U.S. Government Calls Apple's Opposition to iPhone Unlocking Order a 'Diversion,' Says Fears Are 'Overblown'

[kingtj]

You know what? I don't think someone even has to believe most of what you've said here to still get that our government is power-hungry and trampling on all of our individual freedoms, one step at a time, in order to gain more control and leverage over us.

Personally, I think the "NASA is fake" assertions are rather blatantly ridiculous. There are too many intelligent people who spent a big part of their lives working on the space program in some capacity to honestly believe the whole thing was a lie. But it doesn't really matter if you believe the moon mission footage was all rigged on a sound-stage or not, because there are SO many bigger issues going on all around us.

People only have to objectively study graphs showing the average "buying power" of American workers over the decades to determine that it's gone down (coinciding nicely with the time we got off of the "gold standard", BTW) -- and it's clear that the Federal Reserve Banks are having an increasingly difficult time manipulating the markets to do what they'd like them to do. (Holding interest rates at near 0% for so long shows that tactic has lost its effectiveness.)

A huge chunk of our annual government spending keeps going to the military and war, and we're not getting anything tangible back from it. (That traditional idea that war helps stimulate the economy is proving to be inaccurate when your wars are long and drawn out, with no clear signs of a definable victory.)

And yes, the FBI has continuously pushed to get increased ability to conduct surveillance on people without warrants or probable cause. (From their point of view, I guess one can understand the motivation too. The more of that they can do as they please, the easier their job becomes. But IMO, law enforcement was never supposed to be easy. It's darn difficult to do it properly while respecting the laws of the land and individual freedoms/rights.)

It is time for all of us to wake up.... we are slaves in the US... enslaved by the FEDs with it's Dollar.... lied to by the Government, Nasa is fake, 911 was a setup to strip us of our freedoms and the wars we fight are unjust, but we don't see that because our media is controlled... we are in a mind control situation....we are living in a bubble created by our deceivers.

Now our deceivers want full access into our iPhones.

 

[npmacuser5]

If I were Apple I would do it...after one year of paid work, the DOJ keeps asking how we doing, still working on it. End of second year, still working on it and we told you it would be difficult. End of third year, almost there. End of year 10, Apple, damn this difficult but our profits are way up, you still need that information?

 

[macfacts]

Plus there is one more particular. In order to comply with the FBI requests, the "hacking software" will have to be developed as by FBI specifications. In other words, it's the FBI that would have to decide the final requirement to say that Apple complied with it. I don't expect to see the FBI writing in the SRD that "this software shall work only on iPhone with UDID 20942234".

Here is portion of the court order (first page) and Note the iPhone ID:

 

[Thunderhawks]

I have to say, you Americans here on MacRumors seem like a good bunch of fellows, but your government is appalling. I don't hold the UK one in high esteem, either.

These statements from them are nothing short of embarrassing and unworthy of intelligent discourse. They appear to be taking the judges for cretins with low intelligence.

My gut feeling is that the US security departments need a complete overhaul, starting with the removal of James Comey. Is this or is this not the most incompetent US government in its history?

Nothing beats George Bush jr.

 

[gnasher729]

Despite bing in Australia, I'm with Apple. Judge Napolitano said the FBI's request for Apple to basically hack their own phone is a Criminal Offence under the US Constitution and it's illegal for a Court to order this. Judge Nepolitano says hacking is a felony and the Federal Judge's cannot order you to break the law. There is no grey area here and its not ambiguous. the Judge also said to force Apple to do something against its will, at it's own expense is prohibited by the US Constitution.

Unfortunately, both sides in this TV discussion used totally wrong arguments. The side _for_ the hacking basically had the argument "let's do it". Yes, that's their argument. Nothing else. The side _against_ the hacking said that it would be illegal. It isn't. There is a search warrant, and the owner of the phone is not the killer but the San Bernardion county, where he was an employee, so hacking into this phone is legal. If the FBI asked Apple to hack into my phone without my permission and without a search warrant, then it would be illegal for Apple to do so, but not here.

Apple's real argument (one that for example the NSA fully agrees with) is that anything created to hack into this phone can get out and endanger the security of millions of iPhone users, which incidentaly includes politicians, FBI agents, military and so on. That's the reason why the FBI shouldn't even ask Apple, because it breaks everyone's security.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Here is portion of the court order (first page) and Note the iPhone ID:

Interesting

 

[H2SO4]

They'd better work to prevent terrorists attacks, not to search terrorists phones after it happened.

Come on that’s ridiculous and you know it. Yes of course they need to prevent attacks, but they also need to acquire data to better help prevent them in the future. Quite often things you learn after the fact teach you things and you know it.
Whether that’s the case here or not I don’t know but kind of an empty statement you made.
[doublepost=1457670390][/doublepost]

well this just shows that politicians have no idea about how technology actually works as usual. shocker

Also maybe those in th tech sector have no idea about what’s needed by the politicians? As usual. Shocker.

 

[Jess13]

Nothing beats George Bush jr.

In certain respects, but with USG illegal spying crimes: Obama has G.W. Bush beat.

