Unauthorized App Store Cydia Sues Apple for Anticompetitive Behavior

[britboyj]

If this line of argument were true, then Sony has a monopoly over PS4 games and Microsoft on Xbox Live games 🤷‍♂️ Good luck

It's interesting you bring this up, but Microsoft and Sony hardware allows for any registered developer to distribute however they see fit. They don't HAVE to use the internal XBL or PSN storefronts if they don't want to — They can go purely disc-install based if they want to, and there are plenty of third-party publishers in the console (and PC) ecosystems.

What makes this interesting is that Apple has said its App Store submission hurdles cannot be used against game streaming apps, so they might cause issues or install viruses or whatever excuse they have. That particular argument falls apart when you look at the hurdles a game has to go through to be placed on Microsoft's Cloud service, or even Google Stadia — Their checks make the App Store look like a joke.

 

[rp100]

And if Ford used the same tactics that Apple does, you would have to buy a GM car. Now that sounds like a very consumer friendly market.

It would be like Ford saying if you want to buy an air filter (any brand), you still have to buy it through Ford.

Auto manufacturers have been steadily patenting the looks of their body panels in an attempt to stop the aftermarket collision industry. Plenty of China/Taiwan factories will stamp or mold the parts, but you will be served a lawsuit should you attempt to sell them without securing the IP licenses.

Should Ford be allowed to patent the appearance of a bumper cover? What if I told you that Ford charged $650 for the bumper cover but an aftermarket replica was $150? (These are strictly cosmetic plastic - impact bars sit behind it)

 

[9927036]

It would be like Ford saying if you want to buy an air filter (any brand), you still have to buy it through Ford.

Auto manufacturers have been steadily patenting the looks of their body panels in an attempt to stop the aftermarket collision industry. Plenty of China/Taiwan factories will stamp or mold the parts, but you will be served a lawsuit should you attempt to sell them without securing the IP licenses.

Should Ford be allowed to patent the appearance of a bumper cover? What if I told you that Ford charged $650 for the bumper cover but an aftermarket replica was $150? (These are strictly cosmetic plastic - impact bars sit behind it)

I agree the practices of Ford and other auto makers should be looked at from an antitrust perspective. Another issue is that they are locking down the diagnostics so that independent mechanics cannot service their vehicles. This is going to be a big issue and the regulators I hope step in to stop this anti-competitive behavior.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

And we did not sign up to buy a "Managed" device. I hope these arguments resonate with the State AGs.

Actually, you did.
You purchased the phone, either directly through Apple, so you would’ve had to agree to their terms of service, or by signing a contract to a carrier.
Then, you opened the box of the iPhone, which literally has paper inside of it explaining apples terms of service.
Then, while setting up the iPhone, you presumably tapped agree to those terms of service, tapped agree again, then let your phone be registered with Apple.
That is three times that you have told Apple that it’s OK for them to control the software on your phone.

 

[vipergts2207]

Actually, you did.
You purchased the phone, either directly through Apple, so you would’ve had to agree to their terms of service, or by signing a contract to a carrier.
Then, you opened the box of the iPhone, which literally has paper inside of it explaining apples terms of service.
Then, while setting up the iPhone, you presumably tapped agree to those terms of service, tapped agree again, then let your phone be registered with Apple.
That is three times that you have told Apple that it’s OK for them to control the software on your phone.

Just because you agreed to the terms doesn't make them enforceable or legal. If the TOS or EULA said you must give us your first born, no judge would enforce that. Similarly, judges and/or regulators may rule that parts of Apple's terms are also null and void.

 

[qCzar]

I'm going to put on my tin-foil hat here... Their getting some funds from Epic Games. This is way too similar to not be a coincidence. Epic likely realized how badly the botched their attempt at this suit and are now puppeteering this one. They've had enough time to initiate talks with potential plaintiffs.

I realize this is super conspiracy stuff, but it just seems odd to me. Cydia has been out of the mainstream eye for years. I'm not denying they still exist but they are not the familiar name they used to be back in the heyday, so what exactly is the underlying motive here? Hence why I think Epic is in talks with them cause it may be their best shot at allowing their own app launcher.

Okay, taking my tin foil hat off now.

 

[forgotmyhandle]

Here we go again. For those who think Apple should open up their platforms to their apps, the web is open: you can post any apps and app stores you want, Apple does not control it, and you don't have to pay anything to Apple.

