U.S. Government Calls Apple's Opposition to iPhone Unlocking Order a 'Diversion,' Says Fears Are 'Overblown'

[macfacts]

Maybe... but here is where Apple gets into trouble. There is something called chain of evidence. That means if I get convicted of a crime, the police have to prove that the evidence they have against me was never tainted.

In this case, if I am on trial and my phone is in possession of the FBI and they can't unlock it and they go to Apple... That means that Apple and the FBI created software for the pure purpose of convicting me. I have the right to request (and the courts will allow) that Apple provide the chain of evidence that was used. That means they have to disclose the code and prove to the court (and technically jury) that the code they wrote solely for convicting me has no mistakes that would convict me of a crime I potentially might not have made. IF they need my phone, clearly there is not enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt that I'm guilty. Say their software accidentally overrode another backup of a different phone. Guess what? That software is now out. Because my lawyer can ask every part of the software, what it does, how it work, and LEGALLY can get a fully working copy to be examined by my defenders.
...

When your lawyer asks that question, the response will include that one of the steps is that the GovtOS is digitally signed with Apple's signing key. Doesn't matter if full details are given when one of the steps are to sign the software with a key only Apple has. Your lawyer doesn't get that signing key, the FBI doesn't get the signing key.

Iphones are made to only allow software that is digitally signed by Apple. Only way around that is a hardware mod or jailbreak.

To put someone in jail, there has to be evidence that supports it beyond a reasonable doubt. To get a search warrant or court order, there just needs to be evidence that supports probable cause.

I hope Apple's lawyers have a better argument than just saying it's going to set a precedent.

 

[drewsof07]

It'd be like the police bullying a local locksmith, demanding he make a master key for them that unlocks every house and business in the city. They make a big deal out of it, deride the guy on TV, and generally make asses of themselves. Then one day they lose the keys to an important crime scene...

I hear the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept is really good at finding lost keys

 

[teslo]

further unconstitutional posturing born directly of the unconstitutional Patriot Act. that thing needs to go - immediately. the foreseen and much decried 'slippery slope' it was supposedly 'never going to create' has reached an accelerated state.

 

[DJ Dilbert]

... is false and "corrosive of the very institutions that are best able to safeguard our liberty and our rights.

Right, coming from an organization that's invoking a 230 year old Act to force a company (in a supposed free country) into producing something that damages their own product and violates their morals all against their will.

Sure, I can totally see how Apple is the bad guy here. #sarcasm
[doublepost=1457707148][/doublepost]

I thought this is America? Do they really say that Apple is not free to make its products secure?

You're totally right. Also they aren't making the product so secure to prevent lawful search and seizure from the government. They are doing it to prevent illegal search and seizure from hackers/hacker groups, whom let's face it are better at hacking than the government is. They (hackers) are the real threat to the individual. That's who Apple is protecting with their software.

Just because a "bad guy" had the iPhone too doesn't mean that Apple is trying to protect the data of a terrorist. That's like saying that Ford is openly promoting vehicular manslaughter and high-speed chases by selling a decent car that can handle well at high speeds. All because OJ Simpson bought one.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Also they aren't making the product so secure to prevent lawful search and seizure from the government.

wait. Lawful? No court has ever said that a company which is not on trial is forced to do work for the government which could potentially damage the company itself. This is a first.

 

[jweinraub]

Okay, I don't get one thing. Does the FBI know that the iPhone has the self-destruct function enabled? Is that even on by default? I hope not since my coworkers son was playing with my phone trying to unlock it and had my phone locked out for 15 minutes which was pretty annoying. It being jailbroken I promptly removed the timer in case it happens again, but really glad I did NOT have the erase function enabled.

I understand they want to automate password guesses electronically so it can try all combinations without the time lock out, but the self-destruct function? Does anyone really use that? Because ten attempts is pretty low especially have young kids in the house! I understand it is my phone I should watch what they do, but kids will be kids anyway.

 

[CaTOAGU]

DOJ: We tried to be nice. We could just force Apple to turn over the iOS source code and code signing keys.
From here: https://twitter.com/csoghoian/status/708078386430812164

This is straight from that letter.
This is getting ridiculous.

