U.S. Airlines Warn of 'Catastrophic' Crisis With Impending 5G Rollout, AT&T and Verizon Agree to Delay Around Airports

[4jasontv]

Have we asked taxpayers what they want, since they own both the spectrum and US Airlines?

 

[dugbug]

They all ready delayed it a month, then another 2 weeks. Now more delays. Delaying the problem until next week isn't going to solve the problem. The problem will be solved when the airlines can exploit AT&T and VZW out of the money to upgrade 50%+ of their radar altimeter avionics for free at the wireless companies expense. This a solution looking for a problem, not the other way around.

I was being facetious

 

[asdfjkl;]

So this whole issue dates from October 2020 when the RTCA, an FAA advisory group, published a paper which showed that there could be interference between 5G base stations and phones and aircraft radio altimeters. This was based on experiments conducted in a lab.

Radio altimeters are used in a variety of aircraft to aid in landing and collision avoidance. This includes airliners and smaller aircraft like helicopters (e.g. air ambulances). For instance, some airliners can perform an "auto-land" (CAT III landing) when weather conditions are particularly bad. Basically cockpit automation will bring the aircraft very very close to the runway.

The cell industry responded to this with a white paper that basically said, "Bunk! We don't believe it." No testing or anything, just words. So while it is entirely possible that the lab results would not be replicated in the real world, how in the world could we allow for the possibility of mass casualties due to equipment malfunction caused by interference from 5G?

Radio altimeters have been in use for decades in aviation. Everything related to aviation is heavily regulated. Just creating "new" or "better" avionics would take years and cost $100Ms. Radio altimeters were here first. It is the responsibility of the 5G carriers to not interfere with existing technology.

For those that want all the gory details: Assessment of C-Band Mobile Telecommunications Interference Impact on Low Range Radar Altimeter Operations

 

[ghostface147]

I am very short on time this week, but as a pilot, I will attempt to answer a few of the questions being posted here. The FAA is tasked with protecting public safety. The band being rolled out by AT&T and Verizon is right next to the frequencies used by the special altimeter systems that we use to determine the precise height above the ground during instrument approaches, which are sometimes in poor visibility or even no visibility conditions. As it turns out, this band of 5G frequencies, if broadcasted strong enough, can and do effect our altimeters ability to read our precise height above the ground.

Most of our planes can go all the way down to 100ft above the ground in limited to no visibility before needing to see some part of the runway environment to determine if we can safely land. In some special cases, we can go even lower. Keep in mind that jet engines take a few seconds to spool up and produce enough power to execute a go-around if we cannot safely land. Now, think about just how low a plane actually is when it is only 100ft above the ground and descending (only 1/3rd of a football field) and think about what would happen if our special altimeter systems were off, even by a little bit, and how catastrophic that could be.

As such, the FAA is pulling the plug and will not allow us to even try these instrument approaches if AT&T and Verizon were to implement the bands today. We simply cannot take that risk with lives on board and millions of dollars worth of cargo. This would delay and cancel countless flights. But that leads to more: keep in mind that we go from one flight to another, and cancellations like this would cause a cascading effect of cancellations across the entire system. Think about what happens when there is a major Nor'Easter....flights on the West Coast are cancelled because of the cascading effects on planes and crews.

The solution is not as simple as "put new equipment on planes" as that takes years of developmental and operational testing, certification, and of course, big, big money. Now, whether or not someone in the government has sat on this info for years is above my pay grade...but when it comes to the immediate action by the FAA and as a result, the airlines and cargo carriers, we must halt operations (if things were moving forward as planned) because we cannot risk a crash killing hundreds of people or destroying hundreds of millions of dollars in property.

This has everything to do with public safety. And it has everything to do with keeping the current air transport system up and running.

But the 220 mhz buffer is supposed to negate that right? As opposed to the 100 mhz buffer used overseas.

 

[kaz911]

The real question is - have anyone using any 5G even noticed when they are on 5G and when they slide to 4G?

