, regardless of service provided, then we obviously disagree on what a tip is.]

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I don't see any part of my post that remotely says anyone is entitled to a tip, regardless of service provided. My post was directed at those who don't believe in tipping even with good service.

So to clarify my statement, waiters ARE entitled to tips when providing GOOD service.

It seems "illogical" for you the serviceperson to expect tips -especially enough tips to live on - when tipping is based on both very subjective determinations of "good" service and differing views on when/if a tip should be left.

No it is not illogical. Tipping is very much a part of American society. It is quite well established that when you, the customer, recieves satisfactory service, it is your, as the customer, obligation to leave a tip. When something is as ingrained as this, it can certainly said to be expected. Good service is really not that subjective. As always there are exceptions, but I'm sure the majority of people can quite easily agree on what good service is. By "differing views" do you just mean ignorance or stinginess?

 

[Poseidon]

It seems "illogical" for you the serviceperson to expect tips -especially enough tips to live on - when tipping is based on both very subjective determinations of "good" service and differing views on when/if a tip should be left.

No it is not illogical. Tipping is very much a part of American society. It is quite well established that when you, the customer, recieves satisfactory service, it is your, as the customer, obligation to leave a tip. When something is as ingrained as this, it can certainly said to be expected. Good service is really not that subjective. As always there are exceptions, but I'm sure the majority of people can quite easily agree on what good service is. By "differing views" do you just mean ignorance or stinginess?

I mean differing views on what constitutes "good service."

For example, my GF and I live in a college town and went out to a "nicer" restaraunt the other night, expecting that with the higher prices we would get better food and better service.

We (obviously) both had the same waiter and yet our views of his service weere quite different. From my standpoint, he did an adequate job - no complaints but nothing that made me think he went above and beyond - and so he got the usual post-tax 15-17% from me. On the other hand my girlfriend was very unimpressed and unhappy with this waiter and insisted I only leave 20%. Two people at the same establishment with the same waiter, yet completely different outlooks on service, as well as what an appropriate tip should be.

Now multiple that by all the different folks who go out, their differing views on good service, what the expected tip is or even if they should leave a tip, and you can see why it seems illogical for a waiter to assume that tips alone will provide a living wage.

 

[princealfie]

In the real Asian cultures, tipping is considered an insult to the cook in fact. They consider it impugning their services that you have to bribe them to show that you kinda liked their food.

No it is not illogical. Tipping is very much a part of American society. It is quite well established that when you, the customer, recieves satisfactory service, it is your, as the customer, obligation to leave a tip. When something is as ingrained as this, it can certainly said to be expected. Good service is really not that subjective. As always there are exceptions, but I'm sure the majority of people can quite easily agree on what good service is. By "differing views" do you just mean ignorance or stinginess?

Tipping is part of American society because we don't know what good food or service is. Honestly, I tip based on various economic consideration such as the price/value ratio and various other indicators after I eat.

 

[savar]

Usually delivery is 10-15%,
takeout is 0-10%,
and sit down is 15-20%. (In the U.S.)

On a $20 pizza i would usually tip $2-3, minus any delivery fee that the place might have.

Tips? Tips? You'd like to.

They get paid to be there and do their fracking job, don't need any extra money from me. Don't feel they get enough from their wages? Get a nice shiny new job. Do you tip the guy that serves you in the shopping mall? How about the guy who fixes your car? Didn't think so. Fracking greedy food industry workers.

*Runs off to the 'What bugs me today' thread*

Most servers get paid less than minimum wage, even at ridiculously expensive restaurants.

Right or wrong, thats how food service works in this country. I agree that the when, where and how much of tipping is totally arbitrary in this country. Still, if you want good service it helps to tip, especially at places you'll go back to. (Plus I used to date a girl who waited tables...)

In defense of tipping: when I have been in other countries where tipping is not common, I find that the service is disastrous (Australia <cough>)...nothing near what I am used to in US restaurants.

 

[miloblithe]

Having worked as a waiter for years, I can say that from that perspective, things usually, ultimately even out. You'll get excellent tips from some people and lousy tips from others. Sometimes this correlates with how good of service you give them, but usually it just comes down to their tipping beliefs.

On the other hand, I've only worked in two restaurants, and they were both in the relatively wealthy DC area and catered to people who probably tip much better than the national average. They also were fairly high volume so I had a lot of tables over the course of a shift, so plenty of time for things to even out.

There's a big difference between working in a nice restaurant that caters to young professionals (usually the best tippers--especially if they've ever worked in a restaurant) and one that caters to, say, retirees. From reading about working a Dennys or Howard Johnson's restaurant, those waiters and waitresses probably rarely make 15% of their sales in tips no matter how hard they try.

Another thing to consider: waiters and waitresses (unlike delivery people, as far as I know) usually have to split their tips with other members of the service staff (tipping out). For example, they give 10-15% of their tips to the bussers and 5-10% of their tips to the bartenders.

 

[Poseidon]

Most servers get paid less than minimum wage, even at ridiculously expensive restaurants.
...

I'm still confused as to why people bring this up - what does a waiter's wage have to do with how much I tip or even if I tip?