 

[H2SO4]

The government only has themselves to blame for all this hooplah. Requesting Apple help them decrypt the iPhone to retrieve evidence off it isn't going above and beyond any set laws. But at the same time, you can't help but feel they've poisoned the well of goodwill with all the demands for backdoors and common encryption bypasses they made beforehand.

It'd be like the police bullying a local locksmith, demanding he disable the trap doors and Indianan Jones style booby traps while you try every key you have in your possession. They make a big deal out of it, deride the guy on TV, and generally make asses of themselves. Then one day they lose the keys to an important crime scene...

Agree with the first half, not the second. So I edited it for you.

 

[lordofthereef]

I am not picking sides here but...

Apple does have the power, considering all updates must be signed by their servers, to tailor build a software for said specific hardware and then destroy all traces of that software once it has been used to extract the data from the phone(s) in question.

We keep talking about a back door built into all installations of iOS, and that simply doesn't have to be the case. Apple has the ultimate power due to the very nature of how iOS installs work, and frankly have worked, from the very beginning.

Again, I am absolutely not picking sides. I am not saying that because they can do it they should have to do it. But there absolutely is a safe way to do this. Or at least a safer way than is really being discussed by the majority of folks. I haven't even discussed the precedent this sets, but I feel that has been pretty accurately portrayed both in news posts and in subsequent discussions.

 

[H2SO4]

They have, but the average voter does not. When the case is stated in simple, unequivocal terms then it is easier to find broader support for this. Many people seem to think this already, as recent polls have shown. The government is ultimately interested in more power to sustain its independence from the legislature.



I thought this is America? Do they really say that Apple is not free to make its products secure?

This guy gets it. The average voter has no idea about politics either even though they like to think they have.
[doublepost=1457671390][/doublepost]

It already has more.

What bothers many is how many people prefer corporations governing we the people, instead of we the people. The anti-government folk have yet to put out anything that makes having big business do governing being a superior choice.
[doublepost=1457649956][/doublepost]

In rarefied cases as proven by deliberation to ask and receive a court order... people are blowing things so grossly out of proportion that it is beyond belief.

Especially as many of the people claiming "human rights!!" are anti-human rights when it comes to worker conditions or things that worsen worker conditions with the factories they use or choose to hire. Now if anybody knows why Apple supports the TPP trade agreement and what the TPP contains, maybe I'm entirely wrong on the issue - at which point I will humbly and unreservedly apologize for my ignorance.

Yep. In short, we are all dishonest. If you seriously think that corporations are any less bent than the governement then I’d say you are extremely short sighted.
Lots of people here say Cook would make a great president, er……..sorry he’s spent years evading taxes. He’s done what the government do.
He’s found a loophole. We pay every dollar we owe, NO. We don't just comply with the law, we comply with the spirit of the law. NO, NO, NO! He funnels all his money through Ireland because it’s not illegal, the ironic thing is there aren’t even any Apple stores there.
The government found one too, when they want to waterboard somebody they take them to another country where it’s not illegal.

When it suits you because that guy being water boarded has an orange jumpsuit and a slightly arab sounding name or appearance it’s Ok is it?

The FBI are correct in one thing, (that they are also guilty of), and the press coverage has made it worse. Apple have devalued the discussion with excessive hyperbole. You all know that’s true.
If you’re familiar with their Keynotes or interviews you KNOW that hyperbole on maximum attack is the Apple SOP.

A lot of people from both sides need to weigh in here to balance the discussion. Ultimately the decision they come to will not please everybody but at least we may get to a compromise and make sure we have explored every avenue.

 

[pika2000]

It's amazing seeing the amount of focus and effort put into this by the American politicians and justice system, using the American taxpayers dollars at the same time. I wish they would do the same on other issues like providing affordable education and healthcare for the American people. Just saying.

Apple will succumb. The American people are already willingly sponsor their government in this effort.

 

[Bubba Satori]

"No company is above the law." President Obama

 

[H2SO4]

Apple will succumb. The American people are already willingly sponsor their government in this effort.

Explain please?

 

[pika2000]

So sad that the government is trying so hard to convince us that this loss of privacy rights is a modest request. This is supposed to be the government of the people. Well, this individual says that it is not worth forcing Apple or any company to weaken a device privacy protections.

Err, it is the government of the people.

Remember, Americans voted Bush twice, and Patriot Act was conceived. Then American voted Obama twice, who called Snowden as a traitor, and extended the Patriot Act.

There are plenty of ways for Americans to change their government, yet they keep voting for the same politicians in office.

So, this government is the government of the people. The people has chosen.

 

[LizKat]

The only debate is whether the people can hold back the government, or if democracy is truly gone.

Yes. I resent the government's attempt to categorize the negative response to their demands on Apple as fearful. It's not a fear response. It's pushback against the government's unreasonable demands and dishonest representations. The point of debate is merely whether the government means to insult our intelligence or is too stupid to understand the issues here.

The government goes on to suggest that there's no evidence a narrow order could apply to additional devices in the future, but if it does, Apple is "more than able to comply with a large volume of law-enforcement requests."

