What Jobs and his henchmen didn't want to realize when they started to whole Intel/Bootcamp landslide in 2006/2007, was that they would get a whole new set of costumers. Customers that where used to update parts of their hardware, at will, to increase performace of their rig. I honestly think that this uproar is somewhat of a suprise for the people at Apple. I bought an Apple Mac Pro last year, and I'm as pissed as anybody here at the forum, but I can't see any other solution but to build a PC-rig with the graphics card at your liking. My Mac Pro will continue to handle CPU instensive tasks but as a gaming platform it will allways suck plenty...
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Upgrading old Mac Pro to 8800 GT graphics?
- Thread starter Fezzy
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I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I'm not a fatalist. I don't settle. I can easily take my money elsewhere. However, I do agree with your entry. But when I buy a system of this caliber, there is no reason to have that ability to make hardware upgrades. Why spend $3,000+ on a machine just to upgrade the operating system.
I totally respect that, and I hope Apple's attention to these sorts of details improve. but I'm over it at this point - I'd rather have a Mac Pro over a PC with a flavor of the month video card, because the stuff I do is not GPU intensive with the exception of gaming.
Ideally of course we'd have a Mac Pro with 12-month (or better) updates on the GPU.
You forget that 950 of those people (I was one of them) signed that petition before we knew there would be a solution. 50 odd people, still want to be outraged (this is a guestimate, and not to be taken seriously).
I'd actually like more frequent updates of Mac Pro video cards, but to those of you coming from the PC world, It's just not going to happen that often. Unlike the PC world, where driver development is free, it costs Apple every time they have to support a new card and pay for the development of Mac specific drivers. It is unreasonable to expect Apple to duplicate the PC environment specifically for the very few people that mistakenly buy a Mac Pro system thinking that it might be a good gaming machine.
Look, I'm as PO'd as the next guy about Apple dropping the ball on the 8800GT and I'm hoping they will come thru, but to say that the 07 MP sucks plenty as a gaming platform is just not true. My MP has the X1900XT and can run COD4 at its highest settings on my 1680x1050 screen. For me, as of this moment the X1900XT does fine in terms of performance, however it has been shows to be an unreliable flawed product. It will be nice to have the 8800GT to replace the X1900XT that will carry us forward into the future.
However, I don't understand most PC gamer's mentality that must have the latest of everything, even if in reality they can't see a difference in actual gameplay, but only in benchmark numbers.
We all would love that option to have a new video card on a yearly basis. Your below quote is slightly off. Here's my point. Apple is already marketing the 2008 Mac Pro to be a gaming machine in addition with it being a workstation.
See..http://www.apple.com/games/hardware/ I know this link lists the 2008 8 Core. but the 2006 Quad was originally in its place on this link as the "The Ultimate Gamer".
As for us getting a 8800 card, not happening. I think it will be a 9XXX series card, and it might have both EFI 32/64. I would expect to see it in late March or early April.
See..http://www.apple.com/games/hardware/ I know this link lists the 2008 8 Core. but the 2006 Quad was originally in its place on this link as the "The Ultimate Gamer".
As for us getting a 8800 card, not happening. I think it will be a 9XXX series card, and it might have both EFI 32/64. I would expect to see it in late March or early April.
Colossus, I can't argue with you there. You're quite right. But it doesn't change the fact that there will never be as many video cards available to Apple systems as there are for PCs. And the reason is that the drivers have to be Mac specific, and the Mac market isn't big enough for the two main players to write them spontaneously. Blackadder is right about the G5 version of the 1900, but ATI only sold it after Apple had already paid them to write Mac drivers for it.
It's one of the big disadvantages of running a system that is not the mainstream one. The advantages for most people, such as a better and more reliable operating system and (so far) relative freedom from malware and virii, and the accompanying slowdown from compensating software, makes it a no brainer for non-gamers. That's not to say it's not a great gaming platform, just that it will always lag behind the sharp end of the PC graphics curve, and sometimes by a wide margin.
