trading my iPad for Windows tablet!

[Krelian8]

Stop being rude lol, I'm sure there are very many intelligent people here.

No, that isn't the difference and btw build quality is a lot more than just trackpad quality.

You're the one who is (heavily) biased, if you really were able to provide proof of what you'd say, you'd post links -- because proof can't be refuted. And, that isn't what I've done below.

The 15" and 17" MBPs are quite a bit more expensive than their equivalents than the 13" MBP is, although, they still offer way more battery life than their equivalents too.

No, actually, that isn't pretty much "better" at everything; what's the point of putting those specs up? I can't verify them, so it means and proves nothing

Stop being so rude, I prefer functionality -- you're just too biased.
None of that is true, and no, not back to point #1
Above is the very reason I say you are so biased, you say that the Alienware has much better specs (which it does for the CPU, GPU) yet its much heavier and offers nothing near the battery life of the 13" MacBook Pro. You are actually saying that this Alienware machine is better and that its irrelevant (to you) that it weighs a lot and has poor battery life -- that isn't how you compare a product.

And no, it wouldn't be stupid to suggest a Mac to someone in that "80%", and are you really suggesting people don't buy a laptop for battery life?

You only buy a laptop if you want something mobile, you really only want something mobile if you intend to move it around, for the majority, these people won't be just moving it around the house, they'll be taking it outside, away from a power outlet -- otherwise, you buy a desktop.


Don't forget, the battery life as advertised is on a specific test, not actual real world usage -- you won't get 8 hours under normal use of the MacBook Pro, and you won't get 4 hours on the other machine, it'll vary on what you're doing, but it'll be less.

I was just reporting the official data. What I think we should define is what is a reasonable battery life for a normal user. 4h? 8h? Etc.... Otherwise we end up in a kindergarden like discussion where we discuss just for the sake of being right. For my personal experience and judging from the people around me using laptops, I concluded that 4h of battery is more than enough, all the rest is just a surplus.
On the other hand if you fly a lot I would go for a Mac or a net book depending on how much power you need to run your apps during the flight.

 

[Maagus]

It's not hard data, and I cannot come up with a source at this time. It's purely based on observation around campus, etc.

What about a Sony Vaio 13"? I didn't understand that part of your post, so please reword it.

Specs and machine performance have very high correlation. It's basically the same thing. Only difference possibly is OS, and Windows 7 has been proven to run pretty much everything identical to OSX and in a lot of cases better. I believe Photoshop apparently runs better on 7, although that info may be outdated by now.

I mentioned my Inspiron 1545 earlier though, and there is one thing that sort of cripples my experience with it: the horribad touchpad. Dell used to be smart and stuck with Synaptics in the past, but they've chosen instead to use an Alps touchpad. It is the single worst piece of utter crap I've ever used in my life, and thus I'm left using a bluetooth mouse most of the time. Otherwise, this laptop is pretty much perfect and is future proof thanks to not only very good specs, but a Blu-ray drive. So aside from hardware faults like a touchpad and the OS, I can't think of anything else that would offset the correlation between performance and specs.

I meant the OS but also the "whole package". One example of the OS and app optimalization is that 3 year old Mac Mini with GMA950 is capable of editing HD video in real time in Mac OS X.

Another thing I had in mind was that, if we talk about the average user (I agree with your observation and I will add my own), they do not actually hunt for specs. To hunt for the best specs, the average user would have to follow the trends (what CPU is being released, when, what manufacturers will offer it, how it will perform, follow the benchmarks). According to my observations, no average Joe does that (we might differ on this one because it depends on in what environment are we in and thus who we consider to be the average Joe). Thus it comes down to specific basic needs. One of them is "do I require mobility?" (it means portability, durability, weight, battery life and at the same time reasonable performance). Another one is "how effective/pleasant is to work with it", which ultimately comes down to personal preferences (no user measures if browser launches in 0,5s or 0,75s).

What I am trying to say is that specs do not matter much now for an average Joe (based on my observations). They mattered when they were essential for everyday work (I emphasize the everyday, of course, they still matter to hardcore gamers, 3D graphic artists etc.). So, based on that, my opinion is that it always comes down to personal preferences and that specs are not that important anymore. Even MS understood that when Windows 7 use HW much more effectively than Vista.

I am not blinded Apple user, I am far from that. But what I don't like is when someone ignores the personal preferences of users (that was what I meant by the "market segment" point). When Windows user comes to me and asks "I want to buy a Mac, which one should I take?" I reply to his question "And what do you expect it will bring you?".

