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Some good points. However, people will invariably do/take what they can get away with and companies are no different.
Western companies outsource because they can get away without paying for what the work really costs, (I'm including more than just monetary terms, (although there is a case to say everything comes back to that), for example we have the working time directive here which we believe is correct but that we would not stipulate our subcontractors abide by). If they did then we would truly have tariff free trading except for luxuries.
In absolute terms iPhones can be assembled anywhere. Avocados cannot be grown anywhere. So there will always be international trade.
Western countries are and have been for a long time very consumer oriented, very much about luxury goods and excess and if manufacturing is to succeed in these places the general public have to be prepared to pay more.
In the west, there is this mindset that they are above doing menial tasks and that will need to change if manufacturing is to really succeed.
Now of course not every single inhabitant will refuse to screw iPhones together or pick strawberries but you get the point.
Yes totally and thanks for that.
 
Let’s be real: Tangerine Palpatine isn’t “planning” anything. That guy’s skull is the equivalent of a glass jar full of dying fireflies.

On Thursday, he’ll wake up and see that tech stocks have tanked even further, and more “exemptions” will come in. Four days later, after Chinese state media calls him a dirty name, he’ll institute an eleventy billion percent tariff instead.

There is no plan. There is no rationale. There is only the ravings of a lunatic moron, who 70+ million of his fellow idiots trusted with far more power than he deserved or was ever capable of exercising with even a modicum of wisdom or restraint.

Him and his hedge fund pals are making billions. I'd say it's a lunatic way to run a country and detrimental for their citizens, but for personal gain it's easy money at the moment. Especially as the rest of the country(and world) is so soft to his whims and just let him do whatever.
 
Oh, you mean 2021 to 2024, when the country still had rule of law intact? What our economy was the envy of the world by every objective metric? When our institutions were still functioning? Before the military and DOJ were decapitated in the service of protecting one senile moron's quest for revenge? When people didn't worry about their social safety net? When diversity, equity and inclusion protected people whose rights had been trampled forever? THAT time? How good does that Kool-Aid taste and where are you getting your news? Because it's not coming from the reality-based sources.
True internally but not externally. Although truth be told, things have been going wrong economically for decades sadly and it only takes an incompetent, impulsive leader to rip the mask off.
 
Him and his hedge fund pals are making billions. I'd say it's a lunatic way to run a country and detrimental for their citizens, but for personal gain it's easy money at the moment. Especially as the rest of the country(and world) is so soft to his whims and just let him do whatever.
Trump subscribes to trickle down economics, this is a fact.
What he has done is to put the money back into the hands of the billionaires by the back door at the expense of Joe Public.
I remember people saying ages ago that he was going to crash the economy on purpose so that he could 'rescue it' and laughed at how ridiculous that was but now.............
 
Oh, you mean 2021 to 2024, when the country still had rule of law intact? What our economy was the envy of the world by every objective metric? When our institutions were still functioning? Before the military and DOJ were decapitated in the service of protecting one senile moron's quest for revenge? When people didn't worry about their social safety net? When diversity, equity and inclusion protected people whose rights had been trampled forever? THAT time? How good does that Kool-Aid taste and where are you getting your news? Because it's not coming from the reality-based sources.
Even in 2020 the rule of law was not intact.
America seems to, (and I know that in absolute terms you have to go by what is actually written), abide only by the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law also.
Corruption is rife. You still had politicians and judges that refused oversight and rejected laws that didn't suit them. You know like being allowed to buy stocks that they have jurisdiction over.
The sheer number of police beatings and killings over there that for which they often get a pat on the back by the Mayor/DA/judge or where they investigate themselves and find no wrong doing beggars belief.

Pfft. Rule of law. lol......
 
However, what I’m arguing is that we will find out that the upshot of globalisation is that china gets an awful lot of help in becoming a rival to the USA - and likely surpassing it if present trends continue.

And then the USA will find out quite swiftly that the world it’s not its playground.
This is a global version of levelling up and I don't think it is a bad thing. The wealth of the west has depended in part on being industrially ahead of much of the rest of the world. This is not sustainable in the long run without deliberate intervention to keep the rest behind. Local corruption can slow things down a lot but, eventually, everyone will want their country to advance and that will mean (definitely not in our lifetime) that outsourcing becomes a more considered option if manufacturing, education, costs etc are more or less the same the world over. Geography will be the deciding factor - population, local customs, geology, topography and climate will disadvantage some countries in terms of what and how much they can produce and consume.

