It could be that there is not a factual problem but the airlines are wanting to draw a line in the sand. In light of my previous comment, FCC has a history of encroaching on other industries to satisfy the ever expanding appetite of cellular services.
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U.S. Airlines Warn of 'Catastrophic' Crisis With Impending 5G Rollout, AT&T and Verizon Agree to Delay Around Airports
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No, this is completely false. The frequencies that T-Mobile is using for 5G are no where near the frequencies that radio altimeters in airplanes use. There were NO regulations near airports on the frequencies that T-Mobile is using for 5G.
T-Mobile did buy some of this spectrum but they are not able to deploy it until 2023 per the terms of the chunks of spectrum they purchased. AT&T and Verizon bought early access spectrum which is why they are able to deploy it earlier — hence why they are the first to run into issues with this spectrum.
Please don’t spread false information.
I don't know where the C-band potentially overlaps or interferes with airline communications. However, avionics is a very sophisticated and complicated web of communications, not something that you just "change the channel" arbitrarily.
I can easily explain this. Airlines in the US will run a plane until the next flight it would fall out of the sky and don't spend money on aircraft unless absolutely necessary. So while the rest of the world has modern (shielded) technology in planes we don't. The airlines are screaming catastrophe until someone else foots the bill to get "free" upgrades.
Can you download that movie over 5G faster than the plane torpedoing to
ground? We think so! - Verizon
ground? We think so! - Verizon
Yet in France and Japan where the C-Band signal is much stronger there have been 0 issues with any flights. This is just airliners trying to cry wolf to try and milk the government into some grants to upgrade their systems.
I’ve read once about farmers complaining about the cows will stop giving milk because the railway line was build close to their fields.
The FAA has already cleared 45% of the US commercial fleet in terms of C-band 5G: https://www.faa.gov/5g#collapse4701
The Airbus A300, A310, A320, A330 and A350 are cleared (leaving the A220, A340 and A380 still under evaluation).
The Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767 and MD-10/11 are cleared (leaving the 777 and 787 still under evaluation).
The Airbus A300, A310, A320, A330 and A350 are cleared (leaving the A220, A340 and A380 still under evaluation).
The Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767 and MD-10/11 are cleared (leaving the 777 and 787 still under evaluation).
The FAA site notes that the US allows temporary 5G power rates 250% greater than France: 1585 watts compared to 621 watts. France also requires a 90-second protected buffer for their major airports compared to 20-seconds for the US. And France tilts their antenna towards the ground where the US allows them to radiate parallel to the ground.
The C-band frequencies used in France and Japan are also farther away from the frequencies used by the airline gear, meaning a less chance of any interference.
I am very short on time this week, but as a pilot, I will attempt to answer a few of the questions being posted here. The FAA is tasked with protecting public safety. The band being rolled out by AT&T and Verizon is right next to the frequencies used by the special altimeter systems that we use to determine the precise height above the ground during instrument approaches, which are sometimes in poor visibility or even no visibility conditions. As it turns out, this band of 5G frequencies, if broadcasted strong enough, can and do effect our altimeters ability to read our precise height above the ground.
Most of our planes can go all the way down to 100ft above the ground in limited to no visibility before needing to see some part of the runway environment to determine if we can safely land. In some special cases, we can go even lower. Keep in mind that jet engines take a few seconds to spool up and produce enough power to execute a go-around if we cannot safely land. Now, think about just how low a plane actually is when it is only 100ft above the ground and descending (only 1/3rd of a football field) and think about what would happen if our special altimeter systems were off, even by a little bit, and how catastrophic that could be.
As such, the FAA is pulling the plug and will not allow us to even try these instrument approaches if AT&T and Verizon were to implement the bands today. We simply cannot take that risk with lives on board and millions of dollars worth of cargo. This would delay and cancel countless flights. But that leads to more: keep in mind that we go from one flight to another, and cancellations like this would cause a cascading effect of cancellations across the entire system. Think about what happens when there is a major Nor'Easter....flights on the West Coast are cancelled because of the cascading effects on planes and crews.
The solution is not as simple as "put new equipment on planes" as that takes years of developmental and operational testing, certification, and of course, big, big money. Now, whether or not someone in the government has sat on this info for years is above my pay grade...but when it comes to the immediate action by the FAA and as a result, the airlines and cargo carriers, we must halt operations (if things were moving forward as planned) because we cannot risk a crash killing hundreds of people or destroying hundreds of millions of dollars in property.