The mention about Sony VAIO was that lot of people (I don't necessarily mean you, because you have some valid points and arguments) whose only and sole argument is that Macs are overpriced, do not understand that other manufacturers have premium models too. What I find odd is that they do not flame under the articles about any of them, how overpriced they are, it's like the word Apple is the same thing to them as red to a bull.

 

[mKTank]

I meant the OS but also the "whole package". One example of the OS and app optimalization is that 3 year old Mac Mini with GMA950 is capable of editing HD video in real time in Mac OS X.

Another thing I had in mind was that, if we talk about the average user (I agree with your observation and I will add my own), they do not actually hunt for specs. To hunt for the best specs, the average user would have to follow the trends (what CPU is being released, when, what manufacturers will offer it, how it will perform, follow the benchmarks). According to my observations, no average Joe does that (we might differ on this one because it depends on in what environment are we in and thus who we consider to be the average Joe). Thus it comes down to specific basic needs. One of them is "do I require mobility?" (it means portability, durability, weight, battery life and at the same time reasonable performance). Another one is "how effective/pleasant is to work with it", which ultimately comes down to personal preferences (no user measures if browser launches in 0,5s or 0,75s).

What I am trying to say is that specs do not matter much now for an average Joe (based on my observations). They mattered when they were essential for everyday work (I emphasize the everyday, of course, they still matter to hardcore gamers, 3D graphic artists etc.). So, based on that, my opinion is that it always comes down to personal preferences and that specs are not that important anymore. Even MS understood that when Windows 7 use HW much more effectively than Vista.

I am not blinded Apple user, I am far from that. But what I don't like is when someone ignores the personal preferences of users (that was what I meant by the "market segment" point). When Windows user comes to me and asks "I want to buy a Mac, which one should I take?" I reply to his question "And what do you expect it will bring you?".

The mention about Sony VAIO was that lot of people (I don't necessarily mean you, because you have some valid points and arguments) whose only and sole argument is that Macs are overpriced do not understand that other manufacturers have premium models too. What I find odd is that they do not flame under the articles about any of them how overpriced they are, it's like the word Apple is the same thing to them as red to a bull.

Difference is, every model in the Mac lineup has the price of a premium offering, even when the highest end model's specs aren't so premium. But alas, you're right when saying that the average Joe won't care too much about specs unless they specialize in something or unless they know exactly what they want. Basically, your whole post there is very accurate and what I wish most people would post like around here. However you misunderstand me. I never said the average Joe won't care about battery life at all. I'm saying most people who know what they want will always prioritize specs over battery life and the sort, since, as the other person said, 4h+ is very acceptable in the laptop world. I posted the Alienware completely out of proving a point simply about the specs. I could have picked a better example showing an increase in quality in both specs and battery life, but I got carried away with how mindnumbingly relatively well-priced the Alienware was next to the Macbook when it came to specs. Personally, along with most people I know (I suppose they're geeks which is why they'd do it) I'd definitely go with the Alienware. Not because it's a PC, but because I'm one of those people who prioritize specs over battery life and weight.

That said, I do not ignore those who want battery life at the expense of specs or if they simply don't care about specs. I was just going off of my observations. There's no hard data, like I said, but as I live around a community where 90% of the student body has a laptop of sorts, I have a large sample to work with and that is where I base most of my arguments.

 

[Krelian8]

I agree that the personal component is extremely important in the choice of a system. What makes me think is how much of average Joe choice comes from average joe's head and how much comes from the apple's hype.

 

[Krelian8]

I still believe that few people really need 8-9h of battery. To me it looks more like that apple needed something to look 'different' and started to push the battery life trend. The result are systems with a middle class video card, necessary to keep energy consumption low and system that is getting more and more closed.

 

[colmaclean]

I used to think I knew it all when I was at college, too.

 

[Maagus]

Difference is, every model in the Mac lineup has the price of a premium offering, even when the highest end model's specs aren't so premium. But alas, you're right when saying that the average Joe won't care too much about specs unless they specialize in something or unless they know exactly what they want. Basically, your whole post there is very accurate and what I wish most people would post like around here. However you misunderstand me. I never said the average Joe won't care about battery life at all. I'm saying most people who know what they want will always prioritize specs over battery life and the sort, since, as the other person said, 4h+ is very acceptable in the laptop world. I posted the Alienware completely out of proving a point simply about the specs. I could have picked a better example showing an increase in quality in both specs and battery life, but I got carried away with how mindnumbingly relatively well-priced the Alienware was next to the Macbook when it came to specs. Personally, along with most people I know (I suppose they're geeks which is why they'd do it) I'd definitely go with the Alienware. Not because it's a PC, but because I'm one of those people who prioritize specs over battery life and weight.

