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I did. I’m curious what countries they’re saying have done this without problems and under what conditions. I suspect they’re just parroting an argument they like rather than really understanding the reasons it’s being discussed.
 
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News reports today say that 5G is being rolled out except in areas around airports that the FAA has designated.

Anyone know how you can tell if a phone is now getting the full 5G connection to their cell service? My AT&T iPhone has been displaying '5G' for a long time but I know that is misleading.
 
This wouldn’t be the case if AT&T and Verizon had paid U.S airlines for the rollout in advance. Now they want to put a hold to it. 🤦🏻‍♀️
You pretty much nailed it. The FAA/Airlines have known about this rollout for years. The Airlines/FAA have done NOTHING to ready themselves for it. The completely over-the-top, theatrical claims of doom by airline CEOs is nothing more than fear mongering by the airlines to get the wireless carriers to pay for any needed upgrades. That's all this is.

The FAA has already cleared a good chunk of planes to fly. As the wireless carriers have also pointed out...which anyone with half a brain already saw is that other countries that use the same bands for 5G don't cause any issues for our airlines which fly in and out of said countries every day.

Also, the safeguards the carriers already agreed to previously were bigger than the ones in some of these other countries and yet....still NO issues whatsoever. So yeah, its over-the-top, theatrical fear mongering by airline CEOs to get handouts.
 
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Edit: oops, forgot that T-Mobile can’t roll out C-Band yet till 2023.

But my original statement stands. They should’ve rolled it out anyway. It’s the airlines that needs to adopt quickly, like the European counterparts.

Like Steve Jobs said, “technology moves fast”

You’re at least on somewhat of the right rails. T-Mobile has a different frequency for their mid-band 5G… and a lot of it. They got, basically, the entire available portfolio of 2.5 ghz from their Sprint acquisition. This was previously considered high band in the 3G/4G world and T Mobile, lacking the huge swaths of mmWave the others had, pegged it for 5G and presented their “layer cake” approach, even using it in their filings in support of merger plans. They ended up being right, and the additional now-classified-mid-band became a new target for greenfield deployment. They didn’t really bid much on C-Band or the more recent expansion of that, CBRS (results just released in the past few days). This is truly AT&T’s, and to a much bigger degree, Verizon’s opportunity to catch up to T-Mobile (it feels really odd to say that).
 
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The real question is - have anyone using any 5G even noticed when they are on 5G and when they slide to 4G?

I have asked plenty here in the UK and nobody have noticed any improvements at all and can't tell if they have actually used and been connected to 5G or not - ever.

The dead spots are still the same dead spots - the downloads speeds are roughly the same - unless you are really lucky and stand right next to the antenna mast. The phone companies are still just as bad at mast deployment and roaming as they have always been. Tech can't win over bad "cost saving" management and deployment.

5G is kind of "useless" for generic use - but great for low latency applications and a few other "currently niche" applications.

This is because 5G allows for deployments over top of an LTE signal - you may see the letters “NSA” present in a field test mode. That means it’s Non-StandAlone - it’s riding the LTE core setup and is anchored to it. Stand Alone service is totally new core, new anchor. NSA allows for the speed and capacity benefits of NR, yet requires nothing more than a configuration change to existing hardware; ie, it’s fast and easy to do it so we’ve gotten 5G available through so much of our coverage areas so quickly as opposed to the snail paced 3G and 4G rollouts (comparatively). Stand Alone is all new hardware in addition to the LTE gear - which should give better experiences since there’s no signal sharing.
 
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This is correct. In the US the issues are with AT&T and Verizon. T-Mobile is not as close to the mm wave frequency of the Radar (Radio) Altimeter used in Auto Land Cat 2 and Cat 3 landings.

None of these are mmWave. If these altimeters had an issue with mmWave, everything under them - ie, the entire cellular world which to date, in the US has functioned under 2700 mhz - would also be an issue. mmWave is some 20+ ghz away from 4.2 ghz on its lowest end - 24.25 ghz being the lowest frequency of band n258.

T-Mobile’s EBS/BRS occupies 2496-2690 mhz.
 