Globalisation is the natural consequence of wanting to better yourself. Your parents grafted in mind-numbing factory jobs, pits and all manner of life-shortening industries in the hope of being able to give their children a better life than they had. Before industrialisation we had basically the nobility and the peasantry. Social mobiity was not great.

Holding back China for the sake of being top dog will require more than just tariffs. The one advantage the US has over China is its education system, which encourages scepticism, independent thought and questioning of the status quo. That leads to all sorts of innovations in every sphere of life. It is not just because of English that a lot of students from the rest of the world flock to western universities. China has moved somewhat along those lines recently but its political class still insists on obedience. The US can, if it wishes, restrict access to those corridors of academe and try to hang onto its competitive advantage for a little bit longer. Like King Canute holding back the sea.
 
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Holding back China for the sake of being top dog will require more than just tariffs.
agree
The one advantage the US has over China is its education system, which encourages scepticism, independent thought and questioning of the status quo.
Less and less allowed in the USA as well. See what government does to education/science/institutes and schools. Also no department of education anymore. Questioning the status quo has already become dangerous in the US.
That leads to all sorts of innovations in every sphere of life. It is not just because of English that a lot of students from the rest of the world flock to western universities. China has moved somewhat along those lines recently but its political class still insists on obedience.
Obedience and gratefulness is greatly appreciated by the president of the US.
The US can, if it wishes, restrict access to those corridors of academe and try to hang onto its competitive advantage for a little bit longer. Like King Canute holding back the sea.
Maybe, but less and less a competitive advantage here.
 
But Timmy kissed the ring! Why????


Tim Cook Gay and supports Trump.png
 
Th
This is a global version of levelling up and I don't think it is a bad thing. The wealth of the west has depended in part on being industrially ahead of much of the rest of the world. This is not sustainable in the long run without deliberate intervention to keep the rest behind. Local corruption can slow things down a lot but, eventually, everyone will want their country to advance and that will mean (definitely not in our lifetime) that outsourcing becomes a more considered option if manufacturing, education, costs etc are more or less the same the world over. Geography will be the deciding factor - population, local customs, geology, topography and climate will disadvantage some countries in terms of what and how much they can produce and consume.

Globalisation is the natural consequence of wanting to better yourself. Your parents grafted in mind-numbing factory jobs, pits and all manner of life-shortening industries in the hope of being able to give their children a better life than they had. Before industrialisation we had basically the nobility and the peasantry. Social mobiity was not great.

Holding back China for the sake of being top dog will require more than just tariffs. The one advantage the US has over China is its education system, which encourages scepticism, independent thought and questioning of the status quo. That leads to all sorts of innovations in every sphere of life. It is not just because of English that a lot of students from the rest of the world flock to western universities. China has moved somewhat along those lines recently but its political class still insists on obedience. The US can, if it wishes, restrict access to those corridors of academe and try to hang onto its competitive advantage for a little bit longer. Like King Canute holding back the sea.
Thanks for a great & thoughtful response.

Sure, I agree that levelling up the world is something to be applauded. And way better than handing out aid etc

But with all due respect, your answer kind of assumes that everyone in the west has a great education and a great job. And last I looked, they do not.

And the areas that we see the greatest disparity are those that lost precisely the sort of jobs that were lost to other countries.

And then we see many people in these areas vote for people like trump, because whether they believe in him and his like, what have they got to lose?

So there’s some inbuilt instability in the democratic west. And I don’t see that resolving itself anytime soon.

And yes, it’s a story that’s still being written as to whether a very authoritarian society can beat the USA.

We’ll see. At the very least, I’d say that the USA and the west using china as a workshop has helped it to nearly equal the USA as a superpower.

And china has already started to throw its weight around. Look at the rare earths export bans. And that they - most likely - started selling off us bonds (Govt debt) the other week, helping the market to panic.

I guess I’m just trying to be a bit of a Cassandra and say that since the collapse of the ussr and the end of the Cold War in 1991, the USA has had things its own way, mostly.