That said, I do not ignore those who want battery life at the expense of specs or if they simply don't care about specs. I was just going off of my observations. There's no hard data, like I said, but as I live around a community where 90% of the student body has a laptop of sorts, I have a large sample to work with and that is where I base most of my arguments.

From the comparison you posted, I thought you are just another Apple hater, that's where my previous sarcastic posts came from and I apologize for that.

Basically, the only point where we differ is based on what environments are we in. I agree, that there is around 20 % premium fee on every Mac. However than it depends if user who finds that Mac is the computer that suits his preferences the best is willing to pay for it or if he is willing to sacrifice something (because it is subjective, it might be even something like UI) and pay less for PC alternative. So it comes down to the comparison of Utility (subjective thing) and Price.

 

[Maagus]

I agree that the personal component is extremely important in the choice of a system. What makes me think is how much of average Joe choice comes from average joe's head and how much comes from the apple's hype.

Or how much it comes from that friend XY has Windows too There are so many influential factors in this that it is almost impossible to list them all.

 

[MythicFrost]

Highly irrelevant comment. I never said it was the only thing that mattered.

No, it isn't, and I never said that was the only thing that mattered.

I came up with examples. Of course, like the herd of sheep you are, you refuse it, because you know I'm right. You come up with some excuses about how I picked the wrong screen size and whatnot. Really? This was never about the 13", this is about Macs in general. Don't nitpick. I'm not biased, because I own several iProducts, but it really shames me to know that I own a product whose community is made up of people like you. Going, "NO, UR BIASED" isn't a valid argument and I'm sick of replying to it, so either form a real premise or cut it out.

I'm not a sheep, I told you to compare a 13" MacBook Pro against a similar product not a 15" one against a laptop designed for a totally different market.
And I'm not coming up with any excuses; Mac's aren't much more expensive if you compare it to an equivalent machine. I'm also not nitpicking, and it doesn't matter what you own.

Stop being rude, you say to me that I'm biased but when I say it to you because you compare a 15" MacBook Pro vs 15" Alienware gaming laptop and use that as justification why the MBP is overpriced, you throw a little fit and try to make out that everyone is calling you biased and you can't be bothered replying anymore.

There are definitely alternatives to the 13" that are better whilst costing the same. I can't be bothered to go fetch links to prove myself because you'll find some sort of flaw (or make one up) and use it as a basis for your argument till kingdom come (hence the whole 13" whatever fiasco.)

That's just a poor defensive argument because you know you can't really find anything. And no, I won't make up a flaw... and if it has one, then it that's worth bringing up -- you're just not capable of arguing properly.

Don't care if you can't verify them. They do exist and that's all that matters. It's not my fault you're too lazy to look it up.

I'm not lazy, I looked it up -- they all had slower CPUs and Intel GPUs, I'm not going to waste time looking for some machine you post.

If you ever preferred functionality, you'd never get a Mac to start with.

Also, get used to it.

Wow, you're so ignorant. And no, I won't get used to it, so stop being rude. Buying a Mac was one of the best things I ever did, I couldn't use Windows as my primary OS again. Considering the iMac I own, you can't find a comparable machine from ANYONE.

Read the previous post. You're missing the point. I didn't think you'd take it so literally. I was frankly kidding when posting the Alienware, jokingly saying how even the most overpriced PC can't match the ridiculous price of a mid-range Macbook even though it beats the specs of the highest range. I could definitely come up with an example from ASUS that would make you happy but it's 2:44AM and I really don't care how upset you are over this. The argument has fluctuated from me giving a crap to not so much. I thought I was involved in a real argument, not a pissing match with a fanboy who can't call an overpriced product when they see one. But then again, this is MacRumors so blame me for expecting anything different.

I'm not upset over anything, you've not been involved in anything, you just post your opinions with no facts to back them up, and I'm not a fan boy and I can call an overpriced product when I see one. You're so condescending... gah

TLDR;

You call me biased, yet you posted some ridiculous comparison, you insult people, are condescending, post your opinions as fact, refuse to believe anything unless it's "Macs are rubbish", and REFUSE to backup anything you say with any form of proof.

 

[mKTank]

No, it isn't, and I never said that was the only thing that mattered.

I'm not a sheep, I told you to compare a 13" MacBook Pro against a similar product not a 15" one against a laptop designed for a totally different market.
And I'm not coming up with any excuses; Mac's aren't much more expensive if you compare it to an equivalent machine. I'm also not nitpicking, and it doesn't matter what you own.