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You pretty much nailed it. The FAA/Airlines have known about this rollout for years. The Airlines/FAA have done NOTHING to ready themselves for it. The completely over-the-top, theatrical claims of doom by airline CEOs is nothing more than fear mongering by the airlines to get the wireless carriers to pay for any needed upgrades. That's all this is.

The FAA has already cleared a good chunk of planes to fly. As the wireless carriers have also pointed out...which anyone with half a brain already saw is that other countries that use the same bands for 5G don't cause any issues for our airlines which fly in and out of said countries every day.

Also, the safeguards the carriers already agreed to previously were bigger than the ones in some of these other countries and yet....still NO issues whatsoever. So yeah, its over-the-top, theatrical fear mongering by airline CEOs to get handouts.
Ok, so you’re taking the side of wireless on this? I’m curious how much you actually know, versus how much you have an opinion that you’re supporting by unfounded assertion? When you say the aviation industry has done all-caps-nothing, what are you basing that upon? Do you have knowledge of what’s happening, or are you basing it on the fact that you haven’t read about it on MacRumors before now?

I’ll be honest, this wasn’t on my (pun intended) radar before this article came up but I’m not sure why anyone would think that you could study, specify, design, test and deploy a new international life safety critical aircraft landing system standard in less than 2 years.
 
Anyone know how you can tell if a phone is now getting the full 5G connection to their cell service? My AT&T iPhone has been displaying '5G' for a long time but I know that is misleading.

I am on AT&T, as well, but not sure my plan supports 5G. I know that they used "5GE" as an icon on the iPhone for LTE before the notch (now it just shows "AT&T" on the lock screen) so I guess they would drop the "E" part on true 5G?
 
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Ok, so you’re taking the side of wireless on this? I’m curious how much you actually know, versus how much you have an opinion that you’re supporting by unfounded assertion? When you say the aviation industry has done all-caps-nothing, what are you basing that upon? Do you have knowledge of what’s happening, or are you basing it on the fact that you haven’t read about it on MacRumors before now?

I’ll be honest, this wasn’t on my (pun intended) radar before this article came up but I’m not sure why anyone would think that you could study, specify, design, test and deploy a new international life safety critical aircraft landing system standard in less than 2 years.
I think it’s more the FAA reneged on their agreement to accept FCC decisions regarding these bandwidths, and the airlines suffering at the whims of the FAA’s waffling, and the wireless carriers not wanting to be blamed for a bunch of canceled flights beyond the airlines’ control that would be more rightfully blamed on the FAA than the wireless carriers. Either way, the airlines are screwed. It really is the FAA’s mess. The airlines and cell carriers are being taken for a ride.

WSJ article is pretty helpful:

The Federal Communications Commission reviewed these concerns during notice-and-comment on its plan to repurpose C-band from satellite operators. In March 2020, it approved a 258-page decision that included a safe buffer between the bands occupied by altimeters and 5G—larger than many other countries require.
Yet some 20 months later, the FAA demanded to relitigate the FCC decision and took airlines and carriers hostage. If Verizon and AT&T didn’t pause their 5G rollout, the FAA would order flights grounded or diverted. AT&T and Verizon didn’t want to be blamed for that, so they twice agreed to scale back and delay their rollouts.
 
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I think it’s more the FAA reneged on their agreement to accept FCC decisions regarding these bandwidths, and the airlines suffering at the whims of the FAA’s waffling, and the wireless carriers not wanting to be blamed for a bunch of canceled flights beyond the airlines’ control that would be more rightfully blamed on the FAA than the wireless carriers. Either way, the airlines are screwed. It really is the FAA’s mess. The airlines and cell carriers are being taken for a ride.

WSJ article is pretty helpful:


Paywalled unfortunately.
My opinion: stop pointing fingers for now. Fix the issue. Do a root cause analysis. Fix the root cause so it doesn’t happen again.
This has been going on for years, and someone or a lot of folks dropped the ball…
 
Paywalled unfortunately.
I included a blurb.
My opinion: stop pointing fingers for now. Fix the issue. Do a root cause analysis. Fix the root cause so it doesn’t happen again.
This has been going on for years, and someone or a lot of folks dropped the ball…
Except when the issue is inept regulating, the only way to fix the issue is to point at the regulator and say, “get your act together.”
 