I hope you're right about the 9XXX card, that would be a welcome surprise, but I'm not holding my breath. Like you, I don't expect anything until early April.
That would be an unprecedented move from Apple, but possible I suppose given that the 8800GT is being EOL'd in favor of 9xxx cards. But Apple has no problems selling something long after it's gone from the PC world...just look at ATI's Radeon 9200 PCI Mac Edition.
You are quite right. Here reminiscing when the Mac Clone (UMAX) was sitting on my desk and I had more upgrade options than the real Mac. That day is long gone.
I also agree with Blackadder.
I still have my opinion who dropped the ball when it comes to this whole lack of a new video card option dilemma. At this point getting raddled over this is getting tiring. Let's see what late March or early April brings us. I'm still not hold my breath.
I also agree with Blackadder.
I still have my opinion who dropped the ball when it comes to this whole lack of a new video card option dilemma. At this point getting raddled over this is getting tiring. Let's see what late March or early April brings us. I'm still not hold my breath.
I can't argue there. We can spend all day on this one. Like I said earlier I'm not hold my breath. I have a feeling we might be jettisoned without an updated card option.
That would be an unprecedented move from Apple, but possible I suppose given that the 8800GT is being EOL'd in favor of 9xxx cards. But Apple has no problems selling something long after it's gone from the PC world...just look at ATI's Radeon 9200 PCI Mac Edition.
Apple ultimately bears responsibility for this - it's very true that GPU development is cheaper and easier on the PC, so we'll never see the cornucopia of video cards on offer for Windows users. But we don't need that many options - a couple additional cards and somewhat faster product updates would probably satisfy just about everyone.
But ATI and Nvidia are not willing to absorb the necessary development costs...so the ball is in Apple's court. As long as they simply take what the GPU companies offer we will be stuck with this two-card, 18-month update cycle paradigm. And unfortunately I don't see it changing unless something changes within Apple.
The Windows gaming market is lucrative, and it makes sense for ATI and Nvidia to maintain a high tempo of driver development for that platform. No such market exists on the Mac. Yet.
But ATI and Nvidia are not willing to absorb the necessary development costs...so the ball is in Apple's court. As long as they simply take what the GPU companies offer we will be stuck with this two-card, 18-month update cycle paradigm. And unfortunately I don't see it changing unless something changes within Apple.
The Windows gaming market is lucrative, and it makes sense for ATI and Nvidia to maintain a high tempo of driver development for that platform. No such market exists on the Mac. Yet.
That would be an unprecedented move from Apple, but possible I suppose given that the 8800GT is being EOL'd in favor of 9xxx cards. But Apple has no problems selling something long after it's gone from the PC world...just look at ATI's Radeon 9200 PCI Mac Edition.
Blackadder, I don't think Apple actually sells the PCI 9200, I think that's just down to ATI. And I believe they stopped making it some time ago and retailers are just shifting old stock. But point taken and agreed.
Also agreed. Hopefully one of the advantages of increasing market share is that we might see more effort from ATI and Nvidia, so we might not have to depend purely on Apple's economic calculations so much in the future.
Seconded.
As for gamers' mentality, the gamer demographic is overwhelmingly young male, and as such, exhibits that variety of OCD that prompts other young males to pour all their resources into their cars, model trains, or hi-fi systems. The phenomena of boutique RAM connoisseurs, where certain PC gamers obsess over a RAM module's pedigree and production batch as if they were discussing fine cognac is an extreme example of this behavior.
Where is that petition? I want to sign it. And if nothing is done, my next mac is going to be a hackintosh.
True, though my point was mostly that Apple never lit a fire under ATI's (or Nvidia's) butt to replace the 9200, and it died quietly after having remained on sale when it was almost four generations old. The arrival of PCIe obviated the need for a new PCI card but the 9200 was old when it died, even by the most conservative standards.
Apple again...as yet it seems that Apple, Nvidia and ATI are tossing around the concept of investing in more GPU development like a hot potato. One of them needs to step up, and since it's Apple's platform they're the logical choice.