Stop being rude, you say to me that I'm biased but when I say it to you because you compare a 15" MacBook Pro vs 15" Alienware gaming laptop and use that as justification why the MBP is overpriced, you throw a little fit and try to make out that everyone is calling you biased and you can't be bothered replying anymore.

That's just a poor defensive argument because you know you can't really find anything. And no, I won't make up a flaw... and if it has one, then it that's worth bringing up -- you're just not capable of arguing properly.

I'm not lazy, I looked it up -- they all had slower CPUs and Intel GPUs, I'm not going to waste time looking for some machine you post.

Wow, you're so ignorant. And no, I won't get used to it, so stop being rude. Buying a Mac was one of the best things I ever did, I couldn't use Windows as my primary OS again. Considering the iMac I own, you can't find a comparable machine from ANYONE.

I'm not upset over anything, you've not been involved in anything, you just post your opinions with no facts to back them up, and I'm not a fan boy and I can call an overpriced product when I see one. You're so condescending... gah

TLDR;

You call me biased, yet you posted some ridiculous comparison, you insult people, are condescending, post your opinions as fact, refuse to believe anything unless it's "Macs are rubbish", and REFUSE to backup anything you say with any form of proof.

I've reached an understanding with somebody else in the thread. If you want to know where my stance is, just read the discussion between him and I. No I'm not horrible at arguing nor am I trying to avoid arguing with you. I just don't really care. You're dragging this on too far and it's getting kind of boring. You're boring me, is what I mean to say. Sorry there isn't a nicer way to say it, but I'm getting tired of replying to a wall of text and getting another wall of text minutes later to argue against. If your arguments consisted of anything logical, I may accept them, but so far all you've been saying is that I'm biased, is that I'm wrong, is that I don't back up my statements even though I did with several different examples, is that I posted a rubbish example whereas you just missed the point of it completely.
Anyway, if you're just trying to save face by dragging this argument farther than it needs to exist, then that's probably why I'm giving up. That's what I'm seeing you're doing anyway. You're trying to challenge me to come up with better examples. There is undoubtedly a premium you must pay with Apple computers, and the fact that I have to prove that to you sort of outlines where I'm coming from when I say that you're starting to bore me, frankly. You also have a distinctive lack of ability to tell jokes apart from seriousness, as seen by how seriously you're taking the Alienware example and how seriously you just took my "if you wanted functionality, you'd have never bought a Mac" statement. I'm having fun but you sort of spoiled it.

That is all. Maybe Krelian will have the patience to argue with you or something but I'm just bored now.

 

[MythicFrost]

I've reached an understanding with somebody else in the thread. If you want to know where my stance is, just read the discussion between him and I. No I'm not horrible at arguing nor am I trying to avoid arguing with you. I just don't really care. You're dragging this on too far and it's getting kind of boring. You're boring me, is what I mean to say. Sorry there isn't a nicer way to say it, but I'm getting tired of replying to a wall of text and getting another wall of text minutes later to argue against. If your arguments consisted of anything logical, I may accept them, but so far all you've been saying is that I'm biased, is that I'm wrong, is that I don't back up my statements even though I did with several different examples, is that I posted a rubbish example whereas you just missed the point of it completely.
Anyway, if you're just trying to save face by dragging this argument farther than it needs to exist, then that's probably why I'm giving up. That's what I'm seeing you're doing anyway. You're trying to challenge me to come up with better examples. There is undoubtedly a premium you must pay with Apple computers, and the fact that I have to prove that to you sort of outlines where I'm coming from when I say that you're starting to bore me, frankly. You also have a distinctive lack of ability to tell jokes apart from seriousness, as seen by how seriously you're taking the Alienware example and how seriously you just took my "if you wanted functionality, you'd have never bought a Mac" statement. I'm having fun but you sort of spoiled it.

That is all. Maybe Krelian will have the patience to argue with you or something but I'm just bored now.

I'm boring you? Na, you're just rude man.

You keep getting a wall of text because you keep posting a wall of text, my arguments are plenty logical and no, the very last things I've said are that you're biased, wrong, etc., up until that I was simply trying to get you to post a proper comparison.

You said that the Alienware proves your point, that for the same price you can from an already overpriced brand can get you much better specs, what exactly am I supposed to think from that? That it's a joke? No.

Save face? Dragging argument farther? No. You're not boring me, you're irritating me, you insult me and won't provide any proof about what you say.

I'm perfectly capable of knowing what a joke is and what being serious is, however, when you write on the net, things come across EXACTLY as they are written, so your point is totally moot.

I spoiled your fun? No, you wrote nothing that indicated you weren't being serious -- and as I said, jokes, sarcasm, etc., don't come across over the net (as you should know), particularly when you write nothing to indicate that it's not serious, or a joke.

