U.S. Government Calls Apple's Opposition to iPhone Unlocking Order a 'Diversion,' Says Fears Are 'Overblown'

[CaTOAGU]

I'm really not trying to separate the issue. It may help of you read all of my responses.to this thread to get context of what I am trying to say.

The only reason I haven't mentioned it'd an issue of precedent is because I agree. I just see a lot of people having a completely upside down understanding of what's being demanded of apple and I was trying to clarify the many incorrect statements. I simply didn't feel I needed to start my statements with "yes I agree it sets a dangerous precedent..." Because I felt that was redundant.
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Apple could remove the security layers outlined in steps one and two and just unlock the phone themselves with software brute force entry of the pass code. Disable pass code. Done. They've essentially done the work of the fbi who plan to, apparently manually, enter a couple thousand possible pass code attempts without handing a device with altered software over.

But even with the altered software, there's no way to load it to another device without Apple's servers signing it anyway.

Perhaps my intentions aren't clear. I'm not trying to defend either entity nor am I trying to attack either entity. This entire chain of responses happened because I read someone saying that this backdoor would let random criminal hackers steal our bank accounts (paraphrasing), and that to me reads as a complete misunderstanding of what is supposed to happen here. This isn't even the first time I read such a statement. We have buzzwords like "backdoor" being thrown around and I saw.peoole getting confused. As such, I tried to shed some light, which ultimately..took us down this rabbit hole.

I think I understand where you're coming from, the thing is, I disagree. By considering the issues separately and trying to dispel, what is in your opinion a myth that what Apple is creating is a backdoor, is in my opinion the wrong approach. The combination of the software and the precedent make the software a backdoor. Now it will be difficult for others to use and you are correct that it will not be immediately uploaded to everyones phone, nor will it be easily exploited by hackers. But that is far from saying that it is not exploitable at all. In theory the software is not installable without Apples digital key but jailbroken phones have unsigned software installed on them.

What's important is that the system is only as secure as the sum of its parts, when you weaken one part you weaken the whole thing.

 

[lordofthereef]

I think I understand where you're coming from, the thing is, I disagree. By considering the issues separately and trying to dispel, what is in your opinion a myth that what Apple is creating is a backdoor, is in my opinion the wrong approach. The combination of the software and the precedent make the software a backdoor. Now it will be difficult for others to use and you are correct that it will not be immediately uploaded to everyones phone, nor will it be easily exploited by hackers. But that is far from saying that it is not exploitable at all. In theory the software is not installable without Apples digital key but jailbroken phones have unsigned software installed on them.

What's important is that the system is only as secure as the sum of its parts, when you weaken one part you weaken the whole thing.

I'm not even stuck on not calling a backdoor. People are literally thinking we are going to have altered versions of iOS installed in our devices that make it easier for the government to just decide which phones they want to be cracking open and sort through their contents. Or, of course, the Russian hacker now having a convenient way to your bank account argument. My intention was to disoel the notion that this is what is being asked of apple irregardless of the reason. The bottom line is from day one up until hours or.mahbe minutes ago, people are posting without even a basic understanding of what is being asked (demanded). I'm thinking of jot even responding with the term "backdoor" anymore to anyone any thread because people become obviously fixated in the term. I don't mean that in a bad way. We've gone back and forth discussing the semantics of the term, and that really wasn't my intention from point one. Simply put, Apple sint being asked what a lot of.peoole think they are being asked and, just like our back and forth, I believe some of the confusion stems.from the very term being used as an attempt to explain what's going on.

Pardon the typos. I need sleep.

 

[Piggie]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

This may well be the outcome, and Apple may well know this and internally prepping itself to do this.
However, I feel ANY intelligent person here, irrespective of their views on this subject, also understands that Tim and Apple are, without any question "Milking this" for as long as they can for company promotion / amazing free advertising reasons also.
It's giving them great publicity, so I don't blame them for making the very very most out of this.
"Standing up for the rights of it's customers"
What could possibly be better for them?

So, whilst I agree the whole privacy thing, I'm aware the "Show" that Apple is also running.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

source of 100% known good terror link.