Completely ridiculous, especially when you consider that they don't need, either Apples help or Apples source code to crack the device. As Edward Snowden pointed out, they just need to back up the effaceable storage on the device try the unlock code 10 times, if it erases, restore the effaceable storage, if it doesn't carry on guessing. This is because the device doesn't actually erase all the data after 10 failed attempts it just deletes the key held in effaceable storage. If they have a back up of that storage they can try as many times as they like. There are surely other avenues they could try, such as copying all the data from the phone and throwing different keys at it until it looks like they have something that makes sense. But no, the FBI would much rather someone else do the work for them.

 

[MacLawyer]

"People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.”

 

[hiddenmarkov]

Also, D3 has a cow level?

Nah its more like a my little pony kind of thing iirc. Still getting the materials to see it personally. cartoony and colory board I hear (trying to avoid youtube videos to keep it a surprise for me). But they reference it sometimes in load screens. And you get wirt and other references.

Rest I wasn't going for race per se. Its more pigeon holing that seems to be going on. Middle eastern, muslim ties....lets jump to conclusion of conspiracy plots. Possible tie I see is just they were crazy people that happened to be what they are. Not even going to blame islam if the case...we get our christian whack jobs out their too. People flip people flip. Screaming allah or God commands this...just a whack job to me really.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

apple do the right thing and just get on with it and give the data to the government.
this is a known terrorist/criminal.

Apple HAS given all the unencrypted data it found on iCloud. This IS NOT about Apple refusing to hand over data in its possession to law enforcement; it has complied here.

The issue at hand is whether the government can force a private concern or citizen to create something IT DOES NOT possess. Apple does not have the encryption key to the phone or any phone with iOS8 or newer.

In a perfect world, sure Apple could go in a secret lab, make a key out of pure altruism, hand over the data to the police and toss the key, and the coder would never leak the information or get it forced out of him; no unauthorized 3rd party would get hold of the key; no rogue agent would use the key nefariously or sell it for profit. End of story.

But if we lived in that Shangri-la there wouldn't be terrorists or the need for laws and certainly not a Constitution to protect the citizens from the prospect of an over-reaching government. As long as there has been a U.S. Constitution citizens have been grappling with the state's duty to protect vs a citizen's natural rights. The fight goes on or we all just become slaves of the state w/ no freedom at all.

 

[geta]

"No company is above the law." President Obama

Except the ones running it...

This is actually starting to become scary. Sad that a country like the US wants this sort of power.

Your government wants to control all of you, not just "terrorists" - get used to it!
The only thing they trying to do now is making it legal... the thing is, it will affected everyone around the world, not only US citizens, unfortunately it wont be so hard when most of the ppl are sheep heads...

So, can we sue Apple if they'll veiled our privacy by creating ‘back door’ for them?

 

[lordofthereef]

Okay, I don't get one thing. Does the FBI know that the iPhone has the self-destruct function enabled? Is that even on by default?

It isnot on by default thought I have no idea whether the FBI knows if it is on or not in this case. My son haserased my wife's phone before in this way lol.

 

[derek4484]

I particularly hate the line in the FBI response "well, even if this does set a precedent...Apple is so big it can handle hundreds of these requests each year..."

So, they're basically admitting that this is purely a legal maneuver to set a legal precedent so the DoJ/FBI/DHS can open the floodgates and force Apple to do this at their beck and call in the future. LIARS.

 

[You are the One]

It's the federal agencies and the federal government that are the real terrorists. They create and sponsor patsy terrorism to take away liberty and freedom from ordinary people.

 

[unplugme71]

It's a complicated topic for sure.

The FBI are correct on two accounts; Apple are turning the issue into hyperbole (with regards to the technical consequences) in order to protect their brand, and that it is possible to create this software for just one device with no questions asked. One time usage, then it literally self-destructs.

The other side of the argument is the precedent, and that's something that I feel Apple should be doing more to protect. If they did, the ball would be in the FBI's court and they would have to explain their position in future cases such as this. My guess is that they would try and wriggle out of it...

Who knows what will happen?

The thing is, all these customers bought an iPhone because Apple promises to protect privacy, provide a good user experience, and form a trust with the user. Apple didn't produce anything illegal or for illegal reasons.