 

[Art Mark]

Morally speaking it’s Apple ecosystem. Morally speaking let’s see how you decide what’s an open system that a company controls and owns and what companies are forced to do whatever done failed developer demands. Would you like Walmart to be forced to carry any product that demands to be carried by Wallmart?

 

[vipergts2207]

Morally speaking it’s Apple ecosystem. Morally speaking let’s see how you decide what’s an open system that a company controls and owns and what companies are forced to do whatever done failed developer demands. Would you like Walmart to be forced to carry any product that demands to be carried by Wallmart?

That argument might be legitimate if Walmart was one half of a retail duopoly. They're not though because there are hundreds of other stores where you could sell your products. Walmart also has finite shelf space. A third-party app store would be hosting their own wares.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You're right. And every developer should first develop their own hardware and OS before they can release an app. OH but wait. They don't have to on a Mac or PC. But they have to on an iPhone. Please explain.

Um, no. App developers that desire to control 100% the environment that their games run in (Like Nintendo and Sony) should develop their own hardware and OS. Those that would rather piggyback on other’s prior work (again, work done by Nintendo and Sony) can simply release their app on the platform of their choice. However, once the decision has been made to NOT develop your own hardware and OS, you can expect that the platform owners will require any app developer to follow any arbitrary rules those platforms consider necessary. There’s no law stating that any app is LEGALLY REQUIRED to appear on any platform, Sony, Apple, Nintendo, Microsoft, etc.

If any of these companies say “No”, well, then you’re out of luck. No matter how amazing your game or app is, it’s not going to legally appear on any of the platforms. And, there’s no legal structures that can FORCE Nintendo to carry any game they don’t want to. Nintendo could produce a system so popular that the Xbox and the Playstation is not even worth selling anymore, and they would STILL not be required to carry games they’d prefer not to.

 

[mubert]

Just because you agreed to the terms doesn't make them enforceable or legal. If the TOS or EULA said you must give us your first born, no judge would enforce that. Similarly, judges and/or regulators may rule that parts of Apple's terms are also null and void.

What is this? An intelligent comment from someone who actually understands law? What ever are you doing here?

 

[cupcakes2000]

Another thread of ridiculousness then I see.

 

[9927036]

Actually, you did.
You purchased the phone, either directly through Apple, so you would’ve had to agree to their terms of service, or by signing a contract to a carrier.
Then, you opened the box of the iPhone, which literally has paper inside of it explaining apples terms of service.
Then, while setting up the iPhone, you presumably tapped agree to those terms of service, tapped agree again, then let your phone be registered with Apple.
That is three times that you have told Apple that it’s OK for them to control the software on your phone.

Please quote the specific sentences where I agreed to not be able to get apps from elsewhere than the App Store. You should also know that states and the Federal courts usually hold such terms of service as unenforceable.

 

[9927036]

Um, no. App developers that desire to control 100% the environment that their games run in (Like Nintendo and Sony) should develop their own hardware and OS. Those that would rather piggyback on other’s prior work (again, work done by Nintendo and Sony) can simply release their app on the platform of their choice. However, once the decision has been made to NOT develop your own hardware and OS, you can expect that the platform owners will require any app developer to follow any arbitrary rules those platforms consider necessary. There’s no law stating that any app is LEGALLY REQUIRED to appear on any platform, Sony, Apple, Nintendo, Microsoft, etc.

If any of these companies say “No”, well, then you’re out of luck. No matter how amazing your game or app is, it’s not going to legally appear on any of the platforms. And, there’s no legal structures that can FORCE Nintendo to carry any game they don’t want to. Nintendo could produce a system so popular that the Xbox and the Playstation is not even worth selling anymore, and they would STILL not be required to carry games they’d prefer not to.

Um no. Washington, DC regulators can indeed ensure that "arbitrary rules" are not legal. Likewise the legal structure does exist. Just watch the FB, Google and Apple anti-trust enforcements.

 

[GizmoDVD]

if piracy, malware, etc was really a problem Apple wanted to prevent and thus wanted to "oversee" that whole process, why is it that you can download all sorts of apps outside the app store on your Mac?

Because that existed before the iPhone?

 

[GizmoDVD]

Especially when you have 100% market share for iOS devices.

And Sony has 100% marketshare for PS5.
And MS for Xbox.

Whats your point?