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I am on AT&T, as well, but not sure my plan supports 5G. I know that they used "5GE" as an icon on the iPhone for LTE before the notch (now it just shows "AT&T" on the lock screen) so I guess they would drop the "E" part on true 5G?
In my area the display on my iPhone has been showing '5G' (no 'E') for several months (at least). I think I've noticed '5GE' in other areas but not my own local area. This is why I was asking the question, since my phone already shows 5G even before this roll-out, how do I know if / when they do actually put the faster 'real 5G' in place? Seems like there should be a way to see this on the phone somehow? This is probably not the correct discussion thread to ask the question, I'll see if there is a more appropriate place here to post. Thanks.
 
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None of these are mmWave. If these altimeters had an issue with mmWave, everything under them - ie, the entire cellular world which to date, in the US has functioned under 2700 mhz - would also be an issue. mmWave is some 20+ ghz away from 4.2 ghz on its lowest end - 24.25 ghz being the lowest frequency of band n258.

T-Mobile’s EBS/BRS occupies 2496-2690 mhz.

Yes, I didn't mean to use MMW. AT&T and Verizon use 3700-3800MHz which is too close to the current 4200-4400MHz used today by Radio Altimeters, IMO.

The most likely fix will be to install newer Radio Altimeters with more advanced signal filtering on older aircraft. Costly and time consuming unless the US can accept the way it's done in Europe is better. Such as significantly reducing the C-Band Power transmitted on towers within a 2 mile radius, and or repositioning the tower transmitter antenna in more of a downwind fashion. .

Everything being what it is, it really should never have come to last minute crisis that it is. Not a strong case for promoting a Culture of Safety in the US.
 
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Is anybody here a pilot? You can't just magically retrofit hundreds of passenger and freight airliners' radio altimeters so people can have faster YouTube.

Many models of these larger planes, and even smaller jets, can't make Cat III ILS approaches in bad weather without having a functioning radio altimeter, and 5G is so close in frequency to the radio altimeter's frequency that testing has already shown interference.

If conditions are bad enough, and 5G is interfering with the radio altimeter, it's not possible to land, and the plane has to divert to another airport (hopefully). Just think of the cost in time and money if that happens just 10% of the time, as the airlines think it will.

And one of the reasons that other countries such as China don't have this problem? They chose better 5G frequencies than the U.S. did.
 
Is anybody here a pilot? You can't just magically retrofit hundreds of passenger and freight airliners' radio altimeters so people can have faster YouTube.

Many models of these larger planes, and even smaller jets, can't make Cat III ILS approaches in bad weather without having a functioning radio altimeter, and 5G is so close in frequency to the radio altimeter's frequency that testing has already shown interference.

If conditions are bad enough, and 5G is interfering with the radio altimeter, it's not possible to land, and the plane has to divert to another airport (hopefully). Just think of the cost in time and money if that happens just 10% of the time, as the airlines think it will.

And one of the reasons that other countries such as China don't have this problem? They chose better 5G frequencies than the U.S. did.
They have had 2 years to upgrade the altimeters which is what the rest of the world did. If the issue is the altimeter is using side bands outside of what it should be then the requirement is on the airlines to fix their own equipment, if the transmitters are operating outside of their range then the fix is required by the carriers. Which is causing the issue?
 
Many models of these larger planes, and even smaller jets, can't make Cat III ILS approaches in bad weather without having a functioning radio altimeter, and 5G is so close in frequency to the radio altimeter's frequency that testing has already shown interference.
Cat II ILS as well needs RA. Makes the situation worse.

They have had 2 years to upgrade the altimeters which is what the rest of the world did.

They didn't need to upgrade the altimeters, those same foreign planes are just as restricted in the US as American planes and American planes have no problems in foreign countries with this issue.
 