We have what can be construed as a workplace violence scenario. The only aspect so far I know to give this a terrorism aspect is the shooters were followers of islam. Tenuous link really...not every minority who shoots someone is a gangsta. Not every white shooter is in a biker gang. And not every Italian criminal is cosa nostra related. They are just one off members of their race who decided to do horrible things to other people that day . No rhyme, no reason, no orders from the say head of a mob family.

Question for you...in any prior violence shooting when done by white people and non Islamic were these classified or looked at as possible terrorist in nature? No. I am sure one post office shooter or mass shooter in the past was Irish. Did we run out the dragnets looking for the IRA maybe looking for a new angle? Nope.

White guy flipped out of his mind (usually white males for this, won't dig deep to find the x percentage of non-whites or females...generalization used as well I am not writing a PhD here lol), goes to page 2 and 3 days later. Maybe used as a reference in gun legislation discussions there after.

Southern Cali drive by's and such....where is the 2000 hour investigation into it? There Is none. Crips shot bloods, civilians caught in x-fire. Tragic event that gets wrote off as gang violence Maybe the crips were closet black muslims...do we know? Nope. Gang violence the stamp on the case.

what this event is looking like more and more as the FBI and SB DA keeps on digging for new reasons. We don't even have say ISIS going see what we can do US...see what we can do. Nor any cell of any kind. These crews tend to claim damn near anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

If only to bust LE's balls with crank calls claiming the incident so it has to be investigated. We are the sect of the immortal cow level masters...we did this. (been playing a lot of diablo 3 recently...best I got atm). Sounds like a crackpot crank call...sure. One they have to follow up on though. We don't even have this. Not one anonymous tip even.

 

[lordofthereef]

source of 100% known good terror link.

We have what can be construed as a workplace violence scenario. The only aspect so far I know to give this a terrorism aspect is the shooters were followers of islam. Tenuous link really...not every minority who shoots someone is a gangsta. Not every white shooter is in a biker gang. And not every Italian criminal is cosa nostra related. They are just one off members of their race who decided to do horrible things to other people that day . No rhyme, no reason, no orders from the say head of a mob family.

Question for you...in any prior violence shooting when done by white people and non Islamic were these classified or looked at as possible terrorist in nature? No. I am sure one post office shooter or mass shooter in the past was Irish. Did we run out the dragnets looking for the IRA maybe looking for a new angle? Nope.

White guy flipped out of his mind (usually white males for this, won't dig deep to find the x percentage of non-whites or females...generalization used as well I am not writing a PhD here lol), goes to page 2 and 3 days later. Maybe used as a reference in gun legislation discussions there after.

Southern Cali drive by's and such....where is the 2000 hour investigation into it? There Is none. Crips shot bloods, civilians caught in x-fire. Tragic event that gets wrote off as gang violence Maybe the crips were closet black muslims...do we know? Nope. Gang violence the stamp on the case.

what this event is looking like more and more as the FBI and SB DA keeps on digging for new reasons. We don't even have say ISIS going see what we can do US...see what we can do. Nor any cell of any kind. These crews tend to claim damn near anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

If only to bust LE's balls with crank calls claiming the incident so it has to be investigated. We are the sect of the immortal cow level masters...we did this. (been playing a lot of diablo 3 recently...best I got atm). Sounds like a crackpot crank call...sure. One they have to follow up on though. We don't even have this. Not one anonymous tip even.

It's been a while since the cold war and technology was very different then, but it'd arguable that the same scenarios might have happened sgsinst "white guys" if all of that was happening today.

Apparently there were terrorist ties here. I don't know that this is a race issue, but maybe I have rose colored glass on.

Also, D3 has a cow level?

 

[JamesPDX]

Maybe... but here is where Apple gets into trouble. There is something called chain of evidence. That means if I get convicted of a crime, the police have to prove that the evidence they have against me was never tainted.