The difference between that situation and today's Mac Pro GPU snafu is the original Powermac G5's had AGP gfx cards. The first 2 and a half years or so of Powermac G5 production were machines with AGP and only about the last year or so of G5 production were PCIe models. That entire market was hopelessly fractured between the two standards which are not physically or electrically compatible. The new 2008 Mac Pro uses PCIe 2.x and the old ones use PCIe 1.x. This means if a card for the 2008 MP's was not to work in the older MP's it would almost have to be intentional for them not to work. That is why so many people are upset.
I may be mistaken but in the past (PowerPC times) Apple generally didn't offer graphics card upgrades after the point of sale. The only exceptions were when they were actually required in order to run the 30" Cinema display Then they sold the NVIDIA 6800Ultra and later GT as kits. My understanding is that NVIDIA supply their source code to Apple who write NVIDIA drivers for the Mac.
ATI used to sell after market upgrade cards for G3, G4 and then G5 models. I believe this was possible as ATI had a small Mac team that would write drivers and later on software like ATI Displays. They obviously thought it made business sense and that there were enough G3/G4 and G5 owners to cover the costs.
This seems to have changed since the Intel switch and the AMD purchase of ATI. We now only see ATI cards as OEM products for Apple and the ATI displays software is not offered for the Intel Macs (despite the latest version actually being a universal binary).
I believe the reason Apple offered the X1900XT as a kit is most likely because the 7300GT could not run two 30" Cinema displays. The other possible reason is to help sales of Aperture or Motion.
I really hope AMD/ATI decide to offer retail products again as it is very frustrating if the only cards you have over the life of your machine is just the original options.
As has been mentioned we don't really need loads of choices just a solid performer for the games and GPU intensive software over the useful life of the particular Mac.
ATI used to sell after market upgrade cards for G3, G4 and then G5 models. I believe this was possible as ATI had a small Mac team that would write drivers and later on software like ATI Displays. They obviously thought it made business sense and that there were enough G3/G4 and G5 owners to cover the costs.
This seems to have changed since the Intel switch and the AMD purchase of ATI. We now only see ATI cards as OEM products for Apple and the ATI displays software is not offered for the Intel Macs (despite the latest version actually being a universal binary).
I believe the reason Apple offered the X1900XT as a kit is most likely because the 7300GT could not run two 30" Cinema displays. The other possible reason is to help sales of Aperture or Motion.
I really hope AMD/ATI decide to offer retail products again as it is very frustrating if the only cards you have over the life of your machine is just the original options.
As has been mentioned we don't really need loads of choices just a solid performer for the games and GPU intensive software over the useful life of the particular Mac.
For a computer company that brags so much about its media capabilities, apple sure is doing an incredibly shameful job at exaggerating such a loose fact.
[G5]Hydra;5029247 said:
Yes, but the silly thing about the 7800GT scenario is that Apple already was making and selling the exact card people were asking for...but as BTO-only. They could have simply told the fabricator to make more 7800GTs and sold them as kits. But they didn't.
So if anything the 7800GT fiasco was even worse than today's issue.
Yup, but how about ONE upgrade, at least ;-) I'd be happy with one, so that I can extend my PROs useful life another 2 years, after which the march of progress will have made it obsolete anyway..
If anything, this whole fiasco taught me I was a fool to buy a tower in the hopes it'd be upgradable where it mattered. I'll stick with the cheaper all in ones (Imac types) next time around. Apple may not realize that they turned off a bunch of buyers from future $$$ machines by doing this and making us wait and wait for a card that may or may not arrive (and for which they can charge more because of the required apple ROM thing)
I feel the same way. But I do love the power of the Mac Pro in working with Aperture. At this point, I'm actually considering going back to a high end PC and switching to Lightroom, even though I hate Windoze.
There is a disconnect at Apple IMO, where the software programmers love to tap into the power of graphics cards, but the hardware guys cripple the top end Macs with few and relatively meager choices compared to high end PC's, and then don't allow upgrades when newer cards are made available by the graphic card suppliers. It's just absurd to me.