Seriously? Translation: "This is a one time deal and not about setting a precedent but when we win and thereby set the precedent that we do want to establish, we'll be back so fast and so often that your head will spin."

 

[pika2000]

Explain please?

How do you think the FBI and the American justice system are funded? Money from thin air? Taxes. And who pay taxes? American people.

 

[fastlanephil]

I don't see Apple being successful by taking it through the federal courts. If the Supreme Court did take the case, right now it would have to be a 5 to 3 decision for Apple. A 4 to 4 split would mean that the Circuit Court's decision stands.

It sounds like asking congress for new law might not be to Apple's advantage either.

 

[pika2000]

Explain please?

How do you think the FBI and the American justice system are funded? Money from thin air? Taxes. And who pay taxes? American people.

 

[Jess13]

The government found one too, when they want to waterboard somebody they take them to another country where it’s not illegal.

Torture is illegal in U.S. and International law, and it is a war crime. One of President Obama’s worst crimes was to protect the torturers and those in the Bush administration that ordered it.

 

[B4U]

Not a master key? The FBI sure knows how things work.
So how about they crack the phone themselves?

Also, which side is creating more fear?

 

[sir1963nz]

Come on that’s ridiculous and you know it. Yes of course they need to prevent attacks, but they also need to acquire data to better help prevent them in the future. Quite often things you learn after the fact teach you things and you know it.
Whether that’s the case here or not I don’t know but kind of an empty statement you made.
[doublepost=1457670390][/doublepost]
Also maybe those in th tech sector have no idea about what’s needed by the politicians? As usual. Shocker.

Want to stop terrorist attacks, stop being arseholes.

Yep that simple.

Keep the CIA out of other countries, stop them supplying arms to dissidents, stop destabilising governments, stop interfering with their economies, their political systems etc. Keep you drones at home, stop firing missiles and killing innocent civilians, those innocents you kill are loved by their families just as much as the victims of the San Bernadino victims are.

The US makes up only 4% of the worlds population, no one has invited you to bully/police/inflict yourselves on the rest of the world.

THEN after you have stopped wetting you pants about terrorists, perhaps you can get back to the 14,000 americans who are murdered by other americans every year. Try making your own country safe before you interfere in countries and cultures you have no understanding of.

 

[coolfactor]

Apple should proceed with designing a new version of iOS that makes their request technically impossible.so they cannot comply even if they choose to.

That's exactly what iOS 8+ are... Apple can not decrypt them, even if they wanted to. The Feds are demanding that Apple invent a way to make that possible, to be used on a "case by case" basis. Apple is refusing to do that because it undermines the very principles of securing the device with encryption in the first place — so only the owner of the information (or holder of keys) can unlock it, and nobody else.

 

[H2SO4]

How do you think the FBI and the American justice system are funded? Money from thin air? Taxes. And who pay taxes? American people.

Oh right, I thought there was more to your statement than that. Of course I know the tax payer funds everything.
[doublepost=1457672737][/doublepost]

Torture is illegal in U.S. and International law, and it is a war crime. One of President Obama worst crimes was to protect the torturers and those in the Bush administration that ordered it.

They find a way to circumvent the laws. As does Apple. That was the point which I hope you saw.
[doublepost=1457673179][/doublepost]

Want to stop terrorist attacks, stop being arseholes.

Yep that simple.

Keep the CIA out of other countries, stop them supplying arms to dissidents, stop destabilising governments, stop interfering with their economies, their political systems etc. Keep you drones at home, stop firing missiles and killing innocent civilians, those innocents you kill are loved by their families just as much as the victims of the San Bernadino victims are.

The US makes up only 4% of the worlds population, no one has invited you to bully/police/inflict yourselves on the rest of the world.

THEN after you have stopped wetting you pants about terrorists, perhaps you can get back to the 14,000 americans who are murdered by other americans every year. Try making your own country safe before you interfere in countries and cultures you have no understanding of.

Ok, now no disrespect but I’m not American and very happy about that. Western governments have and will continue for quite some time to behave like that. This we agree on for sure.
Back then it was empire building and too much water has gone under the bridge for the Falklands to be given back for example. Now it goes under the guise of, we know what’s best for you and have to put a government in place, (our government even though it looks like yours), to make sure you run your country properly.
Straight lines like these are not natural boundaries!

Back on topic, I really don’t know which way I want this to go but I’d be happy with an open transparent and well reasoned decision which ever way it turns out.

 

[iamMacPerson]

Apple should proceed with designing a new version of iOS that makes their request technically impossible.so they cannot comply even if they choose to.

It sounds like they are. I hope they are able to figure out how to put a firmware password on these phones like Macs. If you set a firmware password on a newer Mac with soldered RAM and forget it, you're screwed. It will only boot to the one drive it was assigned to and require that password to boot from anything else - even recovery mode or the boot selector. Couple that with FileVault and your machine is practically secure from thieves and and government.

Basically what this would do is any time the phone is asked to boot into any other partition or mode (like DFU or recovery) it would require a firmware password. That is what we need to make any backdoor that Apple might have to create for this case unusable. And I hope Apple has the heart to release this update to all iPhones ASAP, even older ones that aren't getting software updates anymore.