In this case, if I am on trial and my phone is in possession of the FBI and they can't unlock it and they go to Apple... That means that Apple and the FBI created software for the pure purpose of convicting me. I have the right to request (and the courts will allow) that Apple provide the chain of evidence that was used. That means they have to disclose the code and prove to the court (and technically jury) that the code they wrote solely for convicting me has no mistakes that would convict me of a crime I potentially might not have made. IF they need my phone, clearly there is not enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt that I'm guilty. Say their software accidentally overrode another backup of a different phone. Guess what? That software is now out. Because my lawyer can ask every part of the software, what it does, how it work, and LEGALLY can get a fully working copy to be examined by my defenders.

Something similar came up with the NSA and they refused to give away a certain piece of software that they wrote that helps them tracking users on the internet, even through VPNs. Their reason.. if the FBI gets it, it's guaranteed to end up in the courts and that means it ends up in the public.

So EVEN if apple secretly behind doors unlocks a phone in a trial, what they used to unlock the phone becomes public knowledge. Keep in mind the FBI director backtracked from it being one phone and admittedly said there was a large number of phones already lined up to be unlocked using apple's new government OS software. He now has a bit of a habit of lying. I'm surprised no one in congress asked, "didn't you just get hacked and lost 20,000 records of all your agents? And you want a specially written OS that can rewrite firmware and give you access to any phone?"

By the way, watch the entire congress hearing. It's about 3 hours long, but totally worth it. I was surprised that a lot of congressmen and women did some research and some of their questions weren't "stupid". Except for one arrogant angry moron who was trying to get a lawyer to write a law for him on the spot within 5 minutes. But the biggest picture that the FBI director painted was that the FBI would not take any responsibility if the software got out. When asked questions like if this would be leaked what would happen, or how they would secure it, or if it was presented to the courts how his agency would handle it; his answer to absolutely every single question was "that's for the judges to decide", "that's for the courts to decide" and "I'll let the judges worry about that".

Even the NSA is against potentially making things less secure. I think the FBI wanted this for a very long time, and the best thing happened to them. A terrorist shooting that they can use to leverage and extend their power. American's hear "terrorist" and immediately vote for any law and throw their rights at it out of fear. 9/11 was horrific, it really was, but man was the fear or people exploited and taken advantage of by the government.

Either way, I'm impressed and glad that congress wasn't biting FBI's bait... Hopefully we learned from the past. But we'll see.. This struggle of power is a really big deal and will be a cornerstone of things getting better, or us becoming China.
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1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Wrong. Three was actually to rewrite the entire touchscreen software and firmware to allow attachments to the coding so that instead of punching the numbers and combinations, they can just run a Apple's program (or whatever open API they provide) to guess all the combinations of the password.

Interesting. Was the chain of evidence broken when they screwed-up the phone by trying to reset it in the first place. Before they contacted Apple? Whoops.

 

[antonis]

And here's what this is all about, as Snowden points out.

And here's why FBI claims regarding this one specific iPhone is a lie.

This was never about the specific iPhone - FBI already has a solution for that. This is about establishing a status quo where such hacks will be common. And, obviously, not only against Apple's phones.

 

[ghostlyorb]

I still feel like Apple has the features to unlock any iPhone somewhere deep in their labs. This case should have been not make public where Apple has to directly make press releases in response to this. And even if they do make a back door into one phone, it'll never be on a public release for everyone in the world to get their hands onto... it would probably be for that phone in itself.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

Your answer is as antiquated as your avatar.

 

[Gymgenius]

So serious question if Apple is forced to do this: What happens when their own employees don't want to be on the feature team for this? Apple is going to have a hard time finding iOS engineers that are going to willingly corrode the security of the platform.

This could be there one saving grace.

Come to some ultra secret deal with the whole of the IOS team who could 'resign' en masse (with a great compensation package)...
Apple then say 'aw shucks, we've lost all our great coders. Sorry FBI, we can't help you, much as we'd love to'.
...then once the fuss has blown over, the coders take their jobs back and carry on.

until next time, following another lengthy legal process.

Rinse, repeat.

 

[Eraserhead]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

Do you want ISIS to have all your data? Do you want the Chinese to have all data on every supporter of the Dali lama? Do you want Iran to have all data on every homosexual?