This has everything to do with public safety. And it has everything to do with keeping the current air transport system up and running.
Most of our planes can go all the way down to 100ft above the ground in limited to no visibility before needing to see some part of the runway environment to determine if we can safely land. In some special cases, we can go even lower. Keep in mind that jet engines take a few seconds to spool up and produce enough power to execute a go-around if we cannot safely land. Now, think about just how low a plane actually is when it is only 100ft above the ground and descending (only 1/3rd of a football field) and think about what would happen if our special altimeter systems were off, even by a little bit, and how catastrophic that could be.
As such, the FAA is pulling the plug and will not allow us to even try these instrument approaches if AT&T and Verizon were to implement the bands today. We simply cannot take that risk with lives on board and millions of dollars worth of cargo. This would delay and cancel countless flights. But that leads to more: keep in mind that we go from one flight to another, and cancellations like this would cause a cascading effect of cancellations across the entire system. Think about what happens when there is a major Nor'Easter....flights on the West Coast are cancelled because of the cascading effects on planes and crews.
The solution is not as simple as "put new equipment on planes" as that takes years of developmental and operational testing, certification, and of course, big, big money. Now, whether or not someone in the government has sat on this info for years is above my pay grade...but when it comes to the immediate action by the FAA and as a result, the airlines and cargo carriers, we must halt operations (if things were moving forward as planned) because we cannot risk a crash killing hundreds of people or destroying hundreds of millions of dollars in property.
This has everything to do with public safety. And it has everything to do with keeping the current air transport system up and running.
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They all ready delayed it a month, then another 2 weeks. Now more delays. Delaying the problem until next week isn't going to solve the problem. The problem will be solved when the airlines can exploit AT&T and VZW out of the money to upgrade 50%+ of their radar altimeter avionics for free at the wireless companies expense. This a solution looking for a problem, not the other way around.
Not sure what you're talking about here. It sounds like you know a bit about avionics and low visability approaches, while confusing Mode C transponder operations with the 5g "C-band" frequencies.
Mode C transponders operate on a 1030/1090 Mhz frequency pair. The C-band is frequencies between 3.4 Ghz and 4.2Ghz. These two things occupy vastly different portions of the RF spectrum and are very much different pieces of equipment (Mode C transponder Vs radar altimeter)..
Edit for typos..
Or someone failed to grease the right palms at the FAA?
Because the C-Band 5G was scheduled for a Major Switch On, not the isolated availability up to this point. The issue is the Towers being switched on within a certain radius of the Runways ILS Transmitter. The frequencies are so close together that there have been thousands of Go Arounds at airports where this was already an issue.
When the aircraft is on an ILS Approach interference can cause faulty altitude readouts. Not something you want if your on a CAT 3 ILS Approach.
Fortunately no incidents other than go arounds have happened due to other Terrain Avoidance Systems onboard. However, even a single go around in a highly congested airspace can have a ripple effect delaying other inbound and outbound aircraft.
Look at VASaviation on YouTube and look for posts on this subject.
I commend AT&T and Verizon. This problem has been in the shadows to those not in the industry for a while.
Not going to be an easy fix.
Excellent post. 👍
It's possible that they want federal funds to update their older planes instead of spending their own money.
What did they do with all the money they got during COVID? Frittered it away on big TVs and game consoles?
The devices in question are radar altimeters that are used on many approaches and landings. These are legacy devices that use mm-wave frequencies and have been installed for decades. To replace them with something that works well would take years and potentially hundreds of thousands of US dollars per plane.
I think some out of the box thinking is in order...
Remember a few days ago there was that news that FedEx is planning to put lasers onto planes to help protect planes from missiles?
How about airlines put lasers on planes to zap any 5G towers that are causing problems, on approach to runway?
Who's with me??!
Remember a few days ago there was that news that FedEx is planning to put lasers onto planes to help protect planes from missiles?
How about airlines put lasers on planes to zap any 5G towers that are causing problems, on approach to runway?
Who's with me??!
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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This is super helpful and frankly really interesting, thanks for posting! I think a lot of the comments here also relate the the very last part of your post which is basically--why has it taken so long for the FAA and whatever other government agencies are involved to take action on this (who's been just sitting on this). The carriers planning for 5G has been years in the making, the carriers didn't just decide to do this on their own with a couple of months notice to the government. No one (in the comments from the FAA, etc.) have answered that question--why have they waited so long to get on top of this? I'd love to understand more about that myself.