 

[macmama]

I'm still confused as to why people bring this up - what does a waiter's wage have to do with how much I tip or even if I tip?

Because some people have compassion and a sense of social responsibility?

 

[princealfie]

Because some people have compassion and a sense of social responsibility?

For me, compassion doesn't mean giving away something to them. It's about educating them to lead better lives.

 

[shecky]

Because some people have compassion and a sense of social responsibility?

wait. its socially responsible of me to tip someone who has done a crappy job because they get a low hourly wage? thats total BS. they do a good job, they get a good tip. they do a bad job, they get a bad tip. end of story.

i would say its more socially responsible of me to NOT tip a bad server because then maybe they will get the clue that they suck, and learn to do better or get into a different line of work, and thereby make a greater contribution to society.

 

[ezzie]

For me, compassion doesn't mean giving away something to them. It's about educating them to lead better lives.

wait...so now servers need to learn how to lead "better lives"? are you serious?

shecky has the idea...if you do a good job, you get a tip. if you do a great job, you get a better tip. if you do a terrible job and it is your fault, not the fault of the cooks in the kitchen or someone else, you get little or no tip. it's like natural selection....restaurant style.

macmama, i understand your point and i think you meant that there's a social responsibility to compensate your server appropriately for a job well done, at least in countries where tipping is customary. at least i think that's how you meant it.

 

[Poseidon]

I'm still confused as to why people bring this up - what does a waiter's wage have to do with how much I tip or even if I tip?

Because some people have compassion and a sense of social responsibility?

This is nonsense. I go to a restaraunt to eat, not to contribute to charity.

When did my "compassion" (or lackthereof) become related to a waiter's wages? And when did tipping become a "social responsibility"?

 

[ezzie]

This is nonsense. I go to a restaraunt to eat, not to contribute to charity.

When did my "compassion" (or lackthereof) become related to a waiter's wages? And when did tipping become a "social responsibility"?

please, you're not contributing to charity...you live in a country where it's general knowledge that servers make a very low hourly rate and rely on tips FOR A JOB WELL DONE. i don't know about you, but i wouldn't want to eat at a restaurant where the servers only make $2.13 an hour and never get tips...that'd be an angry bunch of servers, and rightfully so. i'd be afraid to eat my food.

just think, if there were no tips and the servers still made that tiny little wage, there wouldn't be any servers because the job wouldn't be worth it. then where would you go when you didn't feel like cooking for yourself?

 

[Poseidon]

please, you're not contributing to charity...you live in a country where it's general knowledge that servers make a very low hourly rate and rely on tips FOR A JOB WELL DONE. i don't know about you, but i wouldn't want to eat at a restaurant where the servers only make $2.13 an hour and never get tips...that'd be an angry bunch of servers, and rightfully so. i'd be afraid to eat my food.

just think, if there were no tips and the servers still made that tiny little wage, there wouldn't be any servers because the job wouldn't be worth it. then where would you go when you didn't feel like cooking for yourself?

Tipping is a social convention and a cultural expectation - I get that. I really do. It's something I expect I will do everytime I dine out and I've learned to accept that as just another cost of eating at a restaraunt.

What I have a problem with are the notions that a) waiters (or servicepeople in general) are entitled to tips regardless of the level of service provided and/or b) because a waiter (or person in X profession) makes so little money that requires a tip on my part.

To me tipping will always be about compensating (or rewarding) someone for service.

 

[ezzie]

Poseidon...

you and i agree...tipping is compensation for a job well done. it's generally accepted that a server receives a tip for good service.

my beef is with those in this thread (at least those from the US) that don't tip no matter how good the service is. it honestly does suck that in the US servers generally make well below minimum wage and have to rely on tips, but i don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

I'm not saying I'm poor by any means. I just believe that these people have applied for the job knowing what the wage is, and that is what they can expect to receive. If they don't feel its enough, get another job. I hated how pretty much everywhere in America I went people expected a tip - it is a very different culture in England I think. You tip if you feel the waiter or whoever it is has been exceptionally good - not just to everyone.

During the periods of time I spend in Europe, England included, most restaurants either charged a 1-2 Euro or Pound "cover charge" or added gratuity into the bill automatically. As I was informed, the "cover charge" was basically your tip so there was no reason to tip on top of it unless service was exceptional, same way with the added gratuity. In America rarely do restaurants charge a "cover charge" and most don't add gratuity unless you have a large party, thats really why you are expected by waiters/waitresses to tip.

Tipping really shouldn't be a big deal, especially if you can afford to go to a non-fastfood restaurant in the first place. Whats $5 on top of a $30 bill anyway, if you can afford the $30 you can afford an extra $5. If service is good I will leave 30%, I don't make alot of money, but if someone works hard to make my meal better, I think they deserve a couple of extra bucks, especially since almost all of them make even less than I do.

But tipping on a to-go order from a restaurant, now that's dumb.

 

[macmama]

macmama, i understand your point and i think you meant that there's a social responsibility to compensate your server appropriately for a job well done, at least in countries where tipping is customary. at least i think that's how you meant it.

Indeed, ezzie.