 

[Bernard SG]

Basically my argument. The conflict in this thread exists between the people who prefer longer battery life at the expense of specs and how much they have to pay for it and the people, like me, who prefer performance over battery life and weight, given that I usually keep my laptop in one place and use it there instead of take it everywhere with me. I do take it to school occasionally to write notes with it but then I bring the charger as well, so it's a non-issue.

Based on what you said there, you basically don't need a laptop - except for the "occasionally". Yet you decide to pay the additional price of a laptop over a desktop... Which is absolutely your right.

However, it's not very $$$-efficient; therefore, it takes away a lot of your credibility when you start criticizing people choosing to pay somewhat more when they go for a Mac over a Windows PC.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Krelian8]

Or how much it comes from that friend XY has Windows too There are so many influential factors in this that it is almost impossible to list them all.

I think that apple is a special case even in this context. For hears they hammered in people's head ideas like: 'we can provide the best systems in the world...', 'windows is crap....', etc... just look at the I am a mac campaign. It was really catchy. Apple is a company that needs a lot of hype to stay alive.

 

[sapporobaby]

I think that apple is a special case even in this context. For hears they hammered in people's head ideas like: 'we can provide the best systems in the world...', 'windows is crap....', etc... just look at the I am a mac campaign. It was really catchy. Apple is a company that needs a lot of hype to stay alive.

You really believe that?

 

[Krelian8]

You really believe that?

Yes, look at when they introduce something 'new'; they alway make a huge mediatic show as it is necessary to drill in people's head the idea that what they are looking at is cool that they need to buy it. After this they start a big advertisement campaign where in many cases they denigrate the competitors.

 

[sapporobaby]

Yes, look at when they introduce something 'new'; they alway make a huge mediatic show as it is necessary to drill in people's head the idea that what they are looking at is cool that they need to buy it. After this they start a big advertisement campaign where in many cases they denigrate the competitors.

Don't take this wrong (well go ahead if you want), but your argument is so sophomoric and myopic that I can't be bothered to continue with you. It would be a one side argument. So continue on thinking what you want.

 

[eawmp1]

Apple is a company that needs a lot of hype to stay alive.

Hype gets customers in the door.

Quality/experience/perceived value/customer service keeps them.

Customers who buy products that don't suit their needs are fools or suckers (like the OP).

 

[Krelian8]

Don't take this wrong (well go ahead if you want), but your argument is so sophomoric and myopic that I can't be bothered to continue with you. It would be a one side argument. So continue on thinking what you want.

sophomoric: I think i know apple products very well to judge them beyond their hype
myopic: actually to me apple users lack tolerance or understanding

If you have time to read my posts I presented some the reasons behind my current ideas

If you want to sit and wait for someone from apple to tell you what you need to buy then do it.

Please drop the technical expert attitude is really not constructive at all and a bit annoying at this point of the thread. If you do not want to be part of this discussion simply go somewhere else.

 

[Krelian8]

Hype gets customers in the door.

Quality/experience/perceived value/customer service keeps them.

Customers who buy products that don't suit their needs are fools or suckers (like the OP).

The problem comes when you use it too much without a lot of substance

 

[colmaclean]

The problem comes when you use it too much without a lot of substance

Doesn't look like Apple's bank balance agrees with you.

 

[Krelian8]

Doesn't look like Apple's bank balance agrees with you.

Until the hype lasts people will buy

 

[Krelian8]

Doesn't look like Apple's bank balance agrees with you.

Anyway apple products are good products, they are just overpriced compared to the pc equivalent. Apple cases are very robust and well designed and their battery life is excellent, these are facts that nobody can deny.

 

[colmaclean]

Anyway apple products are good products, they are just overpriced compared to the pc equivalent. Apple cases are very robust and well designed and their battery life is excellent, these are facts that nobody can deny.

I can drive to the supermarket in either a Fiat or a Mercedes.

One costs considerably more than the other, but they can both perform that journey adequately.

Why would anyone want a Mercedes?

 

[Krelian8]

I can drive to the supermarket in either a Fiat or a Mercedes.

One costs considerably more than the other, but they can both perform that journey adequately.

Why would anyone want a Mercedes?

the problem is that Fiat and mercedes have different engine, body, etc... Here we have the same engine but different car bodies that do not differ so much to justify the increased price.

 

[colmaclean]

the problem is that Fiat and mercedes have different engine, body, etc... Here we have the same engine but different car bodies that do not differ so much to justify the increased price.

I would say that customer service comes into my thinking too. Where's the nearest Dell Store with a Genius Bar which will swap my faulty hardware no questions asked?