Now the government wants Apple to break this trust. Sure it may be a "one-time" thing for now, but it sets a precedent it can be done, and when will it stop? Sure it won't be only the US, every country will want this. Are they going to pay Apple for the time and effort? No.

What Apple SHOULD do is, provide this software to every FBI and US government official, include all politicians who support this "new OS" and has an iPhone for 60 days.

However, when all these users start getting their phones breached and politicians having their photos of mistresses posted on the web, government secrets exposed, etc... watch how fast they'll understand the actions they once asked for.

Sometimes you have to give a little poison to heal everyone else.

 

[lexvo]

This is actually starting to become scary. Sad that a country like the US wants this sort of power.

100% agree.

 

[BeefCake 15]

It is time for all of us to wake up.... we are slaves in the US... enslaved by the FEDs with it's Dollar.... lied to by the Government, Nasa is fake, 911 was a setup to strip us of our freedoms and the wars we fight are unjust, but we don't see that because our media is controlled... we are in a mind control situation....we are living in a bubble created by our deceivers.

Now our deceivers want full access into our iPhones.

What did NASA do to you? or do you mean NSA?

 

[pooleman]

The thing is, all these customers bought an iPhone because Apple promises to protect privacy, provide a good user experience, and form a trust with the user. Apple didn't produce anything illegal or for illegal reasons.

Now the government wants Apple to break this trust. Sure it may be a "one-time" thing for now, but it sets a precedent it can be done, and when will it stop? Sure it won't be only the US, every country will want this. Are they going to pay Apple for the time and effort? No.

What Apple SHOULD do is, provide this software to every FBI and US government official, include all politicians who support this "new OS" and has an iPhone for 60 days.

However, when all these users start getting their phones breached and politicians having their photos of mistresses posted on the web, government secrets exposed, etc... watch how fast they'll understand the actions they once asked for.

Sometimes you have to give a little poison to heal everyone else.

Does the phone company violate your trust when they receive a subpoena to give the government your phone records?
Does the bank violate your trust when they receive a subpoena to give the government your bank records?
Does your landlord violate your privacy when he receives a search warrant to search your apartment and he opens the door for the cops/feds/whatever?
The feds would still need to obtain a search warrant to use this "key" to get into your phone. So I don't see what the issue is.

 

[gnasher729]

Okay, I don't get one thing. Does the FBI know that the iPhone has the self-destruct function enabled? Is that even on by default? I hope not since my coworkers son was playing with my phone trying to unlock it and had my phone locked out for 15 minutes which was pretty annoying. It being jailbroken I promptly removed the timer in case it happens again, but really glad I did NOT have the erase function enabled.

That's why the last two locks are for an hour each, so that some stupid kid or prankster can't erase your phone. It gave your co-worker a chance to test his parenting skills.
[doublepost=1457712847][/doublepost]

Wrong! A search warrant gives the police the ability to search. They have a search warrant for the phone. That means they can search or hack the phone in any way they want. They do NOT have the legal right to force a company to rewrite software, virtually breaking and hacking their own system and creating a special GovtOS.

Go back and read my post. The good judge on Australian TV claimed that it would be _illegal_ for Apple to hack into this phone, and that the FBI couldn't force Apple to do something illegal. And that's wrong. It's not illegal for Apple to hack into this phone, because the owner allows it.

Right conclusion, wrong reasoning. Which you can't allow in a discussion like this; this judge built his own straw man, with all the good intentions in the world.

 

[dk001]

Every computer security professional: It most assuredly will
FBI: You guys don't know what you are talking about

FBI - we want this as we have many smartphones to look into.
DOJ - this is about one, only one smartphone. By the way, we have another twelve in queue.
LEO - hope this comes out on the FBI's side, we have thousands in queue.
Obama - ........ crickets..............
Apple - Wow. Really? Oh hell no. Seriously, no way.
Other Nation States - Hmmmm..... maybe yes we want, maybe no..... popcorn!
Criminal Enterprises - ..... drool ......
Hackers - come to papa!!!!

Please feel free to add to this "discussion"

 

[gnasher729]

If it was so easy as purported by the OP, they should do it today and could have done it yesterday. Tim has been harping on about the security of iOS and OSX for years.