 

[Ed217]

1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Wrong. Three was actually to rewrite the entire touchscreen software and firmware to allow attachments to the coding so that instead of punching the numbers and combinations, they can just run a Apple's program (or whatever open API they provide) to guess all the combinations of the password.

That's what I mean by 3. The remotely part is the key. They mention means like Bluetooth and others. They want it electronic not manual touch.

"for testing electronically via the physical device port, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or other protocol.."

 

[wordsworth]

Am I right in thinking that this all began because the FBI failed to access the iPhone properly, in a way that would have been perfectly feasible had the FBI used someone who knew what they were doing? Instead (am I right?) somebody botched it and the simpler opportunity to secure the required data was lost.

Excuse the cynicism here but surely that's generally the government way– to botch things. To fail to live up to its responsibilities to its citizens.

So now that, as a consequence, the FBI has initiated a profound debate about issues of security, privacy and how much trust we dare place in, er, government, perhaps one lesson to be drawn is that a more rigorous personnel policy might usefully be implemented within such organisations entrusted with our security and liberty?

Technology is all very well but people still have to think clearly, logically and, often, imaginatively, too. A closed mind is potentially a dangerous mind; it's simply a question of degree.

 

[AFEPPL]

Do you want ISIS to have all your data? Do you want the Chinese to have all data on every supporter of the Dali lama? Do you want Iran to have all data on every homosexual?

I have nothing to hide and don't need anyone else's data.
somewhat a dramatic reply, the ask is for the government to have access to data on a terrorist phone..

source of 100% known good terror link.

Question for you...in any prior violence shooting when done by white people and non Islamic were these classified or looked at as possible terrorist in nature? No. I am sure one post office shooter or mass shooter in the past was Irish. Did we run out the dragnets looking for the IRA maybe looking for a new angle? Nope.

White guy flipped out of his mind (usually white males for this, won't dig deep to find the x percentage of non-whites or females...generalization used as well I am not writing a PhD here lol), goes to page 2 and 3 days later. Maybe used as a reference in gun legislation discussions there after.

I don't care what group or colour he's with and i personally made no assertions either way what if any group he was linked or not linked to. Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is defined as the use of violence, or threatened use of violence, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim. In recent times. And yes, the white people of the IRA were/are terrorist and yes, they should be found and dealt with to the fullest extend of the law.

 

[Eraserhead]

I have nothing to hide and don't need anyone else's data.
somewhat a dramatic reply, the ask is for the government to have access to data on a terrorist phone..

According to China the Dali Lama is a terrorist. And being a homosexual is a death penalty offence in Iran. Both seem more than worthy of tracking.

By the way if you have nothing to hide do you shut the curtains before having sex?

 

[jonnysods]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

It seems simple, but it's the precedent set by the government that is the problem. Someday they could decide that you are a terrorist/dissident/threat to society and force Apple or any company to access all your data and whereabouts.

There are serious implications to you personally and all of us if this goes through.

 

[Eraserhead]

It seems simple, but it's the precedent set by the government that is the problem. Someday they could decide that you are a terrorist/dissident/threat to society and force Apple or any company to access all your data and whereabouts.

There are serious implications to you personally and all of us if this goes through.

Which is why I've bought up homosexuals and Dali Lama supporters who would immediately be directly affected by this.

 

[soupcan]

DOJ: We tried to be nice. We could just force Apple to turn over the iOS source code and code signing keys.
From here: https://twitter.com/csoghoian/status/708078386430812164

This is straight from that letter.
This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Piggie]

I still feel like Apple has the features to unlock any iPhone somewhere deep in their labs. This case should have been not make public where Apple has to directly make press releases in response to this. And even if they do make a back door into one phone, it'll never be on a public release for everyone in the world to get their hands onto... it would probably be for that phone in itself.

But Apple are not stupid.
They know they have, and are continuing to generate very positive, almost free advertising for their products worldwide.
Making a "STAND AGAINST THE SYSTEM" is giving them a white halo from the standpoint of most consumers and this will generate a rise in the purchase of Apple equipment be those who place their privacy above all else.