I have asked plenty here in the UK and nobody have noticed any improvements at all and can't tell if they have actually used and been connected to 5G or not - ever.

The dead spots are still the same dead spots - the downloads speeds are roughly the same - unless you are really lucky and stand right next to the antenna mast. The phone companies are still just as bad at mast deployment and roaming as they have always been. Tech can't win over bad "cost saving" management and deployment.

5G is kind of "useless" for generic use - but great for low latency applications and a few other "currently niche" applications.

 

[Phil77354]

I am very short on time this week, but as a pilot, I will attempt to answer a few of the questions being posted here. The FAA is tasked with protecting public safety. The band being rolled out by AT&T and Verizon is right next to the frequencies used by the special altimeter systems that we use to determine the precise height above the ground during instrument approaches, which are sometimes in poor visibility or even no visibility conditions. As it turns out, this band of 5G frequencies, if broadcasted strong enough, can and do effect our altimeters ability to read our precise height above the ground.

Most of our planes can go all the way down to 100ft above the ground in limited to no visibility before needing to see some part of the runway environment to determine if we can safely land. In some special cases, we can go even lower. Keep in mind that jet engines take a few seconds to spool up and produce enough power to execute a go-around if we cannot safely land. Now, think about just how low a plane actually is when it is only 100ft above the ground and descending (only 1/3rd of a football field) and think about what would happen if our special altimeter systems were off, even by a little bit, and how catastrophic that could be.

As such, the FAA is pulling the plug and will not allow us to even try these instrument approaches if AT&T and Verizon were to implement the bands today. We simply cannot take that risk with lives on board and millions of dollars worth of cargo. This would delay and cancel countless flights. But that leads to more: keep in mind that we go from one flight to another, and cancellations like this would cause a cascading effect of cancellations across the entire system. Think about what happens when there is a major Nor'Easter....flights on the West Coast are cancelled because of the cascading effects on planes and crews.

The solution is not as simple as "put new equipment on planes" as that takes years of developmental and operational testing, certification, and of course, big, big money. Now, whether or not someone in the government has sat on this info for years is above my pay grade...but when it comes to the immediate action by the FAA and as a result, the airlines and cargo carriers, we must halt operations (if things were moving forward as planned) because we cannot risk a crash killing hundreds of people or destroying hundreds of millions of dollars in property.

This has everything to do with public safety. And it has everything to do with keeping the current air transport system up and running.

Excellent post. 👍

Yes indeed, big thank-you to @Bryan Bowler for giving us facts and a better understanding of the situation.

Much appreciated.

 

[Hunter5117]

The real question is - have anyone using any 5G even noticed when they are on 5G and when they slide to 4G?

Speaking for my own experience, yes, very much. 5G is worlds faster. I notice it most when I am stuck waiting somewhere and either streaming video or music, quality is perfect and latency virtually non-existent. In fact, at my home, I have no wired connections coming in to the house, I get all my internet service via a 5G home internet router. We consume a lot of bandwidth, my son is a gamer, and it works flawlessly.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Cool. Maybe this delay will allow them to reprioritize more residential areas like my neighborhood between Denver and Golden, CO. Right now, 5G is virtually nonexistent here. Literally can’t load MR at my house - which we can all agree is totally unacceptable. 🤪

 

[chrisf60647]

Speaking for my own experience, yes, very much. 5G is worlds faster. I notice it most when I am stuck waiting somewhere and either streaming video or music, quality is perfect and latency virtually non-existent. In fact, at my home, I have no wired connections coming in to the house, I get all my internet service via a 5G home internet router. We consume a lot of bandwidth, my son is a gamer, and it works flawlessly.

Disagree. 5g is not faster and sometimes slower than LTE. Now, 5Guw (Verizon as that's what i have), when your phone hits is the real deal. I live in a big city and my phone connected to 5Guw once a the aiport and that's where you see the insane speeds that i hope we start to see tomorrow.