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Cat II ILS as well needs RA. Makes the situation worse.



They didn't need to upgrade the altimeters, those same foreign planes are just as restricted in the US as American planes.
So they claim. Where the hell was the FAA 2 or more years ago during the public comment submission? Their data is questionable at best.
 
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They have had 2 years to upgrade the altimeters which is what the rest of the world did. If the issue is the altimeter is using side bands outside of what it should be then the requirement is on the airlines to fix their own equipment, if the transmitters are operating outside of their range then the fix is required by the carriers. Which is causing the issue?
look at this post #126 by @CWallace ... ignore the text, just look at the graphics, that pretty much explains it all
 
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Paywalled unfortunately.
My opinion: stop pointing fingers for now. Fix the issue. Do a root cause analysis. Fix the root cause so it doesn’t happen again.
This has been going on for years, and someone or a lot of folks dropped the ball…
Search for the title, WSJ will often let you by the paywall through search engines.
I think it’s more the FAA reneged on their agreement to accept FCC decisions regarding these bandwidths, and the airlines suffering at the whims of the FAA’s waffling, and the wireless carriers not wanting to be blamed for a bunch of canceled flights beyond the airlines’ control that would be more rightfully blamed on the FAA than the wireless carriers. Either way, the airlines are screwed. It really is the FAA’s mess. The airlines and cell carriers are being taken for a ride.

WSJ article is pretty helpful:


So the response to my request for facts is more unsupported opinion? Now we’ve gone from opinion to political hit pieces. Should I be surprised that a News Corp opinion piece starts with “It’s hard to know which is more messed up these days—air transportation, or the Biden Administration.” And then says “his Administration created the mess” that began in March 2020?

The only links from this opinion piece to confirmable facts are links to the AT&T and Boeing stock prices.

So, where do I find fault beyond the lack of factual support?

Blaming the current administration for decisions made nearly a year before it began.

Blaming the FAA for the problem, because the FCC approved a 258 page decision in March 2020. There’s a certain reliance here on the fact that the audience will conflate the FAA and FCC.

It wouldn’t be hard to link to that decision, but I suspect when I find it that it won’t fully support the WSJ’s opinion.

I don’t think the number of pages means anything in this context— the RTCA report linked above is 231 pages. If they’d just made it 30 pages longer, would it win the argument?

“At issue is the C-band spectrum that carriers plan to use to blanket metro areas with 5G. Carriers paid the U.S. government $80 billion for this valuable spectrum, but the Federal Aviation Administration now won’t let them use it.“. This is blatantly false and contradicted by the later statement that “the FAA said it had cleared only 45% of U.S. commercial airplanes to land in low-visibility conditions at only 48 of the 88 airports it deemed at highest risk from potential 5G interference”.

The FAA said carriers could use their spectrum. They said some aircraft at some airports couldn’t make low visibility approaches if their instruments were at risk.

It’s further contradicted by the AT&T quote they include: “At our sole discretion, we have voluntarily agreed to temporarily defer turning on a limited number of towers around certain airport runways.”

So, again, AT&T did this at their sole discretion, the FAA didn’t prevent them, and it affects a limited number of towers near certain runways at certain airports and doesn’t prevent them from blanketing metro areas with 5G.


So I return to my question— what evidence is there that the FAA did all-caps-nothing to address this massive change in signal environment? How would you expect that such a change could be implemented in the time available? I’m still looking for factual evidence, not political farce.
 
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They have had 2 years to upgrade the altimeters which is what the rest of the world did.
What altimeters are the rest of world using?
If the issue is the altimeter is using side bands outside of what it should be then the requirement is on the airlines to fix their own equipment
They aren't using sidebands, they are susceptible to out of band interference because they are using front end filters designed for a world when 3.7-3.98GHZ was used by distant satellites, not transmitters at the runway edge. The radars need to be redesigned, tested and approved-- not by the airlines, but by the equipment manufacturers who provide instruments to the aircraft manufacturers who provide aircraft to the airlines. Until they are, they can't make low visibility approaches at certain airports.
 
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