But hey, I'm admittedly bleeding-hearted on this topic. When I see someone who is not quite as up on their luck as I am, as say, the 50-year old woman who brings my food at the local diner, I'm pretty generous. And frankly, I think that's nice. What gets my goat on this thread is that so many of the posts here are so mean-spirited and of the "screw them" mentality. It's just a bit sad. *shrugs*

And we all do "charity" (well, some of us, anyway) in our own ways. If I want to include generous tipping on my list, so be it.

 

[mrgreen4242]

The average person is a joke at making coffee drinks. Honestly...I train the new people at work in how to use the machine and make the different drinks. It's not like we're just playing around with fancy jets of steam and stuff back there. If someone comes in my shop and orders a drink that they can make themselves, I don't expect a tip. Fine. If they want to take the time to learn how to properly work the machine, prepare the milk and coffee and make a drink, then they don't have to tip me, but 99% of people coming through the front door have no idea where to start making the drinks that they order, and really don't care to learn.

Just for the sake of argument... I'm not generally a fancy coffee beverage person. I like black coffee for the most part. But, I tried one of those iced latte things at McDonalds awhile back. Not bad. I had the urge for another one, but didn't want to pay $3 for it. So, I brewed a (mini) pot of really strong coffee, added some half and half, and an once or so of coffee syrup stuff we had in the cupboard. Shook it all over ice and poured into a cup. Guess what? It was nearly as good as the $3 drink and cost about 20 cents. No one had to show me anything, train me on some fancy hardware. I just poured the stuff that tased liek it should be in said drink into a stupid cup.

 

[emmawu]

To
Insure
Proper
Service

That's where the term "tips" come from. Wait staff has to report at least 8% to the IRS whether they have received a tip or not.

I like to tip in cash so it's not on my credit card and the waiter/ess can report whatever they's like.

I tip the usual 10 - 20% except in small places or neighborhood places where I tend to overtip. These people work their butts off and make no where near what they would in a pricey place.

Pizza delivery is usually 10% unless is crummy weather (and in Wisconsin we have REALLY crummy weather so I tip more in winter). Hair cuts, pedicures, etc a few bucks each time and the price of the service at the holidays ($50, etc).

And yes, I worked as a waitress during college and it was very hard work.

 

[Xylene]

It's probably hard to believe, but I work at a gas station in New Jersey, where it's illegal to pump your own gas, and I get tips all the time ranging from 25 cents to several dollars for doing nothing but pumping their gas, no cleaning windows, and I make a normal hourly rate which is much higher than the average for that type of job. The funny thing is, the people who usually have you do their windows don't tip at all and people who look like they need the money actually tip the best. There is a lady who comes in all the time with a old beat up green Honda Accord and always gets $20 of regular and it never takes the whole $20 and she just lets you keep the change.. one day she gave me $5.25.

BTW, IIRC she has an sticker on her window.

 

[nbs2]

just think, if there were no tips and the servers still made that tiny little wage, there wouldn't be any servers because the job wouldn't be worth it. then where would you go when you didn't feel like cooking for yourself?

I think you've put the cart before the horse. If there were no tips, staff supply would shrink such that demand would force wage increases. Because people are willing to tip at the rate at which they do, the incentive for employers is to limit the wage that they pay to their employees. I imagine that if at a restaurant where tipping was sufficiently generous on a constant basis, the ownership would prefer to go to a complete commission based system (ignoring the tax benefits of deducting wages - which also begins to attack the argument that increased wages would cause food prices to spiral out of control). Reduced tipping only reduces demand for jobs. Look at restaurants where tipping tends to be fairly high, and you will see that staff is chosen more selectively - if the tipping were insufficient (or ever became so), supply for those positions would decease and the demand would force increased wages or inferior service, putting the restaurant at risk if service is a hallmark.

my beef is with those in this thread (at least those from the US) that don't tip no matter how good the service is. it honestly does suck that in the US servers generally make well below minimum wage and have to rely on tips, but i don't see that changing any time soon.

Perhaps I haven't read losely enough or interpret too much, but I don't/can't see anybody arguing for the total withholding of all tips. I think even amongst the most vitrolic here, tips are provided for good service. I think their anger is expressed at those who feel compelled to tip for poor service. I count myself as one in that camp. I actually found myself bullied by former friends who demanded that I contribute an equal share to a tip after we recieved very poor service (summary since I don't wnat this post to get too long: we recieved water only with our orders and were never offered a refill)


Now then, I have one other point that must be made, and I apologize that I'm too lazy to read the thread to see who mentioned it first. I know I quoted you ezzie, but the "you" below refers to someone else

Who is the con artist that relied on Wikipedia as a source for waiters wages and accepted it as the absolute truth for the United States? It is this kind of slipshod work that makes me ashamed. If you were willing to read the article, you would have seen that the article was suggesting that the $2.13 made no reference to protections for the wait staff. Any waiter that does not make enough in tips is protected by the governemnt. Their shortfall must be offset by the employer to reach payment of mininum wage. Oh, and the average hourly for the United States is estimated to be $7.84 (including tips - although that is not made totally clear by the Dept or Labor, which includes every server type in thier mean number).