 

[Breaking Good]

At this point it should be painfully obvious even to the most casual observer that de-regulating the airline industry was a mistake of epic proportions. Bring back the Civil Aeronautics Board.

 

[Cmd-Z]

The devices in question are radar altimeters that are used on many approaches and landings. These are legacy devices that use mm-wave frequencies and have been installed for decades. To replace them with something that works well would take years and potentially hundreds of thousands of US dollars per plane.

Slight correction ... these are not mm-wave frequencies, this is C Band (3.7 - 4.2 GHz). Millimeter wave is where the free space wavelength is < 1 cm (which is about 30 GHz) and > 1 mm (which is about 300 GHz).

 

[AZhappyjack]

But why just now?

Follow the $$$

 

[CausticSoda]

I am very short on time this week, but as a pilot, I will attempt to answer a few of the questions being posted here. The FAA is tasked with protecting public safety. The band being rolled out by AT&T and Verizon is right next to the frequencies used by the special altimeter systems that we use to determine the precise height above the ground during instrument approaches, which are sometimes in poor visibility or even no visibility conditions. As it turns out, this band of 5G frequencies, if broadcasted strong enough, can and do effect our altimeters ability to read our precise height above the ground.

Most of our planes can go all the way down to 100ft above the ground in limited to no visibility before needing to see some part of the runway environment to determine if we can safely land. In some special cases, we can go even lower. Keep in mind that jet engines take a few seconds to spool up and produce enough power to execute a go-around if we cannot safely land. Now, think about just how low a plane actually is when it is only 100ft above the ground and descending (only 1/3rd of a football field) and think about what would happen if our special altimeter systems were off, even by a little bit, and how catastrophic that could be.

As such, the FAA is pulling the plug and will not allow us to even try these instrument approaches if AT&T and Verizon were to implement the bands today. We simply cannot take that risk with lives on board and millions of dollars worth of cargo. This would delay and cancel countless flights. But that leads to more: keep in mind that we go from one flight to another, and cancellations like this would cause a cascading effect of cancellations across the entire system. Think about what happens when there is a major Nor'Easter....flights on the West Coast are cancelled because of the cascading effects on planes and crews.

The solution is not as simple as "put new equipment on planes" as that takes years of developmental and operational testing, certification, and of course, big, big money. Now, whether or not someone in the government has sat on this info for years is above my pay grade...but when it comes to the immediate action by the FAA and as a result, the airlines and cargo carriers, we must halt operations (if things were moving forward as planned) because we cannot risk a crash killing hundreds of people or destroying hundreds of millions of dollars in property.

This has everything to do with public safety. And it has everything to do with keeping the current air transport system up and running.

Thank you for your post, but I think most of us already took this all as read. The outstanding questions seem to be 1) why is it a problem that seems to be limited to the US and 2) why was the problem not predicted and resolved before now? Does anyone know that (for fact, rather than supposition)?

 

[priamXus]

This is why government regulators are a good thing and it’s a total lie that the “free market will optimize best societal decisions."

Government isn’t good for everything, even most things. But they do play a critical role in a decent, modern society.

It’s backwards Teddy boy.
They are doing this because they know they can do whatever they want thanks to someone that will regulate.

If free market and no one in the middle they’d be pushed by the carriers to implement whatever it takes to continue in business.

In your regulated world they do nothing and threat to stop flights.

 

[BurgDog]

Thank you for your post, but I think most of us already took this all as read. The outstanding questions seem to be 1) why is it a problem that seems to be limited to the US and 2) why was the problem not predicated and resolved before now? Does anyone know that (for fact, rather than supposition)?

US implementation is different so experiences in other countries don't mean much. Problem was predicted, current solution is no Cat II or lower approaches in airports where this cell-band is turned too close to the approach path. This is also a problem with helipads say at hospitals. Long term solution is upgrade equipment in the aircraft which will happen eventually.