 

[9927036]

Because that existed before the iPhone?

That's not a good reason. In that case Apple should immediately lock down macOS and Macs to protect us from piracy and malware.

 

[GizmoDVD]

It's interesting you bring this up, but Microsoft and Sony hardware allows for any registered developer to distribute however they see fit. They don't HAVE to use the internal XBL or PSN storefronts if they don't want to — They can go purely disc-install based if they want to, and there are plenty of third-party publishers in the console (and PC) ecosystems.

What makes this interesting is that Apple has said its App Store submission hurdles cannot be used against game streaming apps, so they might cause issues or install viruses or whatever excuse they have. That particular argument falls apart when you look at the hurdles a game has to go through to be placed on Microsoft's Cloud service, or even Google Stadia — Their checks make the App Store look like a joke.

They need to get "approval" to release said games/software from MS/SONY/Nintendo, they can't just upload it into their marketplace.

 

[IG88]

I can agree with you, but also iPhones have arguably more sensitive data on them. Apple wallet, health data, etc etc. I can see why it’s more strict.

My MBA has Apple Wallet, and nearly all of the same data on it that my iPhone does. Granted, my MBA doesn't travel around with me like the phone does.

The security aspect of the argument IMO doesn't hold water, because companies like Facebook have snuck in approved apps that datamine like crazy. Sure they might get caught by Apple at some point, but just the fact that they can sneak stuff by Apple at all, negates the so called security aspect.

 

[Apple_Robert]

In the same way that auto manufacturers don't have the right tell you what roads you can drive on, Apple doesn't have the right to tell you what apps you can install. They do, but they shouldn't.

They have a right to set policy in their own App Store.

 

[chinito77]

It’s my phone. What do you not understand?

It's not "your phone". Sure you can sell it or throw it away but you cannot modify the hardware or software. All those apps you bought? If a server goes down, you no longer have access to them. Like all consumer goods, you are paying for the privilege of using the item.

 

[deevey]

It's YOUR device. This would be like Ford telling you what you can and cannot put in, or on, your car. Sure, it's Ford's "platform" but......

Whats the problem, you can just jailbreak your phone currently just like you can swap an engine in a Ford.

But for the love of god, don't expect Ford to endorse it. And you certainly wouldn't sue them for making it difficult would you ?

 

[vipergts2207]

They need to get "approval" to release said games/software from MS/SONY/Nintendo, they can't just upload it into their marketplace.

Unlike Apple they aren't part of a duopoly and it's much harder to impact the marketplace in an unfair manner the way Apple can with decisions on iOS. That's a key part of anti-trust laws. With smartphone OS's there are only two choices, iOS and Android. In the gaming marketplace there are Sony Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo, Windows, and macOS at a minimum. None of those entities has broad control over a huge chunk of the market. As of May 2020, iOS accounted for over 50% of the smartphone OS market in the US.

• Smartphone OS U.S. market share 2020 | Statista

If Sony says you can't publish something, you're not automatically locked out of 50% of the gaming market. If Apple says no, you are automatically locked out of ~50% of the market, with only one other OS as an option.

 

[deevey]

What your hypothetical is missing is that in reality there are thousands of other flea markets to shop at besides yours. With the smartphone scenario there are only two “flea markets”, iOS and Android. A duopoly is subject to anti-trust laws as well, not just monopolies. Additionally, in your example all of the land (phone OS) is already owned by Apple and Google so there’s nowhere else available for people to sell their wares (apps).

Don't forget Harmony OS ... it WILL be a massive market.

 

[deevey]

Cydia isn't just for pirated apps. I think it's time that people be allowed to jailbreak without Apple condemning you. If you break a screen, you shouldn't be told you can't get it fixed because you wanted to jailbreak. Battery replacement shouldn't come with the requirement that your iOS be untouched.

If Apple wanted us to just rent these devices, they should tell us. Yes, it's their software but if a jailbreak mistake isn't causing the problem with the customer, why are they going to deny people who pay for AppleCare+ any repairs?

It's already penalizing you if you use an unauthorized shop, so how isn't this an unfair monopoly?

On that note: Android manufacturers locking down bootloaders makes me just as pissed.

If the power management systems have been bypassed and battery is somehow compromised by unknown modifications to the OS, you think Apple should cover it?

Hell, having a third party dash-cam installed voids the warranty on some cars.