Doing it yesterday wouldn't have helped, because we are talking about an iPhone 5c that is several years old. Actually, Apple fixed that problem long before yesterday, just not at the time when the 5C was released. And the attack that the FBI wants will only work with the 5C, not with the 5S, 6, or anything newer.
[doublepost=1457713241][/doublepost]

But even with the altered software, there's no way to load it to another device without Apple's servers signing it anyway.

Once that software is signed by Apple, you can load it onto _any_ Apple device. The devices only check if the new software is signed by Apple. Since the software intended for one phone is signed by Apple, it will work on all devices. And there is no protection against the FBI extracting it from that phone (like your locksmith didn't put any protection into your locks that prevent a burglar from _locking_ your doors; your locks are designed to prevent unlocking, not to prevent locking. iOS security is designed to keep bad updates away from the phone, not to keep good (signed) updates _on_ the phone).

 

[Ed217]

Does the phone company violate your trust when they receive a subpoena to give the government your phone records?
Does the bank violate your trust when they receive a subpoena to give the government your bank records?
Does your landlord violate your privacy when he receives a search warrant to search your apartment and he opens the door for the cops/feds/whatever?
The feds would still need to obtain a search warrant to use this "key" to get into your phone. So I don't see what the issue is.

The issue is, in each of those cases, the third party in question has records on hand or a key on a hanger to offer the gov the data the warrant requests. They just run a report and pass it to the gov representative. The warrant basically says show me the data you already have.

The Apple case is different in that they have no records on hand and no keys. They are asking to produce a key that doesn't exist and add risk to all other phone owners.

 

[gnasher729]

I still feel like Apple has the features to unlock any iPhone somewhere deep in their labs. This case should have been not make public where Apple has to directly make press releases in response to this. And even if they do make a back door into one phone, it'll never be on a public release for everyone in the world to get their hands onto... it would probably be for that phone in itself.

Why would Apple have this? How would it benefit Apple? For example, with iMessage the whole idea of end-to-end encryption is that if anyone comes with a search warrant, then Apple can say "sorry, no idea what messages were sent, and impossible for us to find out". That saves Apple _money_. That's the whole point. If Apple can't do it, they are in the clear.

 

[gixxerfool]

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure this actually even was an act of terrorism. I think it was a mass killing, certainly, by a couple of nut jobs that were inspired by terrorist organizations and acts. But I'm not so sure that actually makes it a terrorist act.

Fine line, I know - and just a thought - but one that potentially weakens the FBI's case in a way (i.e., that it's actually *not* a public safety issue any more since the killers are dead). Thoughts???

I agree with this in a way. I do not think it was organized terrorism. Terroristic in nature, yes, but not part of a bigger picture.

 

[dk001]

This is key. The FBI assertions are (1) this is only about this one phone, (2) Apple will destroy the software after this one use, (3) it is only asking for 10 engineers' time for 3 weeks (they chose to quote the low-end estimate of 6 engineers for 2 weeks, but even that is prior to QA and FBI training as Apple detailed it). They then "prove" that the AWA law applies to this case by pointing to previous cases which were "almost" as relevant and "not much" lower in cost to comply with. Which is exactly Apple's point: if Apple does this then the "precedent" bar changes one more rung, and the FBI and various DAs already have tens of thousands of iPhones lined up for this process afterwards. The cost of setting this precedent is not just 30 engineer-weeks, but at least three hundred thousand engineer-weeks, which is to say, 6,000 engineer-years. This is a multi-million-dollar ask, and that is the low-end estimate just of the existing phones the FBI and other federal authorities have lined up.

So, of course, Apple can't devote a team of ten engineers for the next 600 years just to keep recreating the same hack for each individual phone then immediately securely destroy the hack as the FBI asserts is easy to do (because the FBI is full of idiots, apparently). Instead, they would need to create this software once with proper engineering procedures, then keep it on hand for the next ten thousand phones. Which is exactly what Apple says is completely untenable from a software perspective: they need to keep s global "free entry" key under wraps at the Apple campus. This is not a business Apple is in and not one they seek to be in. It is a completely unreasonable request for them to be conscripted to be in this business from now through the end of time by the FBI.

Now take this same process and expand it to Android. Then try to expand it to any other flavor of Android (I say try as some are non-US). Now do the same to Microsoft for Windows.