 

[SigurTom]

The two carriers paid billions of dollars for the C-Band spectrum to bolster their 5G networks, and have ensured customers that improvements are coming soon.

*assured

 

[Allyance]

This only affects towers within 2 miles around the airports that need to remain at existing service. I would heed the warnings from designers/builders of commercial aircraft about certain model planes and avionics. People are reacting to this problem as if all 5G towers. Typical snarky comments without understanding the problems. I live near a small airport where private jets are taking off and landing all day. Hopeful the pilots know how their planes work react.

 

[kingtj1971]

This is why government regulators are a good thing and it’s a total lie that the “free market will optimize best societal decisions."

Government isn’t good for everything, even most things. But they do play a critical role in a decent, modern society.

Or... this *may* well be a case of businesses trying to leverage the power of government to act as a bully, to block another company from doing something completely reasonable, just out of fear it MIGHT cost them a little money to upgrade their own technology?

I mean, say the only real issue here turns out to be one or two very old models of altimeters, still in use on some planes in American's fleet? They could just replace them with ones that the 5G band doesn't affect and everything would be fine. But ... cheaper for them to just get the FAA to deem 5G "unsafe" around airports everywhere and block cellular providers from using it after paying billions for the bandwidth.

 

[CWallace]

The outstanding questions seem to be 1) why is it a problem that seems to be limited to the US and 2) why was the problem not predicted and resolved before now? Does anyone know that (for fact, rather than supposition)?

1) US 5G C-band operates in frequency ranges close to those used by the Radar Altimeters used by commercial airliners to determine how far above the ground they are. Other countries 5G services do not operate near these frequencies.

2) US 5G transmitters can operate at significantly higher power levels at peak than other countries. So their area of effect is much larger.

3) Some countries (like France) aim the transmitters towards the ground. The US aim them parallel to the ground to improve their effective area.

4) Some countries (like France) have have larger "buffer areas" around their major commercial airports so aircraft are higher off the ground so when added to smaller transmission areas and lower transmission power levels they are both less-susceptible to encountering interference and if they do, they are at higher altitudes and have more time to take corrective action.

5) It appears that no serious testing was performed by the FAA, the aviation OEMs (both aircraft and electronics) and the telecoms. So it sounds like the potential impact and seriousness of this issue was not seriously investigated until recently.

 

[CWallace]

I mean, say the only real issue here turns out to be one or two very old models of altimeters, still in use on some planes in American's fleet? They could just replace them with ones that the 5G band doesn't affect and everything would be fine.

Based on reports from the FAA and the aircraft OEMs, it sounds like the Boeing 777 and 787 could be susceptible, which both use systems built by Honeywell. There are thousands of them in revenue service and they (especially the 777) carry a fair amount of the world's international traffic.

 

[Hunter5117]

it sounds like the Boeing 777 and 787

And I am pretty sure these planes are not outfitted with "very old" models of altimeters.

 

[russell_314]

This sounds like someone at the airlines trying to be relevant. We’ve heard this before when cell phones first came out. Planes were going to fall out of the sky if someone turned on their phone 🤦‍♂️

 

[Premium1]

I love how verizon and att absolutely torched the FAA...

ATT- "...since they (FAA) have not utilized the two years they've had to responsibly plan for this deployment. We are frustrated by the FAA's inability to do what nearly 40 countries have done, which is to safely deploy 5G technology without disrupting aviation services..."

Verizon- "The FAA and our nation's airlines have not been able to fully resolve navigating 5G around airports, despite it being safe and fully operational in more than 40 other countries"

 

[Premium1]

(cue whiny Gen Z/Millennial voice)
Cancelled flights and plane crashes are a small price to pay if I get faster Instagram notifications and TikTok uploads. Defund the FAA!

Not.

Ah yes because planes are dropping from the skies in the other countries that have been using C-band for a while now.

 

[steve333]

5G is a catastrophe for all life on Earth. So some people can download videos a little faster.
Humanity never ceases to disappoint.