I’m just not sure that’s going to continue for much longer & it would be smart to onshore important industries.
 
At least Apple has been diversifying where it builds plants. Now (or soon) spread over several countries. With each country it brings Apple some key advantages like skilled workers and better access to markets to sell their products. They've even been doing a bit more in the US. It's definitely not a good idea for them to rely heavily on China but it's equally not wise for them to fully leave China either. This is good for Apple and even for the US in indirect ways.
It’s interesting that we never heard about Apple and its attempt to build some manufacturing in Brazil. They were heavily considering it years ago, and it would have helped them cut costs and tap into LATAM market.

Might be that Brazil’s political instability was unworkable.
 
You don’t, you likely won’t have mid term elections next year.

Our royal family has no power, not a bean.

We didn’t combine any countries to be relevant, we invaded, we pillaged, enslaved and we controlled most of the world through brute force. We weren’t relevant, we were the world.

That’s our history, democracy looks like it’s being consigned to your history.
You should figure out what a Democracy is. Our electoral college means we don't have a Democracy form of government.
 
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You don't honestly believe it's only the Democrats bellied up to the pork barrels, do you? Go look into the the disaster that is the SLS moon rocket. It's basically a red state aerospace jobs program for Alabama, Florida, Louisiana and Texas. Yes, the west coast is in there too, but it is pretty much a classic example of congress overruling the guidance of experts to grab as much money for their interests/state as they can and then feigning surprise when the project is a money hole that is $14 billion over budget. It's equal opportunity on both sides.


Opinions do matter. SCOTUS can say the law is constitutional or not in the current circumstances, that does not stop anyone from passing a new law to replace that one, or even the people/states from proposing and ratifying a constitutional amendment that better defines certain powers and what can/can not be delegated to another branch. Unlikely, but it is possible.



How would anyone know if they are legal? They are just picking people up and sending them out of the country with no due process.
Not saying politicians aren't crooked, but one party definitely spends more than the other.
 
Trump and his administration—as if that label still applies. At this point, he’s basically a one-man show with a stethoscope and executive powers, doing whatever he wants while everyone else just nods along.

(And the fact that my first reaction after writing this was ‘Will this get me flagged at the border?’ says a lot about how far the U.S. has drifted.)
 
All the Trumpers here would be furious if a Dem were doing all this and they’d be correct. We already tried tariffs and isolationism in the early 20th century. It doesn’t work. We’re undermining the alliances that have helped make the U.S. the wealthiest nation in the world since the end of WW2. If you want to encourage divestment from China, you don’t also tariff Japan and S. Korea.
 
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He's actually using Section 232 of the 1962 Trade Expansion Act.

Kinda crazy how many laws Congress has passed so that they can hand the tariff responsibility to someone else isn't it?
And Congress can, at any time, pass a joint resolution (which does not need a President's signature and still has the force of law) to end the alleged state of emergency and all the tariffs in an instant.

Also back in 1962, I doubt anyone then would've thought that we'd elect such a group of ignorant, hateful, truly stupid people to power.
 
Not being able to manufacture and assemble iPhones in America is no excuse to not make a lot of the components here.
It would be good to encourage manufacture in the US, and for that matter in Canada and Western Europe. At least I would hope for that. My dad's Texas Instruments calculators, as far as I know, from the 80s were made in the USA*.




* I think so.
 
And Congress can, at any time, pass a joint resolution (which does not need a President's signature and still has the force of law) to end the alleged state of emergency and all the tariffs in an instant.

The question now is if it would matter if Congress passed anything? We've seen time and time again that he intends to rule by decree, while Congress and SCOTUS are complicit in this.
 
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And china has already started to throw its weight around. Look at the rare earths export bans. And that they - most likely - started selling off us bonds (Govt debt) the other week, helping the market to panic.
To be fair, it was Japan not China, which did most of the selling. If the market you hold debt in is saying it wants to drastically reduce the amount of goods it buys from you, what is the point in holding bonds in its currency? You are not suddenly going to want to invest in a hostile environment and you are not going to need to prop up the economy of a country that does not want to trade with you except on its own terms. It would have made perfect sense for China to have dumped the dollar but I think it is playing a longer game.
 
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