Apple are not stupid, they know exactly what they are doing here. Even if their plan secretly has been to comply with the request all along, taking this stance is excellent for sales.
[doublepost=1457701718][/doublepost]

It seems simple, but it's the precedent set by the government that is the problem. Someday they could decide that you are a terrorist/dissident/threat to society and force Apple or any company to access all your data and whereabouts.

There are serious implications to you personally and all of us if this goes through.

I don't get your logic.
They could decide you are a terrorist you say, AND then have access to all your private data.

Then they could see this was an error once your data had been shown to be innocent, the worst thing they may find is a photo of your penis and a bill to the local prostitute club.

 

[Eraserhead]

But Apple are not stupid.
They know they have, and are continuing to generate very positive, almost free advertising for their products worldwide.
Making a "STAND AGAINST THE SYSTEM" is giving them a white halo from the standpoint of most consumers and this will generate a rise in the purchase of Apple equipment be those who place their privacy above all else.

Apple are not stupid, they know exactly what they are doing here. Even if their plan secretly has been to comply with the request all along, taking this stance is excellent for sales.
[doublepost=1457701718][/doublepost]

I don't get your logic.
They could decide you are a terrorist you say, AND then have access to all your private data.

Then they could see this was an error once your data had been shown to be innocent, the worst thing they may find is a photo of your penis and a bill to the local prostitute club.

Your reputation would be destroyed in the process though.

 

[macfacts]

... Police have no ability to limit/throttle the power they are given. They will use it on every single phone they get in their possession....

That's why they need a court order from a judge before they get to do it. And the judge is going to want to see probable evidence first.

Once this precedent is set, Apple has no argument to challenge any similar court orders.

I hope you know, saying it sets a precedent isn't a good argument.

 

[Piggie]

Your reputation would be destroyed in the process though.

I don't agree.
In what way.
No one other than Tim and a couple of his close colleagues would know what their plans are.
Apple can do exactly what they are doing, and then be legally forced to comply, in which case they will do so and issue public statements explaining why and that even though they have been forced to comply it will not affect security in general.
this will leave them squeaky clean and STILL look like the only company doing the most for it's customers privacy unless they have legally no option.

 

[jc1350]

About 20 years later sysadmins are dealing with SSL's DROWN vulnerability that is a direct unintended consequence of a government mandate ("export grade" encryption). I'll error on Apple's side so that in a few years we're not dealing with more problems from unintended consequences from this government mandate.

 

[Eraserhead]

I don't agree.
In what way.
No one other than Tim and a couple of his close colleagues would know what their plans are.
Apple can do exactly what they are doing, and then be legally forced to comply, in which case they will do so and issue public statements explaining why and that even though they have been forced to comply it will not affect security in general.
this will leave them squeaky clean and STILL look like the only company doing the most for it's customers privacy unless they have legally no option.

Law enforcement would know.

Besides Apple won't issue statements. There will be too many requests.

 

[eac25]

Yeah, no.
The code of all phones running a particular version of IOS is the same. No phone is unique except they have a different UUID and different secure enclave ID.Apart from that they are all the same and the same code works on all of them, none of them have special code to allow for those differences.

ANY software written will ultimately work on any phone. If the FBI get the phone they will be looking for the code the uniquely identifies the device and bypass it. This is after all the same technique software pirates use to bypass the serial number activation in software.

Your government is lying to you. If the FBI wins, the US becomes no more trustworthy than China. ALL US technology will have to be bought assuming that there is now a CIA/NSA backdoor installed.

I am holding off upgrading any of my gear at home and at work, if the FBI wins, its a non US distort of Linux running on non US hardware. Automatic updates will be blocked on all US hardware. And where is comes to non critical stuff, well we will probably buy Chinese with the assumed risk being the same as for US equipment, the cost being cheaper for Chinese.

An FBI win will be the biggest win for India, China, Japan, the EU, Korea that could ever happen, especially if they are willing to open up their code and have audited hardware so exclude spyware. The US is going to loose a massive amount of its technological advantages as it will have to show and tell just to remain in the game.

I agree with most of your points, but just because they write their OS they way they do now for all phones doesn't preclude them from writing a device-specific version.